[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
Éric Araujo mer...@netwok.org added the comment: FWIW, I’m no longer strongly advocating using $XDG_CONFIG_HOME, since it seems to have little acceptance outside of graphical applications. Using it *or* ~/.python (or ~/.pythonx.y) would work for me. Since this seems like a big change for no benefit in distutils, I’m reassigning to distutils2. To push this issue forward, I am writing an email to python-dev today. -- components: +Distutils2 -Distutils versions: +Python 2.5, Python 2.6, Python 3.1 ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
Michael Foord mich...@voidspace.org.uk added the comment: As a (mainly ex) windows user I would hate to have user editable data in APPDATA as it is not a location the user ever expects to visit. The home directory, or a subdirectory thereof, for user editable app specific data is more usual and more friendly. -- ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
Éric Araujo mer...@netwok.org added the comment: I guess I misremembered. %APPDATA% is /usr/share, right? What I meant was the variable that expands to the “documents and settings” directory. -- ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
Éric Araujo mer...@netwok.org added the comment: Pointed out by Tarek: http://github.com/ActiveState/appdirs#readme (shame it doesn‘t follow the BaseDir Spec on Free OSes). -- ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
Michael Foord mich...@voidspace.org.uk added the comment: I still think that user editable configuration data, at least on windows, is different from application data. It would definitely seem weird to me to have a config file in the %APPDATA% directory. %APPDATA% would be fine for a cache or other application specific data. On Windows I would expect something like: c:\Documents and Settings\AppName (Note the settings in Documents and settings... - although in Windows 7 I think this might just be Documents now.) -- ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
Glyph Lefkowitz gl...@twistedmatrix.com added the comment: Well, that makes it the user-specific equivalent of /usr or /usr/local. Do you put your configuration files in /usr/local ? Why put them in .local ? Yes, software built for /usr/local will often respect /usr/local/etc in addition to /etc. Also, many desktop Linux applications put state into ~/.local/share/$appname. I am not sure about configuration files, (apps that use ~/.local will typically use ~/.config for configuration, but that is a different thing entirely) but autotools applications built with '--prefix ~/.local' will often respect ~/.local/etc. I agree with Ned that neither ~/.local nor /etc are a good fit for OSX, sadly enough I wasn't paying attention when ~/.local was added as python already had a per-user directory on OSX: ~/Library/Python. I argued loudly for consistency in treatment of UNIX-like OSes when this decision was being made, and I stand by that position. Why would you want to break software that works fine on BSD and Linux by requiring that it specifically test for OS X, and do the exact same thing, but in a different directory? (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_UNIX_Specification#Mac_OS_X_and_Mac_OS_X_Server) The addition of a per-user directory on OS X when there were no similar directories on other platforms was a weird oversight. The user site directory in Python 2.5 and earlier does not use any features of OS X and refers to ~/Library/Python only by convention. Plus, that convention didn't support the distutils properly anyway: if you put your library code into ~/Library/Python, where are you supposed to tell 'setup.py install' to put script files? With ~/.local, it's obvious: ~/.local/bin. The real OS X convention is to put your code _into your application bundle_, after all, not into random directories in ~/Library. If you don't have an application or framework bundle, you have one foot in UNIX-land already. The point of honoring platform conventions is to provide a consistent experience to users; some users on OS X will be expecting UNIX-like behavior, some will be expecting Framework-like behavior, and there is really no reason not to provide both. There is no reason not to consider /etc, for that matter. PHP, for example, still reads /etc/php.ini on OS X. -- nosy: +glyph ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
Éric Araujo mer...@netwok.org added the comment: When ~/.local/lib was chosen for the user directory, the BaseDir Spec was given as prior example. Why not go the full way and follow the spec? The config file could be $XDG_CONFIG_HOME/python/distutils, with $XDG_CONFIG_HOME defaulting to ~/.config. References: http://standards.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/basedir-spec-0.6.html http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/pyxdg (deals with freedesktop.org-approved file formats too; the part of the code that deals with paths would make a useful addition to the stdlib, as more and more applications follow the spec) -- nosy: +Merwok ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
Ned Deily n...@acm.org added the comment: /etc is definitely not the right place to put files for OS X framework builds; if necessary, an etc directory could be added under the framework version directory as a sibling of bin and lib. It's also very un-OS X like to be putting things into ~/.python and ~/.local directories; the usual place would be in somewhere ~/Library, possibly ~/Library/Application Support/Python or ~/Library/Frameworks. Keep in mind that it's much more likely on OS X to not only have muitiple versions of Python installed but also more than one instance of the *same* version, for instance, on 10.6, an Apple-supplied 2.6.2 and a python.org 2.6.4. Some thought should be given to locations for the files for Unix-style (non-framework) builds. (Adding Ronald.) -- nosy: +ned.deily, ronaldoussoren ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
Marc-Andre Lemburg m...@egenix.com added the comment: Ned Deily wrote: Ned Deily n...@acm.org added the comment: /etc is definitely not the right place to put files for OS X framework builds; if necessary, an etc directory could be added under the framework version directory as a sibling of bin and lib. It's also very un-OS X like to be putting things into ~/.python and ~/.local directories; the usual place would be in somewhere ~/Library, possibly ~/Library/Application Support/Python or ~/Library/Frameworks. Keep in mind that it's much more likely on OS X to not only have muitiple versions of Python installed but also more than one instance of the *same* version, for instance, on 10.6, an Apple-supplied 2.6.2 and a python.org 2.6.4. Some thought should be given to locations for the files for Unix-style (non-framework) builds. (Adding Ronald.) I think there is a misunderstanding here: we're trying to find places where distutils would look by default, not where it would write files. AFAIK, there is general agreement that when writing files, Python should use the ~/.local/pythonX.X/ directory. OTOH, searching for config files that the user creates and puts in place is another story. Python and distutils only need to be able to find these and the idea is to use platform specific standard search paths for this, so that the user can place those config files into places that feel right on each platform. -- ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
Ned Deily n...@acm.org added the comment: I don't think there's a misunderstanding. By putting, I meant reading or writing. IMO, /etc is not the place on OS X to be looking for python-related configuration files, certainly not for framework installs. Likewise for ~/.python and ~/.local. Unfortunately, the latter is already out in the field; that was a step in the wrong direction for OS X. -- ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
Changes by Frank Wierzbicki fwierzbi...@gmail.com: -- nosy: +fwierzbicki ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
Ronald Oussoren ronaldousso...@mac.com added the comment: I agree with Ned that neither ~/.local nor /etc are a good fit for OSX, sadly enough I wasn't paying attention when ~/.local was added as python already had a per-user directory on OSX: ~/Library/Python. The common unix directories are often not a good pick for good OSX citizens, even if OSX is build on Unix. The OSX filesystem structure should be described somewhere below http://developer.apple.com/mac/library/documentation/MacOSX/Conceptual/ BPFileSystem/BPFileSystem.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/1185, although I haven't found a clear explanation yet. Technically configuration files should be stored in /Library/Preferences (system wide) or ~/Library/Preferences (per user), but I'd say practicality beats purity here and I'd store configuration in /Library/Python/etc or ~/Library/Python/etc. BTW. I haven't read most of the discussion yet, I'll probably have more to add when I do. What I did notice was a proposal to store the distutils cfg file in ~/.local/lib/pythonX.Y/site- packages/distutils.cfg. IMHO that way to hidden and an unexpected location for storing configuration files. -- ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
Georg Brandl ge...@python.org added the comment: FYI, /etc/pythonX.Y (and /etc/python) are used by Debian; the former contains site.py and sitecustomize.py, the latter a file called debain_config. I can't see how this could become a problem, but maybe someone else does. -- nosy: +georg.brandl ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
Tarek Ziadé ziade.ta...@gmail.com added the comment: Thanks for the info Georges. I am adding Matthias and Michael so they can give us their opinions for their platforms (Debian/Ubuntu and Win) -- nosy: +doko, michael.foord ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
Michael Foord mich...@voidspace.org.uk added the comment: Personally I'm uncomfortable with creating yet-another-location-for-config-files. As we now have is ~/.local/pythonX.Y I would reuse this. -- ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
Georg Brandl ge...@python.org added the comment: But ~/.local is simply not the location for config files. -- ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
Michael Foord mich...@voidspace.org.uk added the comment: For Linux and Mac OS X put the config file wherever the 'right' place is then, but we are starting to create a lot of new directories disparate from the actual install. Oh well. On Windows we create: %APPDATA%/Python/PythonX.Y/site-packages If it is to no longer live inside distutils (which seems reasonable) then on Windoze a 'good' place would seem to be: %APPDATA%/Python/PythonX.Y/ On Windows there is no 'right' place, the officially right place for the system is probably the registry but I don't think many Python programmers would thank you for that... -- ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
Michael Foord mich...@voidspace.org.uk added the comment: Noting of course that on IronPython it should be: %APPDATA%/IronPython/PythonX.Y/ or wherever we decided in the end. :-) -- ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
Tarek Ziadé ziade.ta...@gmail.com added the comment: The subversion system looks pretty nice ! So here's a modified proposal that covers the python version as well. = per user configuration files = ~/.pythonMAJOR.MINOR Examples: ~/.python2.7 ~/.python3.1 On Windows, ~ will be replaced by APPDATA if founded in the environment. == global configuration files == On Linux/Mac: /etc/pythonMAJOR.MINOR examples: /etc/python2.7/ /etc/python3.1/ On Windows: \All users\Application Data\PythonMAJORMINOR (\All users\Application Data is specified by the Windows Registry) examples: \All users\Application Data\Python26 \All users\Application Data\Python31 == standard naming for configuration files == The files are all named NAME.cfg, in all platforms. == what gets in per-user configuration directory == - pypi.cfg - distutils.cfg == what gets in global configuration directory == - distutils.cfg == apis added == in site.py: - getuserconfig() : returns the per-user configuration directory - getconfig(): returns the global configuration directory (the names are following site.py naming style) -- ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
New submission from Tarek Ziadé ziade.ta...@gmail.com: [.]pydistutils.cfg will be deprecated in favor of a single distutils.cfg, located in .local/ alongside the files added for example by the per user-site packages. -- assignee: tarek components: Distutils messages: 94272 nosy: tarek priority: normal severity: normal status: open title: unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local versions: Python 2.7, Python 3.2 ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment: Why is this? .local/ contains machine-installed files while .pydistutils.cfg is edited by the user. -- nosy: +pitrou ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
Tarek Ziadé ziade.ta...@gmail.com added the comment: That's what is returned by site.getuserbase() (which uses PYTHONUSERBASE, and defaults to ~/.local) PYTHONUSERBASE is the root of Python user-specific paths so it makes sense to have all Python related files in there. This came up with the discussion we had with others at Distutils-SIG read this thread here for more info: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/distutils-sig/2009-August/012865.html [.]pypirc should probably go there too. -- type: - feature request ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment: That's what is returned by site.getuserbase() (which uses PYTHONUSERBASE, and defaults to ~/.local) Well, that makes it the user-specific equivalent of /usr or /usr/local. Do you put your configuration files in /usr/local ? Why put them in .local ? PYTHONUSERBASE is the root of Python user-specific paths so it makes sense to have all Python related files in there. That doesn't make sense actually, since .local isn't Python-specific. :) -- ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment: I've read the thread now and I think the original proposal of having a ~/.python was more sensible and more user-friendly. -- ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
R. David Murray rdmur...@bitdance.com added the comment: +1 to what Antoine said. -- nosy: +r.david.murray ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
Tarek Ziadé ziade.ta...@gmail.com added the comment: Well, that makes it the user-specific equivalent of /usr or /usr/local. Do you put your configuration files in /usr/local ? Why put them in .local ? The distutils.cfg file is located in the distutils package itself ! So the target is ~/.local/pythonX.X/site-packages/distutils/distutils.cfg (sorry if that was unclear) Now, I would totally agree to have a better ~/.NAME to reunite user-specific *configuration* file for Python, but that would be yet another directory for user-specific Python files. -- ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment: The distutils.cfg file is located in the distutils package itself ! So the target is ~/.local/pythonX.X/site-packages/distutils/distutils.cfg Ah, that's horrible. -1 to that. Configuration files should be easily findable by skimming through the dot-files in the user's directory. ~/.python fulfills that condition. -- ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
Tarek Ziadé ziade.ta...@gmail.com added the comment: I like ~/.python very much too (that was my initial proposal IIRC). I guess the best way to add this support is to provide a new api in site.py, that returns this folder. Distutils can move pypirc and distutils.cfg file there. Now for the global distutils.cfg, if we want to have it somewhere else that the distutils package directory itself, we would need a /etc/python scheme for instance, that could be also added in site.py. I don't know though how the latter would look under windows -- nosy: +barry, lemburg ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue7175] unify pydistutils.cfg and distutils.cfg and use .local
Marc-Andre Lemburg m...@egenix.com added the comment: Tarek Ziadé wrote: Tarek Ziadé ziade.ta...@gmail.com added the comment: I like ~/.python very much too (that was my initial proposal IIRC). +1 on that name as well. One thing to note though: it is well possible that a user uses multiple Python versions. With just one such directory, all versions would look in the same directory for the configuration files and this could lead to incompatibilities, e.g. Python 2.7 might not like that Python 3.6 needs in some config file (for whatever reason). Now for the global distutils.cfg, if we want to have it somewhere else that the distutils package directory itself, we would need a /etc/python scheme for instance, that could be also added in site.py. I don't know though how the latter would look under windows I think Subversion get's this pretty right, so we might want to follow their scheme: http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.1/ch07.html#svn-ch-7-sect-1 -- ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue7175 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
