Re: [python-committers] Promote Mark Sapiro and Abhilash Raj as core developers
Hi, To be honest, my first reaction is the same than Andrew and Antoine: I don't know these 2 contributors. I didn't see them around the bug tracker, reviews, nor in commits. The definition of what is a core developer is still a work-in-progress :-) The PEP 13 tries to define it: https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0013/#the-core-team I'm no longer sure myself that I can define them. I prefer to repeat what others say :-) Basically, a core developers is someone who produces commits :-) That's one definition. Another one is someone who a very good background to produce very good reviews and mentor contributors. In which case can we put Mark Sapiro and Abhilash Raj? Le jeu. 9 mai 2019 à 21:14, Andrew Svetlov a écrit : > > If you like the way mail.python.org and Mailman (both 2 and 3) Just Work, > > and are about as reliable as any service can be, we have our wonderful > > postmasters to thank. Mark has been a postmaster for years and is > > currently maintaining GNU Mailman, both as a project and as a service on > > mpo. Abhilash maintains the GNU Mailman 3 branch, has been project leader > > since I retired in that role back in 2017, and also maintains the Mailman 3 > > instance on mail.python.org. Having a sustainable Mailman project is great. But how does that relate to Python itself? Are you talking about the email module? Do Mark Sapiro and Abhilash Raj plan to maintain the email module? I found "Mark Sapiro" mentioned in 4 commits (3 in 2013, 1 in 2006). Abhilash Raj authored 1 commit in 2015 and 1 in 2014: both in the email module. Sorry, I didn't dig into the bug tracker / GitHub to check if they are active there. > > More than that, because of their roles as Mailman developers, they have a > > deep knowledge of email in general, and in the email package in particular. > > As I rarely dabble in the email package these days, and RDM --who did a > > fantastic job of implementing the new APIs and features in email for Python > > 3— has also scaled back his involvement, it means that the email package > > doesn’t get much attention these days. Both Mark and Abhilash have an > > interest in helping to maintain the email package moving forward, and both > > are eminently qualified to do so. I would prefer to first see them more involved upstream, before starting to discuss promoting them. They are other contributors who are way more active than them. In the meanwhile, they don't have to be core devs to help to maintain the email module, no? I'm not sure about giving the core dev status as a recognizition for their work on a different project. It sounds unfair to contributors who are working on Python but are not core dev. There are other ways to recognize valuable persons in the Python community, like the PSF Community Awards and PSF Fellows. Victor -- Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. ___ python-committers mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] Promote Mark Sapiro and Abhilash Raj as core developers
Le 13/05/2019 à 10:14, Victor Stinner a écrit : > > I would prefer to first see them more involved upstream, before > starting to discuss promoting them. They are other contributors who > are way more active than them. > > In the meanwhile, they don't have to be core devs to help to maintain > the email module, no? > > I'm not sure about giving the core dev status as a recognizition for > their work on a different project. It sounds unfair to contributors > who are working on Python but are not core dev. There are other ways > to recognize valuable persons in the Python community, like the PSF > Community Awards and PSF Fellows. I'll also point out that giving core dev status to people who are active on different projects but not CPython didn't lead to any significant results in the past (I'm thinking about e.g. the Twisted core devs). This is not a criticism about particular people, simply a reflection on our own practice. We should recognize that we don't attract active contributors by giving them status upfront. Regards Antoine. ___ python-committers mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] Promote Mark Sapiro and Abhilash Raj as core developers
On May 13, 2019, at 01:14, Victor Stinner wrote: > I'm no longer sure myself that I can define them. I prefer to repeat > what others say :-) Basically, a core developers is someone who > produces commits :-) That's one definition. But, IMHO not a correct one. The full quote from PEP 13: ——snip snip—— Python core team members demonstrate: • a good grasp of the philosophy of the Python Project • a solid track record of being constructive and helpful • significant contributions to the project's goals, in any form • willingness to dedicate some time to improving Python As the project matures, contributions go beyond code. Here's an incomplete list of areas where contributions may be considered for joining the core team, in no particular order: • Working on community management and outreach • Providing support on the mailing lists and on IRC • Triaging tickets • Writing patches (code, docs, or tests) • Reviewing patches (code, docs, or tests) • Participating in design decisions • Providing expertise in a particular domain (security, i18n, etc.) • Managing the continuous integration infrastructure • Managing the servers (website, tracker, documentation, etc.) • Maintaining related projects (alternative interpreters, core infrastructure like packaging, etc.) • Creating visual designs Core team membership acknowledges sustained and valuable efforts that align well with the philosophy and the goals of the Python project. ——snip snip—— I’m quite convinced that both Mark and Abhilash meet these requirements. And they are almost by definition the experts in the email package. You can certainly see the nature of their work in the Mailman repos, and I would be willing to mentor them through the first few commits to the CPython repo, though I think it will be mostly perfunctory. > Having a sustainable Mailman project is great. But how does that > relate to Python itself? Are you talking about the email module? Do > Mark Sapiro and Abhilash Raj plan to maintain the email module? Yes, that is the intent. > In the meanwhile, they don't have to be core devs to help to maintain > the email module, no? Do we have any core developers who want to maintain it? Not me :) and apparently not RDM. -Barry signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP ___ python-committers mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] Promote Mark Sapiro and Abhilash Raj as core developers
On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 4:11 PM Barry Warsaw wrote: > On May 13, 2019, at 01:14, Victor Stinner wrote: > > > I'm no longer sure myself that I can define them. I prefer to repeat > > what others say :-) Basically, a core developers is someone who > > produces commits :-) That's one definition. > > But, IMHO not a correct one. The full quote from PEP 13: > > ——snip snip—— > Python core team members demonstrate: > > • a good grasp of the philosophy of the Python Project > • a solid track record of being constructive and helpful > • significant contributions to the project's goals, in any form > • willingness to dedicate some time to improving Python > > As the project matures, contributions go beyond code. Here's an incomplete > list of areas where contributions may be considered for joining the core > team, in no particular order: > > • Working on community management and outreach > • Providing support on the mailing lists and on IRC > • Triaging tickets > • Writing patches (code, docs, or tests) > • Reviewing patches (code, docs, or tests) > • Participating in design decisions > • Providing expertise in a particular domain (security, i18n, etc.) > • Managing the continuous integration infrastructure > • Managing the servers (website, tracker, documentation, etc.) > • Maintaining related projects (alternative interpreters, core > infrastructure like packaging, etc.) > • Creating visual designs > > Core team membership acknowledges sustained and valuable efforts that > align well with the philosophy and the goals of the Python project. > ——snip snip—— > > I’m quite convinced that both Mark and Abhilash meet these requirements. > And they are almost by definition the experts in the email package. You > can certainly see the nature of their work in the Mailman repos, and I > would be willing to mentor them through the first few commits to the > CPython repo, though I think it will be mostly perfunctory. > > > Having a sustainable Mailman project is great. But how does that > > relate to Python itself? Are you talking about the email module? Do > > Mark Sapiro and Abhilash Raj plan to maintain the email module? > > Yes, that is the intent. > > > In the meanwhile, they don't have to be core devs to help to maintain > > the email module, no? > > Do we have any core developers who want to maintain it? Not me :) and > apparently not RDM. > I think these two make sense as email module maintainers from a demonstrated domain expertise point of view. But you'll probably have an easier time convincing others who want to see some PRs first if you just go ahead and have them do some work on the email module in the form of PRs to start with. ie: Don't let being dubbed core developers or not yet block you from starting to mentor them on initial email module maintenance. -gps > -Barry > > ___ > python-committers mailing list > [email protected] > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers > Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ > ___ python-committers mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] Promote Mark Sapiro and Abhilash Raj as core developers
On 5/13/2019 7:11 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote: On May 13, 2019, at 01:14, Victor Stinner wrote: I'm no longer sure myself that I can define them. I prefer to repeat what others say :-) Basically, a core developers is someone who produces commits :-) That's one definition. But, IMHO not a correct one. I think 'half complete' rather than 'not correct' is more accurate. There are two main effects of being granted 'core developer' status. 1. One may edit and merge PRs by onself or others into a python repository and in particular python/cypthon . This, expanded, is Victor's 'produce commits'. 2. One may participate in coredev-only discussions and votes. These are the activities that differentiate of a 'core developer' and it is not wrong to say that a core developer is one who may do these. The full quote from PEP 13: ——snip snip—— Python core team members demonstrate: • a good grasp of the philosophy of the Python Project • a solid track record of being constructive and helpful • significant contributions to the project's goals, in any form • willingness to dedicate some time to improving Python This are qualities and history that once should have to become a core developer. For producing commits, one should, in particular, understand the difference, as used here, between 'bug fix' and 'enhancement' and support the policy of not adding enhancements to x.y after x.y.0 (after .b1, actually). (The devguide says something about this, but I don't know if it is clear enough.) As the project matures, contributions go beyond code. Here's an incomplete list of areas where contributions may be considered for joining the core team, in no particular order: 'may', not 'should' or 'must'. Different existing coredevs may legitimately give these different weights. • Working on community management and outreach ... • Creating visual designs Neither of these two speak to being qualified to produce commits. Many of those I snipped do. Core team membership acknowledges sustained and valuable efforts that align well with the philosophy and the goals of the Python project. ——snip snip—— This sentence could be misinterpreted as saying that codedev status is an award for past contributions rather than an enabling greater future contributions. Summarizing the general considerations, I have two questions for any candidate. 1. Do you want to become a core developer and do you intend to use the commit privilege? If not, the question is not worth our time. 2. Do you understand our definition of 'bug fix' versus 'enhancement' and how and why the difference is important. If not, --- I’m quite convinced that both Mark and Abhilash meet these requirements. And they are almost by definition the experts in the email package. You can certainly see the nature of their work in the Mailman repos, and I would be willing to mentor them through the first few commits to the CPython repo, though I think it will be mostly perfunctory. Having a sustainable Mailman project is great. But how does that relate to Python itself? Are you talking about the email module? Do Mark Sapiro and Abhilash Raj plan to maintain the email module? Yes, that is the intent. In the meanwhile, they don't have to be core devs to help to maintain the email module, no? Do we have any core developers who want to maintain it? Not me :) and apparently not RDM. I searched the tracker for open issues with the email component marked. I was somewhat surprised to see 151, which is about the number for IDLE a few years ago. We definitely need an active core developer working on email and team of two who can work together and check each other's work would be good. (If and when we do, I can give suggestions, if asked, on managing such an intimidating pile.) -- Terry ___ python-committers mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
