Re: [Python-Dev] Python developers are in demand
I come from a corporate IT background working as a drone in large businesses, starting about 30 years ago (argh!). I come from an IBM mainframe background, but with constant exposure and interfaces with other platforms, and writing code with a variety of languages and scripting languages throughout my career. I recently completed a very long and painful transition to becoming at least a part time Java developer. For the past several years I have had a background conversation with myself on the topic of the Perfect Programming Language; what would it look like/feel like. Then I stumbled on Python, and I am totally hooked. I gather this experience is similar to others who are now Python advocates, who are using Python for their personal projects, etc. In the short term, though, for the corporate world, it'll probably be an uphill battle to have major projects developed in Python (or even Jython, which would be the logical choice for a transition out of j2ee to the lamp world). There is some amount of resistance to open source software. The same resistance to linux was overcome by 'respectable' companies supporting and interacting on a corporate level, like Red Hat. IBM certainly helped there, too, like it or not. Python would probably do well to have similar corporate advocates, but that would be an expensive and risky business proposition. Short term, I wouldn't expect to be able to make a big paycheck out of Python. As time goes on and the younger programmers who are using Python on their personal and open source projects get into positions of influence in the corporate world that will change. My thoughts, for what it's worth. Fight the good fight! Michael On Fri, 2007-10-26 at 04:28 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Send Python-Dev mailing list submissions to python-dev@python.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can reach the person managing the list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of Python-Dev digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: Python developers are in demand (Nick Efford) 2. Re: Python developers are in demand (Facundo Batista) 3. Re: Python tickets summary (Facundo Batista) 4. Re: Python developers are in demand (Anthony Roy) 5. Re: Python developers are in demand (Kevin Jacobs [EMAIL PROTECTED]) 6. Re: Python developers are in demand (Anna Ravenscroft) 7. Re: Python developers are in demand (Anna Ravenscroft) 8. Re: Python developers are in demand (Titus Brown) 9. Re: Python tickets summary (Ron Adam) 10. Re: Fwd: Deadlock by a second import in a thread (Facundo Batista) -- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 11:58:46 +0100 From: Nick Efford [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] Python developers are in demand To: python-dev@python.org Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Interesting to see discussion on supply and demand issues for Python programmers. You might be interested to learn that, after a few years of flirting with Python in various ways, the School of Computing at the University of Leeds has recently switched to teaching Python as the first and primary programming language for undergraduates on all of our degree programmes. I know we're not the only ones doing this, so perhaps the supply will rise to meet the demand in a few years! Nick -- Dr Nick Efford, School of | E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computing, University of | T: +44 113 343 6809 Leeds, Leeds, LS2 9JT, UK | W: http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/nde/ --+- PGP fingerprint: 6ADF 16C2 4E2D 320B F537 8F3C 402D 1C78 A668 8492 -- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 09:13:48 -0300 From: Facundo Batista [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] Python developers are in demand To: Alex Martelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Martin v. L?wis [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christian Heimes [EMAIL PROTECTED], Python Dev python-dev@python.org Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 2007/10/24, Alex Martelli [EMAIL PROTECTED]: using C++ and Java (and often C), but as far as I know there is no Stanford course (at least not within Symbolic Systems) that focuses specifically and exclusively on Python (there IS one course, In my constant try-to-push-Python-everywhere-I-go, I offered several times Python courses to educational institutions (sometimes even free). I succeeded some times, but then these courses not thrived year after year. Normally, this is because the people that is actually taking
Re: [Python-Dev] Python developers are in demand
Interesting to see discussion on supply and demand issues for Python programmers. You might be interested to learn that, after a few years of flirting with Python in various ways, the School of Computing at the University of Leeds has recently switched to teaching Python as the first and primary programming language for undergraduates on all of our degree programmes. I know we're not the only ones doing this, so perhaps the supply will rise to meet the demand in a few years! Nick -- Dr Nick Efford, School of | E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computing, University of | T: +44 113 343 6809 Leeds, Leeds, LS2 9JT, UK | W: http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/nde/ --+- PGP fingerprint: 6ADF 16C2 4E2D 320B F537 8F3C 402D 1C78 A668 8492 ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python developers are in demand
2007/10/24, Alex Martelli [EMAIL PROTECTED]: using C++ and Java (and often C), but as far as I know there is no Stanford course (at least not within Symbolic Systems) that focuses specifically and exclusively on Python (there IS one course, In my constant try-to-push-Python-everywhere-I-go, I offered several times Python courses to educational institutions (sometimes even free). I succeeded some times, but then these courses not thrived year after year. Normally, this is because the people that is actually taking the decision of which language to teach in the courses do not know Python, so is easier to them to keep teaching C. And this happens even if it's not the better to the students, and even witht the students asking for the change. But this is a problem of educative system here in Argentina, not of Python itself (it surely get affected, though). Regards, -- .Facundo Blog: http://www.taniquetil.com.ar/plog/ PyAr: http://www.python.org/ar/ ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python developers are in demand
Interesting to see discussion on supply and demand issues for Python programmers. You might be interested to learn that, after a few years of flirting with Python in various ways, the School of Computing at the University of Leeds has recently switched to teaching Python as the first and primary programming language for undergraduates on all of our degree programmes. I know we're not the only ones doing this, so perhaps the supply will rise to meet the demand in a few years! I was a researcher in the School of Computing at Leeds Uni about 4 years ago. Good to see them pushing Python! I keep my eyes open for Python Developer roles in the UK (particularly the North), since I would far prefer to develop in Python than Java. However, in the UK Python Jobs seem to be few and far between, and most of the ones that there are are either low paid sys admin type roles, or are based in London. Cheers, -- Anthony Roy ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python developers are in demand
Just to chime in from the other side of the coin. I'm actively trying to hire qualified scientific programmers with strong Python experience. Unfortunately, I've had little success finding candidates with actual Python knowledge, resorting mainly to hiring those who've seen it and can readily learn it on the job. So while it is encouraging that Python is being used as an introductory language, that trend has yet to trickle up to general availability of more advanced practitioners. (The other reason I am having trouble recruiting Pythonistas is that my field -- statistical genetics -- tends to be saturated with Perl folk. Retraining them is a blast...) ~Kevin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python developers are in demand
I noticed at the Grace Hopper Celebration of Women in Computing that several major universities in the US are starting to offer intro (CS1) courses based on Python, among them: Georgia Tech CMU Bryn Mawr Some of them are using: Introduction-Computing-Programming-Multimedia-Approach So, it's starting to get out there... -- cordially, Anna -- Walking through the water. Trying to get across. Just like everybody else. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python developers are in demand
On Oct 25, 2007 7:59 AM, Anna Ravenscroft [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I noticed at the Grace Hopper Celebration of Women in Computing that several major universities in the US are starting to offer intro (CS1) courses based on Python, among them: Georgia Tech CMU Bryn Mawr Some of them are using: Introduction to Computing and Programming in Python, A Multimedia Approach (Paperback) by Mark Guzdial (Author) So, it's starting to get out there... -- cordially, Anna -- Walking through the water. Trying to get across. Just like everybody else. -- cordially, Anna -- Walking through the water. Trying to get across. Just like everybody else. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python developers are in demand
On Thu, Oct 25, 2007 at 07:59:58AM -0700, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: - I noticed at the Grace Hopper Celebration of Women in Computing that - several major universities in the US are starting to offer intro (CS1) - courses based on Python, among them: - Georgia Tech - CMU - Bryn Mawr It's been adopted at Michigan State U. this past year, and I'll be teaching a Web dev followup course *next* year. Python is also being used for bioinformatics at Caltech (not just me) and at Michigan State (with no connection to the intro course). The SciPy conferences have been eye opening as well: adoption here, there, and everywhere. Good to finally see this happening ;) --titus ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python developers are in demand
On 10/12/07, Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I keep getting regular requests from people looking for Python coders (and this is in addition to Google asking me to hand over my contacts :-). This is good news because it suggests Python is on the uptake (always good to know). At the same time it is disturbing because apparently there aren't enough Python programmers out there. (At least none of them looking for work.) What's up with that? At least from my perspective, all the jobs are in web applications, and all the Python developers I know are traditional applications programmers, not web developers. -- Nick ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python developers are in demand
2007/10/24, Nicholas Bastin [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 10/12/07, Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I keep getting regular requests from people looking for Python coders (and this is in addition to Google asking me to hand over my contacts :-). This is good news because it suggests Python is on the uptake (always good to know). At the same time it is disturbing because apparently there aren't enough Python programmers out there. (At least none of them looking for work.) What's up with that? At least from my perspective, all the jobs are in web applications, and all the Python developers I know are traditional applications programmers, not web developers. Get a new set of friends. :-) You can find them on [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python developers are in demand
On 10/12/07, Martin v. Löwis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem may be related to the fact that Python is rarely teached at school or university. I know no school or university in Germany that is teaching Python. I teach Python to the first semester, at the Hasso-Plattner-Institut in Potsdam, for the third year now. My wife (and fellow PSF member;-) Anna, a major in Symbolic Systems at Stanford, has noticed the interesting coincidence that TWO of her courses this quarter suggest Python as the preferred language to do the course assignments (although both courses accept other languages as well, focusing on the results and not the language used to achieve them, the teachers think that Python is the best language to get out of your way and let you focus on the courses' specific subjects rather than on programming problems). The two courses are Computational Linguistics and Computer-Human Interactions. The CHI course also offers a short optional Python seminar for students that want help learning it (I believe the exercises specifically use Nokia phones, so I assume the seminar will also cover the specifics of the Nokia Python development environment); Anna volunteered to do a similar short seminar for the CL course (I helped out -- took us a Saturday). All students taking CHI and/or CL have already taken programming courses (typically more than one), mostly using C++ and Java (and often C), but as far as I know there is no Stanford course (at least not within Symbolic Systems) that focuses specifically and exclusively on Python (there IS one course, Programming Paradigms, that covers Python as well as Lisp, Prolog and some FP language). Of course, Symbolic Systems majors typically don't think of themselves as developers; they're more likely to end up, say, as CHI experts, computational linguists, and the like... Alex ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python developers are in demand
Nick At least from my perspective, all the jobs are in web Nick applications, and all the Python developers I know are traditional Nick applications programmers, not web developers. I find almost the opposite to be true. Most resumes I see with Python experience are quite web-focused. For the open positions in our group I'd much rather see experience doing scientific or database programming with Python than web apps. Skip ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python developers are in demand
Application programmers... Web programmers... I can't resist chiming in that I'm running a 4000-line Python application on my iPhone that is both a full-blown application, and a Web server, because it uses the phone's browser as its application GUI. (By the way, thanks to whoever pushed through the addition of SQLite to Python 2.5. It's been useful on the phone.) I teach an annual short course on Python at PARC; two hours, one for the basics, the other for tricks. That's about all it takes, for folks who already know how to program. Bill ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python developers are in demand
Guido van Rossum guido at python.org writes: I wonder if we should start maintaining a list of Python developers for hire somewhere on python.org, beyond the existing Jobs page. Is anyone interested in organizing this? I would be definitely interested in putting my name on such a list. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python developers are in demand
On 10/16/07, Wolfgang Langner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/15/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wonder if we should start maintaining a list of Python developers for hire somewhere on python.org, beyond the existing Jobs page. Is anyone interested in organizing this? Andrew What about something a little less formal - a mailing list such Andrew as python-jobs? How about just creating a page on the wiki and letting those people participate who are interested? That's a good idea. Post the page and I add my name. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python developers are in demand
I wonder if we should start maintaining a list of Python developers for hire somewhere on python.org, beyond the existing Jobs page. Is anyone interested in organizing this? What about something a little less formal - a mailing list such as python-jobs? -- Andrew McNamara, Senior Developer, Object Craft http://www.object-craft.com.au/ ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python developers are in demand
I wonder if we should start maintaining a list of Python developers for hire somewhere on python.org, beyond the existing Jobs page. Is anyone interested in organizing this? Andrew What about something a little less formal - a mailing list such Andrew as python-jobs? How about just creating a page on the wiki and letting those people participate who are interested? Skip ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python developers are in demand
Guido van Rossum wrote: I keep getting regular requests from people looking for Python coders (and this is in addition to Google asking me to hand over my contacts :-) . This is good news because it suggests Python is on the uptake (always good to know). At the same time it is disturbing because apparently there aren't enough Python programmers out there. (At least none of them looking for work.) What's up with that? I know at least one Python developer who is looking for a Python job - me. :] The problem may be related to the fact that Python is rarely teached at school or university. I know no school or university in Germany that is teaching Python. It's mostly Pascal, Basic or C derivates at school and C/C++, Java or nowadays C# at university. Some courses of studies even teach PHP or Flash! On the other hand Python is gaining big momentum in science. A friend of mine who works at CERN once told me that they use Python as a glue and front end language for their problems. less teaching + growing demand = lack of available developers I wonder if we should start maintaining a list of Python developers for hire somewhere on python.org, beyond the existing Jobs page. Is anyone interested in organizing this? There is definitely an interest in having a list of available developers. What would it take to organize a list? How do we avoid to create yet another XING (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XING), LinkedIn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LinkedIn) or SourceForge Marketplace clone? Could we collaborate with one or multiple major players in the job market? Christian ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python developers are in demand
On 10/12/07, Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I keep getting regular requests from people looking for Python coders (and this is in addition to Google asking me to hand over my contacts :-). This is good news because it suggests Python is on the uptake (always good to know). Yeah, I have noticed as well. I have seen an increase in random emails from people looking for Python developers. At the same time it is disturbing because apparently there aren't enough Python programmers out there. (At least none of them looking for work.) What's up with that? It's still not taught in schools. I still rarely see a new grad student in my lab who has used Python before they meet me. And even after I give a Python tutorial to the lab and people realize it's a great language, they wait until a project comes up where they need to start from scratch to use it. Unfortunately that project never comes up. So I would guess the only people becoming new Python programmers are either the self-motivated people who are curious about the language or people whose job requires it. I wonder if we should start maintaining a list of Python developers for hire somewhere on python.org, beyond the existing Jobs page. Is anyone interested in organizing this? You thinking like contractors or anyone out of work? -Brett ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python developers are in demand
The problem may be related to the fact that Python is rarely teached at school or university. I know no school or university in Germany that is teaching Python. I teach Python to the first semester, at the Hasso-Plattner-Institut in Potsdam, for the third year now. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
