[issue34694] Dismiss To Avoid Slave/Master wording cause it easier for non English spoken programmers

[Matthew Barnett]

Change by Matthew Barnett :


--
nosy:  -mrabarnett

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[issue34694] Dismiss To Avoid Slave/Master wording cause it easier for non English spoken programmers

[Paul Moore]

Change by Paul Moore :


--
nosy:  -paul.moore

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[issue34694] Dismiss To Avoid Slave/Master wording cause it easier for non English spoken programmers

[Kubilay Kocak]

Change by Kubilay Kocak :


--
nosy:  -koobs

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[issue34694] Dismiss To Avoid Slave/Master wording cause it easier for non English spoken programmers

[Socob]

Change by Socob <206a8...@opayq.com>:


--
nosy: +Socob

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[issue34694] Dismiss To Avoid Slave/Master wording cause it easier for non English spoken programmers

[Jose Angel Acosta]

Jose Angel Acosta  added the comment:

I'm so sorry to see my proposal just derived in personal attacks.
The problem here is the core who  "owns" python, admited a change to the 
Language documentation on whats should be considered a political or cultural 
bias w/o considering the broad community OPINION, I wont name it irresponsible 
but fairly disconnected with the purpose of OpenSource: freedom as on free 
speech, which is something being censored by latest core's commit on suggestion 
based on political or cultural bias, not code usability.
In other instances or communities it should have been enough to ask for the 
resignation of those that allowed this distortion introduced into the project 
-owned by the community, not the core approving commits-.

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[issue34694] Dismiss To Avoid Slave/Master wording cause it easier for non English spoken programmers

[Steve Dower]

Change by Steve Dower :


--
nosy:  -steve.dower

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[issue34694] Dismiss To Avoid Slave/Master wording cause it easier for non English spoken programmers

[Gabriel Marko]

Gabriel Marko  added the comment:

@Larry and Terry:

I want to stay out of this discussion or participation on Python development 
for the future as I've expressed it elsewhere 
(https://bugs.python.org/issue34660#msg325515). However, I want to address the 
unfair treatment of my person and what I consider to be a violation of CoC in 
the previous comment (https://bugs.python.org/issue34694#msg325802).

> We have been and will be attacked from extremists on both sides if consider 
> changes on a case-by-case basis, accepting some and rejecting others.
> We have been and will be attacked from extremists on both sides for 
> considering changes on a case-by-case basis, accepting some and rejecting 
> others.

Labeling people as "extremists" without justification is _ad hominem_ and can 
be considered to be a personal attack. The term "extremism" has strong negative 
connotations and it's often related to "calling for violent action". The 
comment doesn't make clear neither 1) who or what group of people is meant to 
be extremist here nor 2) what was considered to be extremist. 

In general _ad hominem_ arguments and attacking someones reputation are not 
part of civil and rational argumentation/discourse. As far as I understand this 
isn't compliant with the Code of Conduct either. 

> Marko called our actions 'madness' and here called us 'irresponsible'.

I find this unfair and a misrepresentation of what I wrote:

> I find this behavior from the Python core developers and representatives 
> simply irresponsible. (https://bugs.python.org/msg325499)

I explicitly referred to _behavior being irresponsible_ not the people. Even 
responsible people can have sometimes irresponsible decisions or behaviour. I 
also explained what I'd meant by "madness" (see here: 
https://bugs.python.org/issue34660#msg325503). And as I've already said 
elswhere:

> I can completely agree that I shouldn't/mustn't make sarcastic comments. 
> (https://bugs.python.org/issue34660#msg325515)

I also agree with Larry that sarcasm isn't the best strategy :) However, 
silencing discussions like this "There will be no further discussion about 
this." (https://bugs.python.org/issue34694#msg325437) isn't a good strategy 
either. 

I don't want to be involved into further discussion and I politely ask you to 
not refer to me or labeling me.

Thank you,

Gabriel

--
nosy: +suic

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[issue34694] Dismiss To Avoid Slave/Master wording cause it easier for non English spoken programmers

[Gabriel Marko]

Change by Gabriel Marko :


--
nosy:  -suic

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[issue34694] Dismiss To Avoid Slave/Master wording cause it easier for non English spoken programmers

[Zachary Ware]

Change by Zachary Ware :


--
assignee: docs@python -> 
nosy:  -docs@python, zach.ware

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[issue34694] Dismiss To Avoid Slave/Master wording cause it easier for non English spoken programmers

[Terry J. Reedy]

Change by Terry J. Reedy :


--
nosy:  -terry.reedy

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[issue34694] Dismiss To Avoid Slave/Master wording cause it easier for non English spoken programmers

[Terry J. Reedy]

Terry J. Reedy  added the comment:

If this issue were not to be immediately closed, then cleaning the components 
and nosy lists should have been the first response.

I was tempted to do the latter now, to cut short the cavalcade of un-nosy 
emails, but anticipated that someone would object.  But I will remove myself 
again after this post.

Larry: Victor's recent issue and action pulled us further into a verbally 
violent and occasionally physically violent American Cultural war.  The result 
has already been pretty ugly.  We have been and will be attacked from 
extremists on both sides if consider changes on a case-by-case basis, accepting 
some and rejecting others.  I don't want the tracker ruined as a usable 
workspace.

We have been and will be attacked from extremists on both sides for considering 
changes on a case-by-case basis, accepting some and rejecting others.  On 
#34660, Raymond Hettinger merged one PR and I reviewed the other.  Marko called 
our actions 'madness' and here called us 'irresponsible'.  On the other hand, 
the OP criticized me for wanting change and huffed away with the claim that 
like it or not, we will somehow eventually be *forced* to change (as he 
wishes).  I do not volunteer for this sort of treatment.

--
nosy: +terry.reedy

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[issue34694] Dismiss To Avoid Slave/Master wording cause it easier for non English spoken programmers

[Terry J. Reedy]

Change by Terry J. Reedy :


--
nosy:  -terry.reedy

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[issue34694] Dismiss To Avoid Slave/Master wording cause it easier for non English spoken programmers

[Barry A. Warsaw]

Change by Barry A. Warsaw :


--
nosy:  -barry

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[issue34694] Dismiss To Avoid Slave/Master wording cause it easier for non English spoken programmers

[Serhiy Storchaka]

Change by Serhiy Storchaka :


--
nosy:  -serhiy.storchaka

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[issue34694] Dismiss To Avoid Slave/Master wording cause it easier for non English spoken programmers

[STINNER Victor]

Change by STINNER Victor :


--
nosy:  -vstinner

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[issue34694] Dismiss To Avoid Slave/Master wording cause it easier for non English spoken programmers

[Yury Selivanov]

Change by Yury Selivanov :


--
nosy:  -yselivanov

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[issue34694] Dismiss To Avoid Slave/Master wording cause it easier for non English spoken programmers

[Yury Selivanov]

Yury Selivanov  added the comment:

> I think the idea here is: don’t feed the trolls.

+1.  Please stop this.

Larry, IMHO, if you seriously want to discuss this issue (and bring more 
attention to it) I think you should email to python-commiters.  Otherwise this 
is just a pointless distraction to those of us who ended up randomly added to 
the nosy list and have no interest in this topic.

A restricted (but open) mailing list to discuss controversial topics like this 
is a common practice.

> But I don't understand how that translates into CPython issue tracker policy.

Selecting all "components" and adding random people to the nosy list goes 
pretty much against the issue tracker policy.  It should have been closed right 
from the beginning, because the person who opened it used the wrong medium to 
convey their message to begin with.

P.S. Please don't add me to the nosy list.

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[issue34694] Dismiss To Avoid Slave/Master wording cause it easier for non English spoken programmers

[Larry Hastings]

Larry Hastings  added the comment:

@eric.araujo:
> I think the idea here is: don’t feed the trolls.

I understand this as a general-purpose metaphor.  But I don't understand how 
that translates into CPython issue tracker policy.  And so far I wouldn't 
describe anybody corresponding on this issue as "trolling".  Did I miss 
something?

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[issue34694] Dismiss To Avoid Slave/Master wording cause it easier for non English spoken programmers

[Éric Araujo]

Éric Araujo  added the comment:

I think the idea here is: don’t feed the trolls.

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[issue34694] Dismiss To Avoid Slave/Master wording cause it easier for non English spoken programmers

[Larry Hastings]

Larry Hastings  added the comment:

@Mariatta:
> There will be no further discussion about this.

Mariatta, why do you say that?  As long as the participants in the discussion 
are respectful I'm not aware of any mechanism in the CPython developer 
guidelines that would require shutting down the discussion.


@terry.reedy:
> The purpose of the tracker is to facilitate patches to the CPython code and 
> docs.

I'm pretty sure the issue tracker gets used for more than strictly facilitating 
patches.  And TBH this conversation got a little toxic in other areas online.  
I don't think it's hurting anything to have a quiet discussion about it here on 
the issue tracker.


>  Insults so not solve issues.  [...]  Please consider this a warning and 
> don't repeat.

I agree that insults are bad, and I too hope that nobody engages in being 
insulting.  But I read Gabriel's post twice and I don't see where he insulted 
anybody.  I found his remarks aggressive and a bit sarcastic, sure.  But not 
"insulting".  Can you be specific--what was the remark where he insulted 
somebody?

Gabriel, I agree that you should try to curb your more inflammatory tendencies 
in your correspondence.  But that's as much a tactical suggestion as it is a 
CoC reminder.  I assume that your point in writing is to win people over to 
your point of view--and that's best achieved by being reasonable and making 
good points.  As the old saying goes, "you'll attract more flies with honey 
than with vinegar".

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[issue34694] Dismiss To Avoid Slave/Master wording cause it easier for non English spoken programmers

[R. David Murray]

Change by R. David Murray :


--
nosy:  -r.david.murray

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[issue34694] Dismiss To Avoid Slave/Master wording cause it easier for non English spoken programmers

[Terry J. Reedy]

Terry J. Reedy  added the comment:

Jose: The purpose of the tracker is to facilitate patches to the CPython code 
and docs.  Your post and personal perspective (with 'srecentrly uddenly' 
corrected),though related, belongs elsewhere, such as python-list.

Gabriel: Insults so not solve issues.  Rather they discourage people from 
volunteering to improve Python.  They are a violation of the Code of Conduct.  
Please consider this a warning and don't repeat.

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Cross-Build, Demos and Tools, Distutils, Documentation, Extension Modules, 
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[issue34694] Dismiss To Avoid Slave/Master wording cause it easier for non English spoken programmers

[Gabriel Marko]

Gabriel Marko  added the comment:

@Mariatta:

> There will be no further discussion about this.

Repeating this over and over again won't solve the (any) issue. This madness 
reached another level here: https://bugs.python.org/issue34660. That was 
exactly my point here: https://bugs.python.org/issue34605#msg324825. 
But let me guess: There will no (further) discussion about that 
either. 

I find this behavior from the Python core developers and representatives simply 
irresponsible.

--
nosy: +suic

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[issue34694] Dismiss To Avoid Slave/Master wording cause it easier for non English spoken programmers

[Mariatta Wijaya]

Mariatta Wijaya  added the comment:

There will be no further discussion about this.

--
nosy: +Mariatta
resolution:  -> wont fix
stage:  -> resolved
status: open -> closed

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[issue34694] Dismiss To Avoid Slave/Master wording cause it easier for non English spoken programmers

[Serhiy Storchaka]

Serhiy Storchaka  added the comment:

Do you have any concrete propositions?

--
nosy: +serhiy.storchaka

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[issue34694] Dismiss To Avoid Slave/Master wording cause it easier for non English spoken programmers

[Jose Angel Acosta]

New submission from Jose Angel Acosta :

A request have been srecentrly uddenly committed to avoid Slave/Master wording 
in python code, I think the "issue"was not enough peer-reviewed, me having 
slave roots from my african and jewish heritage I dont consider this matter an 
Issue, but the Wording Slave/Master widely used to depict component 
relationship is better for understanding the purpose of the component relation 
than the non-traditional wording schemes as Parent/Worker, specially for those 
being non-native English readers the change has issues on code readability 
specially for non-English readers.

Simple, its much easier to understand the meaning of Slave/Master relationship 
in device functionality than Worker/Helper, I consider the whole issue as an 
intrusion of the "politically correct" puritanism in areas where is not 
required.

The main force behind Python success is CODE READABILITY, not  political 
rightfulness, this should be stopped here,Python itself the language name its 
an word which remembers snakes a creature considered impure by both 
Jew/Islamic/Christian religions, by appling the same political rightfulness 
code to this, Python language should be renamed to something non-offensive to 
Jew/Islamic/Christians as Bunny, (and this at least doesnt affect language 
readbility, since "run bunny code" vs "run python code" its easier to 
understand than "Process Master delegate X Data to Slave process" vs "Parent 
process Delegate X Data to Worker Process", the later meaning is not as easy to 
understand, since Parent can be translated in N ways across different 
languages, I.E. Spanish: Parent could means mother, father, cause while Worker 
just means Worker (not intrinsically related to cause or mother).

I think the python language should be kept from explicitly offensive wordings 
not those "niche" offensive wordings when the whole language is named after an 
animal that is offensive on most cultures (And its not a problem), the same 
naming process slave/master doesn't denote support to slavery, are just words 
that its more easy to understand its meaning (given its more uniform) across 
multiple human languages.

I consider the voting mechanism should consider polls among programmers before 
commit matters like this in the future, which respectfully I consider 
ridiculous and I said it with respect to my slave ancestors.

--
assignee: docs@python
components: 2to3 (2.x to 3.x conversion tool), Argument Clinic, Build, 
Cross-Build, Demos and Tools, Distutils, Documentation, Extension Modules, 
FreeBSD, IDLE, IO, Installation, Interpreter Core, Library (Lib), Regular 
Expressions, SSL, Tests, Tkinter, Unicode, Windows, XML, asyncio, ctypes, 
email, macOS
messages: 325434
nosy: AcostaJA, Alex.Willmer, asvetlov, barry, docs@python, dstufft, 
eric.araujo, ezio.melotti, koobs, larry, mrabarnett, ned.deily, paul.moore, 
r.david.murray, ronaldoussoren, steve.dower, terry.reedy, tim.golden, vstinner, 
yselivanov, zach.ware
priority: normal
severity: normal
status: open
title: Dismiss To Avoid Slave/Master wording cause it easier for non English 
spoken programmers
type: enhancement

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