Re: [python-committers] Council / board (Was: 1 week to Oct 1)

[Brett Cannon]

On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 at 09:18, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:

> On 25.09.2018 16:28, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:
> > My proposal is taking into consideration The PSF's mission and diversity
> > statement. I will not remove the diversity clause from PEP 8011.
>
> I cannot comment on what you actually have in PEP 8011 as
> diversity clause, since the page is just a placeholder at the
> moment, but please take into consideration that we're *not* debating a
> council which is to represent the Python community or other group of
> people.
>
> The council is intended to be a technical body for steering language
> design and needs experts as members who we all trust and respect
> to make good decisions - regardless of any other criteria and,
> of course, open to all core developers, regardless of background
> (which is what the PSF diversity statement is all about).
>
> > To save us all trouble of discussing this particular issue, for those of
> > you who disagree completely, and have other ideas about how you'd like
> > Python to be governed and who should be in it, you can do one or more of
> > the following:
> >
> > - not vote on my PEP
> > - vote on the other PEPs
> > - write their own PEP
>
> I think we're grown up enough to work on these PEPs together and
> in the usual spirit of coming up with good solutions. We owe
> this to the Python community at large who will be affected by
> whatever we decide.


Correct, but since the PEP isn't ready to be published for discussion this
thread is all speculation based on imperfect information since Mariatta
tried to summarize something ahead of time.

For me personally, I am not going to participate in any discussion about
any PEP until there is a published text to refer to, otherwise the
discussion is ripe for misunderstandings. If a PEP comes out which people
disagree with and want an alternative for I'm sure we can give them an
opportunity to create a tweaked PEP (but I also assume we will have a civil
discussion first in hopes of finding consensus first).
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Re: [python-committers] Council / board (Was: 1 week to Oct 1)

[Donald Stufft]

> On Sep 25, 2018, at 12:24 PM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
> 
> 
> Le 25/09/2018 à 18:10, Guido van Rossum a écrit :
>>To save us all trouble of discussing this particular issue, for
>>those of you who disagree completely, and have other ideas about how
>>you'd like Python to be governed and who should be in it, you can do
>>one or more of the following:
>> 
>>- not vote on my PEP
>>- vote on the other PEPs
>>- write their own PEP
>> 
>> 
>> I would remind people that it's well documented that diverse group make
>> better decisions.
> 
> Can you point us to such documentation?  It would be nice to know under
> which conditions the assertion holds, according to which metrics, etc.


https://hbr.org/2016/11/why-diverse-teams-are-smarter 
 includes links to 
several studies. There are a lot more results as well to the search “diverse 
teams make better decisions” or “diverse groups decision making” on Google as 
well if those studies are lacking to you.


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Re: [python-committers] Council / board (Was: 1 week to Oct 1)

[Antoine Pitrou]

Le 25/09/2018 à 18:10, Guido van Rossum a écrit :
> To save us all trouble of discussing this particular issue, for
> those of you who disagree completely, and have other ideas about how
> you'd like Python to be governed and who should be in it, you can do
> one or more of the following:
> 
> - not vote on my PEP
> - vote on the other PEPs
> - write their own PEP
> 
> 
> I would remind people that it's well documented that diverse group make
> better decisions.

Can you point us to such documentation?  It would be nice to know under
which conditions the assertion holds, according to which metrics, etc.

Also, may I make the matter more concrete?  You have been the BDFL
during 20+ years.  A one-person deciding group of a single white male is
not exactly diverse.  Retrospectively, do you think this led you to take
worse decisions?

Regards

Antoine.
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Re: [python-committers] Council / board (Was: 1 week to Oct 1)

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 25.09.2018 16:28, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:
> My proposal is taking into consideration The PSF's mission and diversity
> statement. I will not remove the diversity clause from PEP 8011.

I cannot comment on what you actually have in PEP 8011 as
diversity clause, since the page is just a placeholder at the
moment, but please take into consideration that we're *not* debating a
council which is to represent the Python community or other group of
people.

The council is intended to be a technical body for steering language
design and needs experts as members who we all trust and respect
to make good decisions - regardless of any other criteria and,
of course, open to all core developers, regardless of background
(which is what the PSF diversity statement is all about).

> To save us all trouble of discussing this particular issue, for those of
> you who disagree completely, and have other ideas about how you'd like
> Python to be governed and who should be in it, you can do one or more of
> the following:
> 
> - not vote on my PEP
> - vote on the other PEPs
> - write their own PEP

I think we're grown up enough to work on these PEPs together and
in the usual spirit of coming up with good solutions. We owe
this to the Python community at large who will be affected by
whatever we decide. Personal agendas should put be aside for
the time being.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Sep 25 2018)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/


::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
  http://www.malemburg.com/

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Re: [python-committers] Council / board (Was: 1 week to Oct 1)

[Guido van Rossum]

On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 7:28 AM Mariatta Wijaya  wrote:

> My proposal is taking into consideration The PSF's mission and diversity
> statement. I will not remove the diversity clause from PEP 8011.
>

+1


> To save us all trouble of discussing this particular issue, for those of
> you who disagree completely, and have other ideas about how you'd like
> Python to be governed and who should be in it, you can do one or more of
> the following:
>
> - not vote on my PEP
> - vote on the other PEPs
> - write their own PEP
>

I would remind people that it's well documented that diverse group make
better decisions. And given that there is a historical bias, often
unconscious, towards white men I think it's good to try to counter this
bias explicitly.

I should also think that "merit-based" criteria tend to reinforce the
existing unconscious bias.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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Re: [python-committers] Council / board (Was: 1 week to Oct 1)

[Antoine Pitrou]

Le 25/09/2018 à 17:49, Victor Stinner a écrit :
> Le mar. 25 sept. 2018 à 13:57, Antoine Pitrou  a écrit :
>> Not sure what you mean here.  What you are asking for is routinely
>> called, AFAIK, "positive discrimination".  Please correct me if I'm wrong.
>>
>> You ask me to assume positive intent, but you are the one assuming
>> negative intent on my part...
> 
> Note: in french, we say "discrimation positive", but in english, we
> prefer "positive action".

Well, apparently it may be about British English vs. American English:
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/positive_discrimination

... which brings us back to the linguistic issues I pointed out in a
previous message.

> If anyone is interested to talk about diversity, code of conduct and
> things like that: please contact me in private.
> 
> These topics are difficult to discuss in a public space. At least, I'm
> not comfortable today to talk about them in public. There are good
> reasons why people don't talk about things like that in public.

Perhaps, but there are also good reasons why debates that lead to
governance decisions should be help publicly.

While it's ok for personal anecdotes to only be shared privately,
mandating that general debate takes place privately will only shut down
debate.

Regards

Antoine.
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Re: [python-committers] Council / board (Was: 1 week to Oct 1)

[Victor Stinner]

Le mar. 25 sept. 2018 à 13:57, Antoine Pitrou  a écrit :
> Not sure what you mean here.  What you are asking for is routinely
> called, AFAIK, "positive discrimination".  Please correct me if I'm wrong.
>
> You ask me to assume positive intent, but you are the one assuming
> negative intent on my part...

Note: in french, we say "discrimation positive", but in english, we
prefer "positive action".

Le mar. 25 sept. 2018 à 14:42, Giampaolo Rodola'  a écrit :
> "white men", "women", "slave"... Personally I find this tendency quite
> worrying and discriminating and frankly I don't understand what it has
> to do with a programming language nor why it's emerging only recently.
> (...)

If anyone is interested to talk about diversity, code of conduct and
things like that: please contact me in private.

These topics are difficult to discuss in a public space. At least, I'm
not comfortable today to talk about them in public. There are good
reasons why people don't talk about things like that in public.

Victor
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Re: [python-committers] Council / board (Was: 1 week to Oct 1)

[Paul Moore]

On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 at 15:28, Mariatta Wijaya  wrote:
>
> My proposal is taking into consideration The PSF's mission and diversity 
> statement. I will not remove the diversity clause from PEP 8011.
>
> To save us all trouble of discussing this particular issue, for those of you 
> who disagree completely, and have other ideas about how you'd like Python to 
> be governed and who should be in it, you can do one or more of the following:
>
> - not vote on my PEP
> - vote on the other PEPs
> - write their own PEP

Or presumably

- discuss the concerns during the debate phase of the process

?

At the moment the discussion seems to be about a possible
misinterpretation of a possible misquote of something the PEP might
end up saying. It seems like it's probably worth waiting until the
facts are clear before saying anything more. But once there's an
actual PEP (not a placeholder) in place, I assume that discussions
about the content *will* be acceptable (as long as they are reasonable
and respectful, obviously). I don't recall the expected details of the
actual process (if they've been published yet) but I don't expect them
to be simply "here's the PEPs, let's vote!".

Paul
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Re: [python-committers] Council / board (Was: 1 week to Oct 1)

[Giampaolo Rodola']

On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 1:52 PM Mariatta Wijaya  wrote:
>
> > * Mariatta proposed to require to have a least one woman in that
> > council.
>
> > Why stop at women?
>
>
> My actual wording was: "not all white men", which actually means quite 
> different from "must include one woman".
>
> I don't appreciate you jumping straight to accusing me for discrimination. 
> Assume positive intent, and ask for clarity before scrutinizing and making 
> accusations.

"white men", "women", "slave"... Personally I find this tendency quite
worrying and discriminating and frankly I don't understand what it has
to do with a programming language nor why it's emerging only recently.
Whoever ends up in the council, approves a PEP, writes a patch, merges
a PR... I think that person should be elected based *entirely* on
their merits, not because of their gender or skin color. Electing
someone just to represent a minority doesn't have anything to do with
IT and cannot lead to a good outcome in the long run IMHO.
--
Giampaolo - http://grodola.blogspot.com
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Re: [python-committers] Council / board (Was: 1 week to Oct 1)

[Antoine Pitrou]

Le 25/09/2018 à 13:52, Mariatta Wijaya a écrit :
> I don't appreciate you jumping straight to accusing me for
> discrimination. Assume positive intent, and ask for clarity before
> scrutinizing and making accusations.

Not sure what you mean here.  What you are asking for is routinely
called, AFAIK, "positive discrimination".  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You ask me to assume positive intent, but you are the one assuming
negative intent on my part...

Regards

Antoine.
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Re: [python-committers] Council / board (Was: 1 week to Oct 1)

[Mariatta Wijaya]

> * Mariatta proposed to require to have a least one woman in that
> council.

> Why stop at women?


My actual wording was: "not all white men", which actually means quite
different from "must include one woman".

I don't appreciate you jumping straight to accusing me for discrimination.
Assume positive intent, and ask for clarity before scrutinizing and making
accusations.

My PEP will provide guideline on how members of the group should be
nominated, and it is a long list. It will not name names. Only once the PEP
has been accepted that people can nominate folks to fill the role, and
there will be another round of voting.

Some of the questions asked by Victor will be answered in the PEP that I'm
writing, so I will not answer now.
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Re: [python-committers] Council / board (Was: 1 week to Oct 1)

[Antoine Pitrou]

Hi,

Le 25/09/2018 à 12:14, Victor Stinner a écrit :
> 
> Since there are no concrete PEPs, I don't know where I should post my
> comments. I decided to send them here :-)
> 
> For the new council/board idea (group of 3 or 5 peoples):
> 
> * Can we require that each people comes from a different company? At
> least, require that no all of them work for the same company. I would
> mean that a member of this council would have to nominate someone else
> if they decide to move to a different company which already has ("too
> many") council members.

The details must be ironed out, but that sounds like a good idea.  There
were routinely concerns about  influencing the Python
development process.  Once it was Google, nowadays it seems to be Microsoft.

(admittedly, Google probably didn't influence us very much in the end,
but I'm not sure it's because we are immune to such a danger, rather
than Python simply not being an attractive target enough, as opposed to
e.g. Go or Javascript)

> * Mariatta proposed to require to have a least one woman in that
> council. What do you think of this idea? Honestly, I have no opinion
> yet, since I don't think this idea has been discussed enough yet. I
> would expect that only core developers could join the council and
> right now, there are 4 women core developers: Mariatta, Carol, Emily,
> Lisa.

Why stop at women?  There are many underrepresented groups.  You could
discriminate based on gender, skin colour, nationality, socio-economic
origins, etc.

The main problem, though, is we are talking about a very little group
chosen amongst a likely very small number of candidates (I don't expect
more than a dozen candidates, two dozens at most).  If you start doing
positive discrimination amongst such a small number of people, you
disrupt the democratic process (by which I mean voting) a *lot*.

Regards

Antoine.
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