Re: [Python-Dev] And the winner is...
Op maandag 30-03-2009 om 21:54 uur [tijdzone -0500], schreef Guido van Rossum: But is his humility enough to cancel out Linus's attitude? I hope not, or the /.-crowd would become desperate... ;-) -- Jan Claeys ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] And the winner is...
2009/4/1 Tres Seaver tsea...@palladion.com: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: I also just wrote a long post about the comparison of bzr to hg responding to a comment on baz...@canonical.com. I won't recap it here but it might be of interest. Thank you very much for your writeups on that thread: both in tone and in content I found them extremely helpful. Agreed. Paul ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] And the winner is...
Mike Coleman wrote: Just for curiosity's sake, could someone outline the five (or so) most significant pluses of hg relative to git? Every single git command line example I have seen gives me exactly the same gut reaction I get whenever I have to read Perl code. You can extol the tool's virtues to me all day long, but you're never going to eliminate that visceral horror at its interface, any more than someone that loves Perl is going to have any luck convincing me that it really can be a sane choice of language for anything more than write-once-read-never throwaway scripts. Note that it *isn't* the idea of a using a directed acyclic graph in general that bothers me (since all DVCSs are pretty much forced to do that): it's specifically the way the sensibilities of git's original audience are reflected in the CLI, and the subsequent offense to my own personal sense of aesthetics :) The Mercurial and Bazaar interfaces on the other hand, both seemed perfectly palatable (e.g. a bit more inclined to use words over arcane symbols), and Hg appears to be a clear winner against Bazaar when it comes to performance *right now*. So Guido's intuition actually sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia --- ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] And the winner is...
2009/3/31 Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com Mike Coleman wrote: Just for curiosity's sake, could someone outline the five (or so) most significant pluses of hg relative to git? Every single git command line example I have seen gives me exactly the same gut reaction I get whenever I have to read Perl code. You can extol the tool's virtues to me all day long, but you're never going to eliminate that visceral horror at its interface, any more than someone that loves Perl is going to have any luck convincing me that it really can be a sane choice of language for anything more than write-once-read-never throwaway scripts. Note that it *isn't* the idea of a using a directed acyclic graph in general that bothers me (since all DVCSs are pretty much forced to do that): it's specifically the way the sensibilities of git's original audience are reflected in the CLI, and the subsequent offense to my own personal sense of aesthetics :) The Mercurial and Bazaar interfaces on the other hand, both seemed perfectly palatable (e.g. a bit more inclined to use words over arcane symbols), and Hg appears to be a clear winner against Bazaar when it comes to performance *right now*. So Guido's intuition actually sounds perfectly reasonable to me. It's also about what the community prefers. Git was eliminated because it didn't offer some stellar feature that warranted forcing core developers to use it when my little survey clearly showed it was the most disliked. Hg was chosen (in my view) because the community wanted it; after I said Git was out I had a lot of people come up to me stating their preference for Mercurial. Once again, while Bazaar would have been fine, there was not leaping out at me to cause me to think that I should potentially alienate part of the community by going against their preference. -Brett ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] And the winner is...
Aahz wrote: On Mon, Mar 30, 2009, Terry Reedy wrote: Michael Urman wrote: Guido: We're switching to Mercurial (Hg). And two hours later, GNOME announces their migration to git is underway. I'd suspect a series of April Fools jokes, if it weren't two days early. :) Like Python, Gnome was/is using SVN and tested (at least) GIT, bzr, and hg mirrors, starting somewhat earlier than Python, for DVCS migration. As announced in January, the majority of *their* developers preferred GIT. They started conversion then, in January, and made a progress announcement on March 19 (not yesterday). http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnome.devel.announce/15 I fail to see any joke. Different people have different tool preferences. As Michael said, joke suspicion comes from the timing. In private email, he explained that the py-dev announcement from Guido landed in his mailbox right next to a 'gnome-dev' request to cease commits until the GIT changeover was complete. That coincidence, coupled with his personal git preference and not having closely followed the evaluating process of either group, lead to his reaction. He also disavowed any intention to start a new bikeshed discussion. Terry ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] And the winner is...
On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 9:54 PM, Guido van Rossum gu...@python.org wrote: Yeah, I also think I'll just stop developing Python now and suggest that you all switch to Java, which has clearly won the mindshare war for languages. :-) Heh. :-) Guess I should have said mindshare among people whose technical opinions I give weight to. In that sense, Python mindshare seems to have been and to still be increasing steadily. (My Magic 8-ball says future unclear for Java.) The TIOBE index is entertaining, if you haven't seen it before: http://www.tiobe.com/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html But is his humility enough to cancel out Linus's attitude? Why would I want to do that? :-) Seriously--thanks for all of your responses. If it wasn't clear, I was asking because I was curious about whether and why I should look some more at hg. I would never dream of trying to change anyone's mind... Mike ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] And the winner is...
Nick Coghlan writes: Every single git command line example I have seen gives me exactly the same gut reaction I get whenever I have to read Perl code. Every single one? Sounds to me like the cause is probably something you ate, not anything you read. In the examples in the PEP, about 80% of the commands were syntactically identical across VCSes. I hope nobody is put off either git or bzr by the result of this PEP. If there's anything striking about the PEP's examples, it's how similar the usage of the VCSes would be in the context of Python's workflow. There are important differences, and I agree with Guido's choice, for Python, on March 30, 2009. But all three are capable VCSes, with advantages and disadvantages, and were this PEP started next June rather than last December, the result could have been very different. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] And the winner is...
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 12:31 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull step...@xemacs.org wrote: I also just wrote a long post about the comparison of bzr to hg responding to a comment on baz...@canonical.com. I won't recap it here but it might be of interest. I found the post interesting. Here's a link to the start of the thread: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/bazaar/2009q1/055805.html There's a bit of bafflement there regarding Python culture. I can relate--although I love Python, I don't feel like I understand the culture either. It wouldn't be that hard to do a rewrite in Python, but the git programmers are mostly kernel people. They write in C and shell. I mentioned this once on the git list and Linus' response was something like C lets me see exactly what's going on. I'm not unsympathetic to this point of view--I'm really growing to loathe C++ partly because it *doesn't* let me see exactly what's going on--but I'm not convinced, either. It looks like there might be a Python clone sprouting here: http://gitorious.org/projects/git-python/ People who lean toward the DAG as *recording* history will prefer Mercurial or Bazaar. People who tend to see the DAG as a tool for *presenting* changes will prefer git. I've noticed this tension as well. It seems to me that both uses are important, so I suspect all three will eventually steal each other's features with respect to this over time. Mike ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] And the winner is...
Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: Nick Coghlan writes: Every single git command line example I have seen gives me exactly the same gut reaction I get whenever I have to read Perl code. Every single one? Sounds to me like the cause is probably something you ate, not anything you read. In the examples in the PEP, about 80% of the commands were syntactically identical across VCSes. What, hyperbole on the internets? ;) The non-trivial examples are the ones I was talking about - as you say, for trivial tasks, the only difference is typically going to be in the exact name of the command. I hope nobody is put off either git or bzr by the result of this PEP. If there's anything striking about the PEP's examples, it's how similar the usage of the VCSes would be in the context of Python's workflow. There are important differences, and I agree with Guido's choice, for Python, on March 30, 2009. But all three are capable VCSes, with advantages and disadvantages, and were this PEP started next June rather than last December, the result could have been very different. Indeed! (although I doubt git's CLI will ever evolve into anything I could claim to love) Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia --- ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] And the winner is...
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Mike Coleman tutu...@gmail.com wrote: It looks like there might be a Python clone sprouting here: http://gitorious.org/projects/git-python/ AFAIK, git-python is just a lib to manipulate git repos from python, not a git clone. Dulwich is more like it: http://samba.org/~jelmer/dulwich/ -- Eduardo de Oliveira Padoan http://importskynet.blogspot.com http://djangopeople.net/edcrypt/ Distrust those in whom the desire to punish is strong. -- Goethe, Nietzsche, Dostoevsky ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] And the winner is...
Mike Coleman wrote: I mentioned this once on the git list and Linus' response was something like C lets me see exactly what's going on. I'm not unsympathetic to this point of view--I'm really growing to loathe C++ partly because it *doesn't* let me see exactly what's going on--but I'm not convinced, either. I think Python lets you see exactly what's going on too, at the level of abstraction you're working with. The problem with C++ is that it indiscriminately mixes up wildly different levels of abstraction, so that it's hard to look at a piece of code and decide whether it's doing something high-level or low-level. Python takes a uniformly high-level view of everything, which is fine for the vast majority of application programming, I think -- VCSes included. -- Greg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] And the winner is...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: I also just wrote a long post about the comparison of bzr to hg responding to a comment on baz...@canonical.com. I won't recap it here but it might be of interest. Thank you very much for your writeups on that thread: both in tone and in content I found them extremely helpful. Tres. - -- === Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tsea...@palladion.com Palladion Software Excellence by Designhttp://palladion.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFJ0riB+gerLs4ltQ4RAir2AJ4rXedI4gfkaZxP5LRiOSonAI/csQCgqkpb CY6QHmE8VHpGYGaENeUMnXQ= =t/1R -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] And the winner is...
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 5:42 PM, Tres Seaver tsea...@palladion.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: I also just wrote a long post about the comparison of bzr to hg responding to a comment on baz...@canonical.com. I won't recap it here but it might be of interest. Thank you very much for your writeups on that thread: both in tone and in content I found them extremely helpful. I'd like to read that thread for my edification -- might there be a URL for it perhaps...? Thanks, Alex ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] And the winner is...
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 5:42 PM, Tres Seaver tsea...@palladion.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: I also just wrote a long post about the comparison of bzr to hg responding to a comment on baz...@canonical.com. I won't recap it here but it might be of interest. Thank you very much for your writeups on that thread: both in tone and in content I found them extremely helpful. I'd like to read that thread for my edification -- might there be a URL for it perhaps...? Thanks, Alex ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] And the winner is...
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 6:33 PM, Alexandre Vassalotti alexan...@peadrop.com wrote: ... html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/bazaar/2009q1/055850.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/bazaar/2009q1/055872.html Perfect, thanks! Alex ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] And the winner is...
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 6:33 PM, Alexandre Vassalotti alexan...@peadrop.com wrote: ... html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/bazaar/2009q1/055850.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/bazaar/2009q1/055872.html Perfect, thanks! Alex ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Python-Dev] And the winner is...
Dear Python developers, The decision is made! I've selected a DVCS to use for Python. We're switching to Mercurial (Hg). The implementation and schedule is still up in the air -- I am hoping that we can switch before the summer. It's hard to explain my reasons for choosing -- like most language decisions (especially the difficult ones) it's mostly a matter of gut feelings. One thing I know is that it's better to decide now than to spend another year discussing the pros and cons. All that could be said has been said, pretty much, and my mind is made up. To me, the advantages of using *some* DVCS are obvious. At PyCon, Brett already announced that Git was no longer being considered -- while it has obviously many fans, it also provokes strong antipathies. So it was between Hg and Bzr (both of which happen to be implemented in Python FWIW). Based on a completely unscientific poll (basically whatever feedback I received in my personal inbox or on Twitter), Hg has a strong following among Python developers and few detractors, while few (except Canonical employees) seem to like Bzr. In addition, most timing experiments point towards Hg being faster than Bzr for most operations, and Hg is (again, subjectively) easier to learn for SVN users than Bzr. -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] And the winner is...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Guido van Rossum wrote: The decision is made! I've selected a DVCS to use for Python. We're switching to Mercurial (Hg). Bravo. - -- Jesus Cea Avion _/_/ _/_/_/_/_/_/ j...@jcea.es - http://www.jcea.es/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ jabber / xmpp:j...@jabber.org _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ . _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/ Things are not so easy _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ My name is Dump, Core Dump _/_/_/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/ El amor es poner tu felicidad en la felicidad de otro - Leibniz -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQCVAwUBSdDxSplgi5GaxT1NAQLacgP9GdVfg1LWpy4UakHrGC1MFMRV3PCZ9HuL B63k368rX/QOzYc67Y6smzTzKJUFsGCGCUsg70NTIxNwGLJIspBjQ46xKrcNRHYS nXvzT/WKRz5HgEMEHwDLXMFdsXWBsVAT5ZkiXZeGIa1WnPvWxmhqwJPd105JusqE BRH5dhg8MbU= =dnwD -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] And the winner is...
We're switching to Mercurial (Hg). And two hours later, GNOME announces their migration to git is underway. I'd suspect a series of April Fools jokes, if it weren't two days early. :) -- Michael Urman ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] And the winner is...
Just for curiosity's sake, could someone outline the five (or so) most significant pluses of hg relative to git? (My personal feeling is that any of the three is a huge improvement over subversion. I think git probably should have been written in Python with some stuff in C where necessary, and (perhaps) the hg guy really is right when he claims that Linus should have skipped git and used hg from the start. That notwithstanding, though, it kind of looks like git has won the mindshare war at this point, and I think the best hg can hope for from this point forward is a sort of *BSD to git's Linux. I do hope that it lives on, shutouts being fascist, etc. Aside: I once worked with the guy maintaining git, and he might have the greatest sum of talent plus humility of any programmer I ever met.) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] And the winner is...
On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 7:59 PM, Mike Coleman tutu...@gmail.com wrote: Just for curiosity's sake, could someone outline the five (or so) most significant pluses of hg relative to git? (My personal feeling is that any of the three is a huge improvement over subversion. I think git probably should have been written in Python with some stuff in C where necessary, and (perhaps) the hg guy really is right when he claims that Linus should have skipped git and used hg from the start. That notwithstanding, though, it kind of looks like git has won the mindshare war at this point, and I think the best hg can hope for from this point forward is a sort of *BSD to git's Linux. I do hope that it lives on, shutouts being fascist, etc. Yeah, I also think I'll just stop developing Python now and suggest that you all switch to Java, which has clearly won the mindshare war for languages. :-) Aside: I once worked with the guy maintaining git, and he might have the greatest sum of talent plus humility of any programmer I ever met.) But is his humility enough to cancel out Linus's attitude? -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] And the winner is...
Guido van Rossum wrote: On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 7:59 PM, Mike Coleman tutu...@gmail.com wrote: Just for curiosity's sake, could someone outline the five (or so) most significant pluses of hg relative to git? (My personal feeling is that any of the three is a huge improvement over subversion. I think git probably should have been written in Python with some stuff in C where necessary, and (perhaps) the hg guy really is right when he claims that Linus should have skipped git and used hg from the start. That notwithstanding, though, it kind of looks like git has won the mindshare war at this point, and I think the best hg can hope for from this point forward is a sort of *BSD to git's Linux. I do hope that it lives on, shutouts being fascist, etc. Yeah, I also think I'll just stop developing Python now and suggest that you all switch to Java, which has clearly won the mindshare war for languages. :-) Aside: I once worked with the guy maintaining git, and he might have the greatest sum of talent plus humility of any programmer I ever met.) But is his humility enough to cancel out Linus's attitude? All the humility in the world pales besides Linus's attitude. But that's probably just because we are all fools. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/ Want to know? Come to PyCon - soon! http://us.pycon.org/ ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] And the winner is...
Mike Coleman writes: Just for curiosity's sake, could someone outline the five (or so) most significant pluses of hg relative to git? I think really it comes down to Guido's intuition. However, without attempting to channel Guido, as the git proponent in the PEP I'd like to go on record as saying that I'm quite satisfied with the outcome. The main thing is that git strongly encourages direct manipulation of the commit DAG, in the way that Lisp encourages direct manipulation of lists (even more so than Python does!) This opens the door to dramatic changes in the public workflow over time, viz. movement toward a Linux-kernel-like workflow. But the BDFL is not Linus, and Python is not the Linux kernel. My feeling (as the git proponent in the PEP who was surprised about the pushback I felt) is that some Python developers are visceral conservatives about workflow. Even cracking that door is unnerving. And most would rather avoid changes in the *community* workflow, despite eagerly looking forward to the changes in *personal* workflow that any of the distributed VCSes will enable. My feeling is that in that context, it's not a matter of which is best. They're all good. But from the point of view of maintaining the good points of the current workflow, while enabling experiment and improvement by individual developers, I think Mercurial is most conservative alternative of the three. I also just wrote a long post about the comparison of bzr to hg responding to a comment on baz...@canonical.com. I won't recap it here but it might be of interest. I think git probably should have been written in Python with some stuff in C where necessary, It wouldn't be that hard to do a rewrite in Python, but the git programmers are mostly kernel people. They write in C and shell. No big deal -- except to Pythonistas.wink and (perhaps) the hg guy really is right when he claims that Linus should have skipped git and used hg from the start. Unlikely. As Terry says, people have different preferences for tools. The important one here is whether you see history as immutable fact and direct manipulations of the commit DAG as falsification, or not. People who lean toward the DAG as *recording* history will prefer Mercurial or Bazaar. People who tend to see the DAG as a tool for *presenting* changes will prefer git. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
