[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-11-07 Thread Garrett D'Amore via Python-Dev 
Just one note.  Please don’t confuse illumos and the illumos community with 
Oracle or Solaris.  While the illumos code base owes its origins to Solaris, 
that was due to the acts of Sun and not Oracle and today Oracle refuses to even 
acknowledge the existence of illumos.  illumos is fully open source. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 30, 2020, at 4:59 PM, Gregory P. Smith  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 2:30 PM Garrett D'Amore via Python-Dev 
>>  wrote:
>> I’m not on this list.  But I have offered to help - if there are tasks that 
>> need to be done to help this I can help put the weight of a commercial 
>> entity behind it whether that involves assigning our developers to work on 
>> this, helping pay for external developers to do so, or assisting with access 
>> to machine resources. 
>> 
>> For the record there are multiple  illumos distributions and most are both 
>> free and run reasonably well in virtual machines. Claiming that developers 
>> don’t have access as a reason to discontinue the port is a bit disingenuous. 
>> Anyone can get access if they want and if they can figure out how to login 
>> and use Linux then this should be pretty close to trivial for them. 
> 
> Thanks!  It usually isn't just about access.  This email thread and related 
> tweets appear to have served their purpose: To drum up volunteers+resources 
> from the otherwise potentially impacted communities.  The valuable thing is 
> developer time.
> 
> Access: I took it upon myself to spin up some Solaris-derivative VMs for 
> Python dev things in the (now distant) past.  It wasn't a positive 
> experience, I won't do it again.  Bonus on top of that: Oracle, the owner of 
> Solaris, is still actively attempting to destroy the entire software 
> industry.  Working on anything attempting to directly benefit them is a major 
> ethical violation for me.  Others make their own choices.
> 
> I won't even spin up major BSD VMs anymore for a similar reason.  It isn't a 
> good positive use of my time, even despite having an enjoyable past with 
> those OSes and knowing several past and present Free/Net/OpenBSD core devs.
> 
> I look forward to new *Solaris buildbot(s) joining the fleet,
> -gps
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[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-11-06 Thread Victor Stinner 
Le jeu. 29 oct. 2020 à 22:43, Victor Stinner  a écrit :
> I propose to drop the Solaris support in Python to reduce the Python
> maintenance burden:
>
>https://bugs.python.org/issue42173
> (...)

Since I created the issue and the PR, and sent this email to
python-dev (one week ago), many Solaris and Solaris-like (ex: Illumos)
users replied that the operating system is definitively alive. I
didn't know that Oracle still ships new Solaris updates every month:
that's a good thing!

But this is not enough to support a platform. We would need proactive
contributors to fix known Solaris issues, but also fix new Solaris
issues (either regressions, or bugs newly discovered). We would also
need a buildbot to run the Python test suite on Solaris (or again, a
Solaris-like OS).

The good news is that Jakub Kulik started to fix some Solaris issues.
I understood that Solaris and Solaris-like operating systems do have
downstream patches on Python to fix a bunch of bugs. It seems like
some people want to push these fixes to Python upstream which is also
a good sign.

The other problem that I wanted to discuss is that fixing Solaris
issues require core devs (who merge PRs) accessing Solaris. If
contributors send patches and some core devs are fine with merging
fixes without being able to test them manually, I'm also fine with
that.

My first intent was to remove support for a definitely dead operating
system, but it seems like I was completely wrong (it's alive!). Thanks
to people starting to fix Solaris issues, I close my PR and I no
longer plan to drop Solaris support. I prefer to leave bpo-42173 open
for now, since people decide to use it as a place to collaborate on
fixing Solaris issues.

Once most tests will pass on the master branch, I also hope that
someone will set up a buildbot *and* fix issues discovered by this
buildbot. Sorry but just setting up a buildbot doesn't solve any
problem, it only increases the maintenance burden for people who
maintain the buildbot fleet. For example, we have two AIX buildbots, I
report bugs on bugs.python.org, but it seems like nobody is available
to fix them...

Overall, I'm quite happy with what is happening with Solaris! More
collaboration, issues being fixed in Python upstream. I just hope that
this work will continue next months. ;-)

Victor
-- 
Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
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[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-11-02 Thread Jakub Kulík 
Hi, that was me fixing Oracle Solaris related issues.

To be completely honest, I wasn't sure if you would be interested in some
of our patches, because I thought that Python works without issues on
Illumos based systems and our patches might be very Oracle Solaris
specific. It seems that I was wrong (especially if I am the only one making
more Solaris fixes) - and looking at the OpenIndiana repo confirms that
suspicion because their Python 3.7 is almost exact copy of our repo with
the same patches fixing the same issues.

I am more than happy to help with Solaris related Python development. It
seems like Illumos is still pretty similar, hitting the same issues, so we
don't have to be afraid that fixes for one will break the other (especially
once/if Illumos build bot will be available). I will do more of those first
three points you mentioned and also upstream more of our patches, of which
we have several (
https://github.com/oracle/solaris-userland/tree/master/components/python/python39/
).

Also, as mentioned in the bug tracker, we are looking at how to provide
build bots running on Oracle Solaris.

Jakub

pá 30. 10. 2020 v 13:54 odesílatel Victor Stinner 
napsal:

> Hi Ronald,
>
> Le ven. 30 oct. 2020 à 12:59, Ronald Oussoren  a
> écrit :
> > I agree. That’s what I tried to write, its not just providing a buildbot
> but also making sure that it keeps working and stays green.
>
> This is really great!
>
> Jesús Cea Avión is also a volunteer to maintain the Solaris (see the bpo).
>
> Moreover, it seems like some people would like to provide servers to
> run a Solaris buildbot. Example:
> https://bugs.python.org/issue42173#msg379895
>
> Two volunteer core developers and at least one buildbot would help a
> lot to ensure that Python is working on Solaris for real, and reduce
> the number of open Solaris issues. If it happens, I'm perfectly fine
> with keeping Solaris support.
>
> I also hope that more people will contribute to maintain the code, not
> only Ronald and Jesús. Many people wrote to me that Python is a key
> component of Illumos (the package manager is written in Python). So
> maybe Python on Illumos deserves some love?
>
> There are many ways to contribute to the Solaris support of Python:
>
> * Comment Solaris issues (bugs.python.org, search for "Solaris" in the
> title)
> * Propose PRs to fix issues or implement Solaris specific features
> * Review Solaris PRs
> * Provide Solaris servers accessible to Python core developers (SSH access)
> * Donate to the CPython project:
>
>   * https://www.python.org/psf/donations/python-dev/
>   * https://github.com/sponsors/python
>
> * etc.
>
> See also the https://devguide.python.org/ if you would like to
> contribute to Python.
>
> By the way, thanks Jakub Kulík (CC-ed to this email) who fixed
> multiple Solaris issues in the last 2 years ;-)
>
> Victor
> --
> Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
>
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[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-10-31 Thread Terry Reedy 

On 10/30/2020 5:08 PM, Garrett D'Amore via Python-Dev wrote:

I’m not on this list.  But I have offered to help - if there are tasks that 
need to be done to help this I can help put the weight of a commercial entity 
behind it whether that involves assigning our developers to work on this, 
helping pay for external developers to do so, or assisting with access to 
machine resources.



What’s more likely is that some group of developers aren’t interested in 
supporting stuff they don’t actively use.

[snip]
I think it is more of a matter of pride in putting out a quality product 
and not making claims that might be false. Anyway, here is what I posted 
on the issue.

https://bugs.python.org/issue42173
"""
Dear Solaris Python fans (about 20 so far here): Here is the situation. 
There are 1000s of open issues on this tracker and at least 100s of open 
cpython PRs, and only 20-30 core developers, mostly volunteers, actively 
(depending on definition) merging PRs and maybe another 10 triagers 
helping to manage issues.


You all can help on issues by checking whether reported bugs still exist 
with current Python (3.8+) on current 'Solaris' (which includes what?). 
Searching open issues for 'Solaris' in 'All text' just returned 114 
hits.  About half were last touched over two years ago, and sometimes 
the last touch was inconsequential (a version or nosy change).  I 
suspect many of the 114 are obsolete.  For example, the last comment, 
five years ago, on #1471934, says the problem was fixed in Solaris 11.2. 
 Does this mean the issue should be closed?


The bottleneck for merging PRs is reviewing PRs.  We coredevs cannot do 
enough reviews ourselves.  But any competent user can  help.  Reviewing 
has two components.  First, does the patch fix the problem?  Testing 
this requires a Github account and a local clone and ability to build a 
test binary.  See devguide.python.org for more.  Second, does the patch 
meet our standards of code quality.  Solaris-specific patches likely 
change the C part of cpython, so C competence and understanding of PEP 7 
is needed here.

"""

Of the 114 issues mentioned above, not all are Solaris specific, and at 
least one says not a problem on Solaris.  Any at least some are 
obsolete.  Anyway, 67 are marked as having a patch.  Of those, about 25 
have a github PR, the others should have an uploaded .patch or .diff 
that could be made into a PR.


Slicing another way, 20 and 15 are marked as type 'behavior' and 
'compile error'.  A few errors are possible.  Another 11 have no type 
selected.  So I guess there might be say 30 bug issues that affect 
Solaris and that have a patch to review and improve.


So one or more of your people could select issues of interest and help 
get a patch to where they think is it ready to merge.  Then ask if some 
coredev that can do so will do a final review and possible merge.


In message msg380008 yesterday, Victor listed steps toward a buildbot, 
starting with a census of failing tests to discover the current state of 
CPython 3.10 on Solaris.


--
Terry Jan Reedy

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[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-10-30 Thread Raymond Hettinger 

> On Oct 30, 2020, at 4:51 PM, Gregory P. Smith  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 1:14 PM Raymond Hettinger 
>  wrote:
> FWIW, when the tracker issue landed with a PR, I became concerned that it 
> would be applied without further discussion and without consulting users.
> 
> An issue and a PR doesn't simply mean "it is happening".

There have been a number of issues/pr pairs this year that have followed 
exactly that path.  

While we'll never know for sure, it is my belief that this would have been 
applied had I not drawn attention to it.  Very few people follow the bug 
tracker everyday — the sparse Solaris community almost certainly would not have 
been aware of the tracker entry.   Likewise, I don't think there would have 
been a python-dev thread; otherwise, it would have happened *prior* to the PR, 
the tracker issue, and all of the comments from the people affected.  The call 
for helpers was made only *after* the user pleas not to pull the trigger.  

It's all fine now.  The decision is being broadly discussed.  That is what is 
important.


Raymond  

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[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-10-30 Thread Gregory P. Smith 
On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 2:30 PM Garrett D'Amore via Python-Dev <
python-dev@python.org> wrote:

> I’m not on this list.  But I have offered to help - if there are tasks
> that need to be done to help this I can help put the weight of a commercial
> entity behind it whether that involves assigning our developers to work on
> this, helping pay for external developers to do so, or assisting with
> access to machine resources.
>
> For the record there are multiple  illumos distributions and most are both
> free and run reasonably well in virtual machines. Claiming that developers
> don’t have access as a reason to discontinue the port is a bit
> disingenuous. Anyone can get access if they want and if they can figure out
> how to login and use Linux then this should be pretty close to trivial for
> them.
>

Thanks!  It usually isn't just about access.  This email thread and related
tweets appear to have served their purpose: To drum up volunteers+resources
from the otherwise potentially impacted communities.  The valuable thing is
developer time.

Access: I took it upon myself to spin up some Solaris-derivative VMs for
Python dev things in the (now distant) past.  It wasn't a positive
experience, I won't do it again.  Bonus on top of that: Oracle, the owner
of Solaris, is *still* actively attempting to destroy the entire software
industry .
Working on anything attempting to directly benefit them is a major ethical
violation for me.  Others make their own choices.

I won't even spin up major BSD VMs anymore for a similar reason.  It isn't
a good positive use of my time, even despite having an enjoyable past with
those OSes and knowing several past and present Free/Net/OpenBSD core devs.

I look forward to new *Solaris buildbot(s) joining the fleet,
-gps
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[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-10-30 Thread Gregory P. Smith 
On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 1:14 PM Raymond Hettinger <
raymond.hettin...@gmail.com> wrote:

> FWIW, when the tracker issue landed with a PR, I became concerned that it
> would be applied without further discussion and without consulting users.


An issue and a PR doesn't simply mean "it is happening".  It is an
effective way to communicate and demonstrate a possible change.  It appears
to have served its purpose.
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[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-10-30 Thread Skip Montanaro 
On Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 6:32 PM Gregory P. Smith  wrote:

> I agree, remove Solaris support. Nobody willing to contribute seems
> interested.
>

*sniff* I spent a lot of professional time in front of SunOS and Solaris
screens. But yes, I agree. It seems time to give Solaris the boot.

Skip
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[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-10-30 Thread Garrett D'Amore via Python-Dev 
I’m not on this list.  But I have offered to help - if there are tasks that 
need to be done to help this I can help put the weight of a commercial entity 
behind it whether that involves assigning our developers to work on this, 
helping pay for external developers to do so, or assisting with access to 
machine resources. 

For the record there are multiple  illumos distributions and most are both free 
and run reasonably well in virtual machines. Claiming that developers don’t 
have access as a reason to discontinue the port is a bit disingenuous. Anyone 
can get access if they want and if they can figure out how to login and use 
Linux then this should be pretty close to trivial for them. 

What’s more likely is that some group of developers aren’t interested in 
supporting stuff they don’t actively use.  I get it.  It’s easier to work in a 
monoculture. But in this case there are many many more users of this that would 
be impacted than a naive examination of downloads will show.

Of course this all presumes that the core Python team still places value on 
being a cross platform portable tool. I can help solve most of the other 
concerns - except for this one. 

 - Garrett
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[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-10-30 Thread Paul Moore 
On Fri, 30 Oct 2020 at 20:13, Raymond Hettinger
 wrote:
>
> I vote against removal.
>
> We have no compelling need to disrupt an entire community and ecosystem even 
> though it it is small.
[...]
> Given this kind of user response, I think it would irresponsible to drop 
> support.

I vote for leaving things as they are. There are clearly users who
value the current level of support. No core developer *has* to fix
Solaris issues if they feel their time is better spent elsewhere, so I
don't see the point of spending effort ripping out code that (some)
people find useful. And in Raymond's follow up he mentions someone
who's offering resources to help. Let's take them up on that.

Paul
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[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-10-30 Thread Raymond Hettinger 
Here are a couple comments on the Twitter thread that warrant your attention.

Apparently, this is being used by the European Space Agency on their space 
craft.
-- https://twitter.com/nikolaivk/status/1322094167980466178

"To be clear I will put some money where my mouth is.  If we need to invest 
resources either in the form of developers or dollars to keep the port alive we 
will. By we I mean RackTop and/or Staysail Systems." -- 
https://twitter.com/gedamore/status/1321959956199866369


Raymond
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[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-10-30 Thread Raymond Hettinger 
I vote against removal.

We have no compelling need to disrupt an entire community and ecosystem even 
though it it is small.  

To anyone chiming in to say, yes drop the support, ask whether you've consulted 
any of the users — they should have a say in the matter. It is better for them 
to be a bit neglected than to be cut it off entirely.

FWIW, when the tracker issue landed with a PR, I became concerned that it would 
be applied without further discussion and without consulting users.  So I asked 
on Twitter whether Solaris was being used.  If you're interested in the 
responses, see the thread at: https://twitter.com/i/status/1321917936668340227 
(Victor can't see it because he blocked my account a long time ago).  Also take 
a look at the user comments on the tracker: https://bugs.python.org/issue42173 
.  For those who don't follow links, here's a sample:

* "Platform genocide is both unnecessary and unwarranted." -- brett3
* "Please do not drop support." -- jm650
* "I just want to lend my voice in favor of maintaining "Solarish" support as 
well, and offer what help I may for resolving issues."-- robertfrench
* "No no no, please don't." -- tbalbers
* "Please do not drop support for SunOS." -- mariuspana
* "Please continue support for Solaris/IllumOS! This is very important for us." 
-- marcheschi
* "Please don't drop Solaris support, we still use it to this day." -- abarbu
* ... and many more will the same flavor

Given this kind of user response, I think it would irresponsible to drop 
support.


Raymond
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[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-10-30 Thread Gregory P. Smith 
On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:03 AM Brett Cannon  wrote:

>
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 6:37 AM Pablo Galindo Salgado 
> wrote:
>
>> >Two volunteer core developers and at least one buildbot would help a
>> > lot to ensure that Python is working on Solaris for real, and reduce
>> > the number of open Solaris issues. If it happens, I'm perfectly fine
>> > with keeping Solaris support.
>> > I also hope that more people will contribute to maintain the code, not
>> > only Ronald and Jesús. Many people wrote to me that Python is a key
>> > component of Illumos (the package manager is written in Python). So
>> > maybe Python on Illumos deserves some love?
>>
>> If we decide to take the proposal seriously, I think it may be beneficial
>> to establish a deadline for having the buildbot green and the issues
>> fixed,
>> so the promise of having "real" support at some point in the future does
>> actually manifest itself or it does not block following Victor's proposal
>> if it
>> actually does not happen.
>>
>
> I agree, and so maybe it's time to more formally establish what platforms
> we do support, such that any platform not listed is not considered
> supported. We could reorient PEP 11 towards that and for each platform we
> list:
>
> 1. Which buildbot must be green for that platform to be considered
> supported
> 2. Who is in charge of submitting patches to keep that buildbot green (and
> what that minimum number of people is)
> 3. We have an agreed upon timeline that if a buildbot stays red for longer
> than the specified time then the platform is considered abandoned
> 4. We all agree to prioritize patches from the people listed for a
> platform to fix their buildbots if they are not core devs
> 5. We have a clear definition of "platform" (e.g. is "Linux" a platform,
> or does it break down to individual distros?)
>
> Would there be anything else we would want for a platform for us to be
> willing to consider it supported?
>

If we're going to explicitly list Platforms, that gets messy to maintain.
It becomes important to draw a distinction between types of support.
Support is not a boolean.  We're autoconf based on the posix side (like it
or not) which leads to a lot of things that for the most part just mostly
work, regardless of support.  That is working as intended.

Generally, recent enough of each of: Linux distros (all architectures),
macOS, Windows, and AIX.  But that alone does not constitute a platform.

But to define things explicitly you need a definition of what a Platform is:

is it an OS kernel? what version(s)? compiler toolchain? what versions? Is
it also the C library? what version(s) of which libc variants (linux has at
least three)? other system libraries? what versions? specific CPU
architectures? what versions.  The matrix gets huge.

It can be defined.

But then you need to clarify the different levels of not being in that
matrix. "on the list, all clear" vs "likely works, no guarantees" vs
"expect lots of test failures" vs "expect extension module build failures"
vs "expect the core interpreter build to fail".

We've not done this in the past.  Would it even add value?

It is much easier to look at the list of buildbots tagged "stable".  and
consider that "on the list, all clear" and everything else is in an
unspecified one of the other four+ categories without arguments over which
sub-support list any given thing is in.

-gps


> -Brett
>
>
>>
>> On Fri, 30 Oct 2020 at 12:54, Victor Stinner  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Ronald,
>>>
>>> Le ven. 30 oct. 2020 à 12:59, Ronald Oussoren 
>>> a écrit :
>>> > I agree. That’s what I tried to write, its not just providing a
>>> buildbot but also making sure that it keeps working and stays green.
>>>
>>> This is really great!
>>>
>>> Jesús Cea Avión is also a volunteer to maintain the Solaris (see the
>>> bpo).
>>>
>>> Moreover, it seems like some people would like to provide servers to
>>> run a Solaris buildbot. Example:
>>> https://bugs.python.org/issue42173#msg379895
>>>
>>> Two volunteer core developers and at least one buildbot would help a
>>> lot to ensure that Python is working on Solaris for real, and reduce
>>> the number of open Solaris issues. If it happens, I'm perfectly fine
>>> with keeping Solaris support.
>>>
>>> I also hope that more people will contribute to maintain the code, not
>>> only Ronald and Jesús. Many people wrote to me that Python is a key
>>> component of Illumos (the package manager is written in Python). So
>>> maybe Python on Illumos deserves some love?
>>>
>>> There are many ways to contribute to the Solaris support of Python:
>>>
>>> * Comment Solaris issues (bugs.python.org, search for "Solaris" in the
>>> title)
>>> * Propose PRs to fix issues or implement Solaris specific features
>>> * Review Solaris PRs
>>> * Provide Solaris servers accessible to Python core developers (SSH
>>> access)
>>> * Donate to the CPython project:
>>>
>>>   * https://www.python.org/psf/donations/python-dev/
>>>   *

[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-10-30 Thread Sebastian Wiedenroth 



> Am 30.10.2020 um 19:13 schrieb Gregory P. Smith :
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW making a PR that adds platform specific test skips or expected failure 
> decorators is a good way to start bringing up new buildbots.  It serves as 
> effective documentation of what does and doesn't work that lives directly in 
> the codebase, in a way that can be evolved over time as more is made to work.


Ok great, thanks for the guidance.
I'll see what needs to be done for this.

Best,
Sebastian
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[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-10-30 Thread Gregory P. Smith 
On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 8:26 AM Sebastian Wiedenroth 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I've already commented on the issue, but want to make a few more points
> here as well.
>
> Removing Solaris support would not only impact Oracle Solaris but the open
> source illumos community as well.
> Both systems share the "SunOS" uname for historical reasons. Removing
> support would be a disaster for us.
>
> We are a small community compared to Linux, but there are illumos
> distributions (OpenIndiana, OmniOS, SmartOS, Tribblix, ...) that have many
> python users.
> It's also an essential part of our tooling and package management.
>
> I've offered to host an illumos buildbot before but it was not accepted
> because not all tests passed at that time.
> There is active work going on to get this debugged and fixed.
> If it is acceptable to skip some tests we can have the buildbot online
> tomorrow.
>

FWIW making a PR that adds platform specific test skips or expected failure
decorators is a good way to start bringing up new buildbots.  It serves as
effective documentation of what does and doesn't work that lives directly
in the codebase, in a way that can be evolved over time as more is made to
work.

-gps

On the ticket many users and developers have offered to step up, myself
> included.
> In our IRC channel we also had some discussions yesterday and we're hoping
> to bring more patches upstream soon.
>
> If there is interest in ssh access to illumos systems that is also
> something I can offer.
>
> Please let us know if there is more we need to do to keep python on
> illumos supported.
>
> Best regards,
> Sebastian
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[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-10-30 Thread Brett Cannon 
On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 6:37 AM Pablo Galindo Salgado 
wrote:

> >Two volunteer core developers and at least one buildbot would help a
> > lot to ensure that Python is working on Solaris for real, and reduce
> > the number of open Solaris issues. If it happens, I'm perfectly fine
> > with keeping Solaris support.
> > I also hope that more people will contribute to maintain the code, not
> > only Ronald and Jesús. Many people wrote to me that Python is a key
> > component of Illumos (the package manager is written in Python). So
> > maybe Python on Illumos deserves some love?
>
> If we decide to take the proposal seriously, I think it may be beneficial
> to establish a deadline for having the buildbot green and the issues fixed,
> so the promise of having "real" support at some point in the future does
> actually manifest itself or it does not block following Victor's proposal
> if it
> actually does not happen.
>

I agree, and so maybe it's time to more formally establish what platforms
we do support, such that any platform not listed is not considered
supported. We could reorient PEP 11 towards that and for each platform we
list:

1. Which buildbot must be green for that platform to be considered supported
2. Who is in charge of submitting patches to keep that buildbot green (and
what that minimum number of people is)
3. We have an agreed upon timeline that if a buildbot stays red for longer
than the specified time then the platform is considered abandoned
4. We all agree to prioritize patches from the people listed for a platform
to fix their buildbots if they are not core devs
5. We have a clear definition of "platform" (e.g. is "Linux" a platform, or
does it break down to individual distros?)

Would there be anything else we would want for a platform for us to be
willing to consider it supported?

-Brett


>
> On Fri, 30 Oct 2020 at 12:54, Victor Stinner  wrote:
>
>> Hi Ronald,
>>
>> Le ven. 30 oct. 2020 à 12:59, Ronald Oussoren  a
>> écrit :
>> > I agree. That’s what I tried to write, its not just providing a
>> buildbot but also making sure that it keeps working and stays green.
>>
>> This is really great!
>>
>> Jesús Cea Avión is also a volunteer to maintain the Solaris (see the bpo).
>>
>> Moreover, it seems like some people would like to provide servers to
>> run a Solaris buildbot. Example:
>> https://bugs.python.org/issue42173#msg379895
>>
>> Two volunteer core developers and at least one buildbot would help a
>> lot to ensure that Python is working on Solaris for real, and reduce
>> the number of open Solaris issues. If it happens, I'm perfectly fine
>> with keeping Solaris support.
>>
>> I also hope that more people will contribute to maintain the code, not
>> only Ronald and Jesús. Many people wrote to me that Python is a key
>> component of Illumos (the package manager is written in Python). So
>> maybe Python on Illumos deserves some love?
>>
>> There are many ways to contribute to the Solaris support of Python:
>>
>> * Comment Solaris issues (bugs.python.org, search for "Solaris" in the
>> title)
>> * Propose PRs to fix issues or implement Solaris specific features
>> * Review Solaris PRs
>> * Provide Solaris servers accessible to Python core developers (SSH
>> access)
>> * Donate to the CPython project:
>>
>>   * https://www.python.org/psf/donations/python-dev/
>>   * https://github.com/sponsors/python
>>
>> * etc.
>>
>> See also the https://devguide.python.org/ if you would like to
>> contribute to Python.
>>
>> By the way, thanks Jakub Kulík (CC-ed to this email) who fixed
>> multiple Solaris issues in the last 2 years ;-)
>>
>> Victor
>> --
>> Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
>>
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[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-10-30 Thread Sebastian Wiedenroth 
Hi,

I've already commented on the issue, but want to make a few more points here as 
well.

Removing Solaris support would not only impact Oracle Solaris but the open 
source illumos community as well.
Both systems share the "SunOS" uname for historical reasons. Removing support 
would be a disaster for us.

We are a small community compared to Linux, but there are illumos distributions 
(OpenIndiana, OmniOS, SmartOS, Tribblix, ...) that have many python users.
It's also an essential part of our tooling and package management.

I've offered to host an illumos buildbot before but it was not accepted because 
not all tests passed at that time.
There is active work going on to get this debugged and fixed.
If it is acceptable to skip some tests we can have the buildbot online tomorrow.

On the ticket many users and developers have offered to step up, myself 
included.
In our IRC channel we also had some discussions yesterday and we're hoping to 
bring more patches upstream soon.

If there is interest in ssh access to illumos systems that is also something I 
can offer.

Please let us know if there is more we need to do to keep python on illumos 
supported.

Best regards,
Sebastian
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[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-10-30 Thread Victor Stinner 
Le ven. 30 oct. 2020 à 14:28, Ronald Oussoren  a écrit :
> Whoa, not so fast. I’m not volunteering work on Solaris support ;-).

Oh sorry, I misunderstood your message :-(


> That said, I’m willing to review Solaris PRs (time permitting) but cannot 
> test if changes actually work.

"Cannot test" is the kind of problem that I'm trying to point to. I
don't see how Python core developers can consider maintaining a
platform if they don't have access to it.


> P.S. Another platform to consider dropping is IRIX, I noticed in your PR that 
> there’s still some support for that platform in the code base and according 
> to wikipedia IRIX has been out of development for over 14 years 
> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRIX).

IRIX support has been dropped in Python 2.3 (in 2003). I removed more
references to IRIX yesterday ;-)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/5776663675b48f011d428a5874cc3c79d1deb59e

Victor
-- 
Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
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[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-10-30 Thread Pablo Galindo Salgado 
>Two volunteer core developers and at least one buildbot would help a
> lot to ensure that Python is working on Solaris for real, and reduce
> the number of open Solaris issues. If it happens, I'm perfectly fine
> with keeping Solaris support.
> I also hope that more people will contribute to maintain the code, not
> only Ronald and Jesús. Many people wrote to me that Python is a key
> component of Illumos (the package manager is written in Python). So
> maybe Python on Illumos deserves some love?

If we decide to take the proposal seriously, I think it may be beneficial
to establish a deadline for having the buildbot green and the issues fixed,
so the promise of having "real" support at some point in the future does
actually manifest itself or it does not block following Victor's proposal
if it
actually does not happen.


On Fri, 30 Oct 2020 at 12:54, Victor Stinner  wrote:

> Hi Ronald,
>
> Le ven. 30 oct. 2020 à 12:59, Ronald Oussoren  a
> écrit :
> > I agree. That’s what I tried to write, its not just providing a buildbot
> but also making sure that it keeps working and stays green.
>
> This is really great!
>
> Jesús Cea Avión is also a volunteer to maintain the Solaris (see the bpo).
>
> Moreover, it seems like some people would like to provide servers to
> run a Solaris buildbot. Example:
> https://bugs.python.org/issue42173#msg379895
>
> Two volunteer core developers and at least one buildbot would help a
> lot to ensure that Python is working on Solaris for real, and reduce
> the number of open Solaris issues. If it happens, I'm perfectly fine
> with keeping Solaris support.
>
> I also hope that more people will contribute to maintain the code, not
> only Ronald and Jesús. Many people wrote to me that Python is a key
> component of Illumos (the package manager is written in Python). So
> maybe Python on Illumos deserves some love?
>
> There are many ways to contribute to the Solaris support of Python:
>
> * Comment Solaris issues (bugs.python.org, search for "Solaris" in the
> title)
> * Propose PRs to fix issues or implement Solaris specific features
> * Review Solaris PRs
> * Provide Solaris servers accessible to Python core developers (SSH access)
> * Donate to the CPython project:
>
>   * https://www.python.org/psf/donations/python-dev/
>   * https://github.com/sponsors/python
>
> * etc.
>
> See also the https://devguide.python.org/ if you would like to
> contribute to Python.
>
> By the way, thanks Jakub Kulík (CC-ed to this email) who fixed
> multiple Solaris issues in the last 2 years ;-)
>
> Victor
> --
> Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
>
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[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-10-30 Thread Ronald Oussoren via Python-Dev 


> On 30 Oct 2020, at 13:54, Victor Stinner  wrote:
> 
> Hi Ronald,
> 
> Le ven. 30 oct. 2020 à 12:59, Ronald Oussoren  a 
> écrit :
>> I agree. That’s what I tried to write, its not just providing a buildbot but 
>> also making sure that it keeps working and stays green.
> 
> This is really great!

Whoa, not so fast. I’m not volunteering work on Solaris support ;-).  There is 
another user on BPO that works on Solaris stuff, see 
https://bugs.python.org/issue41839 .

I have worked with Solaris (and other “classic” UNIX systems) in the past, but 
haven’t do so in at least 15 years.  For me “cross-platform” means macOS, RHEL 
and Windows these days. 

That said, I’m willing to review Solaris PRs (time permitting) but cannot test 
if changes actually work.

[…]
> 
> By the way, thanks Jakub Kulík (CC-ed to this email) who fixed
> multiple Solaris issues in the last 2 years ;-)

That’s the BPO user I mentioned earlier :-)

P.S. Another platform to consider dropping is IRIX, I noticed in your PR that 
there’s still some support for that platform in the code base and according to 
wikipedia IRIX has been out of development for over 14 years 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRIX ).

Ronald___
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[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-10-30 Thread Victor Stinner 
Hi Ronald,

Le ven. 30 oct. 2020 à 12:59, Ronald Oussoren  a écrit :
> I agree. That’s what I tried to write, its not just providing a buildbot but 
> also making sure that it keeps working and stays green.

This is really great!

Jesús Cea Avión is also a volunteer to maintain the Solaris (see the bpo).

Moreover, it seems like some people would like to provide servers to
run a Solaris buildbot. Example:
https://bugs.python.org/issue42173#msg379895

Two volunteer core developers and at least one buildbot would help a
lot to ensure that Python is working on Solaris for real, and reduce
the number of open Solaris issues. If it happens, I'm perfectly fine
with keeping Solaris support.

I also hope that more people will contribute to maintain the code, not
only Ronald and Jesús. Many people wrote to me that Python is a key
component of Illumos (the package manager is written in Python). So
maybe Python on Illumos deserves some love?

There are many ways to contribute to the Solaris support of Python:

* Comment Solaris issues (bugs.python.org, search for "Solaris" in the title)
* Propose PRs to fix issues or implement Solaris specific features
* Review Solaris PRs
* Provide Solaris servers accessible to Python core developers (SSH access)
* Donate to the CPython project:

  * https://www.python.org/psf/donations/python-dev/
  * https://github.com/sponsors/python

* etc.

See also the https://devguide.python.org/ if you would like to
contribute to Python.

By the way, thanks Jakub Kulík (CC-ed to this email) who fixed
multiple Solaris issues in the last 2 years ;-)

Victor
-- 
Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
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[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-10-30 Thread Ronald Oussoren via Python-Dev 


> On 30 Oct 2020, at 10:34, Pablo Galindo Salgado  wrote:
> 
> Regarding having a Solaris buildbot: if someone provides a Solaris buildbot 
> then the deal is that that someone or some other party must look after that 
> buildbot and fix problems that appear in it in a timely manner. Broken 
> buildbots stop releases and I don't want to be in a situation in which I need 
> to halt a release because the Solaris buildbot is broken and there is no-one 
> to fix it in time.
> 
> In the past, we had to dealt with similar situations and not only is 
> stressful but normally ends in me or Victor having to login in a buildbot for 
> a platform that we are not experts on to try to fix it in time.

I agree. That’s what I tried to write, its not just providing a buildbot but 
also making sure that it keeps working and stays green.

Ronald
—

Twitter / micro.blog: @ronaldoussoren
Blog: https://blog.ronaldoussoren.net/ 

> 
> On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, 09:29 Ronald Oussoren via Python-Dev, 
> mailto:python-dev@python.org>> wrote:
> 
> > On 29 Oct 2020, at 22:43, Victor Stinner  > > wrote:
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I propose to drop the Solaris support in Python to reduce the Python
> > maintenance burden:
> > 
> >   https://bugs.python.org/issue42173 
> > 
> > I wrote a draft PR to show how much code could be removed (around 700
> > lines in 65 files):
> > 
> >   https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/23002/files 
> > 
> 
> A significant fraction of that is in comments and documentation. A number of 
> the changes in documentation would be good to go in regardless of the 
> resolution of this proposal.
> 
> > 
> > In 2016, I asked if we still wanted to maintain the Solaris support in
> > Python, because Solaris buildbots were failing for longer than 6
> > months and nobody was able to fix them. It was requested to find a
> > core developer volunteer to fix Solaris issues and to set up a Solaris
> > buildbot.
> > 
> > https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/NOT2RORSNX72ZLUHK2UUGBD4GTPNKBUS/#NOT2RORSNX72ZLUHK2UUGBD4GTPNKBUS
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > Four years later, nothing has happened. Moreover, in 2018, Oracle laid
> > off the Solaris development engineering staff. There are around 25
> > open Python bugs specific to Solaris.
> 
> As another data point: There is someone on BPO that files issues about 
> Solaris on BPO, including PRs. It might be worthwhile to ask that person if 
> they can provide a buildbot (while making clear that this results in the 
> assumption that they’d look after Solaris port).
> 
> If Solaris would get dropped I’d prefer option 2
> 
> Ronald
> —
> 
> Twitter / micro.blog: @ronaldoussoren
> Blog: https://blog.ronaldoussoren.net/ 
> 
> 
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[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-10-30 Thread Antoine Pitrou 
On Fri, 30 Oct 2020 09:34:37 +
Pablo Galindo Salgado  wrote:
> Regarding having a Solaris buildbot: if someone provides a Solaris buildbot
> then the deal is that that someone or some other party must look after that
> buildbot and fix problems that appear in it in a timely manner. Broken
> buildbots stop releases and I don't want to be in a situation in which I
> need to halt a release because the Solaris buildbot is broken and there is
> no-one to fix it in time.
> 
> In the past, we had to dealt with similar situations and not only is
> stressful but normally ends in me or Victor having to login in a buildbot
> for a platform that we are not experts on to try to fix it in time.

Seconded.  Someone providing a buildbot for a fringe platform should
also watch after regressions and be ready to submit patches when
problems arise.

Regards

Antoine.

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[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-10-30 Thread Pablo Galindo Salgado 
Regarding having a Solaris buildbot: if someone provides a Solaris buildbot
then the deal is that that someone or some other party must look after that
buildbot and fix problems that appear in it in a timely manner. Broken
buildbots stop releases and I don't want to be in a situation in which I
need to halt a release because the Solaris buildbot is broken and there is
no-one to fix it in time.

In the past, we had to dealt with similar situations and not only is
stressful but normally ends in me or Victor having to login in a buildbot
for a platform that we are not experts on to try to fix it in time.

On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, 09:29 Ronald Oussoren via Python-Dev, <
python-dev@python.org> wrote:

>
> > On 29 Oct 2020, at 22:43, Victor Stinner  wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I propose to drop the Solaris support in Python to reduce the Python
> > maintenance burden:
> >
> >   https://bugs.python.org/issue42173
> >
> > I wrote a draft PR to show how much code could be removed (around 700
> > lines in 65 files):
> >
> >   https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/23002/files
>
> A significant fraction of that is in comments and documentation. A number
> of the changes in documentation would be good to go in regardless of the
> resolution of this proposal.
>
> >
> > In 2016, I asked if we still wanted to maintain the Solaris support in
> > Python, because Solaris buildbots were failing for longer than 6
> > months and nobody was able to fix them. It was requested to find a
> > core developer volunteer to fix Solaris issues and to set up a Solaris
> > buildbot.
> >
> >
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/NOT2RORSNX72ZLUHK2UUGBD4GTPNKBUS/#NOT2RORSNX72ZLUHK2UUGBD4GTPNKBUS
> >
> > Four years later, nothing has happened. Moreover, in 2018, Oracle laid
> > off the Solaris development engineering staff. There are around 25
> > open Python bugs specific to Solaris.
>
> As another data point: There is someone on BPO that files issues about
> Solaris on BPO, including PRs. It might be worthwhile to ask that person if
> they can provide a buildbot (while making clear that this results in the
> assumption that they’d look after Solaris port).
>
> If Solaris would get dropped I’d prefer option 2
>
> Ronald
> —
>
> Twitter / micro.blog: @ronaldoussoren
> Blog: https://blog.ronaldoussoren.net/
>
>
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[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-10-30 Thread Ronald Oussoren via Python-Dev 

> On 29 Oct 2020, at 22:43, Victor Stinner  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I propose to drop the Solaris support in Python to reduce the Python
> maintenance burden:
> 
>   https://bugs.python.org/issue42173
> 
> I wrote a draft PR to show how much code could be removed (around 700
> lines in 65 files):
> 
>   https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/23002/files

A significant fraction of that is in comments and documentation. A number of 
the changes in documentation would be good to go in regardless of the 
resolution of this proposal.

> 
> In 2016, I asked if we still wanted to maintain the Solaris support in
> Python, because Solaris buildbots were failing for longer than 6
> months and nobody was able to fix them. It was requested to find a
> core developer volunteer to fix Solaris issues and to set up a Solaris
> buildbot.
> 
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/NOT2RORSNX72ZLUHK2UUGBD4GTPNKBUS/#NOT2RORSNX72ZLUHK2UUGBD4GTPNKBUS
> 
> Four years later, nothing has happened. Moreover, in 2018, Oracle laid
> off the Solaris development engineering staff. There are around 25
> open Python bugs specific to Solaris.

As another data point: There is someone on BPO that files issues about Solaris 
on BPO, including PRs. It might be worthwhile to ask that person if they can 
provide a buildbot (while making clear that this results in the assumption that 
they’d look after Solaris port).

If Solaris would get dropped I’d prefer option 2

Ronald
—

Twitter / micro.blog: @ronaldoussoren
Blog: https://blog.ronaldoussoren.net/


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[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-10-30 Thread Christian Heimes 
On 30/10/2020 08.58, Serhiy Storchaka wrote:
> It would make life of Illumos and OpenIndiana developers much harder,
> that can be seen hostile to open source community. It would make the
> code of CPython more rigid, virtually Linux-only with Windows and MacOS
> patches, and as a side effect can make harder porting it to other
> platforms. This is not great.
> 
> If you want to remove platform specific code from CPython source, do you
> consider the idea of removing support of MacOS and maintain it as
> "downstream patches"?

That's an unfair and polarizing comparison. You know as good as I that
macOS is a major platform which is actively used and maintained by
several core developers. I don't recall any core devs that maintain
Solaris port.

PEP-11 lists clear rules about platform support. As long as we don't
have a core developer for Solaris support and stable build bots, I'm all
in favor to remove the platforms.

Christian

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[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-10-30 Thread Serhiy Storchaka 
29.10.20 23:43, Victor Stinner пише:
> * Current best effort support (no change): changes only happen if a
> core dev volunteers to review and merge a change written by a
> contributor.

It is my preference.

Several years ago I tested and fixed Python on OpenIndiana in virtual
machine, but I was not enough motivated and the code gradually degrades.

> * Schedule the removal in 2 Python releases (Python 3.12) and start to
> announce that Solaris support is going to be removed
> 
> * Remove the Solaris code right now (my proposition): Solaris code
> will have to be maintained outside the official Python code base, as
> "downstream patches"

It would make life of Illumos and OpenIndiana developers much harder,
that can be seen hostile to open source community. It would make the
code of CPython more rigid, virtually Linux-only with Windows and MacOS
patches, and as a side effect can make harder porting it to other
platforms. This is not great.

If you want to remove platform specific code from CPython source, do you
consider the idea of removing support of MacOS and maintain it as
"downstream patches"?
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[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-10-30 Thread Kyle Stanley 
+1 to remove support for Solaris going forward. 4 years is plenty of time
to wait for someone to volunteer to maintain it, IMO. So my preference
would be for option 3 to remove it now, but I wouldn't be opposed to option
2 either w/ deprecating support and waiting a couple versions to remove it.
I'm only opposed to option 1, since it seems very likely that it will just
continue to stagnate at this point.

On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 5:49 PM Victor Stinner  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I propose to drop the Solaris support in Python to reduce the Python
> maintenance burden:
>
>https://bugs.python.org/issue42173
>
> I wrote a draft PR to show how much code could be removed (around 700
> lines in 65 files):
>
>https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/23002/files
>
> In 2016, I asked if we still wanted to maintain the Solaris support in
> Python, because Solaris buildbots were failing for longer than 6
> months and nobody was able to fix them. It was requested to find a
> core developer volunteer to fix Solaris issues and to set up a Solaris
> buildbot.
>
>
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/NOT2RORSNX72ZLUHK2UUGBD4GTPNKBUS/#NOT2RORSNX72ZLUHK2UUGBD4GTPNKBUS
>
> Four years later, nothing has happened. Moreover, in 2018, Oracle laid
> off the Solaris development engineering staff. There are around 25
> open Python bugs specific to Solaris.
>
> I see 3 options:
>
> * Current best effort support (no change): changes only happen if a
> core dev volunteers to review and merge a change written by a
> contributor.
>
> * Schedule the removal in 2 Python releases (Python 3.12) and start to
> announce that Solaris support is going to be removed
>
> * Remove the Solaris code right now (my proposition): Solaris code
> will have to be maintained outside the official Python code base, as
> "downstream patches"
>
>
> Solaris has a few specific features visible at the Python level:
> select.devpoll, os.stat().st_fstype and stat.S_ISDOOR().
>
> While it's unclear to me if Oracle still actively maintains Solaris
> (latest release in 2018, no major update since 2018), Illumos and
> OpenSolaris (variants or "forks") still seem to be active.
>
> In 2019, a Solaris blog post explains that Solaris 11.4 still uses
> Python 2.7 but plans to migrate to Python 3, and Python 3.4 is also
> available. These two Python versions are no longer supported.
>
> https://blogs.oracle.com/solaris/future-of-python-on-solaris
>
> The question is if the Python project has to maintain the Solaris
> specific code or if this code should now be maintained outside Python.
>
> What do you think? Should we wait 5 more years? Should we expect a
> company will offer to maintain the Solaris support? Is there a
> motivated core developer to fix Solaris issue? As I wrote, nothing has
> happened in the last 4 years...
>
> Victor
> --
> Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
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[Python-Dev] Re: Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python

2020-10-29 Thread Gregory P. Smith 
I agree, remove Solaris support. Nobody willing to contribute seems
interested.

-gps

--
blame half the typos on my phone.

On Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 2:50 PM Victor Stinner  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I propose to drop the Solaris support in Python to reduce the Python
> maintenance burden:
>
>https://bugs.python.org/issue42173
>
> I wrote a draft PR to show how much code could be removed (around 700
> lines in 65 files):
>
>https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/23002/files
>
> In 2016, I asked if we still wanted to maintain the Solaris support in
> Python, because Solaris buildbots were failing for longer than 6
> months and nobody was able to fix them. It was requested to find a
> core developer volunteer to fix Solaris issues and to set up a Solaris
> buildbot.
>
>
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/NOT2RORSNX72ZLUHK2UUGBD4GTPNKBUS/#NOT2RORSNX72ZLUHK2UUGBD4GTPNKBUS
>
> Four years later, nothing has happened. Moreover, in 2018, Oracle laid
> off the Solaris development engineering staff. There are around 25
> open Python bugs specific to Solaris.
>
> I see 3 options:
>
> * Current best effort support (no change): changes only happen if a
> core dev volunteers to review and merge a change written by a
> contributor.
>
> * Schedule the removal in 2 Python releases (Python 3.12) and start to
> announce that Solaris support is going to be removed
>
> * Remove the Solaris code right now (my proposition): Solaris code
> will have to be maintained outside the official Python code base, as
> "downstream patches"
>
>
> Solaris has a few specific features visible at the Python level:
> select.devpoll, os.stat().st_fstype and stat.S_ISDOOR().
>
> While it's unclear to me if Oracle still actively maintains Solaris
> (latest release in 2018, no major update since 2018), Illumos and
> OpenSolaris (variants or "forks") still seem to be active.
>
> In 2019, a Solaris blog post explains that Solaris 11.4 still uses
> Python 2.7 but plans to migrate to Python 3, and Python 3.4 is also
> available. These two Python versions are no longer supported.
>
> https://blogs.oracle.com/solaris/future-of-python-on-solaris
>
> The question is if the Python project has to maintain the Solaris
> specific code or if this code should now be maintained outside Python.
>
> What do you think? Should we wait 5 more years? Should we expect a
> company will offer to maintain the Solaris support? Is there a
> motivated core developer to fix Solaris issue? As I wrote, nothing has
> happened in the last 4 years...
>
> Victor
> --
> Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
> ___
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>
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