Re: [Python-Dev] Looking after the buildbots (in general)

2010-08-05 Thread Jon Ribbens
On Wed, Aug 04, 2010 at 07:26:06PM -0400, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Aug 04, 2010, at 06:39 PM, Steve Holden wrote:
> >I'll see if I can get God to extend it for you.
> 
> No need to involve the supernatural Steve!  Just approve that PSF grant I
> submitted so I can finish my (Python powered of course!) clone army.

Someone else got there ahead of you...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MASSIVE_%28software%29
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Re: [Python-Dev] barry_as_FLUFL

2010-08-05 Thread Greg Ewing

Barry Warsaw wrote:


Wait.  It's a joke?!


Probably, but it's also useful behaviour -- I hope
it stays!

(Not that I would ever presume to use it in any
code inflicted on anyone else, but it's nice to
know I have a choice in the privacy of my own
computer.)

Heil-the-FLUFl-ly,
Greg
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Re: [Python-Dev] Looking after the buildbots (in general)

2010-08-05 Thread Steve Holden
On 8/5/2010 2:19 AM, Georg Brandl wrote:
> Am 05.08.2010 01:26, schrieb Barry Warsaw:
>> On Aug 04, 2010, at 06:39 PM, Steve Holden wrote:
>>
>>> I'll see if I can get God to extend it for you.
>>
>> No need to involve the supernatural Steve!  Just approve that PSF grant I
>> submitted so I can finish my (Python powered of course!) clone army.
> 
> *Now* I know why the PSU abducted all these developers!  To assemble
> a sufficient gene pool...
> 
>>> I honestly do understand that everyone else works under the same 
>>> restrictions
>>> of time that I do ... and I appreciate all the hard work the release 
>>> managers
>>> continue to put in.
>>
>> We know you love us Steve. :)
> 
> In a PHBy way, it seems :)
> 
I'd have thought a pre-requisite for being a PHB was having hair.

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden   +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
DjangoCon US September 7-9, 2010http://djangocon.us/
See Python Video!   http://python.mirocommunity.org/
Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/

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Re: [Python-Dev] OT: PHB (was: Looking after the buildbots)

2010-08-05 Thread Oleg Broytman
On Thu, Aug 05, 2010 at 07:49:31AM -0400, Steve Holden wrote:
> I'd have thought a pre-requisite for being a PHB was having hair.

   Not at all, not at all - being a PHB is a style of thinking, not
hairdressing. ;)

Oleg.
-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] OT: PHB

2010-08-05 Thread Steve Holden
On 8/5/2010 8:12 AM, Oleg Broytman wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 05, 2010 at 07:49:31AM -0400, Steve Holden wrote:
>> I'd have thought a pre-requisite for being a PHB was having hair.
> 
>Not at all, not at all - being a PHB is a style of thinking, not
> hairdressing. ;)
> 
I was simply trying to avoid becoming "The Python PHB" in the folklore.
Sadly I see it is now inevitable - thanks, Georg ;-)

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden   +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
DjangoCon US September 7-9, 2010http://djangocon.us/
See Python Video!   http://python.mirocommunity.org/
Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/

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Re: [Python-Dev] #2651 - KeyError does not round trip strings

2010-08-05 Thread Nick Coghlan
2010/8/5 Fred Drake :
> 2010/8/4 Łukasz Langa :
>> Shall we do an e.index for IndexErrors as well?
>
> I don't recall stumbling over that need, but the parallel makes it
> tempting.  I expect is should be a separate patch, though.
>
> Antoine's right about using keyword args from C, though.  I'd expect a
> new helper function that handles this specific case, since it's likely
> to be common.  Whether it used a keyword are or just performed a
> setattr after the exception is created doesn't really matter.

Yeah, helper functions for C code that accepted the extra arguments
would do the trick.

I actually had a look to see what IOError does with its attributes and
I think it qualifies as being a little on the special side (replicated
in both 2.6 and the py3k branch):

>>> io1 = IOError(1)
>>> io2 = IOError(1, 2)
>>> io3 = IOError(1, 2, 3)
>>> io4 = IOError(1, 2, 3, 4)
>>> io1, io2, io3, io4
(IOError(1,), IOError(1, 2), IOError(1, 2), IOError(1, 2, 3, 4))
>>> io1.errno, io2.errno, io3.errno, io4.errno
(None, 1, 1, None)
>>> io1.strerror, io2.strerror, io3.strerror, io4.strerror
(None, 2, 2, None)
>>> io1.filename, io2.filename, io3.filename, io4.filename
(None, None, 3, None)

One argument = no attributes set
Two arguments = errno, strerror set (including if second argument is
explicitly None)
Three arguments = errno, strerror, filename set
Four or more arguments = no attributes set

Keyword arguments are not supported by IOError (or EnvironmentError,
which is where the above behaviour is actually implemented).

That precedent would deem it acceptable to adopt a backwards
compatible protocol that still allowed arbitrary positional arguments
for Key/Attribute/IndexError, but treated the 2 argument case
specially.

However, the IOError behaviour really doesn't strike me as a
particularly good example for us to be following, so PEP 3151 may want
to consider the issue of tidying up those exception signatures.

The "right" way to go still appears to be to allow arbitrary
positional arguments (which go into .args) for backwards
compatibility, then add appropriate keyword-only arguments. IOError
could get some keyword only arguments as well, retaining the somewhat
odd behaviour above for backwards compatibility reasons (although the
repr in the 3 argument case should be fixed).

Cheers,
Nick.

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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 376 proposed changes for basic plugins support

2010-08-05 Thread Éric Araujo
Hello

Le 03/08/2010 13:09, Michael Foord a écrit :
> On 03/08/2010 09:28, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
>> P.J. Eby wrote:
>>> At 10:37 PM 8/2/2010 +0200, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
> [idea about sqlite3 db for caching]
 [distros won’t like it, the filesystem is the db]
>>> [the db is a cache, it does not replace the files]
>> [advantages of sqlite3 db]
> Sounds good as an "optional extra" (i.e. it should be safe to completely 
> delete the cache file and still have everything work) to me. If the API 
> for using the feature is worked out well first this could be done as a 
> behind the scenes optimisation...

FYI, the current implementation in the distutils2-augmented pkgutil uses
a cache (a function call memo) for functions that e.g. iterate over
dist-info directories (and optionally egg-info directories too) or get a
Distribution object representing an installed project. Tools that modify
the state of the installation can call a function to clear this cache.

A sqlite db would certainly speed things up; it could replace the
existing caching in distutils2 or be left to other tools.

Regards

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Re: [Python-Dev] barry_as_FLUFL

2010-08-05 Thread LD 'Gus' Landis
Hi,

  I just read an interesting article (interview with Fred Brooks).
  See: http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1600886

  Eoin: The book contains a lot of explicit and implicit advice for those
  who must manage design projects. What would your top three pieces
  of advice for such managers be?

  Fred:
  1. Choose a chief designer separate from the manager and give him
  authority over the design and your trust.
  2. Plan for the iterative discovery and screening of requirements.
  3. Prototype (or simulate with models, etc.) early and get real user
  feedback on real use scenarios early and often.

  I immediately thought of the Python "process" as a real life example
  of this working!  Fortunately too, the "crop" of "manager"s is also
  growing!

  Congratulations to all that have been part of this process!!

Cheers,
  --ldl

On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 4:22 AM, Greg Ewing  wrote:
> Barry Warsaw wrote:
>
>> Wait.  It's a joke?!
>
> Probably, but it's also useful behaviour -- I hope
> it stays!
>
> (Not that I would ever presume to use it in any
> code inflicted on anyone else, but it's nice to
> know I have a choice in the privacy of my own
> computer.)
>
> Heil-the-FLUFl-ly,
> Greg
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Re: [Python-Dev] barry_as_FLUFL

2010-08-05 Thread Nick Coghlan
On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 2:25 AM, LD 'Gus' Landis  wrote:
> Hi,
>
>  I just read an interesting article (interview with Fred Brooks).
>  See: http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1600886
>
>  Eoin: The book contains a lot of explicit and implicit advice for those
>  who must manage design projects. What would your top three pieces
>  of advice for such managers be?
>
>  Fred:
>  1. Choose a chief designer separate from the manager and give him
>      authority over the design and your trust.
>  2. Plan for the iterative discovery and screening of requirements.
>  3. Prototype (or simulate with models, etc.) early and get real user
>      feedback on real use scenarios early and often.
>
>  I immediately thought of the Python "process" as a real life example
>  of this working!  Fortunately too, the "crop" of "manager"s is also
>  growing!

There's actually quite a lot open source and proprietary development
in general can learn from each other, but the fact that so many open
source developers *aren'* getting paid means that garbage that is
tolerated in a proprietary setting doesn't happen as much in open
source.

One random thing: the knowledge that your commits are going to be
broadcast immediately to anyone that is interested, as well as
archived permanently on the world wide web is a powerful incentive to:
a) write good code
b) comment anything that is hackish/tremendously complicated
c) write decent checkin messages

Cheers,
Nick.

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