[issue35654] Remove 'guarantee' that sorting only relies on __lt__ from sorting howto

[Raymond Hettinger]

Raymond Hettinger  added the comment:

> Well, if this is indeed by design (and I missed the
> list.sort() reference) then I agree the HOWTO should not be changed

It is in fact by design :-)

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stage:  -> resolved
status: open -> closed

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[issue35654] Remove 'guarantee' that sorting only relies on __lt__ from sorting howto

[Terry J. Reedy]

Change by Terry J. Reedy :


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versions: +Python 3.8 -Python 3.6

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[issue35654] Remove 'guarantee' that sorting only relies on __lt__ from sorting howto

[Martijn Pieters]

Martijn Pieters  added the comment:

(I have no opinion on this having to be a language feature however)

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[issue35654] Remove 'guarantee' that sorting only relies on __lt__ from sorting howto

[Martijn Pieters]

Martijn Pieters  added the comment:

Well, if this is indeed by design (and I missed the list.sort() reference) then 
I agree the HOWTO should not be changed!

I'd be happy to change this to asking for more explicit mentions in the docs 
for sorted, heapq and bisect that using only < (__lt__) is a deliberate choice.

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[issue35654] Remove 'guarantee' that sorting only relies on __lt__ from sorting howto

[Tim Peters]

Tim Peters  added the comment:

Steven, thanks for noticing the docs!  I was surprised to hear it wasn't 
documented, but not surprised enough to check myself ;-)

This decision was suggested by me, and endorsed by Guido, when designing 
timsort looking ahead to Python 3, where __cmp__ was going to vanish.  The 
convenience of needing to add only a single method to support a custom sort 
order is considerable.

Since it's working as designed and dccumented, and I know for certain that code 
in the wild relises on it, I'm inclined to reject this report.  However, rather 
than add more words to `sorted()`, I'd suggest removing words from `sorted()`, 
pointing instead to the `.sort()` docs for all specification of `sorted()`'s 
sorting behavior.

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[issue35654] Remove 'guarantee' that sorting only relies on __lt__ from sorting howto

[Raymond Hettinger]

Raymond Hettinger  added the comment:

I also prefer to leave this as is.  FWIW, heapq and bisect are also 
deliberately based on __lt__.  The PEP 8 advice (something I wrote) is 
primarily about making code less fragile and avoiding surprising behavior.

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assignee: docs@python -> rhettinger

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[issue35654] Remove 'guarantee' that sorting only relies on __lt__ from sorting howto

[Steven D'Aprano]

Steven D'Aprano  added the comment:

> That sort currently uses __lt__ only is, in my opinion, an implementation 
> detail.

Its only an implementation detail until the language specification defines it 
as a guarantee of the language. Then it becomes part of the sorting API.

Personally, I think it is a nice feature that sorting works for objects which 
define only __lt__, and it sounds like Tim is happy for that to be part of the 
sort API.

This is documented under list.sort() but not sorted():

https://docs.python.org/3/library/stdtypes.html#list.sort

https://docs.python.org/3/library/functions.html#sorted

Rather than removing it from the HOWTO, I would rather document that fact under 
sorted() as well.

If you still want to argue that we should not document this as a language 
guarantee, for the sake of other implementations such as Jython and IronPython, 
you should raise it on Python-Dev. It would probably help if you had other 
implementation maintainers state that this was a burden on them.

For what it is worth, it seems that Jython 2.5 supports this feature too.

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nosy: +steven.daprano

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[issue35654] Remove 'guarantee' that sorting only relies on __lt__ from sorting howto

[Tim Peters]

Tim Peters  added the comment:

I don't know that the language needs to define this, but sticking to __lt__ was 
a wholly deliberate design decision for CPython.

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[issue35654] Remove 'guarantee' that sorting only relies on __lt__ from sorting howto

[Martijn Pieters]

New submission from Martijn Pieters :

Currently, the sorting HOWTO at 
https://docs.python.org/3/howto/sorting.html#odd-and-ends contains the text:

> The sort routines are guaranteed to use __lt__() when making comparisons 
> between two objects. So, it is easy to add a standard sort order to a class 
> by defining an __lt__() method

Nowhere else in the Python documentation is this guarantee made, however. That 
sort currently uses __lt__ only is, in my opinion, an implementation detail.

The above advice also goes against the advice PEP 8 gives:

> When implementing ordering operations with rich comparisons, it is best to 
> implement all six operations (__eq__, __ne__, __lt__, __le__, __gt__, __ge__) 
> rather than relying on other code to only exercise a particular comparison.
>
> To minimize the effort involved, the functools.total_ordering() decorator 
> provides a tool to generate missing comparison methods.

The 'guarantee' seems to have been copied verbatim from the Wiki version of the 
HOWTO in 
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/0fe095e87f727f4a19b6cbfd718d51935a888740,
 where that part of the Wiki page was added by an anonymous user in revision 44 
to the page: 
https://wiki.python.org/moin/HowTo/Sorting?action=diff=43=44

Can this be removed from the HOWTO?

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assignee: docs@python
components: Documentation
messages: 332949
nosy: docs@python, mjpieters, rhettinger
priority: normal
severity: normal
status: open
title: Remove 'guarantee' that sorting only relies on __lt__ from sorting howto
versions: Python 3.6

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