Re: [Python-Dev] Issues not responded to.
On Sun, 02 Aug 2015 21:47:23 +0530, Rustom Mody wrote:
> [Yeah I am a lurker on the mentors list but I dont see much *technical*
> discussion happening there]
Yes, it's a mentoring list for how to contribute, not for technical
issues, though we happily get in to technical issues when they arise.
> We could actually submit patches.
> Just that the priorities of the 3 parties -- teachers, students, devs --
> is clearly different:
> - Teachers need to give/create a good learning experience
> - Students need to shine, do well, excel...("show off" is not an
> inaccurate description)
> - Devs need the language to progress and bugs to be fixed
>
> Though these priorities are different I believe a symbiosis is possible.
> In particular, at least some of the -- for a dev -- 'ugly-bugs' could be a
> challenge in an academic context.
The issues that haven't been responded to are *an* issue, but not in
fact our most pressing one. The bigger problem, that a Fellow would
solve, is not fixing bugs at all (although in Django's case apparently
the Fellow does handle security issues...we have an active group of
committers who address those, so I don't think a Python Fellow would
need to write patches for those, just possibly shepherd them through).
The need is to do the "ugly" *job* of making sure that issues that have
patches get reviewed, the patches improved, and *get applied*, and, yes,
that all issues get a reply. (This is actually a job I enjoy doing, but
all I've been managing in my unpaid time lately is trying to keep up
with tracker triage and making technical/procedural comments on some
issues.)
If we had the kind of support a Fellow would provide then your students
could actually get valuable feedback by submitting patches (as long as
they were willing to take patch criticism!). I'm not *sure* that would
be a good thing, as it would increase the review load of patches from
less experienced developers, but personally I'd encourage it anyway to
help kids (and other less experienced developers) *become* good
developers. Python has always had an educational mission, after all :)
Rob's suggestion of core devs trying to review one 'commit review' patch
a day (or whatever rhythm works for them) could move us toward this goal
without a Fellow. I'm going to try to get back to doing that. But
realistically, we can't count on busy people being able to make that
kind of time consistently available for free, or being interested on
working on parts of Python that, well, they aren't interested in.
> I will be teaching again to more advanced students this time
> If I could find a path through bugs of different challenge-levels we may
> get some bugs fixed...
Like I said, our problem isn't getting the bugs fixed, it is getting the
fixes *reviewed* and *applied*. (Yes, there are some bugs that languish
because no one is interested in doing the grunt work to fix them, but
I bet that problem would take care of itself if people were more
confident that patches would actually get applied when completed.)
Having your students *review* and improve existing patches that haven't
been moved to 'commit review' and aren't being actively worked on would
be just as useful as finding bugs without patches to work on (and easier
to do). I think it would just as valuable educationally, or perhaps
more so, because they have a starting point, learn about code quality,
and figure out how *improve* code (thus learning about better coding
practices).
Unfortunately there is no good path to finding "appropriate" bugs. My
own technique, used for the pycon sprints, is just to hit 'random issue'
and evaluate the doability (ie: it's not hung up waiting for a decision
from core) and difficulty level and putting it on a list accordingly.
That does in some cases require enough experience with the codebase to
make those judgements, but there are a lot of issues that are fairly
obvious on their face as to how difficult they are.
--David
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[Python-Dev] Issues not responded to.
On Fri, Jul 31, 2015 at 9:37 AM, Carl Meyer wrote:
>
> I'm a Django core developer. For the last half-year or so, the Django
> Software Foundation has (for the first time) paid a "Django Fellow" or
> two (currently Tim Graham) to work on core Django. For me the experience
> has been excellent.
>
> So based on my experience with the transition to having a DSF-paid
> Fellow on the Django core team, and having watched important python-dev
> work (e.g. the core workflow stuff) linger due to lack of available
> volunteer time, I'd recommend that python-dev run, not walk, to ask the
> PSF board to fund a similar position for Python core.
>
> Of course there may be differences between the culture of python-dev and
> Django core
>
>
A view from the other side.
Yeah I guess its a good idea for PSF to spend some money to clear 'ugly'
bugs.
Dunno about the proc-n-cons of this so wont get into it.
Instead I'd like to draw attention to the free side of the equation --
What would it take to have more hands with sleeves rolled up and doing
the housecleaning?
Context:
We had a bunch of college students (2nd year Engineering) doing some
projects
with us.
One was inside the CPython sources:
https://github.com/rusimody/l10Python
Their final presentation was last Thursday.
Q: Is there anything in there that can reasonably be a patch for python?
A: Please dont be embarrassing!
However as a student project it was enough for us to say: "Good work!"
Here's an REPL-session to demo:
[Note १२३४५६७८९० is devanagari equivalent of 1234567890]
--
Python 3.5.0b2 (default, Jul 30 2015, 19:32:42)
[GCC 4.9.2] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> १२
12
>>> 23 == २३
True
>>> १२ + ३४
46
>>> १२ + 34
46
>>> "12" == "१२"
False
>>> 2 ≤ 3
True
>>> 2 ≠ 3
True
>>> (λ x: x+3)(4)
7
>>> # as a result of which this doesn't work... I did say they are kids!
...
>>> δ = 3
File "", line 1
δ = 3
^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax
>>> {1,2,3} ∩ {2,3,4}
{2, 3}
>>> {1,2,3} ∪ {2,3,4}
{1, 2, 3, 4}
>>> ¬ True
False
>>> Σ([1,2,3,4])
10
>>>
--
The last is actually more an embarrassment than the δ breaking since
they’ve *changed the lexer* to read the Σ when all that was required was
Σ = sum !!
In short... Kids!
However as kids we could say they are farther to being programmers than
they were before
this -- opening something of the scale of CPython, finding one's way around
and adding/modifying
even the tiniest bit of functionality is a big growing-up step.
Brings me to the point of this mail:
Surely me+my students is not unique configuration -- there must be zillions
of such across the world.
And if inexperienced/kids like us had more help from people like the
members of
this list we would get farther and at least some subset of these may go
on to become actual devs/contributors.
So the request is that some of you give a tiny fraction of your time to
teams just mucking
around in the CPython codebase as a long term investment to producing more
devs even when it is
not directly connected to a possible contribution/patch.
[Yeah I am a lurker on the mentors list but I dont see much *technical*
discussion happening there]
We could actually submit patches.
Just that the priorities of the 3 parties -- teachers, students, devs --
is clearly different:
- Teachers need to give/create a good learning experience
- Students need to shine, do well, excel...("show off" is not an
inaccurate description)
- Devs need the language to progress and bugs to be fixed
Though these priorities are different I believe a symbiosis is possible.
In particular, at least some of the -- for a dev -- 'ugly-bugs' could be a
challenge in an academic context.
I will be teaching again to more advanced students this time
If I could find a path through bugs of different challenge-levels we may
get some bugs fixed...
Thanks
Rusi
--
http://blog.languager.org
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Re: [Python-Dev] Issues not responded to.
Xavier de Gaye writes: > > Here's a query: > > > > https://bugs.python.org/issue?@action=search&@columns=title,id,creator,activity,actor,status&@sort=activity&status=-1,1,3,4&message_count=1 > > > > This is nice, thanks. > Note that this is missing the cases where more than one message was > required, for example to send two attachments (a script as the use > case, and a patch). If this picks up more than 100 (I bet it's the kind of thing Mark used, so 400 is probably a reasonable estimate), we can clean these up and worry about the ones that fall through the cracks later. It's arbitrary but as far as I can see not unfair. Steve ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Issues not responded to.
On 7/31/2015 7:30 AM, Xavier de Gaye wrote: On 07/31/2015 06:42 AM, Zachary Ware wrote: On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 8:21 PM, Brett Cannon wrote: Best thing I can think of is to post the Roundup search you did Just put 1 in the Message count box on the standard search page. Nothing special. to find those 400 so thoseof us who can help can just start whittling them away. You could also share it with core-mentorship and explain we need help evaluating these issues with the caveat we have no idea how difficult it is to do the evaluation. Here's a query: https://bugs.python.org/issue?@action=search&@columns=title,id,creator,activity,actor,status&@sort=activity&status=-1,1,3,4&message_count=1 This is nice, thanks. Note that this is missing the cases where more than one message was required, for example to send two attachments (a script as the use case, and a patch). A second attachment by itself should not increase the message count. But people sometimes add a second message with or without an upload. Putting 1 in the Nosy count will also pick up orphans if no one else has been added as nosy. But the latter can be done by both the original poster or triagers or even automatically by the tracker itself. -- Terry Jan Reedy ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Issues not responded to.
On 07/31/2015 06:42 AM, Zachary Ware wrote: On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 8:21 PM, Brett Cannon wrote: Best thing I can think of is to post the Roundup search you did to find those 400 so thoseof us who can help can just start whittling them away. You could also share it with core-mentorship and explain we need help evaluating these issues with the caveat we have no idea how difficult it is to do the evaluation. Here's a query: https://bugs.python.org/issue?@action=search&@columns=title,id,creator,activity,actor,status&@sort=activity&status=-1,1,3,4&message_count=1 This is nice, thanks. Note that this is missing the cases where more than one message was required, for example to send two attachments (a script as the use case, and a patch). Xavier ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Issues not responded to.
Carl Meyer schrieb am 31.07.2015 um 06:07: > So based on my experience with the transition to having a DSF-paid > Fellow on the Django core team, and having watched important python-dev > work (e.g. the core workflow stuff) linger due to lack of available > volunteer time, I'd recommend that python-dev run, not walk, to ask the > PSF board to fund a similar position for Python core. Sounds good to me, too. There are already core developers and contributors being paid for their work in one way or another, either directly or by 'just' being allowed to work on CPython during some of their paid working hours. Guido's 50% are only the most prominent example. That has never been a problem. At the end of the day, everyone has to make a living somehow in order to find time at all to devote to CPython, so I don't see any room for an envy debate here. Getting a paid developer in for the background infrastructure work and the "stuff that needs to get done but wouldn't" seems like a good way to solve exactly these problems while making it more fun for the others to concentrate on what they like doing. Stefan ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Issues not responded to.
On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 8:21 PM, Brett Cannon wrote: > Best thing I can think of is to post the Roundup search you did to find > those 400 so thoseof us who can help can just start whittling them away. You > could also share it with core-mentorship and explain we need help evaluating > these issues with the caveat we have no idea how difficult it is to do the > evaluation. Here's a query: https://bugs.python.org/issue?@action=search&@columns=title,id,creator,activity,actor,status&@sort=activity&status=-1,1,3,4&message_count=1 -- Zach ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Issues not responded to.
On 07/30/2015 09:03 PM, Nikolaus Rath wrote: > Nick recently mentioned that the PSF might be able to help, but that the > initiative for that needs to come from the core developers. So why don't > you guys ask the PSF to e.g. sponsor some of the work that no one feels > motivated to do in their spare time? > > To avoid issues with some people being paid for work that others > contribute in their free time one could introduce a new keyword in the > tracker (say "ugly"). Whenever a core developer sees an issue that he[1] > thinks should be worked on, but that he really does not want to do in > his free time, he tags it with "ugly" and the issue becomes available > for PSF-sponsored work. I'm a Django core developer. For the last half-year or so, the Django Software Foundation has (for the first time) paid a "Django Fellow" or two (currently Tim Graham) to work on core Django. For me the experience has been excellent. Having a Django Fellow significantly reduces the guilt-burden of being part of the core team; it frees me to do the work that I find most interesting, without needing to worry that other necessary work won't get done. Releases are made on time, new tickets are triaged, and security issues are attended to, whether I find the time to do it myself or not, because someone is paid to ensure it happens. I've never been the person on the core team who took on the majority of that burden as a volunteer, but I _still_ (perhaps especially?) feel the guilt-burden lifted. And having that burden lifted hasn't decreased the overall amount of time I devote to Django; it's increased it significantly, because spending time on Django has become more fun. Contributing to Django is also more fun now than it used to be (for core developers and, I think, for everyone else) because Tim has been able to devote significant chunks of time to infrastructure (the CI server and the GitHub workflow, e.g. having the test suite and several other automated code quality checks run automatically on every GitHub pull request) that nobody ever found time to do as a volunteer. So based on my experience with the transition to having a DSF-paid Fellow on the Django core team, and having watched important python-dev work (e.g. the core workflow stuff) linger due to lack of available volunteer time, I'd recommend that python-dev run, not walk, to ask the PSF board to fund a similar position for Python core. Of course there may be differences between the culture of python-dev and Django core that I'm not fully aware of that may make a difference in how things work out. And finding the right person for the job is critical, of course. I think the Django experience suggests that an existing long-time contributor who is already known and trusted by the core team is a good bet. Also that the Fellow needs to already have, or quickly gain, commit privileges themselves. For whatever it's worth, Carl signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Issues not responded to.
On Jul 31 2015, Mark Lawrence wrote: > There are over 400 issues on the bug tracker that have not had a > response to the initial message, roughly half of these within the last > eight months alone. Is there a (relatively) simple way that we can > share these out between us to sort those that are likely to need > dealing with in the medium to longer term, from the simple short term > ones, e.g very easy typo fixes? Nick recently mentioned that the PSF might be able to help, but that the initiative for that needs to come from the core developers. So why don't you guys ask the PSF to e.g. sponsor some of the work that no one feels motivated to do in their spare time? To avoid issues with some people being paid for work that others contribute in their free time one could introduce a new keyword in the tracker (say "ugly"). Whenever a core developer sees an issue that he[1] thinks should be worked on, but that he really does not want to do in his free time, he tags it with "ugly" and the issue becomes available for PSF-sponsored work. Best, -Nikolaus [1] I first wanted to write he/she - but are there actually any female core contributors? -- GPG encrypted emails preferred. Key id: 0xD113FCAC3C4E599F Fingerprint: ED31 791B 2C5C 1613 AF38 8B8A D113 FCAC 3C4E 599F »Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a Banana.« ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Issues not responded to.
On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 6:02 PM Mark Lawrence wrote: > There are over 400 issues on the bug tracker that have not had a > response to the initial message, roughly half of these within the last > eight months alone. Is there a (relatively) simple way that we can > share these out between us to sort those that are likely to need dealing > with in the medium to longer term, from the simple short term ones, e.g > very easy typo fixes? > Best thing I can think of is to post the Roundup search you did to find those 400 so thoseof us who can help can just start whittling them away. You could also share it with core-mentorship and explain we need help evaluating these issues with the caveat we have no idea how difficult it is to do the evaluation. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Python-Dev] Issues not responded to.
There are over 400 issues on the bug tracker that have not had a response to the initial message, roughly half of these within the last eight months alone. Is there a (relatively) simple way that we can share these out between us to sort those that are likely to need dealing with in the medium to longer term, from the simple short term ones, e.g very easy typo fixes? -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
