[Python-Dev] Re: Should we try to get a complete draft of What's New by b1?

2021-08-12 Thread Ned Deily 
On Aug 12, 2021, at 12:58, Jack DeVries  wrote:
> > If you look at the version picker on docs.python.org you will see that we 
> > already have the docs for 3.10 and 3.11 available. I don't know if they are 
> > updated per release right now or per commit.
> 
> I understand that they are available options. To clarify my suggestion, I 
> think that 3.11 should be updated on a per commit basis (continuous 
> deployment); including updating the what's new pages continuously. If that is 
> not done already, I'm curious if it is been looked into before, and whether 
> it might be possible to set things up like this?

This is mainly from memory so some of the details may be incorrect but it's 
pretty close. The Python docs on python.org come in various formats - on-line 
HTML and various downloadable formats - and in English as well as various 
translated versions. It takes multiple hours on a dedicated virtual server to 
build the complete set of doc products, so updates are done on different 
cycles. The complete set of document products in all languages for branches 
either in feature development (currently 3.11), pre-release (3.10), or bugfix 
(3.9) status, are built and published every 24 hours.  In addition, the on-line 
English html versions for these branches are re-built and published every 3 
hours. Docs for security-fix branches (3.8, 3.7, 3.6) are generally only 
re-built when new releases are made. We also produce archived copies of the 
documentation current as of each release (https://www.python.org/doc/versions/).

Julien Palard is the release team documentation expert who manages the doc 
build and translation processes, along with the PSF IT team headed by Ee 
Durbin. There is some information (not quite up-to-date) in the Dev Guide. The 
infrastructure code is primarily in https://github.com/python/docsbuild-scripts 
and https://github.com/python/psf-salt.

--
  Ned Deily
  n...@python.org -- []

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[Python-Dev] Re: Should we try to get a complete draft of What's New by b1?

2021-08-12 Thread Jack DeVries 
> If you look at the version picker on docs.python.org you will see that we
already have the docs for 3.10 and 3.11 available. I don't know if they are
updated per release right now or per commit.

I understand that they are available options. To clarify my suggestion, I
think that 3.11 should be updated on a per commit basis (continuous
deployment); including updating the what's new pages continuously. If that
is not done already, I'm curious if it is been looked into before, and
whether it might be possible to set things up like this?

I was originally thinking that 3.10 documentation should be deployed
continuously as well, but on further thought I realized that that would put
the beta releases out of sync with the documentation which obviously does
not make any sense. Maybe we could add a new tab to the version picker
called 3.10/HEAD or similar. Maybe there's another solution?

Either way, continuous deployment of documentation for 3.11 (or whatever
version cpython/HEAD is at any given time) seems like it should be the norm
if it isn't already. If that is already the case, I'm sorry for the noise!
I still think that continuous deployment of documentation on the head of
the beta or alpha release branches is worth considering, maybe with a
different label on docs.python.org like "cpython/3.10@latest" or similar.


On Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 12:46 PM Brett Cannon  wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 6:04 AM Jack DeVries 
> wrote:
>
>> On a broader note, how does the deployment pipeline for documentation
>> work? It seems to me that for branches that are in pre-release (3.10) or
>> active development (3.11), the documentation should be continuously
>> deployed, while deployment of changes to earlier documentation should
>> follow minor releases for those versions.
>>
>> Sorry this question is naive -- I don't know how it works currently.
>> Would it be possible to set something like this up?
>>
>
> If you look at the version picker on docs.python.org you will see that we
> already have the docs for 3.10 and 3.11 available. I don't know if they are
> updated per release right now or per commit.
>
> -Brett
>
>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 3:02 AM Serhiy Storchaka 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> 11.08.21 21:35, Brett Cannon пише:
>>> > So my question is whether we want to push to be more diligent about
>>> > updating What's New by b1 so people can provide feedback during the
>>> > betas beyond just reporting breaking changes?
>>>
>>> I think that What's New should be updated as soon as possible,
>>> immediately after the addition of the feature. I started contributing to
>>> Python after reading What's New for one of early alphas of 3.3 (and the
>>> questioned feature was changed later). There were other examples, when
>>> features were advertised in alphas, but were changed after getting a
>>> feedback before betas.
>>>
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[Python-Dev] Re: Should we try to get a complete draft of What's New by b1?

2021-08-12 Thread Brett Cannon 
On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 6:04 AM Jack DeVries  wrote:

> On a broader note, how does the deployment pipeline for documentation
> work? It seems to me that for branches that are in pre-release (3.10) or
> active development (3.11), the documentation should be continuously
> deployed, while deployment of changes to earlier documentation should
> follow minor releases for those versions.
>
> Sorry this question is naive -- I don't know how it works currently. Would
> it be possible to set something like this up?
>

If you look at the version picker on docs.python.org you will see that we
already have the docs for 3.10 and 3.11 available. I don't know if they are
updated per release right now or per commit.

-Brett


>
> On Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 3:02 AM Serhiy Storchaka 
> wrote:
>
>> 11.08.21 21:35, Brett Cannon пише:
>> > So my question is whether we want to push to be more diligent about
>> > updating What's New by b1 so people can provide feedback during the
>> > betas beyond just reporting breaking changes?
>>
>> I think that What's New should be updated as soon as possible,
>> immediately after the addition of the feature. I started contributing to
>> Python after reading What's New for one of early alphas of 3.3 (and the
>> questioned feature was changed later). There were other examples, when
>> features were advertised in alphas, but were changed after getting a
>> feedback before betas.
>>
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>> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>>
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[Python-Dev] Re: Should we try to get a complete draft of What's New by b1?

2021-08-12 Thread Jack DeVries 
On a broader note, how does the deployment pipeline for documentation work?
It seems to me that for branches that are in pre-release (3.10) or active
development (3.11), the documentation should be continuously deployed,
while deployment of changes to earlier documentation should follow minor
releases for those versions.

Sorry this question is naive -- I don't know how it works currently. Would
it be possible to set something like this up?

On Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 3:02 AM Serhiy Storchaka  wrote:

> 11.08.21 21:35, Brett Cannon пише:
> > So my question is whether we want to push to be more diligent about
> > updating What's New by b1 so people can provide feedback during the
> > betas beyond just reporting breaking changes?
>
> I think that What's New should be updated as soon as possible,
> immediately after the addition of the feature. I started contributing to
> Python after reading What's New for one of early alphas of 3.3 (and the
> questioned feature was changed later). There were other examples, when
> features were advertised in alphas, but were changed after getting a
> feedback before betas.
>
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[Python-Dev] Re: Should we try to get a complete draft of What's New by b1?

2021-08-12 Thread Serhiy Storchaka 
11.08.21 21:35, Brett Cannon пише:
> So my question is whether we want to push to be more diligent about
> updating What's New by b1 so people can provide feedback during the
> betas beyond just reporting breaking changes?

I think that What's New should be updated as soon as possible,
immediately after the addition of the feature. I started contributing to
Python after reading What's New for one of early alphas of 3.3 (and the
questioned feature was changed later). There were other examples, when
features were advertised in alphas, but were changed after getting a
feedback before betas.

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[Python-Dev] Re: Should we try to get a complete draft of What's New by b1?

2021-08-11 Thread Eric V. Smith 
Yes, I think we should get it done by b1. For some reason it never 
occurred to me to add this to What's New. Someone just reported this on 
bpo this week. I'll try and get a PR together this week.


Eric (who doesn't feel picked on!)

On 8/11/2021 2:35 PM, Brett Cannon wrote:
Not to specifically pick on Eric V. Smith, but yesterday a co-worker 
came to me asking about `KW_ONLY` for dataclasses and wanting to 
provide feedback 
(https://docs.python.org/3.10/library/dataclasses.html#dataclasses.KW_ONLY 
). 
I said we had reached RC and so it was pretty much too late; the 
alphas and betas are when one should provide feedback.


But then I realized you wouldn't even know about this new feature 
unless you read What's New ... and that's when I found out this new 
feature isn't mentioned (yet). As of right now the only dataclass 
feature documented in the What's New is something about slots 
(https://docs.python.org/3.10/whatsnew/3.10.html#dataclasses 
).


So my question is whether we want to push to be more diligent about 
updating What's New by b1 so people can provide feedback during the 
betas beyond just reporting breaking changes?


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