Re: [PyQt] PyQt4.Qtcore defines 'hex'
Phil Thompson wrote: On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 14:19:50 -0500, Neal Becker ndbeck...@gmail.com wrote: A bit nasty, since I see (and follow) lots of examples that say: from PyQt4.QtCore import * This redefines the builtin hex. Check the Roadmap. Appending a _ just to make an unpleasant style of programming work seems like a pretty silly idea. I, along with everyone else who's tryng to learn a new python package, absolutely *hate* from x import * as it makes it much more difficult figure out where something is coming from. I did raise this with David when this very issue tripped me and a number of other people up at the PyConUK tutorial last year. If this were done sanely, you'd likely have: from PyQt4.QtCore import hex ...somewhere, which, if it's causing problems, can easilly be changed to: from PyQt4.QtCore import hex as qt_hex Or, if you don't want do have a load of import statements, you can use the style that xlrd seems to prefer: from PyQt4 import QtCore ... QtCore.hex(...) Either way, you end up knowing where stuff if coming from... cheers, Chris (who's still putting off using PyQt as he's dreading fighting his way through a load of *'s) -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ PyQt mailing listPyQt@riverbankcomputing.com http://www.riverbankcomputing.com/mailman/listinfo/pyqt
Re: [PyQt] PyQt4.Qtcore defines 'hex'
On mer, 2009-01-07 at 09:26 +, Chris Withers wrote: Phil Thompson wrote: On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 14:19:50 -0500, Neal Becker ndbeck...@gmail.com wrote: A bit nasty, since I see (and follow) lots of examples that say: from PyQt4.QtCore import * This redefines the builtin hex. Check the Roadmap. Appending a _ just to make an unpleasant style of programming work seems like a pretty silly idea. I, along with everyone else who's tryng to learn a new python package, absolutely *hate* from x import * as it makes it much more difficult figure out where something is coming from. So don't use it. This has been discussed thousands of times and it starts getting annoying. There are many people (including myself and all our customers) that simply love using star-imports with PyQt, since the leading Q* on most symbols is already a clear enough indication of where the symbol is coming from. Appending the underscore to those symbols is a perfect fix IMO. I don't see why people that don't use star-imports in the first place should care about it at all. -- Giovanni Bajo Develer S.r.l. http://www.develer.com ___ PyQt mailing listPyQt@riverbankcomputing.com http://www.riverbankcomputing.com/mailman/listinfo/pyqt
Re: [PyQt] PyQt4.Qtcore defines 'hex'
Phil Thompson wrote: This has been discussed thousands of times and it starts getting annoying. Yes, it is annoying that all the example code continues to be in a form that confuses users trying to learn PyQt. *None* of the PyQt4 examples uses star imports. Hmmm, apologies then, must have been exclusively a problem with Mark Summerfield's tutorial stuff. (and in my previous mail when I said David I actually meant Mark, happy new year ;-) ) FWIW, I still think sticking a _ on the end of the name is silly... cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ PyQt mailing listPyQt@riverbankcomputing.com http://www.riverbankcomputing.com/mailman/listinfo/pyqt
Re: [PyQt] PyQt4.Qtcore defines 'hex'
On mer, 2009-01-07 at 10:33 +, Chris Withers wrote: However, like most people, I learn by example, and when the examples contain exclusively start imports, they are much less helpful than they could be. I don't understand you. Are you really saying that it's harder to understand that QListBox or QVariant is part of PyQt4 because it's not prefixed by QtGui. or QtCore.? -- Giovanni Bajo Develer S.r.l. http://www.develer.com ___ PyQt mailing listPyQt@riverbankcomputing.com http://www.riverbankcomputing.com/mailman/listinfo/pyqt
Re: [PyQt] PyQt4.Qtcore defines 'hex'
* Giovanni Bajo [Wed, 07 Jan 2009 11:06:09 +0100]: Appending the underscore to those symbols is a perfect fix IMO. I realize this is a matter of preference, but I'd suggest using qbin() and qhex() rather than the underscore: I think it makes more sense for stuff that can be imported into the global namespace (as opposed to stuff as exec_() that can only be attached to an object). If you see in the middle of a program hex_(foo), you may wonder where that came from, whereas qhex(foo) is going to be rather obvious. Of course, do what you think it's best. :-) -- Adeodato Simó dato at net.com.org.es Debian Developer adeodato at debian.org - I love you, Shirley, I'm not ashamed to say. - If you love me, then you'll want me to be happy. Even if I'm not with you. - I don't love you that much. -- Denny Crane and Shirley Schmidt ___ PyQt mailing listPyQt@riverbankcomputing.com http://www.riverbankcomputing.com/mailman/listinfo/pyqt
Re: [PyQt] PyQt4.Qtcore defines 'hex'
On Wed, 07 Jan 2009 10:33:00 +, Chris Withers ch...@simplistix.co.uk wrote: Giovanni Bajo wrote: On mer, 2009-01-07 at 09:26 +, Chris Withers wrote: Phil Thompson wrote: On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 14:19:50 -0500, Neal Becker ndbeck...@gmail.com wrote: A bit nasty, since I see (and follow) lots of examples that say: from PyQt4.QtCore import * This redefines the builtin hex. Check the Roadmap. Appending a _ just to make an unpleasant style of programming work seems like a pretty silly idea. I, along with everyone else who's tryng to learn a new python package, absolutely *hate* from x import * as it makes it much more difficult figure out where something is coming from. So don't use it. You rather miss my point. I don't ever use star imports anyway. However, like most people, I learn by example, and when the examples contain exclusively start imports, they are much less helpful than they could be. It's a shame PEP8 doesn't make a pronouncement on this. PEP 328 is pretty clear though... This has been discussed thousands of times and it starts getting annoying. Yes, it is annoying that all the example code continues to be in a form that confuses users trying to learn PyQt. *None* of the PyQt4 examples uses star imports. Phil ___ PyQt mailing listPyQt@riverbankcomputing.com http://www.riverbankcomputing.com/mailman/listinfo/pyqt
Re: [PyQt] PyQt4.Qtcore defines 'hex'
Giovanni Bajo wrote: On mer, 2009-01-07 at 09:26 +, Chris Withers wrote: Phil Thompson wrote: On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 14:19:50 -0500, Neal Becker ndbeck...@gmail.com wrote: A bit nasty, since I see (and follow) lots of examples that say: from PyQt4.QtCore import * This redefines the builtin hex. Check the Roadmap. Appending a _ just to make an unpleasant style of programming work seems like a pretty silly idea. I, along with everyone else who's tryng to learn a new python package, absolutely *hate* from x import * as it makes it much more difficult figure out where something is coming from. So don't use it. You rather miss my point. I don't ever use star imports anyway. However, like most people, I learn by example, and when the examples contain exclusively start imports, they are much less helpful than they could be. It's a shame PEP8 doesn't make a pronouncement on this. PEP 328 is pretty clear though... This has been discussed thousands of times and it starts getting annoying. Yes, it is annoying that all the example code continues to be in a form that confuses users trying to learn PyQt. There are many people (including myself and all our customers) that simply love using star-imports with PyQt, since the leading Q* on most symbols is already a clear enough indication of where the symbol is coming from. What you and/or your customers do in the privacy of your own homes and offices is none of my concern ;-) Appending the underscore to those symbols is a perfect fix IMO. I don't see why people that don't use star-imports in the first place should care about it at all. Because it looks butt ugly for no reason. cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ PyQt mailing listPyQt@riverbankcomputing.com http://www.riverbankcomputing.com/mailman/listinfo/pyqt
Re: [PyQt] PyQt4.Qtcore defines 'hex'
Neal Becker wrote: If the pyqt examples did not use *, and if you could import a useful enough subset without doing that, I'd agree. If the suggestion is to explicitly qualify everything, I don't think that's reasonable. Yes, python, well know for believing that implicit is better than explicit ;-) Chris . o O ( import this ) -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ PyQt mailing listPyQt@riverbankcomputing.com http://www.riverbankcomputing.com/mailman/listinfo/pyqt
Re: [PyQt] PyQt4.Qtcore defines 'hex'
On 2009-01-07, Chris Withers wrote: Phil Thompson wrote: This has been discussed thousands of times and it starts getting annoying. Yes, it is annoying that all the example code continues to be in a form that confuses users trying to learn PyQt. *None* of the PyQt4 examples uses star imports. Hmmm, apologies then, must have been exclusively a problem with Mark Summerfield's tutorial stuff. I have now switched to a new style for imports, for example: from PyQt4.QtCore import (PYQT_VERSION_STR, QFile, QFileInfo, QSettings, QString, QT_VERSION_STR, QTimer, QVariant, Qt, SIGNAL) from PyQt4.QtGui import (QAction, QActionGroup, QApplication, QDockWidget, QFileDialog, QFrame, QIcon, QImage, QImageReader, QImageWriter, QInputDialog, QKeySequence, QLabel, QListWidget, QMainWindow, QMessageBox, QPainter, QPixmap, QPrintDialog, QPrinter, QSpinBox) This avoids importing confusing junk while still allowing you to write nice things like: action = QAction(Action) The disadvantage is that you keep having to extend the lists of imports as you develop and maintain your code. I don't want to change this for the book's examples because I want them to exactly match the text---although actually, the only change is to the imports, the use of the classes is unchanged. However I've done a separate set of Python 2.6 versions of the examples and these use the new import style. FWIW, I still think sticking a _ on the end of the name is silly... Yes, but it has precedents in PyQt already, e.g. QApplication.exec_(). (and in my previous mail when I said David I actually meant Mark, happy new year ;-) ) Understandable since David is a much more regular poster than I am:-) -- Mark Summerfield, Qtrac Ltd, www.qtrac.eu C++, Python, Qt, PyQt - training and consultancy Programming in Python 3 - ISBN 0137129297 ___ PyQt mailing listPyQt@riverbankcomputing.com http://www.riverbankcomputing.com/mailman/listinfo/pyqt
Re: [PyQt] PyQt4.Qtcore defines 'hex'
Adeodato Simó wrote: If you see in the middle of a program hex_(foo), you may wonder where that came from, whereas qhex(foo) is going to be rather obvious. Greetings all, Might I humbly second this motion? I do understand the usual reservations about star-imports (being the kind of guy that often gets to debug other people's work...), but I also do appreciate the relative ease of getting away with it in PyQt's case, thanks to the prevalence of the Q prefix in its class names and its relative absence of module-level functions. With this in mind, using the same prefix for the three problematic functions makes good sense to me. Are there reservations about this approach that I may not be aware of? Ta, -- S. ___ PyQt mailing listPyQt@riverbankcomputing.com http://www.riverbankcomputing.com/mailman/listinfo/pyqt
Re: [PyQt] PyQt4.Qtcore defines 'hex'
On Wednesday 07 January 2009 05:27:06 am Sundance wrote: Adeodato Simó wrote: If you see in the middle of a program hex_(foo), you may wonder where that came from, whereas qhex(foo) is going to be rather obvious. Greetings all, Might I humbly second this motion? I do understand the usual reservations about star-imports (being the kind of guy that often gets to debug other people's work...), but I also do appreciate the relative ease of getting away with it in PyQt's case, thanks to the prevalence of the Q prefix in its class names and its relative absence of module-level functions. With this in mind, using the same prefix for the three problematic functions makes good sense to me. Are there reservations about this approach that I may not be aware of? One problem I'd see is that 'qhex' doesn't sort alphabetically the same as 'hex' or 'hex_' does. Also, other bindings - like PyKDE - have the same problem. In the case of PyKDE, it's in a lot more than three places. That makes it a lot harder for people to find it in the docs, especially if they're coming from or reconciling with Qt or KDE docs and method names. The 'q*' convention doesn't make a lot of sense for other bindings packages, and the underscore seems less likely to clash with other people's naming schemes, although in the case of PyQt a clash seems to have a fairly low probability either way. As to the ugliness factor, I somewhat agree, but then we're talking about a language that uses things like __init__ or __main__ all over the place. As to '*' imports - having done a lot of C/C++ where you have to declare every variable, declaring objects in an import statement isn't that difficult. And IIRC, PyKDE4 inherits name clashes between modules from KDE itself in a couple of places. Jim ___ PyQt mailing listPyQt@riverbankcomputing.com http://www.riverbankcomputing.com/mailman/listinfo/pyqt
[PyQt] PyQt4.Qtcore defines 'hex'
A bit nasty, since I see (and follow) lots of examples that say: from PyQt4.QtCore import * This redefines the builtin hex. ___ PyQt mailing listPyQt@riverbankcomputing.com http://www.riverbankcomputing.com/mailman/listinfo/pyqt
Re: [PyQt] PyQt4.Qtcore defines 'hex'
On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 14:19:50 -0500, Neal Becker ndbeck...@gmail.com wrote: A bit nasty, since I see (and follow) lots of examples that say: from PyQt4.QtCore import * This redefines the builtin hex. Check the Roadmap. Phil ___ PyQt mailing listPyQt@riverbankcomputing.com http://www.riverbankcomputing.com/mailman/listinfo/pyqt
Re: [PyQt] PyQt4.Qtcore defines 'hex'
On Tue Jan 6 22:05:41 GMT 2009, Phil Thompson wrote: On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 14:19:50 -0500, Neal Becker ndbecker2 at gmail.com This redefines the builtin hex. Check the Roadmap. http://www.riverbankcomputing.com/software/pyqt/roadmap ...for those not following the site updates so closely. :-) David ___ PyQt mailing listPyQt@riverbankcomputing.com http://www.riverbankcomputing.com/mailman/listinfo/pyqt
