Re: [python-committers] Can we choose between mailing list and discuss.python.org?
On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 6:01 PM Ned Deily wrote: > On Feb 12, 2019, at 20:36, Barry Warsaw wrote: > > On Feb 12, 2019, at 13:59, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > I know I can browse easily through a 161-message mailing-list or > > newsgroup thread using a traditional threaded view, read what I want, > > come back later to read the rest, etc. But Discourse's linear > > presentation pretty much kills that ability. It doesn't even allow > > *seeing* the structure of the discussion. > > That’s pretty much my same, biggest gripe about long GitHub issues and > PRs. ;) > > > But you realize that this a feature, not a bug? :) > > https://blog.codinghorror.com/web-discussions-flat-by-design/ > Thanks for the link. I'm convinced. (No sarcasm.) -- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] Can we choose between mailing list and discuss.python.org?
On Feb 12, 2019, at 20:36, Barry Warsaw wrote: >> On Feb 12, 2019, at 13:59, Antoine Pitrou wrote: >> I know I can browse easily through a 161-message mailing-list or >> newsgroup thread using a traditional threaded view, read what I want, >> come back later to read the rest, etc. But Discourse's linear >> presentation pretty much kills that ability. It doesn't even allow >> *seeing* the structure of the discussion. > That’s pretty much my same, biggest gripe about long GitHub issues and PRs. ;) But you realize that this a feature, not a bug? :) https://blog.codinghorror.com/web-discussions-flat-by-design/ -- Ned Deily n...@python.org -- []___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] Can we choose between mailing list and discuss.python.org?
On Feb 12, 2019, at 13:59, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > I know I can browse easily through a 161-message mailing-list or > newsgroup thread using a traditional threaded view, read what I want, > come back later to read the rest, etc. But Discourse's linear > presentation pretty much kills that ability. It doesn't even allow > *seeing* the structure of the discussion. That’s pretty much my same, biggest gripe about long GitHub issues and PRs. ;) -Barry signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] [Steering-council] Re: Can we choose between mailing list and discuss.python.org?
On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 10:38:32PM +1000, Nick Coghlan wrote: [...] > On Victor's original question, the Discourse experiment has been successful > enough that I don't see a problem with the committers mailing list going > essentially "announce only". I agree with Barry that going further than > that would require a PEP, but Discourse is bad enough for announcements > that I don't see much reason to do that. I know that Discource users have a "mailing list mode". Wouldn't that allow us to solve the problem of splitting discussions by setting up a Discourse to Mailman bridge similar to the way python-list mailing list is mirrored to comp.lang.python? - Set up a user on Discourse in email mode, with address set to python-committers; hence comments on Discourse will be sent here. - Set up a user in mailman that sends to Discourse; responses made here will be sent to that user, which in turn will be sent to Discourse. Some cleverness will be needed to prevent loops of course. I think mailman supports a mode of "Don't send me copies of my own posts", which may be sufficient. But at worst we ought to be able to easily mirror the discourse discussions here as a read-only archive. If we're going to do anything clever like this, we ought to get some experience with it on a low-volume mailing list like this before somebody proposes it for Python-Ideas or Python-List. -- Steven ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] Can we choose between mailing list and discuss.python.org?
Le 11/02/2019 à 20:00, Barry Warsaw a écrit : > On Feb 11, 2019, at 09:48, Victor Stinner wrote: >> >> tl; dr How can we decide if we should stop using mailing list or if we >> should stop using discuss.python.org? > > Point of order: I think we need a PEP for this decision. Such a PEP would > organize and consolidate the arguments both pro and con of the three choices. > It should also cover whether the current Discourse experiment translates to > larger mailing lists like python-dev, -ideas, and -list (for which I > personally have uncertainty about). Same uncertainty here. I don't think Discourse works well for long threads. Here is a 161-message Discourse thread (at the time of this writing): https://discuss.python.org/t/pep-517-backend-bootstrapping/789 I know I can browse easily through a 161-message mailing-list or newsgroup thread using a traditional threaded view, read what I want, come back later to read the rest, etc. But Discourse's linear presentation pretty much kills that ability. It doesn't even allow *seeing* the structure of the discussion. Regards Antoine. ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] Can we choose between mailing list and discuss.python.org?
Since there are more and more communication channels, I wrote https://pythondev.readthedocs.io/communication.html to list all of them :-) Sometimes, I completely forget Zulip :-) Victor Le mar. 12 févr. 2019 à 20:02, Carol Willing a écrit : > > Hi folks, I had mentioned to Barry yesterday to author or co-author a PEP re: > communication channels. If anyone would like to co-author, please let me know. > > On Tue, Feb 12, 2019, 9:53 AM Victor Stinner > >> Le mar. 12 févr. 2019 à 15:07, Giampaolo Rodola' a >> écrit : >> > IMO since the people who are gonna use these communication channels are >> > mostly gonna be core developers (or is Users category also included in the >> > migration plan?) I think the council should take into account how >> > core-devs feel about this first. Opinions may have changed over the course >> > of the last 3 months, but there was a poll back in November showing how >> > many of us were not happy to abandon the mailing lists: >> > https://discuss.python.org/t/how-do-you-find-discourse-so-far/429 >> > ...and that does not include the 24 core devs who never joined discuss. So >> > at the very least I would appreciate having a new poll to understand >> > whether/how things changed in the meantime. FWIW my main concern about >> > discuss remains the long term archival topic described here: >> > https://discuss.python.org/t/discourse-archive-and-backup/637 >> >> I like Barry's idea of a PEP since the points that you listed here >> have already been discussed multiple times. We need a document (a PEP) >> which summarize these discussions and maybe list things that you >> should fixed between we can abandon a mailing list for >> python-committers (for example). >> >> I'm not volunteer to write such PEP. Maybe early supporters of >> Discourse like Lukasz, Pablo and Yury are more interested to write >> such PEP? Anyone else? >> >> Note: I changed my mind on Discourse since discuss.python.org has been >> created :-) It took me time to be used to it. First, I was opposed >> since I'm always opposed to changes by default :-) >> >> Victor >> -- >> Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. >> ___ >> python-committers mailing list >> python-committers@python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers >> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ -- Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] Can we choose between mailing list and discuss.python.org?
Hi folks, I had mentioned to Barry yesterday to author or co-author a PEP re: communication channels. If anyone would like to co-author, please let me know. On Tue, Feb 12, 2019, 9:53 AM Victor Stinner Le mar. 12 févr. 2019 à 15:07, Giampaolo Rodola' a > écrit : > > IMO since the people who are gonna use these communication channels are > mostly gonna be core developers (or is Users category also included in the > migration plan?) I think the council should take into account how core-devs > feel about this first. Opinions may have changed over the course of the > last 3 months, but there was a poll back in November showing how many of us > were not happy to abandon the mailing lists: > > https://discuss.python.org/t/how-do-you-find-discourse-so-far/429 > > ...and that does not include the 24 core devs who never joined discuss. > So at the very least I would appreciate having a new poll to understand > whether/how things changed in the meantime. FWIW my main concern about > discuss remains the long term archival topic described here: > > https://discuss.python.org/t/discourse-archive-and-backup/637 > > I like Barry's idea of a PEP since the points that you listed here > have already been discussed multiple times. We need a document (a PEP) > which summarize these discussions and maybe list things that you > should fixed between we can abandon a mailing list for > python-committers (for example). > > I'm not volunteer to write such PEP. Maybe early supporters of > Discourse like Lukasz, Pablo and Yury are more interested to write > such PEP? Anyone else? > > Note: I changed my mind on Discourse since discuss.python.org has been > created :-) It took me time to be used to it. First, I was opposed > since I'm always opposed to changes by default :-) > > Victor > -- > Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. > ___ > python-committers mailing list > python-committers@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers > Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ > ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] Can we choose between mailing list and discuss.python.org?
Le mar. 12 févr. 2019 à 15:07, Giampaolo Rodola' a écrit : > IMO since the people who are gonna use these communication channels are > mostly gonna be core developers (or is Users category also included in the > migration plan?) I think the council should take into account how core-devs > feel about this first. Opinions may have changed over the course of the last > 3 months, but there was a poll back in November showing how many of us were > not happy to abandon the mailing lists: > https://discuss.python.org/t/how-do-you-find-discourse-so-far/429 > ...and that does not include the 24 core devs who never joined discuss. So at > the very least I would appreciate having a new poll to understand whether/how > things changed in the meantime. FWIW my main concern about discuss remains > the long term archival topic described here: > https://discuss.python.org/t/discourse-archive-and-backup/637 I like Barry's idea of a PEP since the points that you listed here have already been discussed multiple times. We need a document (a PEP) which summarize these discussions and maybe list things that you should fixed between we can abandon a mailing list for python-committers (for example). I'm not volunteer to write such PEP. Maybe early supporters of Discourse like Lukasz, Pablo and Yury are more interested to write such PEP? Anyone else? Note: I changed my mind on Discourse since discuss.python.org has been created :-) It took me time to be used to it. First, I was opposed since I'm always opposed to changes by default :-) Victor -- Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] [Steering-council] Re: Can we choose between mailing list and discuss.python.org?
On Tue, 12 Feb 2019 at 12:38, Nick Coghlan wrote: > > On Victor's original question, the Discourse experiment has been successful > enough that I don't see a problem with the committers mailing list going > essentially "announce only". I agree with Barry that going further than that > would require a PEP, but Discourse is bad enough for announcements that I > don't see much reason to do that. My feeling is that the pace of discussions is slightly different than on the list. See Terry's comment "Otherwise, we would depend on people happening to drop by and notice the vote" - this is another aspect of the "bad for announcements" aspect of Discourse, things can often sit unnoticed for a while due to the fact that Discourse is less of "push" medium and more of a "pull" one (notifications notwithstanding). I think people still need a little time to get used to that change of pace, so discussions don't get assumed to be concluded too soon. But otherwise, yes, for python-committers I think it's worked out well. I do *not* think we know yet whether that will be the same for other groups, and I am worried that monitoring things on a per-category basis may be both necessary and uncomfortably difficult once there's more traffic. Paul ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] [Steering-council] Re: Can we choose between mailing list and discuss.python.org?
On Tue., 12 Feb. 2019, 7:18 am Brett Cannon > > On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 10:26 AM Victor Stinner > wrote: > >> Le lun. 11 févr. 2019 à 18:58, Carol Willing a >> écrit : >> > PS Copying the steering council in case someone has a different view. >> >> So you chose a mailing list and not Discourse? Interesting ;-) >> > > Don't read into that too much. With discuss.python.org not settled yet it > made a mailing list non-controversial for setting up on day 1. > It also solves "How to contact the Steering Council?" problem, similar to the way that python-committers makes it easier to contact all the core developers in a way we're likely to see. On Victor's original question, the Discourse experiment has been successful enough that I don't see a problem with the committers mailing list going essentially "announce only". I agree with Barry that going further than that would require a PEP, but Discourse is bad enough for announcements that I don't see much reason to do that. Cheers, Nick. > -Brett > > >> >> More seriously, what is steering-coun...@python.org? A mailing list >> with 5 subscribers: the members of the steering committee? >> >> Victor >> -- >> Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. >> ___ >> python-committers mailing list >> python-committers@python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers >> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ >> > ___ > Steering-council mailing list -- steering-coun...@python.org > To unsubscribe send an email to steering-council-le...@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/steering-council.python.org/ > ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
