[Python-Dev] Re: Future PEP: Include Fine Grained Error Locations in Tracebacks

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 09.05.2021 14:22, Larry Hastings wrote:
> On 5/9/21 3:00 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
>> BTW: For better readability, I'd also not output the  lines
>> for every stack level in the traceback, but just the last one,
>> since it's usually clear where the call to the next stack
>> level happens in the upper ones.
> 
> 
> Playing devil's advocate: in the un-usual case, where it may be ambiguous 
> where
> the call came from, outputting the  lines could be a real life-saver.
> 
> I concede this is rare,

I'm mostly thinking of tracebacks which go >10 levels deep, which is
rather common in larger applications. For those tracebacks, the top
entries are mostly noise you never look at when debugging. The proposal
now adds another 10 extra lines to jump over :-)

PS: It looks like the discussion has wondered off to Discourse
now. Should we continue there ?

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, May 10 2021)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Support ...https://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Product Development ...https://consulting.egenix.com/


::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
   https://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
 https://www.malemburg.com/

___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/RJ5M5DBEGAXUB4WVG5RKLFAZGOZEZ6G4/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Re: Future PEP: Include Fine Grained Error Locations in Tracebacks

[Henk-Jaap Wagenaar]

On Mon, 10 May 2021 at 08:34, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:

> [...]

PS: It looks like the discussion has wondered off to Discourse
> now. Should we continue there ?
>
> --
> Marc-Andre Lemburg
> eGenix.com
>

Pablo seems to want to redirect the discussion there yes, in particular to:

https://discuss.python.org/t/pep-657-include-fine-grained-error-locations-in-tracebacks/8629

On Sun, 9 May 2021 at 16:25, Pablo Galindo Salgado 
wrote:

> [...]
> The discussion is happening in the discourse server:
>
>
> https://discuss.python.org/t/pep-657-include-fine-grained-error-locations-in-tracebacks/8629
>
> To avoid splitting the discussion, *please redirect your comments there*
> instead of replying to this thread.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Regards from sunny London,
> Pablo Galindo Salgado
>
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/6JBZUB3ABNZYMSDKDED2V2SYFP73QZV6/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Using FutureWarning for last version before deletion.

[Inada Naoki]

Hi, folks.

Now Python 3.11 development is open and I am removing some deprecated
stuffs carefully.

I am considering `configparser.ParseError.filename` property that is
deprecated since Python 3.2.
https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/8e8307d70bb9dc18cfeeed3277c076309b27515e/Lib/configparser.py#L315-L333

My random thoughts about it:

* It has been deprecated long enough.
* But the maintenance burden is low enough.
* If we don't remove long deprecated stuff like this, Python 4.0 will
be a big breaking change.

My proposal:

* Change DeprecationWarning to FutureWarning and wait one more version.
  * DeprecationWarning is suppressed by default to hide noise from end users.
  * But sudden breaking change is more annoying to end users.

I am not proposing to change PEP 387 "Backwards Compatibility Policy".
This is just a new convention.

Another idea:

* Stop suppressing DeprecationWarning by default
* Use at least one PendingDeprecationWarning and one DeprecationWarning.
  * More than two PendingDeprecationWarning periods is preferred.

How do you think?

-- 
Inada Naoki  
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/DLRLO7HKJQK7PB6LHQK7RXYW53F72QR4/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Re: Future PEP: Include Fine Grained Error Locations in Tracebacks

[Terry Reedy]

On 5/10/2021 3:28 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:


I'm mostly thinking of tracebacks which go >10 levels deep, which is
rather common in larger applications. For those tracebacks, the top
entries are mostly noise you never look at when debugging. The proposal
now adds another 10 extra lines to jump over :-)


If the slice were instead marked with color tagging, as I hope will be 
possible in IDLE and other IDEs, then no extra lines well be needed


--
Terry Jan Reedy

___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/RPAFKIZOC2LQY57S4TK4P5O527RGCGPK/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Re: Future PEP: Include Fine Grained Error Locations in Tracebacks

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 05:34:12AM -0400, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 5/10/2021 3:28 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
> 
> >I'm mostly thinking of tracebacks which go >10 levels deep, which is
> >rather common in larger applications. For those tracebacks, the top
> >entries are mostly noise you never look at when debugging. The proposal
> >now adds another 10 extra lines to jump over :-)
> 
> If the slice were instead marked with color tagging, as I hope will be 
> possible in IDLE and other IDEs, then no extra lines well be needed

That's great for people using IDLE, but for those using the vanilla 
Python interpreter, M-A.L makes a good point about increasing the 
vertical size of the traceback which will almost always be ignored.

Its especially the case for beginners. Its hard enough to get newbies to 
read *any* of the traceback. Anything which increases the visual noise 
of that is going to make it harder.


-- 
Steve
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/3ADVDPF4Z5DMXKG2CMJ3JTIN2SC76AUC/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Re: Future PEP: Include Fine Grained Error Locations in Tracebacks

[Irit Katriel via Python-Dev]

Another alternative is instead of

File blah.py line 3:
return x/0
  ^^^

to have

File blah.py line 3 cols 12-14:
  x/0


On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 11:12 AM Steven D'Aprano 
wrote:

> On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 05:34:12AM -0400, Terry Reedy wrote:
> > On 5/10/2021 3:28 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
> >
> > >I'm mostly thinking of tracebacks which go >10 levels deep, which is
> > >rather common in larger applications. For those tracebacks, the top
> > >entries are mostly noise you never look at when debugging. The proposal
> > >now adds another 10 extra lines to jump over :-)
> >
> > If the slice were instead marked with color tagging, as I hope will be
> > possible in IDLE and other IDEs, then no extra lines well be needed
>
> That's great for people using IDLE, but for those using the vanilla
> Python interpreter, M-A.L makes a good point about increasing the
> vertical size of the traceback which will almost always be ignored.
>
> Its especially the case for beginners. Its hard enough to get newbies to
> read *any* of the traceback. Anything which increases the visual noise
> of that is going to make it harder.
>
>
> --
> Steve
> ___
> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
> Message archived at
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/3ADVDPF4Z5DMXKG2CMJ3JTIN2SC76AUC/
> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/YWNDAKU7RYBFWCRMXK3UZEYFE7NLUSNY/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Re: Future PEP: Include Fine Grained Error Locations in Tracebacks

[Pablo Galindo Salgado]

That is going to be very hard to read, unfortunately. Especially when the
line is
not simple. Highlighting the range is quite a fundamental part of the
proposal and
is driven by the great welcoming of highlighting ranges for syntax errors,
which many
users have reached to say that they find it extremely useful as a visual
feature.

Also, people with vision problems have mentioned how important having a
highlighting
section under the code to quickly understand the problem.

On Mon, 10 May 2021 at 11:46, Irit Katriel via Python-Dev <
python-dev@python.org> wrote:

>
> Another alternative is instead of
>
> File blah.py line 3:
> return x/0
>   ^^^
>
> to have
>
> File blah.py line 3 cols 12-14:
>   x/0
>
>
> On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 11:12 AM Steven D'Aprano 
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 05:34:12AM -0400, Terry Reedy wrote:
>> > On 5/10/2021 3:28 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
>> >
>> > >I'm mostly thinking of tracebacks which go >10 levels deep, which is
>> > >rather common in larger applications. For those tracebacks, the top
>> > >entries are mostly noise you never look at when debugging. The proposal
>> > >now adds another 10 extra lines to jump over :-)
>> >
>> > If the slice were instead marked with color tagging, as I hope will be
>> > possible in IDLE and other IDEs, then no extra lines well be needed
>>
>> That's great for people using IDLE, but for those using the vanilla
>> Python interpreter, M-A.L makes a good point about increasing the
>> vertical size of the traceback which will almost always be ignored.
>>
>> Its especially the case for beginners. Its hard enough to get newbies to
>> read *any* of the traceback. Anything which increases the visual noise
>> of that is going to make it harder.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Steve
>> ___
>> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
>> Message archived at
>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/3ADVDPF4Z5DMXKG2CMJ3JTIN2SC76AUC/
>> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>>
> ___
> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
> Message archived at
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/YWNDAKU7RYBFWCRMXK3UZEYFE7NLUSNY/
> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/WTWY2SZOKY7Y3MKVCETB4ILIBK7BQNYK/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Re: On the migration from master to main

[Martin (gzlist) via Python-Dev]

On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 at 21:39, Python Steering Council
 wrote:
>
> This isn’t happening because GitHub/Microsoft made a political decision. It’s 
> happening because it is incredibly easy to make this move, many projects have 
> already done this, and it reflects badly on any project not making this 
> change.

"We do this not because it's right, but because it's easy."

Great to see Python adopting the motto of our new century.

Martin
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/DDYQXHYATCMPD3W2OHETZLTVN5DJ4VIO/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] The importance of mental health

[Kyle Stanley]

Hey all,

In these last few months, I have been in the process of healing from some
pretty heavy past trauma. And now that I am on the road to recovery, I want
to share my journey with the Python community in hopes that it may reach
those that are struggling with their own mental health battles, as many of
us are during these dark and difficult times.

Trigger warning that it includes a decent amount of highly personal
content, so only check it out if you are okay with that:
https://discuss.python.org/t/break-from-open-source/6372/7?u=aeros.

To anyone that would limit my employment opportunities as a result of
having had these struggles, *that's perfectly okay*. I kept the post in the
private section because I was originally in fear of discriminate. However,
I have reached an important conclusion: *I would not want to work for your
company if you discriminate against people who have overcome past struggles*
.

-- 
--Kyle R. Stanley, Python Core Developer (what is a core dev?
)
*Pronouns: they/them **(why is my pronoun here?*

)
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/3H6JIULWOTFYMJLWOBFO7PM4RAOEL74U/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Re: a name for the ExceptHandler.type when it is a literal tuple of types

[Thomas Grainger]

I opened a new thread here: 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-id...@python.org/thread/WQOMBT4Z22EIFB53WN54E52AYS3QBKAV/
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/VGXHBXGKOYOKUP6TAEJIZVYBY2QFVPR2/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Re: The importance of mental health

[The Walking Trade]

Hello Kyle,

I don't personally know you but I am glad you are on the recovery side.

Regards
Karim

Le lun. 10 mai 2021 à 09:20, Kyle Stanley  a écrit :

> Hey all,
>
> In these last few months, I have been in the process of healing from some
> pretty heavy past trauma. And now that I am on the road to recovery, I want
> to share my journey with the Python community in hopes that it may reach
> those that are struggling with their own mental health battles, as many of
> us are during these dark and difficult times.
>
> Trigger warning that it includes a decent amount of highly personal
> content, so only check it out if you are okay with that:
> https://discuss.python.org/t/break-from-open-source/6372/7?u=aeros.
>
> To anyone that would limit my employment opportunities as a result of
> having had these struggles, *that's perfectly okay*. I kept the post in the
> private section because I was originally in fear of discriminate. However,
> I have reached an important conclusion: *I would not want to work for your
> company if you discriminate against people who have overcome past
> struggles*
> .
>
> --
> --Kyle R. Stanley, Python Core Developer (what is a core dev?
> )
> *Pronouns: they/them **(why is my pronoun here?*
> <
> http://feministing.com/2015/02/03/how-using-they-as-a-singular-pronoun-can-change-the-world/
> >
> )
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/2WZRXW44TGPXDUV5JI75TY5LGO6XMJ5I/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Important: Python3.10 what's new

[Pablo Galindo Salgado]

Hi everyone,

Now that we are in the beta period for 3.10 is very important that we make
sure that all
improvements, new APIs and deprecations are reflected in the 3.10 what's
New document.

IMPORTANT!!

If you have worked on:

* Make a PEP that affects Python 3.10.
* A new feature/class/function/argument/option...
* Deprecating something.
* Remove something.
* Improve something important.

Please, make sure is reflected on the What's new document for Python 3.10.
Users normally don't
read the changelog directly and learn about what's available from the
What's New document so
you *absolutely* want your work to be reflected there. *Small* tutorials
and small code samples
and descriptions are a fantastic thing to add as well.

Specially for deprecations and removals, this is our public window to the
world so that learn what's
coming or how to port code to Python 3.10.

Thanks for helping to make Python3.10 a great release.

Regards from sunny London,
Pablo Galindo Salgado
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/DC37BKDIPECMRHZSXI3RSBTWE3TOKLDZ/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Re: Future PEP: Include Fine Grained Error Locations in Tracebacks

[Terry Reedy]

On 5/10/2021 6:07 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 05:34:12AM -0400, Terry Reedy wrote:

On 5/10/2021 3:28 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:


I'm mostly thinking of tracebacks which go >10 levels deep, which is
rather common in larger applications. For those tracebacks, the top
entries are mostly noise you never look at when debugging. The proposal
now adds another 10 extra lines to jump over :-)


If the slice were instead marked with color tagging, as I hope will be
possible in IDLE and other IDEs, then no extra lines well be needed


That's great for people using IDLE, but for those using the vanilla
Python interpreter, M-A.L makes a good point about increasing the
vertical size of the traceback which will almost always be ignored.


The vanilla interpreter could be updated to recognize when it is running 
on a similated 35-year-old terminal that implements ansi-vt100 color 
codes rather than a similated 40+-year-old black-and-white teletype-like 
terminal.


Making the enhancement available to nonstandard python-coded interfaces 
is a separate issue.



Its especially the case for beginners. Its hard enough to get newbies to
read *any* of the traceback. Anything which increases the visual noise
of that is going to make it harder.



--
Terry Jan Reedy

___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/MX5MNQN5WFETYXDE3OK5X6I7BEGUQTQ3/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] python-iterators mailing list on SourceForge

[Julien Palard via Python-Dev]

Hi,

PEP 234 mention
https://sourceforge.net/p/python/mailman/python-iterators/ but the
project mailing list archives are marked as "hidden".

Looks like projects admin and developers can get the "hidden link", but
I think it would be nice to "unhide" the archives if someone is still
admin there and if it's possible, to "unbreak" the link from the PEP.

Bests,
--
[Julien Palard](https://mdk.fr)

___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/SN5RMHWBWKRRP5ZKONKERJY3VQODRZMT/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/