Re: [Python-Dev] Why does the Contributor Agreement need my address?

2018-09-09 Thread Steve Holden 
On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 5:24 AM Joseph C. Sible 
wrote:

> On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 11:47 PM Tim Peters  wrote:
> [...]
> > As to why they want an address, you'll have to ask a
> > lawyer!  There aren't any on this list.  So, if you really want to
> > pursue this, I suggest you direct the question instead to the Python
> > Software Foundation, which deals with the project's legalities:
> >
> > [email protected]
>
> Thanks, this is useful information.
>
> 


There's a reason he was called "the timbot" ;-)
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Re: [Python-Dev] Why does the Contributor Agreement need my address?

2018-09-09 Thread Richard Damon 
On 9/8/18 11:46 PM, Tim Peters wrote:
> [Joseph C. Sible 
>> I'm used to signing CLA's that require nothing beyond a name and a check
>> box. When I went to sign the PSF Contributor Agreement so I can submit
>> a PR for CPython, I was surprised to see that it wants my address. Why
>> does the Python Software Foundation need this, especially when nobody
>> else does?
> So that our marketing partners can deliver exciting consumer shopping
> opportunities directly to your front door ;-)
>
> Seriously, "nobody else does" shows you haven't looked much.  For
> example, the first two I just looked at also require a mailing
> address:
>
> Apache CLA
> https://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.pdf
>
> Android CLA
> https://cla.developers.google.com/clas/new?domain=DOMAIN_GOOGLE&kind=KIND_INDIVIDUAL
>
> So I'll guess that projects big enough to hire actual lawyers require
> an address.  As to why they want an address, you'll have to ask a
> lawyer!  There aren't any on this list.  So, if you really want to
> pursue this, I suggest you direct the question instead to the Python
> Software Foundation, which deals with the project's legalities:
>
> [email protected]
> _
While I am not a lawyer, or even play on on TV, I can imagine that for
such an agreement to really be enforced, they need to know who actually
is agreeing to it. Just a name isn't a unique a unique identifier, so
more information is needed.

-- 
Richard Damon

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Re: [Python-Dev] Why does the Contributor Agreement need my address?

2018-09-09 Thread Antoine Pitrou 
On Sat, 8 Sep 2018 23:11:27 -0400
"Joseph C. Sible"  wrote:
> I'm used to signing CLA's that require nothing beyond a name and a check
> box. When I went to sign the PSF Contributor Agreement so I can submit a PR
> for CPython, I was surprised to see that it wants my address. Why does the
> Python Software Foundation need this, especially when nobody else does?

I don't think I've ever received anything from the PSF by postal mail,
so if you don't want to give out your postal address, or simply don't
have one, then you can probably submit a fake one.

(I've never given that advice of course, you've invented it all by
yourself ;-))

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] Why does the Contributor Agreement need my address?

2018-09-09 Thread Terry Reedy 

On 9/9/2018 1:49 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

On Sat, 8 Sep 2018 23:11:27 -0400
"Joseph C. Sible"  wrote:

I'm used to signing CLA's that require nothing beyond a name and a check
box. When I went to sign the PSF Contributor Agreement so I can submit a PR
for CPython, I was surprised to see that it wants my address. Why does the
Python Software Foundation need this, especially when nobody else does?


I presume others are correct that an address helps as an identifier. 
Python is important enough to be a possible target of copyright 
lawsuits.  The purpose of collecting CLA's for all non-trivial 
contributions is to try to avoid lawsuits and make them easier to defend 
against should one happen anyway.  Part of the CLA is informing 
contributors that we only want code that can be legally contributed, and 
contributors agreeing that they will offer such.



I don't think I've ever received anything from the PSF by postal mail,
so if you don't want to give out your postal address, or simply don't
have one, then you can probably submit a fake one.


DON'T DO THIS, anyone.  If you were to be a defendant or witness in a 
lawsuit, expect to be asked "Did you reside at this address when you 
signed the CLA?"  Lying under oath and admitting that you lied when 
signing are both unpleasant options.


--
Terry Jan Reedy

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Re: [Python-Dev] Why does the Contributor Agreement need my address?

2018-09-09 Thread Antoine Pitrou 
On Sun, 9 Sep 2018 15:15:36 -0400
Terry Reedy  wrote:
> On 9/9/2018 1:49 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> > On Sat, 8 Sep 2018 23:11:27 -0400
> > "Joseph C. Sible"  wrote:  
> >> I'm used to signing CLA's that require nothing beyond a name and a check
> >> box. When I went to sign the PSF Contributor Agreement so I can submit a PR
> >> for CPython, I was surprised to see that it wants my address. Why does the
> >> Python Software Foundation need this, especially when nobody else does?  
> 
> I presume others are correct that an address helps as an identifier. 

It probably does, though it's hardly perfect.  Mostly it can serve as a
contact point, but these days an e-mail address might be more durable
than a postal address (and it's probably a much better identifier too).

> Part of the CLA is informing 
> contributors that we only want code that can be legally contributed, and 
> contributors agreeing that they will offer such.

You don't need someone's postal address to inform them, if you're not
sending them any paper material (which the PSF doesn't, AFAIR).  Asking
a contributor their postal address does not make them better informed.

> > I don't think I've ever received anything from the PSF by postal mail,
> > so if you don't want to give out your postal address, or simply don't
> > have one, then you can probably submit a fake one.  
> 
> DON'T DO THIS, anyone.  If you were to be a defendant or witness in a 
> lawsuit, expect to be asked "Did you reside at this address when you 
> signed the CLA?"

I'm not sure why anyone would ask that question.  Residing somewhere
doesn't have much to do with copyright issues (except when determining
which national law should apply, and perhaps even not).  And a postal
address doesn't have to be where you reside, either : people can very
well have their postal address at a friend's or relative's while not
living there, and they can very well give different postal addresses
for different purposes (just like you can give a different e-mail
address to your professional and personal contacts).

Besides, even in a dysfunctional legal system, I'd be surprised if a
Python copyright lawsuit would involve asking all past Python
contributors (the thousands of them, assuming they can all be
successfully contacted and brought to the court) whether they did
really live at the postal address they once declared on their CLA.

But, yes, perhaps better to leave the entry blank or write "irrelevant",
if the PSF accepts that :-)

Regards

Antoine.


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[Python-Dev] Official citation for Python

2018-09-09 Thread Jacqueline Kazil 
The PSF has received a few inquiries asking the question — “How do I cite
Python?”So, I am reaching out to you all to figure this out.

(For those that don’t know my background, I have been in academia for a bit
as a Ph.D student and have worked at the Library of Congress writing code
to process Marc records , among
other things.)

IMHO the citation for Python should be decided upon by the Python
developers and should live somewhere on the site.

Two questions to be answered…

   1. What format should it take?
   2. Where does it live on the site?

To help frame the first one, I quickly wrote this up —
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1R0mo8EYVIPNkmNBImpcZTbk0e78T2oU71ioX5NvVTvY/edit#

tldr; Summary of possibilities…

   1. Article for one citation (1 DOI, generated by the publication)
   2. No article (many DOIs — one for each major version through Zenodo
    (or similar service))

Discuss.

-Jackie

Jackie Kazil
Board of Directors, PSF
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Re: [Python-Dev] Official citation for Python

2018-09-09 Thread Eric Snow 
On Sun, Sep 9, 2018, 14:19 Jacqueline Kazil  wrote:

> The PSF has received a few inquiries asking the question — “How do I cite
> Python?”So, I am reaching out to you all to figure this out.
>
> (For those that don’t know my background, I have been in academia for a
> bit as a Ph.D student and have worked at the Library of Congress writing
> code to process Marc records ,
> among other things.)
>
> IMHO the citation for Python should be decided upon by the Python
> developers and should live somewhere on the site.
>
> Two questions to be answered…
>
>1. What format should it take?
>2. Where does it live on the site?
>
> To help frame the first one, I quickly wrote this up —
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1R0mo8EYVIPNkmNBImpcZTbk0e78T2oU71ioX5NvVTvY/edit#
>
> tldr; Summary of possibilities…
>
>1. Article for one citation (1 DOI, generated by the publication)
>2. No article (many DOIs — one for each major version through Zenodo
> (or similar service))
>
> Discuss.
>

Hi Jackie!

FWIW, this has come up a few times in the past on python-ideas and/or
python-dev.  Sorry I don't have more info.  Alas, if I were at my computer
I could offer specifics. :)

-eric
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Re: [Python-Dev] Why does the Contributor Agreement need my address?

2018-09-09 Thread Matt Arcidy 
On Sun, Sep 9, 2018, 12:59 Antoine Pitrou  wrote:

>
>
> I'm not sure why anyone would ask that question.


because if they can discredit a witness, they will.

Matt

>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Why does the Contributor Agreement need my address?

2018-09-09 Thread Richard Damon 
On 9/9/18 3:57 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Sep 2018 15:15:36 -0400
> Terry Reedy  wrote:
>> On 9/9/2018 1:49 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>>> On Sat, 8 Sep 2018 23:11:27 -0400
>>> "Joseph C. Sible"  wrote:  
 I'm used to signing CLA's that require nothing beyond a name and a check
 box. When I went to sign the PSF Contributor Agreement so I can submit a PR
 for CPython, I was surprised to see that it wants my address. Why does the
 Python Software Foundation need this, especially when nobody else does?  
>> I presume others are correct that an address helps as an identifier. 
> It probably does, though it's hardly perfect.  Mostly it can serve as a
> contact point, but these days an e-mail address might be more durable
> than a postal address (and it's probably a much better identifier too).
>
A Name + Address is a practically perfect identifier, as most people
have a specific legal address of residence and at that address it is
very unlikely two people have identical legal names. It is this legal
address and legal name that people should be using for these sorts of
legal documents. Government tend to have a vested interest in keeping
track of legal addresses as this tends to have implications in things
like taxes, so piggy backing on this identification can help with
identification for other purposes.

There also tends to be official government documents that can track back
your 'official' address over time, so confirming that you are the Joe
Smith from 15 Main ST, Anytown USA, is possible. Try to think how you
could legally prove you were or were not the owner of
[email protected] 10 years ago, where example.com is some major free
email providers.

-- 
Richard Damon

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Re: [Python-Dev] Official citation for Python

2018-09-09 Thread Steven D'Aprano 
On Sun, Sep 09, 2018 at 03:43:13PM -0400, Jacqueline Kazil wrote:
> The PSF has received a few inquiries asking the question — “How do I cite
> Python?”So, I am reaching out to you all to figure this out.

If you figure it out, it would be lovely to see some movement on this 
ticket:

https://bugs.python.org/issue26597


-- 
Steve
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Re: [Python-Dev] Official citation for Python

2018-09-09 Thread Wes Turner 
"Python Programming Language" (van Rossum, et. Al) 

?

Should there be a URL and/or a DOI?

Figshare and Zenodo will archive a [e.g. tagged] [GitHub] revision and
generate a DOI, AFAIU


On Sunday, September 9, 2018, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:

> On Sun, Sep 09, 2018 at 03:43:13PM -0400, Jacqueline Kazil wrote:
> > The PSF has received a few inquiries asking the question — “How do I cite
> > Python?”So, I am reaching out to you all to figure this out.
>
> If you figure it out, it would be lovely to see some movement on this
> ticket:
>
> https://bugs.python.org/issue26597
>
>
> --
> Steve
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Re: [Python-Dev] Official citation for Python

2018-09-09 Thread Terry Reedy 

On 9/9/2018 3:43 PM, Jacqueline Kazil wrote:
The PSF has received a few inquiries asking the question — 
“How do I cite Python?”So, I am reaching out to you all to figure this out.


(For those that don’t know my background, I have been in academia for a 
bit as a Ph.D student and have worked at the Library of Congress writing 
code to process Marc records , 
among other things.)


IMHO the citation for Python should be decided upon by the Python 
developers and should live somewhere on the site.


Two questions to be answered…

 1. What format should it take?


There are by now formats for citing web documents.  I presume style 
guides now include such.  Try a current version of the Chicago Manual of 
Style.  (not sure of exact title).  I will ask a university professor 
who should know more than I.



 2. Where does it live on the site?


On https://bugs.python.org/issue26597, I suggested the Copyright page. 
I now think a link to 'Citing these Documents' on https://docs.python.org/3/

would be even better.

--
Terry Jan Reedy


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Re: [Python-Dev] Official citation for Python

2018-09-09 Thread Jacqueline Kazil 
Terry -- For clarification, the format question was not a style question.
It was a reference to the one versus many that I wrote in the explainer.
Yes... there are many prescribed formats already. That is the easy part.

-Jackie

On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 11:33 PM Terry Reedy  wrote:

> On 9/9/2018 3:43 PM, Jacqueline Kazil wrote:
> > The PSF has received a few inquiries asking the question —
> > “How do I cite Python?”So, I am reaching out to you all to figure this
> out.
> >
> > (For those that don’t know my background, I have been in academia for a
> > bit as a Ph.D student and have worked at the Library of Congress writing
> > code to process Marc records ,
> > among other things.)
> >
> > IMHO the citation for Python should be decided upon by the Python
> > developers and should live somewhere on the site.
> >
> > Two questions to be answered…
> >
> >  1. What format should it take?
>
> There are by now formats for citing web documents.  I presume style
> guides now include such.  Try a current version of the Chicago Manual of
> Style.  (not sure of exact title).  I will ask a university professor
> who should know more than I.
>
> >  2. Where does it live on the site?
>
> On https://bugs.python.org/issue26597, I suggested the Copyright page.
> I now think a link to 'Citing these Documents' on
> https://docs.python.org/3/
> would be even better.
>
> --
> Terry Jan Reedy
>
>
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-- 
Jacqueline Kazil | @jackiekazil
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Re: [Python-Dev] Official citation for Python

2018-09-09 Thread Terry Reedy 

On 9/9/2018 11:39 PM, Jacqueline Kazil wrote:
Terry -- For clarification, the format question was not a style 
question. It was a reference to the one versus many that I wrote in the 
explainer.


I don't know what you mean by this.


Yes... there are many prescribed formats already. That is the easy part.


Different publications use different citation formats.  We cannot 
dictate which format an author or publication uses.  We could, and I 
think should, suggest the content of the different fields that go into 
the various formats.  And we could give examples of citing, say, the 
Reference Manual, in the most common formats.


On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 11:33 PM Terry Reedy > wrote:


On 9/9/2018 3:43 PM, Jacqueline Kazil wrote:
 > The PSF has received a few inquiries asking the question —
 > “How do I cite Python?”So, I am reaching out to you all to figure
this out.
 >
 > (For those that don’t know my background, I have been in academia
for a
 > bit as a Ph.D student and have worked at the Library of Congress
writing
 > code to process Marc records
,
 > among other things.)
 >
 > IMHO the citation for Python should be decided upon by the Python
 > developers and should live somewhere on the site.


The PSF is the publisher.  It seems that you might be more competent to 
make some of the decisions than are we developers, who have mostly left 
academia some time ago.



 > Two questions to be answered…
 >
 >  1. What format should it take?

There are by now formats for citing web documents.  I presume style
guides now include such.  Try a current version of the Chicago
Manual of
Style.  (not sure of exact title).  I will ask a university professor
who should know more than I.

 >  2. Where does it live on the site?

On https://bugs.python.org/issue26597, I suggested the Copyright page.


To make the answer more visible,


I now think a link to 'Citing these Documents' on
https://docs.python.org/3/
would be even better.


tjr

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