[Python-Dev] Re: How to respond to repeated bad ideas

[Serhiy Storchaka]

03.03.20 01:03, Skip Montanaro пише:

Atm we don't have an index of ideas, apart from pep 3099, and I'm not sure we 
can make one (can we?), so I do not see a way to prevent this from happening.


Maybe an informational PEP which briefly lists rejected ideas?


There is a risk to accept this PEP as it happened to PEP 572 which was 
initially created with a similar purpose.

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[Python-Dev] Re: How to respond to repeated bad ideas

[Kyle Stanley]

> In most cases of a first-time poster that I've seen, the poster probably
doesn't have the understanding needed to conduct a proper search of the
mailing list. That's why I suggest responding with some genuine help (i.e.
taking their idea at face value and explaining what's wrong with it).

It might also be helpful to directly link to a few of those past
discussions; particularly if they had some relevant responses that could
provide some valuable insight for the OP. I've done this a few times, and
mentioned that if they want to still proceed with their idea, they'd have
to address the previous concerns brought up. IMO, this provides a good
balance of avoiding an exact repetition of past discussions, providing the
OP with some answers, and in a best case scenario the OP might have valid
counterarguments to the previous reason(s) the proposal was rejected.

On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 10:12 PM Guido van Rossum  wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 2:42 PM Bar Harel  wrote:
>
>> What I usually do btw is just search on mailman. Perhaps we can guide
>> people to search on mailman before suggesting an idea?
>>
>
> We could add that suggestion to the "welcome to this list" email. I
> honestly don't know if we send out such emails, but Mailman (3) seems to
> have that capability.
>
> But I doubt that many users will follow that advice. In most cases of a
> first-time poster that I've seen, the poster probably doesn't have the
> understanding needed to conduct a proper search of the mailing list. That's
> why I suggest responding with some genuine help (i.e. taking their idea at
> face value and explaining what's wrong with it). For example, Andrew
> Barnert does this excellently in many of his python-ideas posts. Many posts
> by Steven D'Aprano are also good examples. In the past, Tim Peters was the
> champion of this style.
>
> On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 3:03 PM Skip Montanaro 
> wrote:
>
>> > Atm we don't have an index of ideas, apart from pep 3099, and I'm not
>> sure we can make one (can we?), so I do not see a way to prevent this from
>> happening.
>>
>> Maybe an informational PEP which briefly lists rejected ideas?
>> Presumably, they'd normally come up in python-ideas, python-list or
>> python-dev. Each rejected idea could link to one or more relevant
>> threads in one of those lists. Not sure who should be the gatemasters
>> for new bad ideas.
>>
>
> At least for python-ideas, that sounds a lot like an exhaustive list of
> all threads in that list. :-)
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
> *Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*
> 
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[Python-Dev] Re: How to respond to repeated bad ideas

[Guido van Rossum]

On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 2:42 PM Bar Harel  wrote:

> What I usually do btw is just search on mailman. Perhaps we can guide
> people to search on mailman before suggesting an idea?
>

We could add that suggestion to the "welcome to this list" email. I
honestly don't know if we send out such emails, but Mailman (3) seems to
have that capability.

But I doubt that many users will follow that advice. In most cases of a
first-time poster that I've seen, the poster probably doesn't have the
understanding needed to conduct a proper search of the mailing list. That's
why I suggest responding with some genuine help (i.e. taking their idea at
face value and explaining what's wrong with it). For example, Andrew
Barnert does this excellently in many of his python-ideas posts. Many posts
by Steven D'Aprano are also good examples. In the past, Tim Peters was the
champion of this style.

On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 3:03 PM Skip Montanaro 
wrote:

> > Atm we don't have an index of ideas, apart from pep 3099, and I'm not
> sure we can make one (can we?), so I do not see a way to prevent this from
> happening.
>
> Maybe an informational PEP which briefly lists rejected ideas?
> Presumably, they'd normally come up in python-ideas, python-list or
> python-dev. Each rejected idea could link to one or more relevant
> threads in one of those lists. Not sure who should be the gatemasters
> for new bad ideas.
>

At least for python-ideas, that sounds a lot like an exhaustive list of all
threads in that list. :-)

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*

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[Python-Dev] Re: How to respond to repeated bad ideas

[Skip Montanaro]

> Atm we don't have an index of ideas, apart from pep 3099, and I'm not sure we 
> can make one (can we?), so I do not see a way to prevent this from happening.

Maybe an informational PEP which briefly lists rejected ideas?
Presumably, they'd normally come up in python-ideas, python-list or
python-dev. Each rejected idea could link to one or more relevant
threads in one of those lists. Not sure who should be the gatemasters
for new bad ideas.

Skip
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[Python-Dev] Re: How to respond to repeated bad ideas

[Bar Harel]

What I usually do btw is just search on mailman. Perhaps we can guide
people to search on mailman before suggesting an idea?

On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 12:30 AM Bar Harel  wrote:

> I wrote it and take full responsibility, did not mean to be disrespectful.
> Afterall, it's not what any of us are here for.
>
> For repeated suggestions though, that were rejected once or more in the
> past, what are the general guidelines of answering?
> In this case, apart from the rejection reason, we wish to teach the newbie
> how to check if an idea was already suggested, else his ideas would just be
> rejected over and over again.
>
> Atm we don't have an index of ideas, apart from pep 3099, and I'm not sure
> we can make one (can we?), so I do not see a way to prevent this from
> happening.
>
> I bet that many ideas are repeated, we don't know it, and it therefore
> causes a repeated discussion with time and effort going nowhere.
>
> Just to clarify, my aim by answering it this way was to reduce the overall
> effort of both sides, and the attempt to reinvent the wheel. It's much like
> how duplicate stackoverflow questions are closed.
>
> On Mon, Mar 2, 2020, 11:58 PM Guido van Rossum  wrote:
>
>> Somebody wrote, in response to a newbie's idea:
>>
>>> This idea is proposed at least once a year. You're able to read past
>>> discussions on python-ideas for the full list of rejection reasons.
>>>
>>
>> This   needs to go. It's unfair to the newbie, and I bet that in most
>> cases whoever posts this doesn't have the slightest idea on how to find the
>> specific rejection reason for the idea to which they're responding. I agree
>> that many bad ideas come up repeatedly. But unless the proposer is a
>> regular harasser of one of the lists, a response like this is unhelpful.
>> Even if an idea is bad, let's respond in a friendly way, so the OP actually
>> learns something about how Python is designed, or how it works, or whatever
>> is relevant to understanding why their idea won't fly.
>>
>> --
>> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
>> *Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*
>> 
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>
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[Python-Dev] Re: How to respond to repeated bad ideas

[Bar Harel]

I wrote it and take full responsibility, did not mean to be disrespectful.
Afterall, it's not what any of us are here for.

For repeated suggestions though, that were rejected once or more in the
past, what are the general guidelines of answering?
In this case, apart from the rejection reason, we wish to teach the newbie
how to check if an idea was already suggested, else his ideas would just be
rejected over and over again.

Atm we don't have an index of ideas, apart from pep 3099, and I'm not sure
we can make one (can we?), so I do not see a way to prevent this from
happening.

I bet that many ideas are repeated, we don't know it, and it therefore
causes a repeated discussion with time and effort going nowhere.

Just to clarify, my aim by answering it this way was to reduce the overall
effort of both sides, and the attempt to reinvent the wheel. It's much like
how duplicate stackoverflow questions are closed.

On Mon, Mar 2, 2020, 11:58 PM Guido van Rossum  wrote:

> Somebody wrote, in response to a newbie's idea:
>
>> This idea is proposed at least once a year. You're able to read past
>> discussions on python-ideas for the full list of rejection reasons.
>>
>
> This   needs to go. It's unfair to the newbie, and I bet that in most
> cases whoever posts this doesn't have the slightest idea on how to find the
> specific rejection reason for the idea to which they're responding. I agree
> that many bad ideas come up repeatedly. But unless the proposer is a
> regular harasser of one of the lists, a response like this is unhelpful.
> Even if an idea is bad, let's respond in a friendly way, so the OP actually
> learns something about how Python is designed, or how it works, or whatever
> is relevant to understanding why their idea won't fly.
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
> *Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*
> 
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[Python-Dev] How to respond to repeated bad ideas

[Guido van Rossum]

Somebody wrote, in response to a newbie's idea:

> This idea is proposed at least once a year. You're able to read past
> discussions on python-ideas for the full list of rejection reasons.
>

This old chestnut needs to go. It's unfair to the newbie, and I bet that in
most cases whoever posts this doesn't have the slightest idea on how to
find the specific rejection reason for the idea to which they're
responding. I agree that many bad ideas come up repeatedly. But unless the
proposer is a regular harasser of one of the lists, a response like this is
unhelpful. Even if an idea is bad, let's respond in a friendly way, so the
OP actually learns something about how Python is designed, or how it works,
or whatever is relevant to understanding why their idea won't fly.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*

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[Python-Dev] Re: new syntax

[Bar Harel]

This idea is proposed at least once a year. You're able to read past
discussions on python-ideas for the full list of rejection reasons.

On Mon, Mar 2, 2020, 11:28 PM Mariatta  wrote:

> -1 from me.
>
> Seems unintuitive and I don't think it's all that obvious what
> intput/floatput would mean without first reading the docs. It adds
> maintenance burden while accomplishing little value.
>
> You might be able to just create your own third party library though.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 2, 2020, 1:11 PM Luca Wolf  wrote:
>
>> Dear Python Team,
>>
>> I have a good idea for a new comand in Python.
>>
>> It’s „intput()“ for numbers. So you don’t have to write „int(Input())“.
>>
>> It’s much easier to write and it’s faster too.
>>
>> You can use the same for „floatput()“, so don’t have to write
>> „float(Input())“.
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope you can make something good with this idea.
>>
>> LG: Wolf Luca
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>>
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[Python-Dev] Re: new syntax

[Mariatta]

-1 from me.

Seems unintuitive and I don't think it's all that obvious what
intput/floatput would mean without first reading the docs. It adds
maintenance burden while accomplishing little value.

You might be able to just create your own third party library though.



On Mon, Mar 2, 2020, 1:11 PM Luca Wolf  wrote:

> Dear Python Team,
>
> I have a good idea for a new comand in Python.
>
> It’s „intput()“ for numbers. So you don’t have to write „int(Input())“.
>
> It’s much easier to write and it’s faster too.
>
> You can use the same for „floatput()“, so don’t have to write
> „float(Input())“.
>
>
>
> I hope you can make something good with this idea.
>
> LG: Wolf Luca
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[Python-Dev] Re: new syntax

[Chris Angelico]

On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:06 AM Luca Wolf  wrote:
>
> Dear Python Team,
>
> I have a good idea for a new comand in Python.
>
> It’s „intput()“ for numbers. So you don’t have to write „int(Input())“.
>
> It’s much easier to write and it’s faster too.
>
> You can use the same for „floatput()“, so don’t have to write 
> „float(Input())“.
>
>
>
> I hope you can make something good with this idea.
>

Put this at the top of your program:

def intput(p=""): return int(input(p))
def floatput(p=""): return float(input(p))

There! Done :)

BTW, ideas like these generally want to go to python-ideas, not
python-dev; or for some of them, python-list is appropriate too, as
you'll often get responses showing how you can do it with existing
Python versions.

ChrisA
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[Python-Dev] new syntax

[Luca Wolf]

Dear Python Team,
I have a good idea for a new comand in Python.
It’s „intput()“ for numbers. So you don’t have to write „int(Input())“.
It’s much easier to write and it’s faster too.
You can use the same for „floatput()“, so don’t have to write „float(Input())“.

I hope you can make something good with this idea.
LG: Wolf Luca
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