[issue9080] Provide list prepend method (even though it's not efficient)
sorin sorin.sbar...@gmail.com added the comment: +1 for adding it because it will make the code easier to read/understand. Bad performance could be documented and it's related about internal representation. -- nosy: +sorin ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue9080 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue9080] Provide list prepend method (even though it's not efficient)
Raymond Hettinger rhettin...@users.sourceforge.net added the comment: Sorry, this needs to stay closed. It has no chance. -- nosy: +rhettinger ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue9080 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue9080] Provide list prepend method (even though it's not efficient)
New submission from Andy Buckley a...@insectnation.org: I know that Python lists aren't designed for efficient prepending, but sometimes when working with small lists it's exactly what needs to be done (search path lists being a common example). For a programmer aware of the performance issue and having convinced themself that it's not a problem for their use-case, it's a niggle that there is no prepend() function for lists by direct analogy to the commonly-used append(). Writing l = [foo] + l, or something mucky based on l.insert(0, ...) or reverse/append/reverse is annoyingly asymmetric and no more performant. So I suggest that l.append(x) be added to the list interface, with a prominent warning in the documentation that it's not an efficient operation on that type (possibly mention the complexity scaling with list length). I think the role of the interface is to make simple things simple, not to make it difficult to do simple-but-inefficient things that people will do anyway ;) -- components: Library (Lib) messages: 108587 nosy: andybuckley priority: normal severity: normal status: open title: Provide list prepend method (even though it's not efficient) type: feature request versions: Python 2.6 ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue9080 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue9080] Provide list prepend method (even though it's not efficient)
Jean-Paul Calderone exar...@twistedmatrix.com added the comment: Thanks for bringing this up. I think you have more work to do to successfully make the case that L.insert(0, x) is difficult enough to merit the addition of a new list method. There are already at least two in-place insert-at-front list APIs (the second being L[:0] = [x]). There should be a very compelling reason for adding a third, and I don't think that being able to skip the extra 0 in the L.insert version is going to suffice. -- nosy: +exarkun resolution: - wont fix status: open - closed ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue9080 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue9080] Provide list prepend method (even though it's not efficient)
Andy Buckley a...@insectnation.org added the comment: Maybe I just value method symmetry/equivalence higher than the designers when it comes to interface expectations. I've seen several I expected there to be a prepend() method like append() on lists, but there isn't -- what do I do? emails on list archives when searching for info on this, which I think is in itself a hint that the current situation is counter-intuitive. The argument that there are already two ways to do it, so why add a third?, is not bad, but if applied to appending, it would ban the append() method... except that it's already there. Personally, the behaviour of append() is very familiar, while insert(0, ...) is less-used and I always have to explicitly confirm to myself that it isn't going to overwrite the zeroth existing element. Adding a prepend(x) method which just calls insert(0, x) (or calls the same underlying C function) would change nothing in terms of code efficiency -- bad programmers will always write inefficient code, one way or another -- but would make the list API more intuitive and improve code readability: seems to me like the sort of thing that Python is philosophically into ;) Sorry to bring up this issue that I guess has been raised (many times?) before, but I thought I'd have a stab at a convincing case! -- ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue9080 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue9080] Provide list prepend method (even though it's not efficient)
Ezio Melotti ezio.melo...@gmail.com added the comment: If we add a .prepend() method, people will see it and start using it. Since now there's no 'prepend' method people ask why, and the answer they usually get is because it not a good idea to add elements on lists (but if you really have to use the 'insert' method). The symmetry should be in the use case, not (only) in the names, otherwise we should also have a method to pop from the beginning to complete the symmetry with append/pop. If you are not convinced yet you could write to the python-ideas mailing list. -- nosy: +ezio.melotti ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue9080 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue9080] Provide list prepend method (even though it's not efficient)
Mark Dickinson dicki...@gmail.com added the comment: Andy, the bug-tracker isn't really the best place for this sort of discussion; if you want to take this further I'd suggest mailing the python-ideas mailing list (bigger audience). FWIW, the bar for adding new methods to builtins should be pretty high; I agree with Jean-Paul that 'list.prepend' seems unnecessary. -- nosy: +mark.dickinson ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue9080 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue9080] Provide list prepend method (even though it's not efficient)
Jean-Paul Calderone exar...@twistedmatrix.com added the comment: The argument that there are already two ways to do it, so why add a third?, is not bad, but if applied to appending, it would ban the append() method... except that it's already there. Not quite. First let's consider the insert approach. Unlike with prepending, you first have to find the length of the list: L.insert(len(L), x). So it's no longer just a matter of an extra constant (although it /is/ still pretty simple). Next, the slice assignment solution: L[-1:] = [x] doesn't work, because it actually includes the last element of L in the slice, so it replaces the last value instead of appending the new element. So there's really just two ways, L.insert(len(L), x) and L.append(x). To me, it seems like the extra cognitive load of figuring out whether the parameter to L.insert should be len(L) or len(L) - 1 or len(L) + 1 makes L.append worthwhile. Maybe the same argument could be applied to L.insert(0, x), but it seems like a simpler case (of _course_ inserting at 0 prepends) to me. The other cost of adding a new list method is updating all of the list-like interfaces out there to also provide this, although that would probably be a cost worth accepting for a really compelling new method. Sorry to bring up this issue that I guess has been raised (many times?) before, but I thought I'd have a stab at a convincing case! No need to apologize! Thanks for the reasoned argument. At least this can serve as a reference when the issue comes up again in the future, and perhaps someone else will be more convinced than overrule me. :) -- ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue9080 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue9080] Provide list prepend method (even though it's not efficient)
Georg Brandl ge...@python.org added the comment: [insert the usual reference to collections.deque here] -- nosy: +georg.brandl ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue9080 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue9080] Provide list prepend method (even though it's not efficient)
Ezio Melotti ezio.melo...@gmail.com added the comment: Here: http://docs.python.org/py3k/tutorial/datastructures.html#using-lists-as-queues -- ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue9080 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue9080] Provide list prepend method (even though it's not efficient)
Andy Buckley a...@insectnation.org added the comment: Still not convinced with the reasoning, I'm afraid, but I certainly agree that modifications to built-ins are not to be made lightly. Using deques, which are far less familiar, is not a particularly natural thing to do for a search path, and of course can't be used with a built-in list to which you might well wish to prepend: sys.path. Personally, I would have no problem with a list pop_front method ;) I understand the connection of API availability and misuse of algorithmically inefficient methods -- for large lists -- but I don't find be inconveniently absent so that users search for an answer and find out about complexity issues a very compelling or Pythonic design aim. But I admit that l.insert(0, x) is not such a hard idiom to learn -- just a bit less syntactically elegant and self-explanatory than I would prefer for a simple task, especially where I've already conciously made the efficiency decision in my choice of container type. But thanks for listening... as mentioned, this can stay here as a reference for further enquiries (I searched for a pre-existing prepend() request before submitting this ticket, of course!) and I'll go visit python-ideas. Cheers! -- ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue9080 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
