Re: [Python-Dev] Possible language summit topic: buildbots
Martin v. Löwis v.loewis.de> writes: > > It's not really reproducible. I think it sometimes happens when I > restart the master; sometimes, some clients fail to reconnect > (properly). Another common problem is that some buildbot fails in the middle of the test suite, with the following kind of message: command timed out: 1800 seconds without output, killing pid 12325 process killed by signal 9 program finished with exit code -1 elapsedTime=10910.362981 See for example : http://www.python.org/dev/buildbot/trunk.stable/builders/ia64%20Ubuntu%20trunk/builds/73/steps/test/logs/stdio (notice, by the way, the elapsed time (10910s, that is, close to 3 hours...)) Regards Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Possible language summit topic: buildbots
Right, how do developers benefit from a buildbot? >From my experience (five large buildbots with many developers plus two with only a couple of developers), a buildbot does little good unless the tests are reliable and not too noisy. "Reliable" is best achieved by having tests be deterministic and reproducible. "Not too noisy" means that the builders are all green all the time (at least for a "supported" subset of the buildslaves). Beyond that, then I think there has to be a culture change where the development team decides that it is really, really not okay to leave a builder red after you turned it red, and that instead you need to revert the patch that made it go from green to red before you do anything else. It has taken me a long time to acculturate to that and I wouldn't expect most people to do it quickly or easily. (It is interesting to think of what would happen if that policy were automated -- any patch which caused any "supported" builder to go from green to red would be automatically be reverted.) Also, of course, this is mostly meaningless unless the code that is being changed by the patches is well-covered by tests. Regards, Zooko ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Retrieve an arbitrary element from a set without removing it
Chris Bergstresser schrieb: >I like the proposed set.get() method, personally. list.get(index) > gets the item at that index, dict.get(key) gets the item associated > with that key, set.get() gets an item, but doesn't place any > guarantees on which item is returned. Sorry to nitpick, but there is no list.get(). Georg -- Thus spake the Lord: Thou shalt indent with four spaces. No more, no less. Four shall be the number of spaces thou shalt indent, and the number of thy indenting shall be four. Eight shalt thou not indent, nor either indent thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to four. Tabs are right out. ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Retrieve an arbitrary element from a set without removing it
On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Georg Brandl wrote: > Sorry to nitpick, but there is no list.get(). No? How ... odd. I guess it wouldn't have come up, but I was sure there was a .get method which took an optional default parameter if the index didn't exist, mirroring the dict method. Still, I think my point stands--it's a clear extrapolation from the existing dict.get(). -- Chris ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Retrieve an arbitrary element from a set without removing it
Chris Bergstresser schrieb: > On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Georg Brandl wrote: >> Sorry to nitpick, but there is no list.get(). > >No? How ... odd. I guess it wouldn't have come up, but I was sure > there was a .get method which took an optional default parameter if > the index didn't exist, mirroring the dict method. Still, I think my > point stands--it's a clear extrapolation from the existing dict.get(). I don't see that. Both dict.get() and your hypothetical list.get() are variants of the [] subscription operator, i.e. __getitem__, that have a default value, defaulting to None. The [] operator retrieves an element from the object at the specified "position", be it dict key, list index or some other abstract position. Contrary to that, sets don't support subscript access, there is no notion of a value at a specified position, so I would find the set.get() naming confusing. Georg -- Thus spake the Lord: Thou shalt indent with four spaces. No more, no less. Four shall be the number of spaces thou shalt indent, and the number of thy indenting shall be four. Eight shalt thou not indent, nor either indent thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to four. Tabs are right out. ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Retrieve an arbitrary element from a set withoutremoving it
[Chris Bergstresser] Still, I think my point stands--it's a clear extrapolation from the existing dict.get(). Not really. One looks-up a key and supplies a default value if not found. The other, set.get(), doesn't have a key to lookup. A dict.get() can be meaningfully used in a loop (because the key can vary). A set.get() returns the same value over and over again (because there is no key). Raymond ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Retrieve an arbitrary element from a set without removing it
On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Chris Bergstresser wrote: > On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Georg Brandl wrote: >> Sorry to nitpick, but there is no list.get(). > > No? How ... odd. Odd indeed. My first reaction was: it is not needed because lists support slicing, but when I tried to construct a list.get() using slicing the best I could come up with was the following hack >>> def lget(l, i, v): return (l[i:] or [v])[0] ... >>> lget(range(10), 20, 200) 200 >>> lget(range(10), 5, 50) 5 Yet for some reason I never missed this functionality ... ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Retrieve an arbitrary element from a set withoutremoving it
Raymond Hettinger rcn.com> writes: > > [Chris Bergstresser] > Still, I think my > > point stands--it's a clear extrapolation from the existing dict.get(). > > Not really. One looks-up a key and supplies a default value if not found. > The other, set.get(), doesn't have a key to lookup. set.getone() then ? ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Retrieve an arbitrary element from a set withoutremoving it
On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > Raymond Hettinger rcn.com> writes: >> >> [Chris Bergstresser] >> Still, I think my >> > point stands--it's a clear extrapolation from the existing dict.get(). >> >> Not really. One looks-up a key and supplies a default value if not found. >> The other, set.get(), doesn't have a key to lookup. > > set.getone() then ? ugh- other spellings much preferred. Geremy Condra ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Retrieve an arbitrary element from a set withoutremoving it
On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 02:20:04PM -0400, geremy condra wrote: > On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > Raymond Hettinger rcn.com> writes: > > set.getone() then ? > > ugh- other spellings much preferred. set[] ? (Just kidding, really.) Oleg. -- Oleg Broytmanhttp://phd.pp.ru/[email protected] Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Retrieve an arbitrary element from a set withoutremoving it
Raymond Hettinger wrote: A dict.get() can be meaningfully used in a loop (because the key can vary). A set.get() returns the same value over and over again (because there is no key). There are two ideas of set.get floating about: 1) get an arbitrary object 2) get the object in the set with the same 'value'(hash+eq) as an input arg (the intern case). In this case, there is a 'key', even if it is somewhat abstract rather that being an object. Both could be done with the same method, depending on whether an arg is passed or not. The former is not useful in a loop; the latter could be. If there is no match in case 2, the method could a) raise an exception, b) return None (which by its nature would never sensibly be looked up), or c) return an object specified by 'default=xxx' keyword arg. Terry Jan Reedy ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Retrieve an arbitrary element from a set withoutremoving it
On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 12:47 PM, Raymond Hettinger wrote: > [Chris Bergstresser] > Still, I think my >> >> point stands--it's a clear extrapolation from the existing dict.get(). > > Not really. One looks-up a key and supplies a default value if not found. > The other, set.get(), doesn't have a key to lookup. Right, which is why dict.get() takes a key as an argument, while the proposed set.get() wouldn't. > A dict.get() can be meaningfully used in a loop (because the key can vary). > A set.get() returns the same value over and over again (because there is no > key). I don't think "can it be used meaningfully in a loop?" is an especially interesting or useful way of evaluating language features. Besides, why would set.get() necessarily return the same value over and over again? I thought it would be defined to return an arbitrary value--which could be the same value over and over again, but could just as easily be defined to return a round-robin value, or the minimum value, or some *other* value as the container defined it. The fact is, set.get() succinctly describes an action which is otherwise obscure in Python. It doesn't come up all that frequently, but when it does the alternatives are poor at best. Add in the uncertainty about which is optimized (imagine the situation where the set you're calling is actually a proxy for an object across the network, and constructing an iterator is expensive) and you start to see the value. -- Chris ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Retrieve an arbitrary element from a set withoutremoving it
On Oct 27, 2009, at 2:50 PM, Terry Reedy wrote more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more: This topic needs its own flippin' newsgroup. S ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] RELEASED Python 2.6.4
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Barry Warsaw wrote: > On behalf of the Python community, I'm happy to announce the > availability of Python 2.6.4. This is the latest production-ready > version in the Python 2.6 series. > > We had a little trouble with the Python 2.6.3 release; a number of > unfortunate regressions were introduced. I take responsibility for > rushing it out, but the good news is that Python 2.6.4 fixes the known > regressions in 2.6.3. We've had a lengthy release candidate cycle > this time, and are confident that 2.6.4 is a solid release. We highly > recommend you upgrade to Python 2.6.4. > > Please see the NEWS file for all the gory details. > > http://www.python.org/download/releases/2.6.4/NEWS.txt > > Source tarballs and the Windows installers can be downloaded from the > Python 2.6.4 page. The Mac OS X disk image will be uploaded soon. > > http://www.python.org/download/releases/2.6.4/ > > For more information on Python 2.6 in general, please see > > http://docs.python.org/whatsnew/2.6.html > > Please report bugs for any Python version in the Python tracker. > > http://bugs.python.org Congratulations, and thaks for working to correct the issues with the earlier release so quickly. Tres. - -- === Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 [email protected] Palladion Software "Excellence by Design"http://palladion.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkrnRaEACgkQ+gerLs4ltQ5yHACgt9CqCyIE8HfkKCNjSEAU3MB1 A70AoL/yJB9lcI+RrBe3/BlqChCweXvr =K/lR -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Retrieve an arbitrary element from a set withoutremoving it
On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 3:06 PM, [email protected] wrote: > > On Oct 27, 2009, at 2:50 PM, Terry Reedy wrote more and more and more and > more and more and more and more and more and more: > > This topic needs its own flippin' newsgroup. > > S Don't like it? Mute the conversation (thank you gmail) or unsub. ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Retrieve an arbitrary element from a set withoutremoving it
On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Terry Reedy wrote: > There are two ideas of set.get floating about: > 1) get an arbitrary object > 2) get the object in the set with the same 'value'(hash+eq) as an input arg > (the intern case). In this case, there is a 'key', even if it is somewhat > abstract rather that being an object. > > Both could be done with the same method, depending on whether an arg is > passed or not. My gut tells me it is bad API design to collapse these two use cases. Probably because the implementations won't have much in common: (1) should just pick the first valid element, while (2) should use the normal hash lookup algorithm (shared with 'in', .add() etc.). -- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Retrieve an arbitrary element from a set withoutremoving it
On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 3:13 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: > On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Terry Reedy wrote: >> There are two ideas of set.get floating about: >> 1) get an arbitrary object >> 2) get the object in the set with the same 'value'(hash+eq) as an input arg >> (the intern case). In this case, there is a 'key', even if it is somewhat >> abstract rather that being an object. >> >> Both could be done with the same method, depending on whether an arg is >> passed or not. > > My gut tells me it is bad API design to collapse these two use cases. > Probably because the implementations won't have much in common: (1) > should just pick the first valid element, while (2) should use the > normal hash lookup algorithm (shared with 'in', .add() etc.). > > -- > --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) Was it ever decided whether this would fall under the moratorium? Geremy Condra ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Retrieve an arbitrary element from a setwithoutremoving it
[geremy condra] Was it ever decided whether this would fall under the moratorium? Decided isn't the right word: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2009-October/093373.html FWIW, I'm a strong -1 on both proposals. Just add a short get_one() function and a get_equivalent() recipe to your utils directory. That will get the job done (thought I don't expect that you will *ever* make much use of either one). No need to complexify a type that is currently very simple. Raymond P.S. get_equivalent: http://code.activestate.com/recipes/499299/ get_one = lambda s, default=None: next(iter(s), default) The first works with all type that defines __contains__. The second works for any iterable. Neither of these concepts are specific to set objects. ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Python-Dev] Refactoring installation schemes
Hello, Since the addition of PEP 370, (per-user site packages), site.py and distutils/command/install.py are *both* providing the various installation directories for Python, depending on the system and the Python version. We have also started to discuss lately in various Mailing Lists the addition of new schemes for IronPython and Jython, meaning that we might add some more in both places. I would like to suggest a simplification by adding a dedicated module to manage these installation schemes in one single place in the stdlib. This new independant module would be used by site.py and distutils and would also make it easier for third party code to work with these schemes. Of course this new module would be rather simple and not add any new import statement to avoid any overhead when Python starts and loads site.py Regards Tarek ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Retrieve an arbitrary element from a set withoutremoving it
[email protected] wrote: On Oct 27, 2009, at 2:50 PM, Terry Reedy wrote more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more: Actually, I wrote 7 succinct lines that summarized and made a proposal. In general, I snip when quoting and write concisely as possible. This topic needs its own flippin' newsgroup. You need to learn politeness. You could have said just that, appropriate or not, without dumping on anyone in particular. Terry Jan Reedy ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Retrieve an arbitrary element from a set withoutremoving it
On Oct 27, 2009, at 11:02 PM, Terry Reedy wrote: [email protected] wrote: This topic needs its own flippin' newsgroup. You could have said just that, appropriate or not, without dumping on anyone in particular. I was not trying to dump on you in particular, I picked a random message of the trillions that went by and happened to get you. I apologize if you felt dumped on. No offense intended to you in particular but this thread has gone on and on and on and on and on and on... S ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Retrieve an arbitrary element from a setwithoutremoving it
On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Raymond Hettinger wrote: > > [geremy condra] >> >> Was it ever decided whether this would fall under the moratorium? > > Decided isn't the right word: > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2009-October/093373.html > I'm unclear- does that imply that this is this going to be decided on a case-by-case basis in the future or have the details for the big M just not been hammered out yet? Geremy Condra ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python Package Management Roadmap in Python Releases
On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 10:20:03 + (UTC), Antoine Pitrou wrote: > (*) Remember, however, that Tarek and work on Distribute, and also on > bringing pieces of setuptools/Distribute functionality into distutils. But if that's the case then why not work on any third party tool..? like pip or setuptools? It seems are very longwinded process if the only way to work on python is to work on distutils but before doing that you have to first work on distribute and then wait for all the changes to work their way back up the chain.. Actually, I have finally worked out what I want. That is shell support in the python windows distribution so that you can right click an .egg and install it. I don't see how that can be achieved by following the workprocess that you describe above. David ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] nonlocal keyword in 2.x?
2009/10/22 "Martin v. Löwis" : > What use has such a stepping stone? Why, and (more importantly) when > would anybody currently supporting 2.x give up 2.6 and earlier, and > only support 2.7? And, if they chose to do so, why would they not move > the code base to 3.x right away? Python 2 support is not only about supporting old versions of Python, but also supporting users of Python2-only modules. If you have a module that runs only on Python 2.7, the people who for some reason can not move to Python 3 yet, can still use it, by running Python 2.7. For that your module doesn't have to run on 2.6 or 2.5. So 2.7 support will for the most part be a case not of supporting Python versions, but Python *users*. Which is a good thing. -- Lennart Regebro: Python, Zope, Plone, Grok http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Retrieve an arbitrary element from a set withoutremoving it
Guido van Rossum wrote: > My gut tells me it is bad API design to collapse these two use cases. > Probably because the implementations won't have much in common: (1) > should just pick the first valid element, while (2) should use the > normal hash lookup algorithm (shared with 'in', .add() etc.). As a side note, a fairly obvious method name for "add if missing and then return canonical representation" did occur to me: s.intern(x) I'd be -0 on expanding the set API for this though (since the cookbook recipe overloading __eq__ already provides an efficient solution). As far as the moratorium in general goes, perhaps we should draw a line between API changes that affect the ABCs in collections and numbers and new convenience methods on the builtin types themselves? Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | [email protected] | Brisbane, Australia --- ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Retrieve an arbitrary element from a set without removing it
Alexander Belopolsky wrote: > Odd indeed. My first reaction was: it is not needed because lists > support slicing, but when I tried to construct a list.get() using > slicing the best I could come up with was the following hack > def lget(l, i, v): return (l[i:] or [v])[0] > ... lget(range(10), 20, 200) > 200 lget(range(10), 5, 50) > 5 > > Yet for some reason I never missed this functionality ... People tend to do length checks on lists to decide which items are and are not present. You can't do that with a dict. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | [email protected] | Brisbane, Australia --- ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
