[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)
On Dec 11, 2019, at 02:28, M.-A. Lemburg wrote: > I'm sorry, but I had not expected to be delisted and thus did not > check the voters list. I didn’t expect to be delisted either but I’m sufficiently paranoid to have double checked that I was still on the voter list. Cheers, -Barry signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP ___ python-committers mailing list -- python-committers@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-committers-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committers@python.org/message/E2BWZFOGAWTCWJFPLQ6CAQVTER36PX5O/ Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)
On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 2:31 PM Mariatta wrote: > Re: notifying and sending email to people who were marked as inactive by > the script. > We can send automated email via Zapier. Let me know how I can help with > this part. > I think an automated email to the candidates for removal which is very direct about their imminent removal would be sufficiently effective. The difficult part is getting the wording right without sounding like a fire alarm. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. "A storm broke loose in my mind." --Albert Einstein ___ python-committers mailing list -- python-committers@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-committers-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committers@python.org/message/LWV33O2HEPXI5E4TH435CEGXDEGHSUL4/ Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)
Thanks Brett. Re: notifying and sending email to people who were marked as inactive by the script. We can send automated email via Zapier. Let me know how I can help with this part. On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 11:20 AM Brett Cannon wrote: > I want to make two quick points and then I'm bowing out of this > conversation as this isn't going to change anything for this vote beyond > the exemption we have already granted and no changes to PEP 13 have been > proposed. I was trying to avoid this conversation dragging out right now, > but people keep commenting so I want to try and provide some visibility as > to how this ended up this way and then ask people just wait until someone > proposes something to concretely change PEP 13 (or at least that's what I > plan to do ). > > To Hynek's "code = vote" comment, technically it's "authorship or > committal of a change in the past two years to CPython from when the voter > roll was generated = vote". IOW you could have fixed a spelling mistake, > merged a PR, or even made a commit and then reverted it immediately and > still been automatically included in the voter roll. Basically the term > "active" is very subjective and I did not want to be accused of being > biased or unfair in declaring who was (in)active, so I did the best I could > to be objective and automate this since there are 167 people who could > potentially vote (and we ended up with 78 with the current set-up). > > As for the "please email everyone personally", I just don't have the time > to email 30 people that Giampolo listed or the 89 total people who could > vote but didn't commit or author something in the past two years . But do > note that me lacking the time doesn't mean someone else can't take it upon > themselves to reach out to folks and let them know about them (risking) > falling off in this vote or in future votes as all of this information and > code is accessible to all core developers; other than Ernest's roll of > managing the vote no one is in a place of privilege, just in a place of > putting the time in. I personally have already sank days into making this > vote work starting months ago via pulling together the historical record > and spending all of my precious coding time at the core dev sprints this > year writing the code to generate the voter roll, and so sinking even more > by managing a personal email to everyone is just too much for me to > dedicate on top of everything else. > ___ > python-committers mailing list -- python-committers@python.org > To unsubscribe send an email to python-committers-le...@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ > Message archived at > https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committers@python.org/message/DMQ2JMKJ6GZ74POLKJ4M5RYTBJBCZVDL/ > Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ > ___ python-committers mailing list -- python-committers@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-committers-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committers@python.org/message/UCBWPQCDMULWLMJ5SSXKGRQMYWRUALLS/ Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)
I want to make two quick points and then I'm bowing out of this conversation as this isn't going to change anything for this vote beyond the exemption we have already granted and no changes to PEP 13 have been proposed. I was trying to avoid this conversation dragging out right now, but people keep commenting so I want to try and provide some visibility as to how this ended up this way and then ask people just wait until someone proposes something to concretely change PEP 13 (or at least that's what I plan to do ). To Hynek's "code = vote" comment, technically it's "authorship or committal of a change in the past two years to CPython from when the voter roll was generated = vote". IOW you could have fixed a spelling mistake, merged a PR, or even made a commit and then reverted it immediately and still been automatically included in the voter roll. Basically the term "active" is very subjective and I did not want to be accused of being biased or unfair in declaring who was (in)active, so I did the best I could to be objective and automate this since there are 167 people who could potentially vote (and we ended up with 78 with the current set-up). As for the "please email everyone personally", I just don't have the time to email 30 people that Giampolo listed or the 89 total people who could vote but didn't commit or author something in the past two years . But do note that me lacking the time doesn't mean someone else can't take it upon themselves to reach out to folks and let them know about them (risking) falling off in this vote or in future votes as all of this information and code is accessible to all core developers; other than Ernest's roll of managing the vote no one is in a place of privilege, just in a place of putting the time in. I personally have already sank days into making this vote work starting months ago via pulling together the historical record and spending all of my precious coding time at the core dev sprints this year writing the code to generate the voter roll, and so sinking even more by managing a personal email to everyone is just too much for me to dedicate on top of everything else. ___ python-committers mailing list -- python-committers@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-committers-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committers@python.org/message/DMQ2JMKJ6GZ74POLKJ4M5RYTBJBCZVDL/ Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)
On 11.12.2019 00:58, Brett Cannon wrote: > We discussed the situation on the steering council and we are fine with > making an exception for folks who felt caught off-guard asking Ernest to be > added to the voter roll even though voting has already started. Thanks. > In the new year I will work with Ernest to draft up a proposal for changing > PEP 13 to make this section of it clearer in regards to the expectations for > qualifying to vote. Rather than editing PEP 13, I'd suggest to reconsider the process and send out emails asking people directly. It's easy enough to do using mail merge and avoids situations like these. In addition, it gives the process back the human touch, which I sometimes miss with all these policies in place. Thanks, -- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Dec 11 2019) >>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ >>> Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ >>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/ ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs ::: eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/ ___ python-committers mailing list -- python-committers@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-committers-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committers@python.org/message/U2MGZRHEKZFZA3MR5BP6ZQMA3AVMEP5C/ Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)
Le mer. 11 déc. 2019 à 01:00, Brett Cannon a écrit : > We discussed the situation on the steering council and we are fine with > making an exception for folks who felt caught off-guard asking Ernest to be > added to the voter roll even though voting has already started. > > In the new year I will work with Ernest to draft up a proposal for changing > PEP 13 to make this section of it clearer in regards to the expectations for > qualifying to vote. That sounds like a good compromise for the current vote. Thanks Brett and Ernest for handling this task ;-) Victor -- Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. ___ python-committers mailing list -- python-committers@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-committers-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committers@python.org/message/PWO7B4PQ5KV6MXEASMLW4T53OHSCDHQF/ Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)
On 10.12.2019 23:57, Nick Coghlan wrote: > On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 at 06:52, M.-A. Lemburg wrote: >> The conversion to an inactive dev is something that core devs need >> to be asked to agree to, and thus needs to be managed as a status >> flag, not depend on commits to the repo. > > All committers were asked to check the voter list in mid-November, > before the ballot period started: > https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committers@python.org/thread/EXT5XHEHPGJQS3LW5UG7SK63C2GJDJ2P/ > > The relevant section in PEP 13 is this one: > > == > There's no time limit on core team membership. However, in order to > provide the general public with a reasonable idea of how many people > maintain Python, core team members who have stopped contributing are > encouraged to declare themselves as "inactive". Those who haven't made > any non-trivial contribution in two years may be asked to move > themselves to this category, and moved there if they don't respond. To > record and honor their contributions, inactive team members will > continue to be listed alongside active core team members; and, if they > later resume contributing, they can switch back to active status at > will. While someone is in inactive status, though, they lose their > active privileges like voting or nominating for the steering council, > and commit access. > == > > So everyone *was* asked if they wanted to be kept as active for this > election, but it wasn't explicitly emphasised to the folks that were > otherwise going to being marked as inactive that this was happening > (as it had to be inferred from the absence of your name, rather than > being called out as a list of voters that had been flagged as > potentially inactive since the last voter roll was generated). I'm sorry, but I had not expected to be delisted and thus did not check the voters list. The email also did not make it clear that there was a change which could result in such an action. I read it to mean to check the email address, which in my case, I knew was correct. I do believe that asking a person to have his or status changed to inactive requires a bit more personal approach than this. The PR mentions that the script removed 18 core devs from the list of active ones. It would certainly have been possible to contact these directly and asking them if they are ok with that plan of action: https://github.com/python/voters/pull/10 Thanks, -- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Dec 11 2019) >>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ >>> Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ >>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/ ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs ::: eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/ ___ python-committers mailing list -- python-committers@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-committers-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committers@python.org/message/FFT3LOHZ6J73APXCP2Z4GQFGAZSVRLQK/ Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)
FWIW, since my name appears here: despite my lack of public contributions lately I do not consider myself inactive in any way since I’ve been continually working and cooperating with a lot of people in non-public ways. Whether it was the push for fixing ssl in 2014 or my help with designing data classes more recently. I did notice that my name was missing, but I read PEP 13 in a way that code = vote and didn’t want to raise a stink about it. —h > On 11. Dec 2019, at 10:27, Giampaolo Rodola' wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 4:52 AM M.-A. Lemburg wrote: > Regardless of the logic, I also find it highly questionable that > core devs who are no longer committing to the repo, but have put in > quite a bit of time into the project get their voting rights removed. > > Even when not actively maintaining code, they still do have a > significant stake in the code base, own the copyright to their > contributions and thus should have a say on the future of Python. > > As it turns out I was removed from the list of voters by the above > script, without being asked, and would like to be added back again. > > Agreed. > https://github.com/python/voters/tree/master/voter-files > Between 2019-01-21-2019-*.csv and 2019-12-01-2020-*.csv 30 core-devs were > removed, not sure if only from being able to vote or also from committing: > > Alex Martelli > Alexandre Vassalotti > Amaury Forgeot d'Arc > Armin Ronacher > Chris Jerdonek > David Malcolm > David Wolever > Doug Hellmann > Eli Bendersky > Facundo Batista > Georg Brandl > Hyeshik Chang > Jack Diederich > Jack Jansen > Hynek Schlawack > Jeff Hardy > Jeremy Hylton > Kurt B. Kaiser > Lars Gustäbel > Marc-Andre Lemburg > Mark Hammond > Martin Panter > Meador Inge > Michael Hudson-Doyle > Petri Lehtinen > Philip Jenvey > Sandro Tosi > Sjoerd Mullender > Thomas Heller > Trent Nelson > > Some of these look inactive indeed. Some I personally consider "emeritus" > core-devs, given the central role they played historically within Python > (Alex Martelli just to name one) and I don't see why they should be removed. > Many of these even appear to be active on bugs.python.org or on python-* MLs > today. Some are being listed in devguide/experts.rst as maintainers of stdlib > modules. So I really don't understand the logic being used here. At the very > least they deserved to be asked / notified privately before being removed. > > -- > Giampaolo - http://grodola.blogspot.com > ___ > python-committers mailing list -- python-committers@python.org > To unsubscribe send an email to python-committers-le...@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ > Message archived at > https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committers@python.org/message/RQ5RJIQ7FIDZ6RRTJO2I7TMWNTQY5G4Q/ > Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ ___ python-committers mailing list -- python-committers@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-committers-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committers@python.org/message/5BYENTMETOCS3FBMC3EQQ2E6VHYZIFK5/ Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)
On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 4:52 AM M.-A. Lemburg wrote: > Regardless of the logic, I also find it highly questionable that > core devs who are no longer committing to the repo, but have put in > quite a bit of time into the project get their voting rights removed. > > Even when not actively maintaining code, they still do have a > significant stake in the code base, own the copyright to their > contributions and thus should have a say on the future of Python. > > As it turns out I was removed from the list of voters by the above > script, without being asked, and would like to be added back again. > Agreed. https://github.com/python/voters/tree/master/voter-files Between 2019-01-21-2019-*.csv and 2019-12-01-2020-*.csv 30 core-devs were removed, not sure if only from being able to vote or also from committing: Alex Martelli Alexandre Vassalotti Amaury Forgeot d'Arc Armin Ronacher Chris Jerdonek David Malcolm David Wolever Doug Hellmann Eli Bendersky Facundo Batista Georg Brandl Hyeshik Chang Jack Diederich Jack Jansen Hynek Schlawack Jeff Hardy Jeremy Hylton Kurt B. Kaiser Lars Gustäbel Marc-Andre Lemburg Mark Hammond Martin Panter Meador Inge Michael Hudson-Doyle Petri Lehtinen Philip Jenvey Sandro Tosi Sjoerd Mullender Thomas Heller Trent Nelson Some of these look inactive indeed. Some I personally consider "emeritus" core-devs, given the central role they played historically within Python (Alex Martelli just to name one) and I don't see why they should be removed. Many of these even appear to be active on bugs.python.org or on python-* MLs today. Some are being listed in devguide/experts.rst as maintainers of stdlib modules. So I really don't understand the logic being used here. At the very least they deserved to be asked / notified privately before being removed. -- Giampaolo - http://grodola.blogspot.com ___ python-committers mailing list -- python-committers@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-committers-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committers@python.org/message/RQ5RJIQ7FIDZ6RRTJO2I7TMWNTQY5G4Q/ Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
