Re: [python-committers] Mentoring Julien Palard (core), Cheryl Sabella (bug) and Sanyam Khurana (bug)

[Nick Coghlan]

On 10 December 2017 at 09:46, R. David Murray  wrote:
> The point is, in Martin's judgement (and I have had no reason to doubt
> it in the years that have followed) is that it is a far more common
> problem for newly promoted people to be afraid to screw up than it is
> for someone to go rogue and not listen when communicated with.  In my
> experience the latter has happened only once, and we have a lot of
> people with triage privileges.

+1 - "Who am I to have this power?" is a pretty common reaction to
community promotions, so erring on the side of "I trust your
judgement, so you should trust your judgement" is a good way to go.

But at the same time, we should make it clear that "Help me better
calibrate my judgement" is an entirely appropriate use case for the
core-mentorship list (and we keep those archives closed so they're not
available to search engines).

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncogh...@gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [python-committers] Mentoring Julien Palard (core), Cheryl Sabella (bug) and Sanyam Khurana (bug)

[R. David Murray]

On Sat, 09 Dec 2017 14:12:52 +0100, Victor Stinner  
wrote:
> I asked them to ask me to double check before merging a pull request
> (Julien) or closing a bug (Cheryl and Sanyam).

When I have promoted people to triage in the past I have not had them
check with me before making changes, but instead simply encouraged them
to ask me questions if they had doubts.  I base this on the advice I
was given my Martin von Loewis when he gave me triage privileges however
many years ago it was.  He said (paraphrased) "Don't be afraid to use
this power.  It is worse to to be tentative and not do the work than it
is to do the work and make mistakes.  All tracker changes are reversible,
so don't be afraid to make changes."

The point is, in Martin's judgement (and I have had no reason to doubt
it in the years that have followed) is that it is a far more common
problem for newly promoted people to be afraid to screw up than it is
for someone to go rogue and not listen when communicated with.  In my
experience the latter has happened only once, and we have a lot of
people with triage privileges.

--David
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[python-committers] Saying hello as a new core dev

[Julien Palard via python-committers]

Hi, python-committers!

That's huge, for me, to receive this notification "Your now a core developer, 
congratulations!" thanks everyone here!

And waw, your messages in your votes to bring me in are heartwarming, as I said 
yesterday they validate, again and again, the ancient adage "Come for the 
language, stay for the community".

​-- 
Julien Palard
https://mdk.fr

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Re: [python-committers] Mentoring Julien Palard (core), Cheryl Sabella (bug) and Sanyam Khurana (bug)

[Carol Willing]

> On Dec 9, 2017, at 3:01 PM, Victor Stinner  wrote:
> 
> I agree with Mariatta, I don't think that yet another mailing list is needed 
> ;-)
> 

:-)

> Brett: it's ok reject Cherl's subscription, maybe it's just a 
> misunderstanding. I added Cheryl in CC to my email to python-commiters when I 
> announced that she got the bug triage permission. Maybe such email should be 
> sent to the core-mentorship mailing instead to be more consistent?

That's a good idea to announce on core-mentorship going forward.


> 
> Victor
> 
> Le 9 déc. 2017 19:37, "Mariatta Wijaya"  > a écrit :
> I think questions about triaging can be asked in the regular core-mentorship 
> as those are useful for all contributors and core devs.
> 
> On Dec 9, 2017 10:23 AM, "Carol Willing"  > wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Dec 9, 2017, at 11:58 AM, Brett Cannon > > wrote:
>> 
>> I have a subscription request to python-committers from Cheryl. Im planing 
>> rejecting it since we have kept this list only to committees, but I didn't 
>> want it to come off as rude when it happens.
>> 
>> I also don't know if we want a triage-only list.
>> 
> 
> Perhaps it would be a good idea to have a "core mentorship - triage" list 
> which core devs interested in mentoring and triage can help answer questions 
> from Cheryl and Sanyam and others down the road. Nice things about a list 
> like this is it could be low traffic and supportive while helping to build 
> maintainer skills over time. I would be happy to moderate and encourage folks 
> on a list like that.
> 
>> 
>> On Sat, Dec 9, 2017, 05:13 Victor Stinner, > > wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> For your information, I just sent emails to Julien, Cheryl and Sanyam
>> to notify them that I will their mentor during one month.
>> 
>> I asked them to ask me to double check before merging a pull request
>> (Julien) or closing a bug (Cheryl and Sanyam).
>> 
>> Since I'm trying for formalize the whole process to become a core dev,
>> I kept a copy of my emails to serve as template for future mentors:
>> 
>> https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/cpython/mentor_core_dev_email.rst
>>  
>> 
>> https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/cpython/mentor_bug_triage_email.rst
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> By the way, I'm now working on the "Process to become a core
>> developer" document (maybe becoming a PEP later?) at:
>> https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/cpython/pep-core_dev_process.rst
>>  
>> 
>> (I almost didn't change since I sent it to python-committers)
>> 
>> Victor
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> 
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Re: [python-committers] Mentoring Julien Palard (core), Cheryl Sabella (bug) and Sanyam Khurana (bug)

[Victor Stinner]

I agree with Mariatta, I don't think that yet another mailing list is
needed ;-)

Brett: it's ok reject Cherl's subscription, maybe it's just a
misunderstanding. I added Cheryl in CC to my email to python-commiters when
I announced that she got the bug triage permission. Maybe such email should
be sent to the core-mentorship mailing instead to be more consistent?

Victor

Le 9 déc. 2017 19:37, "Mariatta Wijaya"  a
écrit :

> I think questions about triaging can be asked in the regular
> core-mentorship as those are useful for all contributors and core devs.
>
> On Dec 9, 2017 10:23 AM, "Carol Willing"  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 9, 2017, at 11:58 AM, Brett Cannon  wrote:
>>
>> I have a subscription request to python-committers from Cheryl. Im
>> planing rejecting it since we have kept this list only to committees, but I
>> didn't want it to come off as rude when it happens.
>>
>> I also don't know if we want a triage-only list.
>>
>>
>> Perhaps it would be a good idea to have a "core mentorship - triage" list
>> which core devs interested in mentoring and triage can help answer
>> questions from Cheryl and Sanyam and others down the road. Nice things
>> about a list like this is it could be low traffic and supportive while
>> helping to build maintainer skills over time. I would be happy to moderate
>> and encourage folks on a list like that.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 9, 2017, 05:13 Victor Stinner, 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> For your information, I just sent emails to Julien, Cheryl and Sanyam
>>> to notify them that I will their mentor during one month.
>>>
>>> I asked them to ask me to double check before merging a pull request
>>> (Julien) or closing a bug (Cheryl and Sanyam).
>>>
>>> Since I'm trying for formalize the whole process to become a core dev,
>>> I kept a copy of my emails to serve as template for future mentors:
>>>
>>> https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/cpython/mentor_
>>> core_dev_email.rst
>>> https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/cpython/mentor_
>>> bug_triage_email.rst
>>>
>>> By the way, I'm now working on the "Process to become a core
>>> developer" document (maybe becoming a PEP later?) at:
>>> https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/cpython/pep-cor
>>> e_dev_process.rst
>>> (I almost didn't change since I sent it to python-committers)
>>>
>>> Victor
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>>>
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Re: [python-committers] Mentoring Julien Palard (core), Cheryl Sabella (bug) and Sanyam Khurana (bug)

[Mariatta Wijaya]

I think questions about triaging can be asked in the regular
core-mentorship as those are useful for all contributors and core devs.

On Dec 9, 2017 10:23 AM, "Carol Willing"  wrote:

>
>
> On Dec 9, 2017, at 11:58 AM, Brett Cannon  wrote:
>
> I have a subscription request to python-committers from Cheryl. Im planing
> rejecting it since we have kept this list only to committees, but I didn't
> want it to come off as rude when it happens.
>
> I also don't know if we want a triage-only list.
>
>
> Perhaps it would be a good idea to have a "core mentorship - triage" list
> which core devs interested in mentoring and triage can help answer
> questions from Cheryl and Sanyam and others down the road. Nice things
> about a list like this is it could be low traffic and supportive while
> helping to build maintainer skills over time. I would be happy to moderate
> and encourage folks on a list like that.
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 9, 2017, 05:13 Victor Stinner, 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> For your information, I just sent emails to Julien, Cheryl and Sanyam
>> to notify them that I will their mentor during one month.
>>
>> I asked them to ask me to double check before merging a pull request
>> (Julien) or closing a bug (Cheryl and Sanyam).
>>
>> Since I'm trying for formalize the whole process to become a core dev,
>> I kept a copy of my emails to serve as template for future mentors:
>>
>> https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/cpython/
>> mentor_core_dev_email.rst
>> https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/cpython/
>> mentor_bug_triage_email.rst
>>
>> By the way, I'm now working on the "Process to become a core
>> developer" document (maybe becoming a PEP later?) at:
>> https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/cpython/pep-
>> core_dev_process.rst
>> (I almost didn't change since I sent it to python-committers)
>>
>> Victor
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Re: [python-committers] Mentoring Julien Palard (core), Cheryl Sabella (bug) and Sanyam Khurana (bug)

[Carol Willing]

> On Dec 9, 2017, at 11:58 AM, Brett Cannon  wrote:
> 
> I have a subscription request to python-committers from Cheryl. Im planing 
> rejecting it since we have kept this list only to committees, but I didn't 
> want it to come off as rude when it happens.
> 
> I also don't know if we want a triage-only list.
> 

Perhaps it would be a good idea to have a "core mentorship - triage" list which 
core devs interested in mentoring and triage can help answer questions from 
Cheryl and Sanyam and others down the road. Nice things about a list like this 
is it could be low traffic and supportive while helping to build maintainer 
skills over time. I would be happy to moderate and encourage folks on a list 
like that.

> 
> On Sat, Dec 9, 2017, 05:13 Victor Stinner,  > wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> For your information, I just sent emails to Julien, Cheryl and Sanyam
> to notify them that I will their mentor during one month.
> 
> I asked them to ask me to double check before merging a pull request
> (Julien) or closing a bug (Cheryl and Sanyam).
> 
> Since I'm trying for formalize the whole process to become a core dev,
> I kept a copy of my emails to serve as template for future mentors:
> 
> https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/cpython/mentor_core_dev_email.rst
>  
> 
> https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/cpython/mentor_bug_triage_email.rst
>  
> 
> 
> By the way, I'm now working on the "Process to become a core
> developer" document (maybe becoming a PEP later?) at:
> https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/cpython/pep-core_dev_process.rst 
> 
> (I almost didn't change since I sent it to python-committers)
> 
> Victor
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Re: [python-committers] Mentoring Julien Palard (core), Cheryl Sabella (bug) and Sanyam Khurana (bug)

[Brett Cannon]

I have a subscription request to python-committers from Cheryl. Im planing
rejecting it since we have kept this list only to committees, but I didn't
want it to come off as rude when it happens.

I also don't know if we want a triage-only list.

On Sat, Dec 9, 2017, 05:13 Victor Stinner,  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> For your information, I just sent emails to Julien, Cheryl and Sanyam
> to notify them that I will their mentor during one month.
>
> I asked them to ask me to double check before merging a pull request
> (Julien) or closing a bug (Cheryl and Sanyam).
>
> Since I'm trying for formalize the whole process to become a core dev,
> I kept a copy of my emails to serve as template for future mentors:
>
>
> https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/cpython/mentor_core_dev_email.rst
>
> https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/cpython/mentor_bug_triage_email.rst
>
> By the way, I'm now working on the "Process to become a core
> developer" document (maybe becoming a PEP later?) at:
>
> https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/cpython/pep-core_dev_process.rst
> (I almost didn't change since I sent it to python-committers)
>
> Victor
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[python-committers] Mentoring Julien Palard (core), Cheryl Sabella (bug) and Sanyam Khurana (bug)

[Victor Stinner]

Hi,

For your information, I just sent emails to Julien, Cheryl and Sanyam
to notify them that I will their mentor during one month.

I asked them to ask me to double check before merging a pull request
(Julien) or closing a bug (Cheryl and Sanyam).

Since I'm trying for formalize the whole process to become a core dev,
I kept a copy of my emails to serve as template for future mentors:

https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/cpython/mentor_core_dev_email.rst
https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/cpython/mentor_bug_triage_email.rst

By the way, I'm now working on the "Process to become a core
developer" document (maybe becoming a PEP later?) at:
https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/cpython/pep-core_dev_process.rst
(I almost didn't change since I sent it to python-committers)

Victor
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Re: [python-committers] RFC: Process to become a core developer

[Antoine Pitrou]

Le 09/12/2017 à 08:41, Nick Coghlan a écrit :
> On 8 December 2017 at 04:21, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
>>
>> Le 07/12/2017 à 19:01, Victor Stinner a écrit :
>>>
>>> IMHO the current blocker issue is that it is too hard to become a core
>>> developer.
>>
>> I don't think so.  It should not be harder than it was in 2010, yet we
>> are promoting way less core developers than we did.  See previous
>> discussion.
> 
> I'll note that one thing that *has* changed since then is that we've
> been putting a lot more emphasis on software distribution via PyPI.

This is sounding a bit like any piece of useful functionality would have
been put in the stdlib before 2.7, but that is generally false.
Twisted, Numpy, the various Web servers and frameworks out there have
never been seriously considered for inclusion AFAIR.  There always has
been a health ecosystem of third-party libraries that existed happily
alongside the main Python distribution.

Conversely, there are some kinds of features that have a much more
natural place in the standard distribution rather than third-party
libraries.  For example object serialization (pickle is a standard, if
you have to complement / work around it through third-party hacks it
weakens the whole ecosystem) or interfaces to low-level OS functionality
(do you want to pip-install sendmsg() or sendfile()?).

> I think we've also had a lot of success in bringing the developer
> experience for core devs and non-core-devs closer together - while
> *technically* we can push directly to the main repository, very few of
> us actually do so.

True.  But that doesn't change the underlying issue.  Core developers
are required to actively review and vet proposed changes, and even to
maintain important pieces of the stdlib.

Regards

Antoine.
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