Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 468 (Ordered kwargs)
Hi all, On 24 January 2015 at 11:50, Maciej Fijalkowski fij...@gmail.com wrote: I would like to point out that we implemented rhettingers idea in PyPy that makes all the dicts ordered by default and we don't have any adverse performance effects (in fact, there is quite significant memory saving coming from it). The measurments on CPython could be different, but in principle OrderedDict can be implemented as efficiently as normal dict. I would like to add that http://bugs.python.org/issue16991 is the same as today's dicts with an additional doubly-linked list for the order. I'm unsure why you would do that after the 2012 thread started by Raymond Hettinger, but anyway, don't conclude from only this that in the CPython case ordered dictionaries would be slower and bigger. My guess is that, with a simple port of what is now in PyPy, they would not be (but of course no-one can be sure at this point). Let's say, if you could imagine that CPython's dictionaries, tomorrow, are always magically fully ordered, then would it still be a bad idea? If such a discussion would resurface (soon or one day), and if other related issues are resolved (like what to do in Jython and IronPython), and if the conclusion would tentatively turn out positive... then, provided there would at that point still be no Raymond-style implementation of dicts, I would volunteer to port PyPy's one to CPython[1]. As you may have guessed I don't consider this particularly likely to occur, but it is a standing offer nevertheless :-) A bientôt, Armin. [1] Someone could also do such a port for the goal of getting an alternate `odictobject.c`. He would be welcome to #pypy to get some help from the PyPy guys, including me --- but my offer above doesn't apply in this case. I want to remove a thorn in the foot of python-dev discussing about the language; I'm not really interested in contributing to the `collections.OrderedDict` type. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Pydoc Replacement for Python's help()?
On 1/27/2015 8:04 AM, Cyd Haselton wrote: Noted. Will proceed with the 3.x releass. I had been excited you were working on Android Python until I realized you were working on 2.x. I started with Python 3, and have only dabbled in 2.x for a couple projects that had unported dependency needs. One of them, reportlab, was ported in the last year, and the other is my web server CGI ports which is still constrained by a couple libraries, and although I think they may have recently been ported, I haven't had time to upgrade it. Probably will by April, when I have to ditch my Google OpenID login system, because they have abandoned it. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Pydoc Replacement for Python's help()?
On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 2:26 PM, Skip Montanaro skip.montan...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 12:49 PM, Cyd Haselton chasel...@gmail.com wrote: Unfortunately, as I quickly found out, Python's built-in help function requires tkinter, which requires tcl/tk. I'm a little confused. Are you using some sort of freeze system which is deciding Tkinter is required? I use help() all the time from the interpreter prompt and never get a GUI. IMO you should be able to strip out the gui() function (or even just comment out the Tkinter import). Skip I'm not using a freeze system, just the python I built from sources. I may have misread the pydoc and help() documentation online. Additionally it appears as though some modules were not built with the correct links to -lc -ldl, even though I added them as dependencies in Setup and setup.py, as well as in the appropriate env variables. Importing string, tokenize, operator, inspect...and probably others I haven't tested...throw the 'undefined reference to dlopen' error. Looks like I'll need to run make distclean and start over. Is there documentation on which modules are built where and how and with which libraries they are linked? ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Pydoc Replacement for Python's help()?
On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 6:31 AM, Cyd Haselton chasel...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 2:26 PM, Skip Montanaro skip.montan...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 12:49 PM, Cyd Haselton chasel...@gmail.com wrote: Unfortunately, as I quickly found out, Python's built-in help function requires tkinter, which requires tcl/tk. I'm a little confused. Are you using some sort of freeze system which is deciding Tkinter is required? I use help() all the time from the interpreter prompt and never get a GUI. IMO you should be able to strip out the gui() function (or even just comment out the Tkinter import). Skip I'm not using a freeze system, just the python I built from sources. I may have misread the pydoc and help() documentation online. Additionally it appears as though some modules were not built with the correct links to -lc -ldl, even though I added them as dependencies in Setup and setup.py, as well as in the appropriate env variables. Importing string, tokenize, operator, inspect...and probably others I haven't tested...throw the 'undefined reference to dlopen' error. Looks like I'll need to run make distclean and start over. Is there documentation on which modules are built where and how and with which libraries they are linked? A quick FYI: The decision to build 2.7.8 (instead of 3.x) on Android was made after reading this article: https://wiki.python.org/moin/Python2orPython3 ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Pydoc Replacement for Python's help()?
On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 6:46 AM, Cyd Haselton chasel...@gmail.com wrote: A quick FYI: The decision to build 2.7.8 (instead of 3.x) on Android was made after reading this article: https://wiki.python.org/moin/Python2orPython3 What in that document convinced you to port to Python 2 instead of Python 3? That page is intended for people deciding which version of the language to use for their work. I would think as someone trying to port to a new platform your criteria would be different. Also, note that the above page was last updated in April 2014. Look at the info for that page: https://wiki.python.org/moin/Python2orPython3?action=info and you'll see there was probably nothing of substance added to that page in over a year. Right at the very top of that page, I read: Short version: Python 2.x is legacy, Python 3.x is the present and future of the language I would think that would be enough to convince you to use Python 3.x as your starting point. I say this as someone who, in his day-to-day work uses Python 2.7 exclusively, doesn't expect his employer to ever convert to Python 3, and has never done much more with Python 3 than build it. With all that, if I was going to attempt a port of Python to a new platform, I would still choose to port Python 3. Skip ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Pydoc Replacement for Python's help()?
On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Zachary Ware zachary.ware+py...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 12:49 PM, Cyd Haselton chasel...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, I've finally managed to build a (somewhat) working Python port for the Android tablet I'm using. Unfortunately, as I quickly found out, Python's built-in help function requires tkinter, which requires tcl/tk. What version of Python are you building, and how did you call help that it seems to want to use tkinter? The pydoc GUI was removed from the 3.x series long ago, and should only be activated in 2.7 if you call it as 'pydoc -g ...' from the command line (or use pydoc.gui() directly). -- Zach I'm using version 2.7.8. I'm calling help() from within the python interpreter. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Pydoc Replacement for Python's help()?
On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Glenn Linderman v+pyt...@g.nevcal.com wrote: On 1/27/2015 8:04 AM, Cyd Haselton wrote: Noted. Will proceed with the 3.x releass. I had been excited you were working on Android Python until I realized you were working on 2.x. I started with Python 3, and have only dabbled in 2.x for a couple projects that had unported dependency needs. One of them, reportlab, was ported in the last year, and the other is my web server CGI ports which is still constrained by a couple libraries, and although I think they may have recently been ported, I haven't had time to upgrade it. Probably will by April, when I have to ditch my Google OpenID login system, because they have abandoned it. Well, you can start being cautiously excited again now that I'm working on the 3.4.2 release. I use cautiously for several reasons...chief among them being the severely limited Android libc. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 468 (Ordered kwargs)
On Tue Jan 27 2015 at 2:13:08 PM Armin Rigo ar...@tunes.org wrote: Hi all, On 24 January 2015 at 11:50, Maciej Fijalkowski fij...@gmail.com wrote: I would like to point out that we implemented rhettingers idea in PyPy that makes all the dicts ordered by default and we don't have any adverse performance effects (in fact, there is quite significant memory saving coming from it). The measurments on CPython could be different, but in principle OrderedDict can be implemented as efficiently as normal dict. I would like to add that http://bugs.python.org/issue16991 is the same as today's dicts with an additional doubly-linked list for the order. I'm unsure why you would do that after the 2012 thread started by Raymond Hettinger, but anyway, don't conclude from only this that in the CPython case ordered dictionaries would be slower and bigger. My guess is that, with a simple port of what is now in PyPy, they would not be (but of course no-one can be sure at this point). Let's say, if you could imagine that CPython's dictionaries, tomorrow, are always magically fully ordered, then would it still be a bad idea? It is a potentially bad idea if order is the default behavior of iteration, items(), keys() and values(). Ideally order should only be exposed when explicitly asked for to help prevent bugs and mitigate potential information leaks. But I'm not sure how big of a deal this actually is. The insertion order nicely doesn't give away anything related to the hash seed used for hash randomization which is a nice bonus over today's implementation (and 2.7 3.3's very poor hash randomization implementation). Experience cleaning up our huge code base at work to turn on hash randomization by default a couple years ago has shown that people depend on iteration order in code often without intending to. This often leads to latent bugs. Keep iteration order unstable by default and you prevent people from doing that. Make people request an ordered or stable iteration when their code explicitly needs it. If such a discussion would resurface (soon or one day), and if other related issues are resolved (like what to do in Jython and IronPython), and if the conclusion would tentatively turn out positive... then, provided there would at that point still be no Raymond-style implementation of dicts, I would volunteer to port PyPy's one to CPython[1]. As you may have guessed I don't consider this particularly likely to occur, but it is a standing offer nevertheless :-) CPython should benefit from it regardless for the memory savings alone. -gps A bientôt, Armin. [1] Someone could also do such a port for the goal of getting an alternate `odictobject.c`. He would be welcome to #pypy to get some help from the PyPy guys, including me --- but my offer above doesn't apply in this case. I want to remove a thorn in the foot of python-dev discussing about the language; I'm not really interested in contributing to the `collections.OrderedDict` type. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/ greg%40krypto.org ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Python-Dev] Undefined reference to dlopen (was: Pydoc Replacement for Python's help()?)
On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 6:31 AM, Cyd Haselton chasel...@gmail.com wrote: Additionally it appears as though some modules were not built with the correct links to -lc -ldl, even though I added them as dependencies in Setup and setup.py, as well as in the appropriate env variables. Importing string, tokenize, operator, inspect...and probably others I haven't tested...throw the 'undefined reference to dlopen' error. Is this another topic? If so, please start another thread. People glancing at subjects won't recognize that you're now tackling a different problem. The modules you mention here (as well as pydoc) are all pure Python modules. I don't think any of them would have directly triggered a dlopen error. Do you have a traceback? Skip ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Undefined reference to dlopen (was: Pydoc Replacement for Python's help()?)
On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 6:52 AM, Skip Montanaro skip.montan...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 6:31 AM, Cyd Haselton chasel...@gmail.com wrote: Additionally it appears as though some modules were not built with the correct links to -lc -ldl, even though I added them as dependencies in Setup and setup.py, as well as in the appropriate env variables. Importing string, tokenize, operator, inspect...and probably others I haven't tested...throw the 'undefined reference to dlopen' error. Is this another topic? If so, please start another thread. People glancing at subjects won't recognize that you're now tackling a different problem. The modules you mention here (as well as pydoc) are all pure Python modules. I don't think any of them would have directly triggered a dlopen error. Do you have a traceback? Skip Apologies for the confusion; the above was not intended to be another topic but an explanation of why the help() module failed in my port and why I believe I'll need to start over. Basically...between my original email and the one above, I managed to review the pydoc.py code, test the imports in said code and discover ones (not tkinter) that were causing errors. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Pydoc Replacement for Python's help()?
On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 9:07 AM, Skip Montanaro skip.montan...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 6:46 AM, Cyd Haselton chasel...@gmail.com wrote: A quick FYI: The decision to build 2.7.8 (instead of 3.x) on Android was made after reading this article: https://wiki.python.org/moin/Python2orPython3 What in that document convinced you to port to Python 2 instead of Python 3? Among other things, the points immediately following this part: However, there are some key issues that may require you to use Python 2 rather than Python 3. That page is intended for people deciding which version of the language to use for their work. I would think as someone trying to port to a new platform your criteria would be different. Also, note that the above page was last updated in April 2014. Look at the info for that page: https://wiki.python.org/moin/Python2orPython3?action=info and you'll see there was probably nothing of substance added to that page in over a year. Something to keep in mind is that i'm using an Android tablet for building and troubleshooting errors...which means webpages have different layouts. The change date for the wiki page I referenced is wy down at the bottom, in extra small, faint type. I wasn't aware the info was for those using Python. Right at the very top of that page, I read: Short version: Python 2.x is legacy, Python 3.x is the present and future of the language I would think that would be enough to convince you to use Python 3.x as your starting point. It was, initially, until I read (most of) the rest of the article I say this as someone who, in his day-to-day work uses Python 2.7 exclusively, doesn't expect his employer to ever convert to Python 3, and has never done much more with Python 3 than build it. With all that, if I was going to attempt a port of Python to a new platform, I would still choose to port Python 3. Skip Noted. Will proceed with the 3.x releass. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
