[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 581 has been updated with "Downsides of GitHub" section

[Greg Ewing]

Gregory P. Smith wrote:
But a /separate/ issue is that we /should not try/ to cater to people 
who cannot use a modern up to date self updating trustworthy web browser.


If developers really want people to keep their systems secure, they
need to provide updates that *only* fix security issues, and don't
also change a bunch of other things to the point that the new
version won't work on the same system that the old one did.

--
Greg
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[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 581 has been updated with "Downsides of GitHub" section

[Gregory P. Smith]

On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 9:01 AM Steven D'Aprano  wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 10:26:04AM -0500, Skip Montanaro wrote:
> > > You have missed at least one: the minimum technology requirement for
> > > using Github is a lot more stringent than for Roundup. Github's minimum
> > > system requirements are higher, and it doesn't degrade as well, so
> > > moving to Github will make it much harder for those who are using older
> > > technology. If not exclude them altogether.
> >
> > Is that Git or GitHub? If the latter, more JavaScript bits or something
> else?
>
> I'm referring to Github. I expect it is probably Javascript. Clicking
> hyperlinks is fine, but things like buttons with dropdown menus, the
> hamburger icon, the Clone/Download button etc do nothing when I click on
> them.
>
> For what it's worth, I'm not using an ad blocker but I am using a
> moderately old Firefox.
>

Document this kind of thing, that is fine.

But a *separate* issue is that we *should not try* to cater to people who
cannot use a modern up to date self updating trustworthy web browser.

A browser more than a few months old is a security risk; *we* are not going
to enforce that concept, but we shouldn't go out of our way to support it
either.
The same goes for anyone who disables javascript or uses a content
modifying plugins or extensions in their browser.  Problems caused by that
have a simple solution, it isn't on us to untangle.

-gps
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[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 581 has been updated with "Downsides of GitHub" section

[Lysandros Nikolaou]

Note that there also is a Github CLI at https://github.com/node-gh/gh#issues,
which brings Github Issues to the terminal and which I use regularly. It,
of course, has dependencies and a learning curve of its own, but it might
be a viable alternative for those, whose browsers do not support the Github
web interface. Just mentioning it, so that it's out there.

Of course, I'm sure there are other alternatives as well.

On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 6:03 PM Steven D'Aprano  wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 10:26:04AM -0500, Skip Montanaro wrote:
> > > You have missed at least one: the minimum technology requirement for
> > > using Github is a lot more stringent than for Roundup. Github's minimum
> > > system requirements are higher, and it doesn't degrade as well, so
> > > moving to Github will make it much harder for those who are using older
> > > technology. If not exclude them altogether.
> >
> > Is that Git or GitHub? If the latter, more JavaScript bits or something
> else?
>
> I'm referring to Github. I expect it is probably Javascript. Clicking
> hyperlinks is fine, but things like buttons with dropdown menus, the
> hamburger icon, the Clone/Download button etc do nothing when I click on
> them.
>
> For what it's worth, I'm not using an ad blocker but I am using a
> moderately old Firefox.
>
>
> --
> Steven
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[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 581 has been updated with "Downsides of GitHub" section

[Mariatta]

If loading GitHub website is a technical problem, then it is a pre-existing
condition not caused by PEP 581.

On Sat, Jun 29, 2019, 12:47 AM Steven D'Aprano  wrote:

> You have missed at least one: the minimum technology requirement for
> using Github is a lot more stringent than for Roundup. Github's minimum
> system requirements are higher, and it doesn't degrade as well, so
> moving to Github will make it much harder for those who are using older
> technology. If not exclude them altogether.
>
> I'd submit a PR for this except, well, see above...
>
>
> ᐧ
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[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 581 has been updated with "Downsides of GitHub" section

[Mariatta]

That's being considered in PEP 588:
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0588/#a-github-account-should-not-be-a-requirement

It was a consideration since PEP 581 was written, but got moved to 588.


On Tue, Jul 2, 2019, 8:13 AM Baptiste Carvello <
devel2...@baptiste-carvello.net> wrote:

> Le 28/06/2019 à 18:56, Mariatta a écrit :
> > Hi,
> >
> > I've updated PEP 581 yesterday, adding the "Downsides of GitHub" section.
> >
> > https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0581/#downsides-of-github
>
> Hi,
>
> another missing point: the necessity to register an account with a third
> party's social network, and accept their terms of service. For this
> matter, a GH account is different from a BPO account because it is not
> controlled by the PSF, and must be unique across projects. While I
> understand this privacy concern is not shared by most core devs, it
> should still be acknowledged.
>
> Cheers,
> Baptiste
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[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 581 has been updated with "Downsides of GitHub" section

[Baptiste Carvello]

Le 28/06/2019 à 18:56, Mariatta a écrit :
> Hi,
> 
> I've updated PEP 581 yesterday, adding the "Downsides of GitHub" section.
> 
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0581/#downsides-of-github

Hi,

another missing point: the necessity to register an account with a third
party's social network, and accept their terms of service. For this
matter, a GH account is different from a BPO account because it is not
controlled by the PSF, and must be unique across projects. While I
understand this privacy concern is not shared by most core devs, it
should still be acknowledged.

Cheers,
Baptiste
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[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 581 has been updated with "Downsides of GitHub" section

[Chris Angelico]

On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 2:01 AM Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
>
> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 10:26:04AM -0500, Skip Montanaro wrote:
> > > You have missed at least one: the minimum technology requirement for
> > > using Github is a lot more stringent than for Roundup. Github's minimum
> > > system requirements are higher, and it doesn't degrade as well, so
> > > moving to Github will make it much harder for those who are using older
> > > technology. If not exclude them altogether.
> >
> > Is that Git or GitHub? If the latter, more JavaScript bits or something 
> > else?
>
> I'm referring to Github. I expect it is probably Javascript. Clicking
> hyperlinks is fine, but things like buttons with dropdown menus, the
> hamburger icon, the Clone/Download button etc do nothing when I click on
> them.
>
> For what it's worth, I'm not using an ad blocker but I am using a
> moderately old Firefox.
>

I'd be interested to know whether that's actually an issue with system
requirements (insufficient hardware) or with the age of the browser
(lacking some feature). Particular browser versions aren't supported
forever.

ChrisA
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[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 581 has been updated with "Downsides of GitHub" section

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 10:26:04AM -0500, Skip Montanaro wrote:
> > You have missed at least one: the minimum technology requirement for
> > using Github is a lot more stringent than for Roundup. Github's minimum
> > system requirements are higher, and it doesn't degrade as well, so
> > moving to Github will make it much harder for those who are using older
> > technology. If not exclude them altogether.
> 
> Is that Git or GitHub? If the latter, more JavaScript bits or something else?

I'm referring to Github. I expect it is probably Javascript. Clicking 
hyperlinks is fine, but things like buttons with dropdown menus, the 
hamburger icon, the Clone/Download button etc do nothing when I click on 
them.

For what it's worth, I'm not using an ad blocker but I am using a 
moderately old Firefox.


-- 
Steven
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[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 581 has been updated with "Downsides of GitHub" section

[Steve Holden]

Excellent thought.

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 6:49 PM Ned Deily  wrote:

>
> On Jun 28, 2019, at 12:56, Mariatta  wrote:
> > Some of the items brought up during the language summit:
> > [...]
> > - we should be updating devguide ahead of the actual migration, so core
> developers and release managers have time to review and learn the new
> workflow. (suggested by Ned Deily)
>
> Actually, my suggestion was (and remains :) ) that a modified devguide
> branch should be created *first* as part of the migration design process,
> not later during implementation.  It needs to happen anyway but it would be
> much more effective, I think, to have it available up front to help catch
> any holes during the design and review.
>
> P.S. Thanks for doing this, Marietta!
>
> --
>   Ned Deily
>   n...@python.org -- []
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[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 581 has been updated with "Downsides of GitHub" section

[Skip Montanaro]

> You have missed at least one: the minimum technology requirement for
> using Github is a lot more stringent than for Roundup. Github's minimum
> system requirements are higher, and it doesn't degrade as well, so
> moving to Github will make it much harder for those who are using older
> technology. If not exclude them altogether.

Is that Git or GitHub? If the latter, more JavaScript bits or something else?

Skip
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[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 581 has been updated with "Downsides of GitHub" section

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 09:56:26AM -0700, Mariatta wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I've updated PEP 581 yesterday, adding the "Downsides of GitHub" section.
> 
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0581/#downsides-of-github


You have missed at least one: the minimum technology requirement for 
using Github is a lot more stringent than for Roundup. Github's minimum 
system requirements are higher, and it doesn't degrade as well, so 
moving to Github will make it much harder for those who are using older 
technology. If not exclude them altogether.

I'd submit a PR for this except, well, see above...


-- 
Steven
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[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 581 has been updated with "Downsides of GitHub" section

[Carol Willing]

I agree with you, Ned.

Mariatta, I'm happy to work on an initial pass at the devguide in my fork.

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 10:52 AM Ned Deily  wrote:

>
> On Jun 28, 2019, at 12:56, Mariatta  wrote:
> > Some of the items brought up during the language summit:
> > [...]
> > - we should be updating devguide ahead of the actual migration, so core
> developers and release managers have time to review and learn the new
> workflow. (suggested by Ned Deily)
>
> Actually, my suggestion was (and remains :) ) that a modified devguide
> branch should be created *first* as part of the migration design process,
> not later during implementation.  It needs to happen anyway but it would be
> much more effective, I think, to have it available up front to help catch
> any holes during the design and review.
>
> P.S. Thanks for doing this, Marietta!
>
> --
>   Ned Deily
>   n...@python.org -- []
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-- 
*Carol Willing*

Willing Consulting 

*Signature strengths*
*Empathy - Relator - Ideation - Strategic - Learner*
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[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 581 has been updated with "Downsides of GitHub" section

[Ned Deily]

On Jun 28, 2019, at 12:56, Mariatta  wrote:
> Some of the items brought up during the language summit:
> [...]
> - we should be updating devguide ahead of the actual migration, so core 
> developers and release managers have time to review and learn the new 
> workflow. (suggested by Ned Deily)

Actually, my suggestion was (and remains :) ) that a modified devguide branch 
should be created *first* as part of the migration design process, not later 
during implementation.  It needs to happen anyway but it would be much more 
effective, I think, to have it available up front to help catch any holes 
during the design and review.

P.S. Thanks for doing this, Marietta!

--
  Ned Deily
  n...@python.org -- []
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[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 581 has been updated with "Downsides of GitHub" section

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jun 28, 2019, at 09:56, Mariatta  wrote:
> 
> I've updated PEP 581 yesterday, adding the "Downsides of GitHub" section.
> 
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0581/#downsides-of-github

Thanks Mariatta!

> I plan to update PEP 588 sometime this weekend or next, to incorporate the 
> discussions and suggestions brought up in Python Language Summit 
> 2019:(http://pyfound.blogspot.com/2019/05/mariatta-wijaya-lets-use-github-issues.html)

One of my biggest concerns is how the bpo-metadata -> GH-labels transition is 
going to work.  Will make label management, discoverability, understanding, and 
use too unwieldy if we simply map all the bpo data to labels?  This might be 
one area where we want to get closer interaction with the GH folks on their 
plans or suggestions.

Thanks for all your work on these PEPs.
-Barry



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