Re: [Python-ideas] Python certification

[Patrick Morris]

Hi all

Thanks to all for feedback on the question, and I will follow up with it 
on the other channels suggested!


thanks

Patrick

On 10/08/2018 01:11, Wes Turner wrote:
edu-sig may be a good list for such a discussion; though you may find 
more information on Python lessons aligned with CS/Science curriculum 
standards than professional certification.

https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig

> This list is for discussion of Python in education, however (at the 
request of a majority of readers) explicitly excluding educational 
politics.


https://www.google.com/search?q=python+certification+psf

- Wiki content from 2008
- https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-certification-for-a-Python-programmer


On Thursday, August 9, 2018, Steven D'Aprano > wrote:


On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 06:40:23PM +0100, Jonathan Fine wrote:
> Hi Oleg
>
> You wrote
>
> >In what way certification programs are related to
documentation,
> > especially to the tutorial?
>
> One way is through syllabus. Necessarily, a certification via exam
> requires a syllabus (or a course of study). There is, implicitly, a
> syllabus in https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/
.

I think that Oleg asked the wrong question. With sufficient
imagination,
it is always possible to draw *some* kind of relationship or
connection
between virtually any two concepts, "six degrees of separation"
kind of
thing.

A better question is, how are questions about third-party
certification
programmes on-topic to this mailing list?

"This list is to contain discussion of speculative language ideas
for Python for possible inclusion into the language."
- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas


Third-party certification is not a speculative language idea for
Python.
It's not even an idea for documentation about existing language
features. Third-party trainers and teachers may, or may not, mine the
standard Python docs and tutorial for concepts, but regardless of
whether they do or not, I think that discussions about third-party
certification programmes are off-topic and should be taken to
either a
specialised mailing list or SIG (if there is one):

https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo


or to Python-List.


-- 
Steve

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Re: [Python-ideas] Python certification

[Wes Turner]

edu-sig may be a good list for such a discussion; though you may find more
information on Python lessons aligned with CS/Science curriculum standards
than professional certification.
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig

> This list is for discussion of Python in education, however (at the
request of a majority of readers) explicitly excluding educational politics.

https://www.google.com/search?q=python+certification+psf

- Wiki content from 2008
- https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-certification-for-a-Python-programmer


On Thursday, August 9, 2018, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 06:40:23PM +0100, Jonathan Fine wrote:
> > Hi Oleg
> >
> > You wrote
> >
> > >In what way certification programs are related to documentation,
> > > especially to the tutorial?
> >
> > One way is through syllabus. Necessarily, a certification via exam
> > requires a syllabus (or a course of study). There is, implicitly, a
> > syllabus in https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/.
>
> I think that Oleg asked the wrong question. With sufficient imagination,
> it is always possible to draw *some* kind of relationship or connection
> between virtually any two concepts, "six degrees of separation" kind of
> thing.
>
> A better question is, how are questions about third-party certification
> programmes on-topic to this mailing list?
>
> "This list is to contain discussion of speculative language ideas
> for Python for possible inclusion into the language."
> - https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas
>
> Third-party certification is not a speculative language idea for Python.
> It's not even an idea for documentation about existing language
> features. Third-party trainers and teachers may, or may not, mine the
> standard Python docs and tutorial for concepts, but regardless of
> whether they do or not, I think that discussions about third-party
> certification programmes are off-topic and should be taken to either a
> specialised mailing list or SIG (if there is one):
>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo
>
> or to Python-List.
>
>
> --
> Steve
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>
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Re: [Python-ideas] Python certification

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 06:40:23PM +0100, Jonathan Fine wrote:
> Hi Oleg
> 
> You wrote
> 
> >In what way certification programs are related to documentation,
> > especially to the tutorial?
> 
> One way is through syllabus. Necessarily, a certification via exam
> requires a syllabus (or a course of study). There is, implicitly, a
> syllabus in https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/.

I think that Oleg asked the wrong question. With sufficient imagination, 
it is always possible to draw *some* kind of relationship or connection 
between virtually any two concepts, "six degrees of separation" kind of 
thing.

A better question is, how are questions about third-party certification 
programmes on-topic to this mailing list?

"This list is to contain discussion of speculative language ideas
for Python for possible inclusion into the language."
- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas

Third-party certification is not a speculative language idea for Python. 
It's not even an idea for documentation about existing language 
features. Third-party trainers and teachers may, or may not, mine the 
standard Python docs and tutorial for concepts, but regardless of 
whether they do or not, I think that discussions about third-party 
certification programmes are off-topic and should be taken to either a 
specialised mailing list or SIG (if there is one):

https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo

or to Python-List.


-- 
Steve
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Re: [Python-ideas] Python certification

[Chris Barker via Python-ideas]

On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 10:40 AM, Jonathan Fine  wrote:

>  There is, implicitly, a
> syllabus in https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/.
>

The tutorial, is, well, a tutorial, it is by no means a complete course of
study. So no, I don't think it's an appropriate place to start to develop a
certification.

Here's a couple of Python syllabuses (the first proprietary, the
> second perhaps open)
>
> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/learning/exam-98-381.aspx
> https://pythoninstitute.org/pcap-exam-syllabus/


I am developing this:

https://uwpce-pythoncert.github.io/PythonCertDevel/index.html

Which we use for a "Certificate" program, which is NOT a "certification".

But I like to think we've put together a pretty good curriculum.

I hope this is enough to persuade you that this topic is appropriate
> for python-ideas. Of course, if you know a better forum for this, that
> would be welcome.


This really isn't the right forum -- maybe the tutor list?

 https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor

But if you think you want to develop a certification, you need to find
like-minded people to do it.

-CHB


-- 

Christopher Barker, Ph.D.
Oceanographer

Emergency Response Division
NOAA/NOS/OR(206) 526-6959   voice
7600 Sand Point Way NE   (206) 526-6329   fax
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Re: [Python-ideas] Python certification

[Jonathan Fine]

Hi Oleg

You wrote

>In what way certification programs are related to documentation,
> especially to the tutorial?

One way is through syllabus. Necessarily, a certification via exam
requires a syllabus (or a course of study). There is, implicitly, a
syllabus in https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/.

Here's a couple of Python syllabuses (the first proprietary, the
second perhaps open)

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/learning/exam-98-381.aspx
https://pythoninstitute.org/pcap-exam-syllabus/

I think it would help, to compare such syllabuses to the one implicit
in the Python Tutorial. It may be, of course, that there's somewhere
better than python-ideas for having the related discussion.

I hope this is enough to persuade you that this topic is appropriate
for python-ideas. Of course, if you know a better forum for this, that
would be welcome.

-- 
Jonathan
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Re: [Python-ideas] Python certification

[Oleg Broytman]

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 05:42:58PM +0100, Jonathan Fine  
wrote:
> Python's excellent documentation, including
> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/, is in my opinion part of the
> language. I'm in favour of discussing Patrick's question here, so that
> we can perhaps develop something of value that can be added to the
> tutorial.
> 
> Is there a forum, better than python-ideas, for discussing speculative
> ideas for improving Python's documentation?

   In what way certification programs are related to documentation,
especially to the tutorial?

> -- 
> Jonathan

Oleg.
-- 
Oleg Broytmanhttps://phdru.name/p...@phdru.name
   Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
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Re: [Python-ideas] Python certification

[Jonathan Fine]

Hi Patrick and Oleg

Thank you, respectively, for a good question and a helpful response.

Patrick asks:

> Does anyone know of any PSF approved training or certifications for Python 
> developers?

Oleg writes:

> The python-ideas list is for discussing more speculative design ideas of 
> Python the language and the implementation.

According to https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas

> This list is to contain discussion of speculative language ideas for Python 
> for possible inclusion into the language.

Python's excellent documentation, including
https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/, is in my opinion part of the
language. I'm in favour of discussing Patrick's question here, so that
we can perhaps develop something of value that can be added to the
tutorial.

Is there a forum, better than python-ideas, for discussing speculative
ideas for improving Python's documentation?

-- 
Jonathan
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Re: [Python-ideas] Python certification

[Oleg Broytman]

Hi!

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 03:56:29PM +0100, Patrick Morris  
wrote:
> Hi all
> 
> I know this might be a contentious question but ...
> 
> Does anyone know of any PSF approved training or certifications for Python
> developers?
> 
> There is this 10 year old page
> https://wiki.python.org/psf/Certification%20Proposal but I dont see any
> evidence that this was ever progressed past the discussion of it.

   Why not ask PSF? See contacts at https://www.python.org/psf/

> Assuming there is no such thing as PSF approval, are there any
> certifications / training course that people would recommend, or would
> recognise for someone seeking employment with them?

   I think the question is better suited for comp.lang.python
newsgroup/general mailing list. The python-ideas list is for discussing
more speculative design ideas of Python the language and the
implementation.

> thanks
> 
> Patrick

Oleg.
-- 
Oleg Broytmanhttps://phdru.name/p...@phdru.name
   Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
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