pywinauto 0.2.1 released - lots of new functionality
Hi, The 0.2.1 release of pywinauto is now available. pywinauto is a set of open-source (LGPL) modules for using Python as a GUI automation 'driver' for Windows NT based Operating Systems (NT/W2K/XP). SourceForge project page: http://sourceforge.net/projects/pywinauto Download from SourceForge http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=157379 Here is the list of changes: 0.2.1 Small Release number - big changes 17-Feb-2006 * Quick release to get many changes out there - but this release has been less tested then I would like for a 0.3.0 release. * Allow access to non text controls using the closest Text control. This closest text control will normally be the static/label associated with the control. For example in Notepad, Format-Font dialog, the 1st combobox can be refered to as FontComboBox rather than ComboBox1 * Added a new control wrapper - ``PopupMenuWrapper`` for context menu's You can now work easily with context menu's e.g. :: app.Notepad.Edit.RightClick() # need to use MenuClick rather then MenuSelect app.PopupMenu.MenuClick(Select All) app.Notepad.Edit.RightClick() app.PopupMenu.MenuClick(Copy) I could think of merging the ``RightClick()`` and ``MenuSelect()`` into one method ``ContextMenuSelect()`` if that makes sense to most people. * Added Support for Up-Down controls * Not all top level windows now have a FriendlyClassName of Dialog. I changed this because it made it hard to get windows of a particular class. For example the main Notepad window has a class name of Notepad. This was primarily implemented due to work I did getting the System Tray. * Renamed ``StatusBarWrapper.PartWidths()`` to ``PartRightEdges()`` as this is more correct for what it returns. * Changed HwndWrapper.Text() and SetText() to WindowText() and SetWindowText() respectively to try and make it clearer that it is the text returned by GetWindowText and not the text that is visible on the control. This change also suggested that EditWrapper.SetText() be changed to SetEditText() (though this is not a hard requirement EditWrapper.SetText() still exists - but may be deprecated. * Added ClickInput, DoubleClickInput, RightClickInput, PressMouseInput ReleaseMouseInput to HwndWrapper - these use SendInput rather then WM_LBUTTONDOWN, WM_RBUTTONUP, etc used by Click, DoubleClick etc. I also added a MenuClick method that allows you to click on menu items. This means you can now 'physically' drop menus down. * Some further working with tooltips that need to be cleaned up. * Fixed a bug where coordinates passed to any of the Click operations had the X and Y coordinates swapped. * Added new MenuItem and Menu classes that are to the most part hidden but you can get a menu item by doing :: app.Notepad.MenuItem(View) app.Notepad.MenuItem(View-Status Bar) MenuItems have various actions so for example you can use ``MenuItem.IsChecked()`` to check if the menu item is checked. Among other methods there are ``Click()`` and ``Enabled()``. * Modified the 'best match' algorithm for finding controls. It now searches a couple of times, and tries to find the best fit for the text passed to it. The idea here is to make it more Select what I want - not that other thing that looks a bit like what I want!. It is possible this change could mean you need to use new identifiers in scripts - but in general very little modification should be necessary. There was also a change to the algorithm that looked for the closest text control. It missed some obvious controls in the previous implementation. It also had a bug for controls above the control rather than to the left. * Added a new example scripts SaveFromInternetExplorer.py and SaveFromFirefox.py which show automating downloading of a page from either of these browsers. * Added yet more unit tests, there are now a total of 134 tests. If you want to follow this project then please sign up to the mailing list: https://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/pywinauto-users Thanks Mark Mark Mc Mahon Manchester, NH 03110, USA PA HREF=http://sourceforge.net/projects/pywinauto;pywinauto 0.2.1/A Simple Windows GUI automation with Python. (17-Feb-06) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-announce-list Support the Python Software Foundation: http://www.python.org/psf/donations.html
PyGreSQL 3.8 released
PyGreSQL v3.8 has been released. It is available at: ftp://ftp.PyGreSQL.org/pub/distrib/PyGreSQL-3.8.tgz. If you are running NetBSD, look in the packages directory under databases. There is also a package in the FreeBSD ports collection. Please refer to changelog.txt for things that have changed in this version. Please refer to readme.txt for general information. -- D'Arcy J.M. Cain PyGreSQL Development Group http://www.PyGreSQL.org -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-announce-list Support the Python Software Foundation: http://www.python.org/psf/donations.html
SPE IDE videos and more...
I'm happy to spread the word about showmedo.com, an excellent collection of python programming videos. From the website http://showmedo.com/videoListPage?listKey=TheBigPythonList: Want to learn how to use some of the best Python programming tools out there, including the supercharged IPython interpreter and the great free editor SPE? Or maybe you want to see how easy it is to create great-looking, powerful graphical user interfaces using wxPython. If so, take a gander at the videos below. They have two SPE specific videos: Python with Stani's Python Editor (SPE) Two videos to demonstrate editing and debugging of Python code using the excellent SPE toolkit. Python Development and Navigation with SPE -- SPE is a well-featured cross-platform development environment for Python. Here I show you how to write a simple Python program, save the code, run it and navigate using the Explorer, Index and UML Viewer. Complimentary material can be found in the manual and the tutorial at http://www.serpia.org. Debugging with WinPDB from Within SPE -- The WinPDB graphical debugger can be launched from within SPE to debug Python code. Here I show how to launch the debugger, step through the code and stack frame, inspect variables and exit back to SPE. I also explain the significance of the Magic Letters. The SPE videos area available at the url: http://showmedo.com/videoListPage?listKey=PythonDevelopmentWithSPE. Contribute back to your favorite open source projects by submitting your own python videos to this wonderfull project! If you need inspiration look at the requested videos: http://showmedo.com/requests Who will make the first wxGlade video? Anyone who contributes a video can request a SPE pdf manual as a reward. Stani -- http://pythonide.stani.be http://pythonide.stani.be/screenshots http://pythonide.stani.be/manual/html/manual.html -- PS Other python videos have as topic: Beginning Python -- Three videos covering the download and installation of the Python programming language on a Windows machine and a small introduction to the Python interpreter. Python Development with IPython -- Four videos leading you through the installation and basic mastery of the powerful IPython interactive Python environment Python GUI Programming with wxPython -- A series of videos for beginners showing how easy it is to quickly develop professional looking graphical user interfaces exploiting the ease and power of the Python programming language. wxPython is fast becomming one of the most popular cross-platform GUI programming solutions. This set of videos aims to show you why. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-announce-list Support the Python Software Foundation: http://www.python.org/psf/donations.html
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 23:35:27 -0600, DH wrote: I'm wondering if someone can explain to me please what it is about Python that is so different from Lisp that it can't be compiled into something as fast as compiled Lisp? From this above website and others, I've learned that compiled Lisp can be nearly as fast as C/C++, so I don't understand why Python can't also eventually be as efficient? Is there some *specific* basic reason it's tough? Or is it that this type of problem in general is tough, and Lisp has 40+ years vs Python's ~15 years? It is by design. You make it sound like Guido sat down to design a language and deliberately put Slow first on his list of desired attributes. Why such a negative tone to your post? Python is not slow by design. Python is dynamically typed by design, and relative slowness is the trade-off that has to be made to give dynamic types. The Python developers have also done marvels at speeding up Python since the early days, with the ultimate aim of the PyPy project to make Python as fast as C, if not faster. In the meantime, the question people should be asking isn't Is Python fast? but Is Python fast enough?. Python is dynamically typed. It is essentially an interpreted scripting language like javascript or ruby or perl, although python fans will be quick to tell you python is compiled to byte code. You make it sound like Python fans are bending the truth. That Python compiles to byte-code is an objective fact which can be learnt by anyone, not just Python fans. In that regard, Python is closer to Java than Perl or Javascript. Only without the slow startup time of the JRE. They'll also be quick to tell you: -python has true closures (although nothing like ruby's blocks) They're also nothing like Pascal's with statements either. Why make the comparison with Ruby's blocks when the original poster is comparing Python to Lisp? -is beginner friendly (despite being case sensitive and 3/4==0, for example) Case sensitivity isn't beginner unfriendly. It is sloppy thinker unfriendly. Whether you have been programming for thirty days or thirty years, if you don't know the difference between foo and FOO you have a serious problem. As they say, case is the difference between I helped my Uncle Jack off a horse and I helped my uncle jack off a horse. As for the difference between integer division and true division, yes, that was an unfortunate design decision. Fortunately it is being rectified in the least painful way possible. -is not, in fact, slow at all (despite benchmarks as you noted showing otherwise). I've asked this question before, but obviously there is a particular mindset that just doesn't get it. Slow compared to what? Slow to do what? For those who don't understand the difference between faster and fast enough, perhaps a simple analogy will bring enlightenment. For most people, under most circumstances, an ordinary car (top speed around 75 mph or so) is fast enough, more convenient, and much better value for money than the significantly faster F-15 fighter plane (top speed around 1850 mph). On modern hardware, for the vast majority of applications, the execution speed of the language is not the limiting factor. I/O or the algorithm is usually the limiting factor. Change your algorithm is often better advice than change your language. That's not to say that Python isn't objectively SLOWER (note the relative term, not absolute) than some languages. But execution speed is rarely the most important factor in choice of a language. For those tasks that language speed is a limiting factor (say, writing devise drivers, operating systems, and similar), Python may not be fast enough. But they are the exception rather than the rule, and there are no shortage of ways around that: Psycho, C extensions, or even choose another language. -- Steven. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: os.mkdir simple help
On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 23:51:42 -0800, m.wanstall wrote: test = input(Please enter project name: ) setupProject(test) If I enter roger as my input I get : NameError: name 'roger' is not defined I know it's incredibly simple but help would be much appreciated! Thanks in advance! input takes the user-entered string and evaluates it as a Python expression. You want raw_input(). -- Steven. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Multiplication optimization
Paul McGuire wrote: Does Python's run-time do any optimization of multiplication operations, like it does for boolean short-cutting? That is, for a product a*b, is there any shortcutting of (potentially expensive) multiplication operations no. and the reason is very simple: to the extent such optimization makes sense, it has been done on assembler/CPU level already. i.e. when the multiplication is mapped to the machine code IMUL op the Pentium processor would be smart enough not to do the work if AX or the op are 0 or 1. Python has no job trying to outsmart Intel (and the other chipmakers). Boolean shortcuts are useful for entirely different reason, not speed. e.g. if lastDigit == 0 or i % lastDigit != 0: break if both operands of OR were to be evaluated, that would end up with division-by-zero exception for lastDigit=0. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
what [is it] about Python that is so different from Lisp that it can't be compiled into something as fast as compiled Lisp? IMO, it's the lack of competing implementations. LISP has a very well-defined ANSI specification. Lots of different people have written LISPs, from Franz to Steel Bank to GNU to... etc. Each of these competes with the others on different grounds; some are purely interpreted (ala CLISP), some are compiled (CMUCL), some are... etc. They all implement substantially the same language, but the plethora of different implementations has been a tremendous boon for the development of efficient compilers, interpreters and garbage collectors. By comparison, Python lacks anywhere near as many competing implementations. In some respects the lack of competing implementations is a Good Thing. In some respects it's a Bad Thing. On balance it's just a thing. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: os.mkdir simple help
That's got it, thanks Steven! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: aborting without killing the python interpreter
import sys def main(): print 'exiting' sys.exit() try: main() except SystemExit: pass I suspect I may need to use exceptions, but I'm hoping not to need them. Thanks. Use the Exceptions! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Komodo - Will it Lock Me In?
Matt Trivisonno napisał(a): Any other thoughts on Komodo? I am considering it because I am hoping to find a solution to the install-packages-until-you-go-blind aspect of Python. Setting up a serious, cross-platform, gui development environment is quite a struggle for a newbie. Komodo is nice and plays well with programmer, although it's still an editor with few additions, available elsewhere for free (i.e. in PyDev or even in advanced editors like jEdit or Kate). -- Jarek Zgoda http://jpa.berlios.de/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: general coding issues - coding style...
On 2006-02-18, Justin Azoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi all,
Dylan Moreland wrote:
I would look into one of the many Vim scripts which automatically fold
most large blocks without the ugly {{{.
Who needs a script?
set foldmethod=indent
works pretty well for most python programs.
Well, foldmethod=marker does not bother me, because the folds are
normally closed. With markers, it takes one line per function, with
indent I see 2, so I prefer markers.
..and since I can easily get rid of them, and add them again, I will at
least remove them before e.g. putting to the web or so.
Cheers and thanks,
calmar
--
calmar
(o_ It rocks: LINUX + Command-Line-Interface
//\
V_/_ http://www.calmar.ws
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: ANN: FreeImagePy 1.2.2
Andrew Gwozdziewycz wrote: Knowing some details about PIL and as good as no details about FreeImage, I would like in this context to become enlightened by the answer to the question, when does it make sense to use FreeImage instead of PIL? From what I know up to now I can't see any use for FreeImage :-( . both freeimagepy and freeimage are released under the GPL, PIL is not. -- Andrew Gwozdziewycz [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ihadagreatview.org http://plasticandroid.org Did you read the PIL licence? Seems to be a more free licence than GPL. A. Software License The Python Imaging Library is: Copyright © 1997-2003 by Secret Labs AB Copyright © 1995-2003 by Fredrik Lundh By obtaining, using, and/or copying this software and/or its associated documentation, you agree that you have read, understood, and will comply with the following terms and conditions: Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its associated documentation for any purpose and without fee is hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice appears in all copies, and that both that copyright notice and this permission notice appear in supporting documentation, and that the name of Secret Labs AB or the author not be used in advertising or publicity pertaining to distribution of the software without specific, written prior permission. SECRET LABS AB AND THE AUTHOR DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES WITH REGARD TO THIS SOFTWARE, INCLUDING ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS. IN NO EVENT SHALL SECRET LABS AB OR THE AUTHOR BE LIABLE FOR ANY SPECIAL, INDIRECT OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OR ANY DAMAGES WHATSOEVER RESULTING FROM LOSS OF USE, DATA OR PROFITS, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, NEGLIGENCE OR OTHER TORTIOUS ACTION, ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE USE OR PERFORMANCE OF THIS SOFTWARE. Uwe -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Should we still be learning this?
Em Sáb, 2006-02-18 às 15:13 +0200, Max escreveu: I wonder if they need some updating. And so does Dive Into Python (our textbook, diveintopython.org) which has the same deficiencies in its outline. Are they being *paid* for teaching? Then they should overcome this issue of Dive Into Python by either using their own material our by improving Dive Into Python and giving it back to the community. -- Quem excele em empregar a força militar subjulga os exércitos dos outros povos sem travar batalha, toma cidades fortificadas dos outros povos sem as atacar e destrói os estados dos outros povos sem lutas prolongadas. Deve lutar sob o Céu com o propósito primordial da 'preservação'. Desse modo suas armas não se embotarão, e os ganhos poderão ser preservados. Essa é a estratégia para planejar ofensivas. -- Sun Tzu, em A arte da guerra -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
The question about the speed is interesting. Generally the more dynamic and flexible your language is, the slower are the programs it produces. Lisp is almost unique in such matters (and in this regard it's maybe better than CPython) because it allows the programmer to mix and blend different levels of how much dynamism and how much optimized a part of the program has to be. When you want to speed up a part of a Lisp program (often developed starting from a slow but flexible code) you start to use more specific functions, unboxed variables, simple arrays of unboxed data, statically typed variables, etc. It's not easy, but if you have some experience, often than one year, in that way you can write programs only 20% or 50% slower than ones written in C, so for most purposes they become fast enough. On the other hand you can develop the program using an interactive shell and a dynamically typed language, that speeds you a lot the prototyping, etc. You can have the best of both things. Python allows to mix various blends too (Psyco, Pyrex, ShedSkin, Weave, SWIG, glues for Fortran and C/C++, etc), but in Lisp such blending seems much more natural, finer grained, integrated in the language. I think this isn't a limit of the language itself, because with enough work two tools like Psyco and ShedSkin can become integrated in the language itself (I think Psyco and SS are enough for 98% or purposes) producing something not far from the optimization flexibility of Lisp. Psyco compiles just in time some code, ShedSkin is more aggressive, but if it becomes developed enough it can produce programs fast as C/C++ ones with the same syntax of Python (some things aren't supported). So then you can develop a program like in Lisp, where some parts aren't optimized, some parts are compiled just in time, and other critical parts are type inferenced and statically compiled for the max speed (this requires to join ShedSkin with something like Swig, to allow a natural, fully automatic and pythonic joining of .PYDs produced by SS and CPython programs). PyPy can probably solve such problems in similar ways or better, we'll see. Bye, bearophile -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: ANN: FreeImagePy 1.2.2
Uwe Grauer wrote: Did you read the PIL licence? Seems to be a more free licence than GPL. footnote: PIL's using the old Python license, which is also known as the Historical Permission Notice and Disclaimer: http://www.opensource.org/licenses/historical.php /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: general coding issues - coding style...
On 2006-02-18, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, 1585 if sys.path[0][-12:] == \library.zip: #for py2exe if sys.path[0].endswith( \\library.zip ): cool, thx, (did you really mean one back-slash there?) (yeah, one backslash) 499 tuple = os.path.split(filename) bad variable name... tuple(x) converts a sequence to a tuple. I see, I changed that to path, filen = os.path.split(filename) You have a number of places where you check for len(x)==0: 674 if len(files) == 0: -- if not files: I see. thx you should run your code through pychecker (it had a lot to say...). I see, cool tool that pychecker! I can't do something against the 'not used variable' so probably? (since pygtk just sends those items anyway) You use global alot... that should be a red flag. Like the poster above mentioned, you have things that are telling you they want to be objects. I will try to get some order (classes) and maybe remove them. thanks a lot!! cheers, calmar -- calmar (o_ It rocks: LINUX + Command-Line-Interface //\ V_/_ http://www.calmar.ws -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
How to configure proxy authentication when using urllib2?
I use a HTTP proxy to connect to Internet. When I run ulropen command I get HTTP Error 407: Proxy authorization required. Could anybody tell me how to resolve this? Thanks! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How to configure proxy authentication when using urllib2?
I want to know that, too! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
DH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -python has true closures (although nothing like ruby's blocks) What is a true closure? Or, maybe what I'm asking is what kind of closure wouldn't be a true closure? Is there some kind of ersatz closure other language try to pass off, in violation of truth in closure laws? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: commenting out blocks of code
Steve Holden wrote: Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 19:12:01 -0500, Peter Hansen wrote: Scite, for example, lets me selected a block and hit Ctrl-Q to either comment or uncomment the block. (It does this by prefixing each line with #~ instead of just #, which allows it to detect when a line is already so commented and reverse the operation.) It is *easy* to detect when a line is already commented. It starts with a #. The ~ is superfluous. Commenting and uncommenting should be two different commands: the whole point of nested comments is that it allows you to comment a block of text which may already contain comments. Having one command do both commenting and uncommenting according to the presence or absence of semantic clues in the text is a recipe for failure (No you stupid computer, I want to COMMENT that block, not uncomment it!!!). Imagine if your text editor used cntl-C for both copy and paste, somehow guessing whether you wanted to copy selected text or paste over it according to some subtle clue in the text itself. Wouldn't that be fun? I agree that's a less-than-sensible feature implementation. I submit that Steve and Steven (neither of whom has apparently even *used* this feature of Scite before criticizing it so strongly), should consider whether in actual practice something like this might not be much more effective than they can apparently imagine. I'm strongly critical of many features of most editors, and thus use very few of them, and I also happen to have a solid background in GUI design and ergonomics. I'm also a heavy user of Scite, and have found it readily accepted amongst the groups of programmers with whom I've worked. I and my team have found the Ctrl+Q feature of Scite to be very sensible, highly effective and useful, and in fact *better* than alternatives that we've used before in other editors. Kudos to Neil for having the (apparently) unusual design sense to think of it and implement it! So there. Harumph. :-) -Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How to configure proxy authentication when using urllib2?
Licheng Fang napisał(a): I use a HTTP proxy to connect to Internet. When I run ulropen command I get HTTP Error 407: Proxy authorization required. Could anybody tell me how to resolve this? Thanks! You can build and install opener instance, then all urllib2 calls will use it. Some information: http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/articles/urllib2.shtml#proxies, one of many cookbook recipes: http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/456195. Generally, there's much more to google on this topic. -- Jarek Zgoda http://jpa.berlios.de/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
Robert J. Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: LISP has a very well-defined ANSI specification. Lots of different people have written LISPs, from Franz to Steel Bank to GNU to... etc. Each of these competes with the others on different grounds; some are purely interpreted (ala CLISP), some are compiled (CMUCL), some are... etc. They all implement substantially the same language, but the plethora of different implementations has been a tremendous boon for the development of efficient compilers, interpreters and garbage collectors. It's been a while since I've dabbled in lisp, but my recollection is that the plethora of different implementations has also meant that portability is a fantasy. I dread the day that competing Python implementations spring up. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How many web framework for python ?
Bo Yang a écrit : Hello everybody , I am a student major in software engeering . I need to do something for my course . There are very good web framework for java and ruby , Is there one for python ? In fact, there are actually too much *good* python web frameworks. I want to write a web framework for python based on mod_python as my course homework , could you give some advise ? Yes : forget it. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
Hallöchen! Roy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [...] It's been a while since I've dabbled in lisp, but my recollection is that the plethora of different implementations has also meant that portability is a fantasy. I dread the day that competing Python implementations spring up. Even worse: In one of them Microsoft is involved. Tschö, Torsten. -- Torsten Bronger, aquisgrana, europa vetusICQ 264-296-646 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
Roy Smith wrote: I dread the day that competing Python implementations spring up. where were you in 1997? http://www.python.org/workshops/1997-10/proceedings/hugunin.html /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Get parameters from URL using CGI
import cgi import cgitb; cgitb.enable() # Optional; for debugging only print Content-Type: text/html print f = cgi.FieldStorage() for i in f.keys(): print p,i,:,f[i].value abcd wrote: i want to create a CGI script which simply prints out values given via the URL (such as when a GET is performed). So if I have a script named, foo.cgi and I access it by going to: http://www.somesite.com/cgi-bin/foo.cgi?name=johnage=90 I want foo.cgi to print out: name: john age: 90 how do i get the values from the URL like that? thanks -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Any Tkinker based rich text widget?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am using the standard python GUI Tkinter as my program's main interface. Although I know wxPython has some widget to support rich text widget, but I do not have time to shift to wx series. Does anyone know any Tkinter based widget that support: 1. Blod, Italic, Underline and their combinations. 2. Several most commonly used fonts, like Times New Roman and Arial 3. Multiline text 4. Cross platform support. Available in Linux-RedHat and Mac OS series and Windows 2000 or above. 5.Image embedding. Support jpeg, gif, bmp. The more the better. and better support: Hyperlink, Text color, the more the better. Tkinter's standard Text widget can do all this, of course: http://effbot.org/tag/Tkinter.Text by default, Tkinter only supports GIF and PPM, but you can use PIL's ImageTk.PhotoImage class instead of Tkinter's own PhotoImage to get support for ~30 more formats: http://www.pythonware.com/products/pil/ http://effbot.org/tag/PIL.ImageTk to deal with hyperlinks, use tag event bindings: http://effbot.org/zone/tkinter-text-hyperlink.htm ::: there's in fact a complete browser built on top of Tk's Text widget: http://grail.sourceforge.net/ but I don't know how much work it would be to widgetize that application. hope this helps! /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: 2-dimensional data structures
anthonyberet wrote: I want to work on a sudoku brute-forcer, just for fun. ... Thanks for the advice (to everyone in the thread). I think I will go with nested lists. However, I am running into a conceptual problem. My approach will be firstly to remove all the impossible digits for a square by searching the row and column for other occurances. However, I wondering how to approach the search of the nine regions of the grid. I am thinking of producing another nested list, again 9x9 to store the contents of each region, and to update this after each pass through -and update of- the main grid (row and column). I am not sure how to most efficiently identify which region any given square on the grid is actually in - any thoughts, for those that have done this? - I don't want a massive list of IF conditionals if I can avoid it. Some 'UselessPython' : import math def SudokuOrder( length ): block_length = int(math.sqrt(length)) for block in range(length): row_offset = block_length * ( block // block_length ) col_offset = block_length * ( block % block_length ) for i in range( block_length ): for j in range( block_length ): yield i+row_offset, j+col_offset grid = list(SudokuOrder(9)) BLOCK1 = grid[:9] BLOCK2 = grid[9:18] BLOCK9 = grid[72:81] print print 'BLOCK1 -', BLOCK1 print print 'BLOCK2 -', BLOCK2 print print 'BLOCK9 -', BLOCK9 BLOCK1 - [(0, 0), (0, 1), (0, 2), (1, 0), (1, 1), (1, 2), (2, 0), (2, 1), (2, 2)] BLOCK2 - [(0, 3), (0, 4), (0, 5), (1, 3), (1, 4), (1, 5), (2, 3), (2, 4), (2, 5)] BLOCK9 - [(6, 6), (6, 7), (6, 8), (7, 6), (7, 7), (7, 8), (8, 6), (8, 7), (8, 8)] Gerard -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
IMO, it's the lack of competing implementations. I beg to differ in this point. There are other implementations, but they are not called python and they are not a 100% python in syntax and features. For example, Boo is 95% python syntax wise, but statically typed. This fundamental difference makes it as fast as C# or any other .NET (or mono) language. Being statically typed doesn't mean that you have to declare types everywhere, like in C. It uses type inference, so you can declare a variable x= 5 and the compiler will know that x is an integer of value 5. Pyrex is statically typed too, but it's used mainly as an extension language for Cpython. Now talking specifically about python, there are projects aimed at speeding it up substantially: Pypy is a project that relies heavily in type inference (for translation to lower level code) and dynamic optimization. It's based mainly on psyco, which has already probed that it can massively speed up python code. Shed-Skin: it's a pyton-to-c++ compiler. It won't support the most dynamic features of python, and requires the programmer to restric a little bit his coding style in order to allow static compilation, but so far it looks great (only one developer though..). -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: define loop statement?
Benji York [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Here's a flagrant hack: Admiration wins out over revulsion. ;-) Thanks, Alan Isaac PS Here's the motivation. Python closely resembles pseudocode. With a very little LaTeX hacking, it is often possible to write algorithms is Python that typeset as reasonable pseudocode. A simple repetitive loop is a bit of a sticking point. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Python multithreading on cluster system? Embedding python in PVM?
Hi guys.I have read that one cannot perform true multithreading in python due to global interpreter lock mechanism.Suppose i have to implement a crawler on a say cluster system like clusterknoppix so that i can use parallel virtual machine (PVM)for programming in multiprocessor environment or say open MPI.Can i integrate python with PVM or MPI.Can i embed python into C for programming in multiprocessor environment.Is there any way of embedding python in PVM or MPI so that i can implement a true cluster based search engine? Any help would be very kind.Thanks. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How many web framework for python ?
Bruno Desthuilliers enlightened us with: I want to write a web framework for python based on mod_python as my course homework , could you give some advise ? Yes : forget it. Why forget it? I've written my own web framework (http://www.unrealtower.org/) and it works great! It was a good learning experience in using mod_python. Besides that, I found the existing frameworks not quite suitable to my taste, and I like my own much more. Please, feel free to take a look at it, and let me know what you think ;-) Sybren -- The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself? Frank Zappa -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
Luis M. González[Shed-Skin] ... but so far it looks great (only one developer though..). Two developers, I am there too :-) I think people aren't much interested so far because there aren't good ways to link/join/use SSPython compied code from CPython code. A good solution is probably to: - Develop code in CPython - find if there are slow spots that Psyco can't improve enough - in this situation move the parts in a module and do some tweaks to adapt the code (if necessary) - compile the .py module (to a .pyd, etc) with SS (a single click can be enough on some operating systems), and then import it as before. To do this it SS requires to know the types of the input data of the functions/classes in the module. There are solutions to this, the simpler one to me seems to infer such types from the code below the if __name__ == __main__: That part can contain tests of all the functions/classes, so such parts can be used to infer types of the whole module. To do this automatically SS has to use something like SWIG. Other developers can probably help with such things, otherwise SS will probably be dead in a year from now... this is not good for me. Bye, bearophile -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Should we still be learning this?
Felipe Almeida Lessa wrote: Em Sáb, 2006-02-18 às 15:13 +0200, Max escreveu: I wonder if they need some updating. And so does Dive Into Python (our textbook, diveintopython.org) which has the same deficiencies in its outline. Are they being *paid* for teaching? Then they should overcome this issue of Dive Into Python by either using their own material our by improving Dive Into Python and giving it back to the community. Indeed they are. It is a university course. It doesn't actually cover anything I don't know, but it's a choice between relearning Java and relearning Python (since I plan to major in computer science, I have to do first year) --Max -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Should we still be learning this?
John Zenger wrote: Don't overly concern yourself with your course being 100% up to date. When learning programming, the concepts are what is important, not the syntax or libraries you happen to be using. Even if they were to teach you the latest and greatest features of 2.4.2, that would be out of date in a few months/years when the next version comes along and the Python gods decide to deprecate the entire os module or something. All of us know how to program: the idea is that those who got more than 70% for Java in high school can learn a second language instead of doing Java all over again. And BTW, map and filter are such useful concepts that it makes sense to teach them to students even if they will one day be deprecated in Python. If you want to teach yourself Haskell or a Lisp dialect (and you should!), knowing those concepts will come in very handy. True. But I think list comprehensions are also damn useful (and AFAIR, Haskell has them too). I already know some Scheme (I've played the game Lists And Lists, a Scheme tutorial, and used the GIMP's script-fu). I have tried to learn Haskell, but - though I think I understand everything I read on it - I can't get my programs to run. --Max -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
Terry Reedy [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] In learning Python I've read more about Lisp than when I was actually trying to learn it, and it seems that the two languages have lots of similarities: http://www.norvig.com/python-lisp.html I'm wondering if someone can explain to me please what it is about Python that is so different from Lisp that it can't be compiled into something as fast as compiled Lisp? From this above website and others, I've learned that compiled Lisp can be nearly as fast as C/C++, In order to be that fast, some of the dynamism of intepreted Lisp must be given up. In particular object code is not list data. I'm not entirely sure what you are talking about, but you're almost certainly very confused about something. Not all common lisp implementations even have an interpreter (which doesn't tend to be visible to the user). 'as -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How many web framework for python ?
Bruno Desthuilliers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... There are very good web framework for java and ruby , Is there one for python ? In fact, there are actually too much *good* python web frameworks. Dear Mr. BDFL, there are too many good web frameworks nowadays. Please eliminate three. PS: I am *not* a crackpot! Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Roy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: DH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -python has true closures (although nothing like ruby's blocks) What is a true closure? Or, maybe what I'm asking is what kind of closure wouldn't be a true closure? Is there some kind of ersatz closure other language try to pass off, in violation of truth in closure laws? It's an apt question. What's a true closure? That's the easiest part, in some ways: Wikipedia, for example, tells that it's a function that refers to free variables in its lexical context URL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closure_%28computer_science%29 , that is the context of the domain of the function's definition. Some languages--Lisp, but also many others--definitely have it. Basic definitely didn't. Tcl ... well, after weeks of discussion URL: http://wiki.tcl.tk/closures , the conclusion was that Tcl almost has as much as it can, given that lexical context just doesn't have much standing in Tclonia. So, yes, George Mikan and Allen Iverson both definitely played basketball, and well, but, at the same time, it's useful to distinguish the things they do with a ball. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: define loop statement?
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Isaac [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: . . . Admiration wins out over revulsion. ;-) Thanks, Alan Isaac PS Here's the motivation. Python closely resembles pseudocode. With a very little LaTeX hacking, it is often possible to write algorithms is Python that typeset as reasonable pseudocode. A simple repetitive loop is a bit of a sticking point. Wow. Innovative. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
[ANN] SPE IDE videos and more...
I'm happy to spread the word about showmedo.com, an excellent collection of python programming videos. From the website http://showmedo.com/videoListPage?listKey=TheBigPythonList: Want to learn how to use some of the best Python programming tools out there, including the supercharged IPython interpreter and the great free editor SPE? Or maybe you want to see how easy it is to create great-looking, powerful graphical user interfaces using wxPython. If so, take a gander at the videos below. They have two SPE specific videos: Python with Stani's Python Editor (SPE) Two videos to demonstrate editing and debugging of Python code using the excellent SPE toolkit. Python Development and Navigation with SPE -- SPE is a well-featured cross-platform development environment for Python. Here I show you how to write a simple Python program, save the code, run it and navigate using the Explorer, Index and UML Viewer. Complimentary material can be found in the manual and the tutorial at http://www.serpia.org. Debugging with WinPDB from Within SPE -- The WinPDB graphical debugger can be launched from within SPE to debug Python code. Here I show how to launch the debugger, step through the code and stack frame, inspect variables and exit back to SPE. I also explain the significance of the Magic Letters. The SPE videos area available at the url: http://showmedo.com/videoListPage?listKey=PythonDevelopmentWithSPE. Contribute back to your favorite open source projects by submitting your own python videos to this wonderfull project! If you need inspiration look at the requested videos: http://showmedo.com/requests Who will make the first wxGlade video? Anyone who contributes a video can request a SPE pdf manual as a reward. Stani -- http://pythonide.stani.be http://pythonide.stani.be/screenshots http://pythonide.stani.be/manual/html/manual.html -- PS Other python videos have as topic: Beginning Python -- Three videos covering the download and installation of the Python programming language on a Windows machine and a small introduction to the Python interpreter. Python Development with IPython -- Four videos leading you through the installation and basic mastery of the powerful IPython interactive Python environment Python GUI Programming with wxPython -- A series of videos for beginners showing how easy it is to quickly develop professional looking graphical user interfaces exploiting the ease and power of the Python programming language. wxPython is fast becomming one of the most popular cross-platform GUI programming solutions. This set of videos aims to show you why. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: ANN: FreeImagePy 1.2.2
On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 09:34:18 -0500 Andrew Gwozdziewycz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Knowing some details about PIL and as good as no details about FreeImage, I would like in this context to become enlightened by the answer to the question, when does it make sense to use FreeImage instead of PIL? From what I know up to now I can't see any use for FreeImage :-( . both freeimagepy and freeimage are released under the GPL, PIL is not. This is misleading! The PIL license is GPL-compatible (i.e. it could be incorporated into a GPL work), as it is a non-copyleft free license. You may be confused by Lundh's proprietary-then-free release strategy: he always releases a newer version under a proprietary license, at which point the old version is free-licensed. But the old version is completely without strings -- you could, if you wanted, try to give Mr. Lundh a run for his money by extending PIL faster than he can. Not exactly cricket, but legal. ;-) However, while PIL is very strong at image-manipulation, it is weak on file-format compatibility: As long as you stick to PNG format, you can do just about anything you want (and there is decent JPG and GIF support). But if you have compelling reasons to output data in other formats, you'll find PIL disappointing -- there are many formats it can't deal with at all, and most of the rest it can only import (in the wild, there are *dozens* of obscure image formats to be found). IMHO, this isn't too serious an issue -- it's just specialization: PIL is for *image manipulation* not *image conversion*, and it provides enough of the latter for the most common applications. Other choices include ImageMagick, but API stability, particularly of the Python bindings, is a real problem (in fact, I think there's more than one python binding for ImageMagick, but I'm not sure -- which goes some way to showing why it's a frustrating package to use). Things may have improved lately, I haven't checked in awhile. So, IMHO, there's still PLENTY of room for innovation in the application area of image-handling tools for Python. PIL is not a category-killer. At least not yet. Cheers, Terry -- Terry Hancock ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.AnansiSpaceworks.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
[ANN] ConfigObj 4.2.0
`ConfigObj 4.2.0 http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/configobj.html`_ is now available. The main improvements are *full* Unicode support,a s well as the addition of the 'convenience' `Section Methods http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/configobj.html#section-methods`_ * *as_bool* * *as_int* * *as_float* More compelling reasons to choose **ConfigObj** for reading and writing config files in Python. :-) What's New ? == The full changelog is : Removed ``BOM_UTF8`` from ``__all__``. The ``BOM`` attribute has become a boolean. (Defaults to ``False``.) It is *only* ``True`` for the ``UTF16`` and UTF8 encodings. File like objects no longer need a ``seek`` attribute. Full unicode support added. New options/attributes ``encoding``, ``default_encoding``. ConfigObj no longer keeps a reference to file like objects. Instead the ``write`` method takes a file like object as an optional argument. (Which will be used in preference of the ``filename`` attribute if that exists as well.) utf16 files decoded to unicode. If ``BOM`` is ``True``, but no encoding specified, then the utf8 BOM is written out at the start of the file. (It will normally only be ``True`` if the utf8 BOM was found when the file was read.) File paths are *not* converted to absolute paths, relative paths will remain relative as the ``filename`` attribute. Fixed bug where ``final_comment`` wasn't returned if ``write`` is returning a list of lines. Deprecated ``istrue``, replaced it with ``as_bool``. Added ``as_int`` and ``as_float``. What is ConfigObj ? === **ConfigObj** is a simple but powerful config file reader and writer: an *ini file round tripper*. It's main feature is that it is very easy to use, with a straightforward programmer's interface and a simple syntax for config files. It has lots of other features though. It is intended as a more powerful (but simpler to use) replacement for `ConfigParser http://docs.python.org/lib/module-ConfigParser.html`_. It's features include : * Nested sections (subsections), to any level * List Values * Multiple Line Values * Full Unicode support * String interpolation (substitution) * Integrated with a powerful validation system - including automatic type checking/conversion - repeated sections - and allowing default values * All comments in the file are preserved * The order of keys/sections is preserved * No external dependencies -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
Roy Smith wrote: DH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -python has true closures (although nothing like ruby's blocks) What is a true closure? Or, maybe what I'm asking is what kind of closure wouldn't be a true closure? Is there some kind of ersatz closure other language try to pass off, in violation of truth in closure laws? A true closure is what Python doesn't have ;) If you enclose variables in a certain functional context in which they are not defined they are turned into something immutable in Python. Assigning a value to the same name creates a new object instead of rebinding the old name. This readonly semantics confuses many programmers coming from other languages at least all Lispers/Schemers I've talked to. Python does not provide a rebinding operator for free variables by BDFL decision. Kay -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 00:54:22 -0500 Terry Reedy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In order to be that fast, some of the dynamism of intepreted Lisp must be given up. In particular object code is not list data. Python with type-dynamism eliminated can also be translated to decent C/C++ and then compiled. See PyRex and Weave. There is also Psyco, which I believe translates directly to machine code. I thought it was just Pyrex as in Still as clear as glass, but can really take the heat.. ;-) Now it's a small snake / dog chimera. Eeeww. You've ruined it for me. so I don't understand why Python can't also eventually be as efficient? Is there some *specific* basic reason it's tough? Or is it that this type of problem in general is tough, and Lisp has 40+ years vs Python's ~15 years? Otherwise, I think this has been well-answered -- if you give up the same features, you can get the same speed. But who cares? Those things only matter in a very limited domain, and real programs can use Python for logic and Python extension modules for things that truly need optimization. If you use Pyrex, you can even still pretend you're programming in Python when you write those extensions. I'm sure that's why some 3D libraries have opted to write the fast code in Pyrex instead of C (even though either is possible). -- Terry Hancock ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.AnansiSpaceworks.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How many web framework for python ?
Sybren Stuvel wrote: Why forget it? I've written my own web framework (http://www.unrealtower.org/) and it works great! It was a good Some reasons: - Waste. When you write your own framework, you are helping yourself. If you use an existing framework and possibly contribute patches to it, you help other people too. - Other people have already solved your problems, also problems that you can't think of yet. - Not reusing code is just plain evil. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
DH a écrit : (snip) It is by design. Python is dynamically typed. It is essentially an interpreted scripting language like javascript or ruby or perl, It's not a scripting language, and it's not interpreted. although python fans will be quick to tell you python is compiled to byte code. CQFD. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Req. for module style/organization
I've begun a Python module to provide a complete interface to the Meade LX200 command set, and have searched for a style/development guide for Python Lib/site-packages type modules, but only saw guides for C-modules. I realize that I need to make some changes to follow http://www.python.org/doc/essays/styleguide.html better. Does anyone have an appropriate URL for me to follow for this task? Is one of the C-module guides appropriate? I had quickly parsed the official PDF into prototype methods and started off, got some good advice from Python-list and MAPUG, and broke it into Classes: http://rjs.org/Python/LX200.zip Not having written a generic module before, I'd like input on organization and style. As I usually learn from examples, I browsed 2.4 Lib/site-packages/ and saw a wide variety of structure: -some have empty __init__.py files, others are loaded -some have module vars and methods, others not -some have 0, 1, or many classes per .py file I have: LX200/ __init__.py LXSerial.py Telescope.py Focuser.py LXUtils.py ... etc Each file has one class defined. In the above, LXSerial, Telescope and Focuser are actual separate objects (there are others). None can be used without the serial port, but some might be used without a scope present. They all ultimately rely on a set of atomic serial commands in somewhat overlapping categories, not all of which are available on every model device (many other makers follow the LX set for its inertia). There is a second com port available for optional separate control, but rarely used by anyone. I am trying also to follow the ASCOM standard for names and high-level function behavior, as just a subset of the total of methods. (ASCOM is the biggest standard in the amateur astro industry, but is entirely MS COM, not even CORBA.) That part isn't very hard. Currently, a user creates a port object, tests ports if desired, then opens one (presumably with an LX on the other end, or it Excepts). A Telescope object is created before or after, and the port object is set as an attribute of the scope. Alternatively, I could require that the port is passed explicitly to the Telescope methods, and likewise the accessory's methods... There is the issue of inheritance and making Classes aware of parents' objects and other Classes' stuff (if needed). Where in this structure should constants be defined? __init__, module*.py, or the module's Class(s)? Should I rename LXSerial to _serial? BAUD rate is 9600, so speed here is a non-issue. The seeming lack of uniformity in the Libs/* is causing my uncertainty: All advice is appreciated, Ray -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi, I've been thinking about Python vs. Lisp. I've been learning Python the past few months and like it very much. A few years ago I had an AI class where we had to use Lisp, and I absolutely hated it, having learned C++ a few years prior. They didn't teach Lisp at all and instead expected us to learn on our own. I wasn't aware I had to uproot my thought process to get it and wound up feeling like a moron. In learning Python I've read more about Lisp than when I was actually trying to learn it, and it seems that the two languages have lots of similarities: http://www.norvig.com/python-lisp.html I'm wondering if someone can explain to me please what it is about Python that is so different from Lisp that it can't be compiled into something as fast as compiled Lisp? Nothing. Given a sufficiently smart implementation any language can be as fast as any other -- it might just be a billion times harder to write that implementation for language A than for language B. From this above website and others, I've learned that compiled Lisp can be nearly as fast as C/C++, so I don't understand why Python can't also eventually be as efficient? Is there some *specific* basic reason it's tough? Or is it that this type of problem in general is tough, and Lisp has 40+ years vs Python's ~15 years? I think if you're looking for one single reason, it is presumably that (IIRC) python was designed on the erronous assumption that dynamically typed languages have to be slow (and are unsuitable for real applications anyway) wheras common lisp wasn't. Furthermore the people involved in common lisp were much more knowledgeable and experienced in things like compiler design and had a long history of similar languages and various implementations to build upon. As common lisp and scheme demonstrate you can have high level of dynamism (and in a number of things both are more dynamic than python) and still get very good performance (in some cases close to or better than C). But both these languages have been designed with compiler writers and the generation of fast code in mind, so they made design decisions to ease writing fast lisp compilers and programs. For example: - python classes (and to some extent modules) are essentially dictionaries that you can modify and customize more or less at will at run-time and that behave interchangeably in many respects. I'm sure that presents several optimization headaches. By contrast if the common lisp compiler sees the symbol CL:LIST (usually written just LIST, because the CL package is imported by default) it can safely assume that it refers to the builtin LIST function, because you're not allowed to rebind the function value of functions in the CL package. Python can assume no such thing if it comes across ``list`` -- for all it knows it might as well be the number 42. Also the package and class system are completely separate and although common lisp's OO system is rather more powerful than python's it has been designed to be implementable efficiently. - in python almost everything has to happen at run-time, whereas in common lisp you can do things at compile time, load time or run-time e.g: - common lisp has a mechanism for making compiler declarations (so you can tell the compiler to inline a function, or the type of a variable, or to optimize something for speed and not for space etc.) - common lisp has macros (proper ones, not C style) which allow you to build efficient abstractions - common lisp has compiler macros. This sort of means that you can write your own compiler optimizations for your functions (i.e. if you know that your expensive FOO function is indempotent you could arrange for all calls of the form (FOO (FOO A)) to be replaced with simply A, in a similar way as an optimizing compiler might replace (a+b+c+d)*0 with 0). What's far more interesting to me, however, is that I think there a good reasons to suspect python's slowness is more of a feature than a flaw: I'd not be suprised if on the whole it greatly increases programmer productivity and results in clearer and more uniform code. If you know the language to be dog slow any way, you're much less likely to waste your time (and that of future maintainers) on the pointless microoptimizations that geeks so love. Also, since only builtins have reasonable performance there's added motiviation to become very familiar with the available builtins (and standard libarary) and far less temptation to roll one's own version of say dict.setdefault (even if it it sucks). The fact that non-standard library code is inherently somewhat inferior (because it will either be written in python and slow or written in C and a pain to install) adds further incentive to attempt community wide standardization. I think it's not unreasonable to speculate that all this decreases production, maintenance and
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
Bruno Desthuilliers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DH a écrit : (snip) It is by design. Python is dynamically typed. It is essentially an interpreted scripting language like javascript or ruby or perl, It's not a scripting language, and it's not interpreted. Of course it is. What do you think happens to the bytecode? And if python isn't a scripting language, then what on earth is? You might want to argue about whether scriping language is a meaningful and useful concept, but it's really hard to see how you could talk about scripting languages without including python. 'as -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
Cool, thank you. That's the answer I was looking for :) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
Alexander Schmolck wrote: What's far more interesting to me, however, is that I think there a good reasons to suspect python's slowness is more of a feature than a flaw: I'd not be suprised if on the whole it greatly increases programmer productivity and results in clearer and more uniform code. So ironically, some share of python's success might actually be due to ignorance on Guido's part it didn't, for even a millisecond, strike you that maybe, just maybe, the make it as dynamic as we possibly can choice was made on purpose ? /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: general coding issues - coding style...
calmar a écrit : Hi all, since I'm just a 'handicraft'/beginner or so, could anybody provide me with some (rough) hints, about how to enhance the code here: http://calmar.ws/tmp/cal.html 1/ learn OO and get rid of globals. 2/ use dict or list based dispatch instead of long if/elif/elif... clauses 3/ stdout is meant for *normal* program outputs. Errors and verbosity go to stderr 4/ triple quoted strings are fine for multiline text 5/ os.path is fine for portable filepath operations 6/ things that dont change during program execution (ie : constants) should not be defined inside a function Cheers and thanks a lot calmar -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
Great, thanks for a very complete answer. michael -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
Alexander Schmolck wrote: You might want to argue about whether scriping language is a meaningful and useful concept, but it's really hard to see how you could talk about scripting languages without including python. define scripting language. the only even remotely formal definition I've ever seen is language with designed to script an existing application, with limited support for handling its own state. Early Tcl and JavaScript are scripting languages, Python is not. /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
Alexander Schmolck a écrit : Bruno Desthuilliers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DH a écrit : (snip) It is by design. Python is dynamically typed. It is essentially an interpreted scripting language like javascript or ruby or perl, It's not a scripting language, and it's not interpreted. Of course it is. What do you think happens to the bytecode? Ok, then what do you think happens to 'machine' code ? interpreted usually means no compilation, all parsing etc redone at each execution, which is not the case with a bytecode/vm based implementation. And if python isn't a scripting language, then what on earth is? bash is a scripting language for *n*x systems. javascript is a scripting language for web browsers. VBScript is a scripting language for MS applications. You might want to argue about whether scriping language is a meaningful and useful concept, A scripting languagee is a language whose main purpose is to be embbeded in an application to provide the user a way of programmaticaly automate some tedious tasks. Now you could of course argue about what is an application... but it's really hard to see how you could talk about scripting languages without including python. Ho, really ? How many applications using Python as scripting language ? And how many applications written in Python ? Python *can* be used as a scripting language (and is not too bad at it), but it *is* not a scripting language. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
Bruno Desthuilliers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's not a scripting language, and it's not interpreted. http://www.python.org/doc/faq/general.html#what-is-python Python is an interpreted, interactive, object-oriented programming language. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Countdown Timer
Could someone tell me what modules I should look at in the Python Manual to create a countdown timer that counts the years, days, hours, minutes, and seconds to a given day? Thanks in advance! I'm fairly new to the language, so please put it in newbie terms. I only know the basics. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Another stupid newbie question
Do yourself a HUGE favour and read this before posting any more questions to comp.lang.python. Trust me, you really will thank us. http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html I find that webpage highly insulting, and so should you. It is treating you like a small child, who needs to be told everything. If you need more information, just ask. I myself have been on hardware lists/fourms for quite a while now. I never answer questions that go into too much detail, I find it off-putting and insulting - I feel it treats me like some sort of robot, that requires all eventualities to be programed into it to start answering the questions. I just ask politly for more info, if I need it. But questions from people saying 'Please help' etc. is great. They know they are in the wrong, and intend to be humorus. They dont intend to annoy/offend anybody. And really, I dont need to be told how to be polite, thank you. As regards to grammer/spelling, what if sombody is unsure of how to spell something? And did you ever hear of being in a rush? -- /usr/bin/byte -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
Great, thank you and everyone for this nice discussion. Michael -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
Hallöchen! Bruno Desthuilliers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Alexander Schmolck a écrit : Bruno Desthuilliers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [...] It's not a scripting language, and it's not interpreted. Of course it is. What do you think happens to the bytecode? Ok, then what do you think happens to 'machine' code ? interpreted usually means no compilation, all parsing etc redone at each execution, which is not the case with a bytecode/vm based implementation. That sounds like an implementation feature rather than a language feature. Besides, it's not a very sensible distinction in my opinion. Much better is to think about the structure of the interpreting machine. I'm not a CS person (only a physicist) but if you *need* a bytecode interpreter on top of the CPU interpretation, it's an interpreted language to me. I've had such a discussion about TeX already, and my personal conclusion was that you can defend almost any opinion in that area. However, one should ensure that the definitions make a pragmatic and useful distinction. Tschö, Torsten. -- Torsten Bronger, aquisgrana, europa vetusICQ 264-296-646 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Countdown Timer
take a look at the time module. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: editor for Python on Linux
Mladen Adamovic: I wonder which editor or IDE you can recommend me for writing Python programs. vi -- René Pijlman -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: editor for Python on Linux
# I wonder which editor or IDE you can recommend me for writing Python # programs. I tried with jEdit but it isn't perfect. It depends on what you need; what don't you like about JEdit? What do you think a good editor or IDE should provide? -- Jonathan Daugherty http://www.parsed.org -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: editor for Python on Linux
Mladen Adamovic wrote: Hi! I wonder which editor or IDE you can recommend me for writing Python programs. I tried with jEdit but it isn't perfect. Check out http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonEditors. I personally use Emacs -- Sriram -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python multithreading on cluster system? Embedding python in PVM?
abhinav wrote: Hi guys.I have read that one cannot perform true multithreading in python due to global interpreter lock mechanism.Suppose i have to implement a crawler on a say cluster system like clusterknoppix so that i can use parallel virtual machine (PVM)for programming in multiprocessor environment or say open MPI.Can i integrate python with PVM or MPI.Can i embed python into C for programming in multiprocessor environment.Is there any way of embedding python in PVM or MPI so that i can implement a true cluster based search engine? Any help would be very kind.Thanks. http://pypvm.sourceforge.net --Armin -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: editor for Python on Linux
Mladen Adamovic wrote: Hi! I wonder which editor or IDE you can recommend me for writing Python programs. I tried with jEdit but it isn't perfect. Nothing is perfect ... but try SciTE and Eric http://www.die-offenbachs.de/detlev/eric3.html --Armin http://www.steinhoff-automation.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: editor for Python on Linux
Le Sun, 19 Feb 2006 21:33:59 +0100, Rene Pijlman a écrit : Mladen Adamovic: I wonder which editor or IDE you can recommend me for writing Python programs. vi I beg to disagree :-) Use ed Ed is the standard text editor. http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: editor for Python on Linux
SPE: http://pythonide.stani.be I use it on Ubuntu. For a quick start, view: http://showmedo.com/videoListPage?listKey=PythonDevelopmentWithSPE Stani -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: number ranges (was Re: Matlab page on scipy wiki)
Bryan Cole wrote: First, I think the range() function in python is ugly to begin with. Why can't python just support range notation directly like 'for a in 0:10'. Or with 0..10 or 0...10 syntax. That seems to make a lot more sense to me than having to call a named function. Anyway, that's a python pet peeve, and python's probably not going to change something so fundamental... There was a python PEP on this. It got rejected as having too many 'issues'. Pity, in my view. see http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0204.html BC This decision appears to have been made nearly six years ago. It would be a good idea to revisit the decision, particularly since the reasons for rejection are not clearly spelled out. The conditional expression (PEP 308) was rejected but is currently being implemented in Python version 2.5. It will have the syntax A if C else B. I have felt, as Gary Ruben says above, that the range structure is ugly. Two alternatives have been suggested: a) a:b:c b) a..b..c Do either of these create parsing problems? for i in a:b: Should this be treated as an error, with a missing c (the increment) print i for i in 2..5: print i We don't know whether the 2 is an integer until the second period is scanned. It would be good if the range and slice could be merged in some way, although the extended slice is rather complicated - I don't understand it. The semantics for an extended slicing are as follows. The primary must evaluate to a mapping object, and it is indexed with a key that is constructed from the slice list, as follows. If the slice list contains at least one comma, the key is a tuple containing the conversion of the slice items; otherwise, the conversion of the lone slice item is the key. The conversion of a slice item that is an expression is that expression. The conversion of an ellipsis slice item is the built-in |Ellipsis| object. The conversion of a proper slice is a slice object (see section section 4.2 The standard type hierarchy http://www.network-theory.co.uk/docs/pylang/ref_30.html) whose |start|, |stop| and |step| attributes are the values of the expressions given as lower bound, upper bound and stride, respectively, substituting |None| for missing expressions. [source: http://www.network-theory.co.uk/docs/pylang/ref_60.html] The seems to be a bit of a problem with slicing that needs sorting out. The syntax for a slice list appears to allow multiple slices in a list: extended_slicing::= primary primaries.html#tok-primary [ slice_list slicings.html#tok-slice_list ] slice_list ::= slice_item slicings.html#tok-slice_item (, slice_item slicings.html#tok-slice_item)* [,] but the current interpreter reports an error: a= range(20) a[slice(3, 9, 2)] [3, 5, 7] a[slice(3, 9, 2), slice(5, 10)] Traceback (most recent call last): File interactive input, line 1, in ? TypeError: list indices must be integers I have taken the liberty of cross posting this to c.l.p. Colin W. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: editor for Python on Linux
F. Petitjean: Rene Pijlman: vi I beg to disagree :-) Use ed Ed is the standard text editor. http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html That was 1991. This is 2006. -- René Pijlman -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
Torsten Bronger wrote: Hallöchen! Bruno Desthuilliers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ok, then what do you think happens to 'machine' code ? interpreted usually means no compilation, all parsing etc redone at each execution, which is not the case with a bytecode/vm based implementation. Such criteria sound more like those which would distinguish interactive languages from others. That sounds like an implementation feature rather than a language feature. Besides, it's not a very sensible distinction in my opinion. Much better is to think about the structure of the interpreting machine. And it's even better to think about the nature of the machine... I'm not a CS person (only a physicist) but if you *need* a bytecode interpreter on top of the CPU interpretation, it's an interpreted language to me. Yet one could potentially have that bytecode interpreter in hardware. What typically prevents this is the potential difficulty of realising complicated software designs in reasonably priced hardware, thus introducing the nature of the machine: how complicated the instructions are, what additional support would be required for implementing those instructions, and so on. Low-level or systems programming languages are compilable to instructions which are convenient to implement in hardware and require little additional support: concepts such as stacks (for various purposes) are supported by machine instructions and registers, for example, whereas more advanced memory management is left to software running on top of the virtual machine (although I imagine that various Lisp machines did some interesting things in this domain). I've had such a discussion about TeX already, and my personal conclusion was that you can defend almost any opinion in that area. However, one should ensure that the definitions make a pragmatic and useful distinction. Agreed. The CPython virtual machine consists of complicated instructions: that is, some of those instructions may involve non-trivial amounts of work and may be integrated with other subsystems that can realistically only be implemented in software. Even virtual machines like that of the Java platform have moderately high-level instructions, resulting in various Java optimised hardware implementations not attempting to provide a complete coverage of all the available instructions (as far as I am aware). I'm not sure why people get all defensive about Python's interpreted/scripting designation or about the details of the CPython implementation, especially considering that the virtual machine technology in use has been around for a decade and a half, and that various projects have been experimenting with alternatives. Paul -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: editor for Python on Linux
Sriram Krishnan: Check out http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonEditors. This page can't be taken seriously. vi is not listed. -- René Pijlman -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: editor for Python on Linux
Rene Pijlman wrote: Mladen Adamovic: I wonder which editor or IDE you can recommend me for writing Python programs. vi Scite is a good editor. It is available for both Windows and Linux. Boa-Constructor is an IDE rather than an editor. Although it focuses on wxPython, it has a good editor. Colin W -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: number ranges (was Re: Matlab page on scipy wiki)
Colin J. Williams wrote: Bryan Cole wrote: First, I think the range() function in python is ugly to begin with. Why can't python just support range notation directly like 'for a in 0:10'. Or with 0..10 or 0...10 syntax. That seems to make a lot more sense to me than having to call a named function. Anyway, that's a python pet peeve, and python's probably not going to change something so fundamental... There was a python PEP on this. It got rejected as having too many 'issues'. Pity, in my view. see http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0204.html BC This decision appears to have been made nearly six years ago. It would be a good idea to revisit the decision, particularly since the reasons for rejection are not clearly spelled out. The conditional expression (PEP 308) was rejected but is currently being implemented in Python version 2.5. It will have the syntax A if C else B. I have felt, as Gary Ruben says above, that the range structure is ugly. Two alternatives have been suggested: a) a:b:c b) a..b..c Do either of these create parsing problems? for i in a:b: Should this be treated as an error, with a missing c (the increment) print i for i in 2..5: print i We don't know whether the 2 is an integer until the second period is scanned. It would be good if the range and slice could be merged in some way, although the extended slice is rather complicated - I don't understand it. The semantics for an extended slicing are as follows. The primary must evaluate to a mapping object, and it is indexed with a key that is constructed from the slice list, as follows. If the slice list contains at least one comma, the key is a tuple containing the conversion of the slice items; otherwise, the conversion of the lone slice item is the key. The conversion of a slice item that is an expression is that expression. The conversion of an ellipsis slice item is the built-in |Ellipsis| object. The conversion of a proper slice is a slice object (see section section 4.2 The standard type hierarchy http://www.network-theory.co.uk/docs/pylang/ref_30.html) whose |start|, |stop| and |step| attributes are the values of the expressions given as lower bound, upper bound and stride, respectively, substituting |None| for missing expressions. [source: http://www.network-theory.co.uk/docs/pylang/ref_60.html] The seems to be a bit of a problem with slicing that needs sorting out. The syntax for a slice list appears to allow multiple slices in a list: extended_slicing ::= primary primaries.html#tok-primary [ slice_list slicings.html#tok-slice_list ] slice_list ::= slice_item slicings.html#tok-slice_item (, slice_item slicings.html#tok-slice_item)* [,] but the current interpreter reports an error: a= range(20) a[slice(3, 9, 2)] [3, 5, 7] a[slice(3, 9, 2), slice(5, 10)] Traceback (most recent call last): File interactive input, line 1, in ? TypeError: list indices must be integers I have taken the liberty of cross posting this to c.l.p. Colin W. This was originally posted to the numpy discussion list. Colin W. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How many web framework for python ?
Ville Vainio enlightened us with: When you write your own framework, you are helping yourself. True. And if that doesn't have a negative effect on others (which I think it doesn't) there is nothing wrong with that. If you use an existing framework and possibly contribute patches to it, you help other people too. Also true, but there is more to it. If I can create my own framework, get more experienced, and be able to spare time in the long run because I can quickly implement features I want, it makes me a more efficient and experienced person. That leaves me more useful when helping people, and gives me more time to help them too. - Other people have already solved your problems I have no problems. My web framework is working just as I want it to. also problems that you can't think of yet. What problems didn't I think of yet? - Not reusing code is just plain evil. I'm using mod_python, Cheetah, SQLObject and PostgreSQL. I publish all my own code under an Open Source license so other people can learn from and contribute to it. How am I not reusing code? Sybren -- The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself? Frank Zappa -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: editor for Python on Linux
Rene Pijlman wrote: Sriram Krishnan: Check out http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonEditors. This page can't be taken seriously. vi is not listed. I hope your wink key is broken; I wouldn't wish old-school vi on my worst enemy. Fortunately that page lists the wonderful Vim instead, so seriousness has been maintained. To the OP: a serious editor is a basic necessity of coding, so pick Emacs, Vim, or something equivalent. Just make sure it's customizable and you enjoy customizing it because you'll want to. -- Benji York -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 19:26:20 +, Alexander Schmolck wrote: Bruno Desthuilliers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DH a écrit : (snip) It is by design. Python is dynamically typed. It is essentially an interpreted scripting language like javascript or ruby or perl, It's not a scripting language, and it's not interpreted. Of course it is. What do you think happens to the bytecode? By that logic, all languages are interpreted. What do you think happens to the machinecode? -- Steven. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: editor for Python on Linux
Mladen Adamovic enlightened us with: I wonder which editor or IDE you can recommend me for writing Python programs. I tried with jEdit but it isn't perfect. I use gvim (if I have X) and vim (if I don't). The only negative thing about it, is its learning curve ;-) Sybren -- The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself? Frank Zappa -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
Fredrik Lundh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Alexander Schmolck wrote: What's far more interesting to me, however, is that I think there a good reasons to suspect python's slowness is more of a feature than a flaw: I'd not be suprised if on the whole it greatly increases programmer productivity and results in clearer and more uniform code. So ironically, some share of python's success might actually be due to ignorance on Guido's part it didn't, for even a millisecond, strike you that maybe, just maybe, the make it as dynamic as we possibly can choice was made on purpose ? Python is far less dynamic than smalltalk, and presumably also self (last time I checked there was no implementation for x86, so I have no practical experience with self). Even common lisp could reasonably be called more dynamic than python. And all these language communities did in fact still manage to come up with efficient implementations. Thus the make it as dynamic as it possibly can choice is hardly the cause for python's slowness, so what's your point? My point was that Guido probably (and fortunately!) was unaware of the extent to which you can have both dynamism and speed and the extent to which very dynamic languages are suitable for writing robust software. I'm pretty sure I remember reading stuff by Guido himself in which he indicated that he originally thought that a language with a similar level of dynamism as python had to be slow anyway and I'm also pretty sure that I read some other stuff by him which indicates that he thought a language like python would be only suitable for relatively small scale development. If you don't doubt he wrote that I'm not sure what we're disagreeing about (because clearly both statements are wrong), if you do maybe I or someone else can find the right reference, or maybe I really misremembered. Anyayw, I'm pretty sure that Guido wouldn't have bothered to add things like compiler macros to python, whatever his level of his technical expertise concerning efficient implementations of highly dynamic languages might have been. However I don't find it at all implausible to assume that had Guido known all the stuff that say, David Ungar and Guy Steele were aware of at the same time, python would have come out not necessarily less dynamic but considerably faster -- to its own detriment. 'as -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Making mouse wheel work with pmw ScrolledCanvas widget
This looks like it has nothing to do with Pmw (Mega widgets) but is really a basic Tkinter problem. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Format file size for printing
is there a built-in way of printing the size of a file nicely? So if the file size is 103803 bytes it prints out like: 103.8K or 0.1MB something liek that? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: editor for Python on Linux
Mladen Adamovic wrote: Hi! I wonder which editor or IDE you can recommend me for writing Python programs. I tried with jEdit but it isn't perfect. My personal favorite is Kate (comes with KDE). - Duck -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 13:02:16 -0800, Paul Boddie wrote: Torsten Bronger wrote: Hallöchen! Bruno Desthuilliers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ok, then what do you think happens to 'machine' code ? interpreted usually means no compilation, all parsing etc redone at each execution, which is not the case with a bytecode/vm based implementation. Such criteria sound more like those which would distinguish interactive languages from others. How can that be? Python is interactive, and yet it has a bytecode/vm implementation. And I'm just waiting for somebody to mention Forth, which completely breaks down the barriers between compilation and interpretation. In a world of virtual machines, bytecode compilers, CPUs which emulate other CPUs using embedded software, and Forth, I would have thought that it was as obvious as the Sun in the sky that compiled versus interpreted is a false dichotomy. That sounds like an implementation feature rather than a language feature. Besides, it's not a very sensible distinction in my opinion. Much better is to think about the structure of the interpreting machine. And it's even better to think about the nature of the machine... Is it? Why? Do you particularly know what happens when your machine code hits the CPU? I'm not a CS person (only a physicist) but if you *need* a bytecode interpreter on top of the CPU interpretation, it's an interpreted language to me. Yet one could potentially have that bytecode interpreter in hardware. Not potentially, in actuality. I know of only one example, and it wasn't commercially success, but in 1993 IBM developed a version of the PowerPC RISC chip that had support for the Intel x86 instruction set. What has been done once can be done again. [snip] I'm not sure why people get all defensive about Python's interpreted/scripting designation or about the details of the CPython implementation, especially considering that the virtual machine technology in use has been around for a decade and a half, and that various projects have been experimenting with alternatives. I can't speak for others, but for me it is because generally the people who are the quickest to insist that Python is interpreted appear to mean it as a put-down. I never hear Python has the rapid development and flexibility that only an interpreted language can give, it is always Of course Python is slow, it is interpreted, what do you expect?. Even if they themselves are perfectly aware of the subtle shades of modern language design, and that interpretation does not mean that every line of code is parsed repeatedly as it is run, it seems to me that very often they don't mind one bit if others, less informed than them, come away with that impression. Let's be frank: interpreted language has negative connotations which may have been valid in the 1960s and perhaps even the 1970s, but are no longer automatically valid. Nevertheless, those connotations stick around, generally amongst the less knowledgeable. That hurts Python's commercial success, and Python's commercial success is vital for anyone who wishes to get paid to program in Python. -- Steven. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Countdown Timer
Thank you! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
Steven D'Aprano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: By that logic, all languages are interpreted. What do you think happens to the machinecode? Interpreted to transistors state by an internal mapping in the CPU opcode == input configuration. -- Valentino Volonghi aka Dialtone Now Running MacOSX 10.4 Blog: http://vvolonghi.blogspot.com New Pet: http://www.stiq.it -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
Fredrik Lundh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Alexander Schmolck wrote: You might want to argue about whether scriping language is a meaningful and useful concept, but it's really hard to see how you could talk about scripting languages without including python. define scripting language. Pretty much any definition that isn't practically useless would do. I'd personally opt for something like: A language that doesn't make all common simple tasks difficult and painful. If that sounds too wishy-washy, note that I specifically question whether scripting language is a useful and meaningful concept to start with -- I just find it silly to take issue with calling python a scripting language but not with the term scripting language itself (especially given that even the python tutorial talks about python scripts and that almost anyone who uses the term would include python). the only even remotely formal definition I've ever seen is language with designed to script an existing application, with limited support for handling its own state. Early Tcl and JavaScript are scripting languages, Python is not. Right. Which shows that by this definition scripting language is not a meaningful and useful concept. No one will understand you correctly when you refer to scripting language and mean only something like the above -- and unless you spend a lot of your time talking about early tcl and early javascript I doubt you'd need a word for it, either. 'as -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
Of course it is. What do you think happens to the bytecode? Ok, then what do you think happens to 'machine' code ? I believe that on modern CISC processors the human level 'machine code' is interpreted by subroutines written in the actual machine code usually called 'microcode'. tjr -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Which is faster? (if not b in m) or (if m.count(b) 0)
Farel wrote: Tim, Are you saying that: not (b in m) is faster than: b not in m On the contrary. `not (b in m)` requires negating the result of `b in m` (via an additional bytecode operation). `b not in m` doesn't. However, the difference in performance is minimal, as testing using the timeit module will show you. The important difference is the improvement in clarity. There is no possibility for misinterpretation as to the meaning of `b not in m`, whereas with the original `not b in m` I had to actually go check the precedence rules to be sure what would happen. Adding the parentheses makes it clear, but doesn't read as well as using the `not in` operator. As others have said, if you really care about the performance of something, the timeit module is your friend. Discussions about *why* you get certain performance results are then useful. Tim Delaney -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 13:02:16 -0800, Paul Boddie wrote: Bruno Desthuilliers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ok, then what do you think happens to 'machine' code ? interpreted usually means no compilation, all parsing etc redone at each execution, which is not the case with a bytecode/vm based implementation. Such criteria sound more like those which would distinguish interactive languages from others. How can that be? Python is interactive, and yet it has a bytecode/vm implementation. The criteria were no compilation, all parsing etc redone at each execution: things which would possibly describe features of a language where much use is made of an interactive mode, and where there wouldn't be many advantages in generating instructions in another form for later execution. Not that this applies to Python, since it does compile source code to bytecode instructions as we all know, and the only re-parsing occurs in well-defined circumstances, but there have been other dare I say scripting? languages whose execution models have apparently involved ASTs instead of virtual machine instruction sets. [...] And it's even better to think about the nature of the machine... Is it? Why? Do you particularly know what happens when your machine code hits the CPU? In general, yes: it's interpreted by a virtual machine implementation in hardware. But this is where the nature of the machine is important, as I originally wrote, since you don't want highly complicated instructions implemented in hardware for a variety of well-understood reasons. [...] Let's be frank: interpreted language has negative connotations which may have been valid in the 1960s and perhaps even the 1970s, but are no longer automatically valid. Nevertheless, those connotations stick around, generally amongst the less knowledgeable. That hurts Python's commercial success, and Python's commercial success is vital for anyone who wishes to get paid to program in Python. I think we're mostly in agreement here. My point was, as usual, tangential: there is a certain class of instructions conveniently or economically implementable in hardware; CPython's runtime also has instructions more complicated than those. Consequently, when people used to speculate about Python CPUs and other magical devices that would make Python run much faster (see [1] for more recent material which doesn't specifically do so, although I believe the speaker made references to such devices; see [2] for an old mailing list thread), one has to accept that there are certain constraints that have a severe effect on whether such devices are viable or not. If some people want to classify runtime environments on this basis then I don't have a problem with that, provided that they are honest about it and put things like the Java VM in the same category as CPython. Paul [1] http://www.python-in-business.org/ep2005/talk.chtml?talk=2116track=692 [2] http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/1999-June/thread.html#4543 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
Bruno Desthuilliers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: DH a écrit : (snip) It is by design. Python is dynamically typed. It is essentially an interpreted scripting language like javascript or ruby or perl, It's not a scripting language, and it's not interpreted. OK, but then we should change http://python.org/doc/Summary.html, which starts with Python is an interpreted, interactive, object-oriented programming language. -- if it's not interpreted, then why is this crucial page on Python's main site lying outright? Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs. Lisp -- please explain
Bruno Desthuilliers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... Ho, really ? How many applications using Python as scripting language ? http://wiki.python.org/moin/AppsWithPythonScripting lists many, but it's obviously woefully incomplete -- e.g., it's missing Civilization IV, a very popular, major new game whose use of Python has been in the news a lot. Besides, with ActiveScripting on Windows and Apple Events on the Mac, all normal applications on both widespread platforms are using Python as scripting language, at least potentially -- that makes it essentially a desperate task to try to count them all...:-( Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: number ranges (was Re: Matlab page on scipy wiki)
Colin J. Williams wrote: It would be good if the range and slice could be merged in some way, although the extended slice is rather complicated - I don't understand it. The semantics for an extended slicing are as follows. The primary must evaluate to a mapping object, and it is indexed with a key that is constructed from the slice list, as follows. If the slice list contains at least one comma, the key is a tuple containing the conversion of the slice items; otherwise, the conversion of the lone slice item is the key. The conversion of a slice item that is an expression is that expression. The conversion of an ellipsis slice item is the built-in |Ellipsis| object. The conversion of a proper slice is a slice object (see section section 4.2 The standard type hierarchy http://www.network-theory.co.uk/docs/pylang/ref_30.html) whose |start|, |stop| and |step| attributes are the values of the expressions given as lower bound, upper bound and stride, respectively, substituting |None| for missing expressions. [source: http://www.network-theory.co.uk/docs/pylang/ref_60.html] The seems to be a bit of a problem with slicing that needs sorting out. The syntax for a slice list appears to allow multiple slices in a list: extended_slicing ::= primary primaries.html#tok-primary [ slice_list slicings.html#tok-slice_list ] slice_list ::= slice_item slicings.html#tok-slice_item (, slice_item slicings.html#tok-slice_item)* [,] but the current interpreter reports an error: a= range(20) a[slice(3, 9, 2)] [3, 5, 7] a[slice(3, 9, 2), slice(5, 10)] Traceback (most recent call last): File interactive input, line 1, in ? TypeError: list indices must be integers Extended slicing has nothing to do with lists. All that gobbeldy gook is trying to tell you is what the interpreter does with O[1:2:3, 4:5:6] where O is some arbitrary object. What it does is: O[1:2:3, 4:5:6] == O[slice(1,2,3), slice(4,5,6)] == O.__getitem__((slice(1,2,3), slice(4,5,6))) In the case of python lists, __getitem__ doesn't support multiple slice arguments. However, you are free to define your own types which do support multiple slices. This type of slicing was added to support Numeric originally and as far as I know is still only really used in Numeric and its successors Numarray and Numpy. Since this was originally posted to the numpy list I assume you are familiar with multidimensional indexing of arrays -- that is extended slicing in action. If you really want to learn about it, and for most people it's unnecessary although perhaps entertaining, play with the following class: class ExtendedSlicingDemo(object): def __getitem__(self, key): return key esd = ExtendedSlicingDemo() print esd[1:2:3] print esd[1:2:3, 3:4:5] print esd[1:2:3, ..., 3:4:5] # = slice(1, 2, 3) (slice(1, 2, 3), slice(3, 4, 5)) (slice(1, 2, 3), Ellipsis, slice(3, 4, 5)) -tim -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
MySQLDB - parameterised SQL - TypeError: not all arguments converted during string formatting
Hi - I have written some python to insert a row into a table using MySQLDB. I have never before written SQL/Python using embedded parameters in the SQL and I'm having some difficulties. Could someone point me in the right direction please ? The python looks like this : import MySQLdb import MySQLdb.cursors conn = MySQLdb.Connect(host='localhost', user='abc,passwd='def', db='ghi',compress=1) cursor = conn.cursor(cursorclass=MySQLdb.cursors.DictCursor) sqlQuery = INSERT INTO EVA_COMPANY (COM_ADDRESS,COM_AUTOID,COM_COMPANY_ADDRESS,COM_STRUCT_OWNER_CODE) VALUES (?,?,?,?) print sqlQuery sql = cursor.execute(sqlQuery,(test,NULL,Tester1017,5)) cursor.close() conn.commit() ... and the table looks like this ... CREATE TABLE `eva_company` ( `COM_AUTOID` int(9) unsigned NOT NULL auto_increment, `COM_COMPANY_NAME` varchar(128) NOT NULL, `COM_TRADING_NAME` varchar(128) default NULL, `COM_ADDRESS` varchar(256) NOT NULL, `COM_POSTAL_ADDRESS` varchar(256) default NULL, `COM_CONTACT_NAME` varchar(56) default NULL, `COM_CONTACT_POSITION` varchar(56) default NULL, `COM_CONTACT_TELEPHONE` varchar(16) default NULL, `COM_CONTACT_FAX` varchar(16) default NULL, `COM_CONTACT_EMAIL` varchar(256) default NULL, `COM_STRUCT_OWNER_CODE` int(9) unsigned default NULL, `COM_INDUSTRY_CODE` varchar(16) default NULL, `COM_INDUSTRY_DESC` varchar(56) default NULL, `COM_NUMBER_OF_SITES` int(9) default NULL, `COM_NATURE_OF_RELATIONSHIP` varchar(128) default NULL, PRIMARY KEY (`COM_AUTOID`), KEY `IDX_COM1` (`COM_STRUCT_OWNER_CODE`), KEY `IDX_COM0` (`COM_COMPANY_NAME`), CONSTRAINT `FK_COS_COM0` FOREIGN KEY (`COM_STRUCT_OWNER_CODE`) REFERENCES `eva_code_comp_struct_ownership` (`COS_AUTOID`) ) ENGINE=InnoDB DEFAULT CHARSET=utf8 ROW_FORMAT=DYNAMIC; ... but when I try to execute the python I get an error ... Traceback (most recent call last): File sheadbtest1.py, line 8, in ? sql = cursor.execute(sqlQuery,(test,NULL,Tester1017,5)) File C:\bin\installed\Python2.4.1\Lib\site-packages\MySQLdb\cursors.py, line 132, in execute self.errorhandler(self, TypeError, m) File C:\bin\installed\Python2.4.1\Lib\site-packages\MySQLdb\connections.py, line 33, in defaulterrorhandler raise errorclass, errorvalue TypeError: not all arguments converted during string formatting ... as I say if anyone could provide me with some tips I'd appreciate it. thanks richard shea. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: SPE IDE videos and more...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm happy to spread the word about showmedo.com, an excellent collection of python programming videos. From the website http://showmedo.com/videoListPage?listKey=TheBigPythonList: The server response under: http://showmedo.com/videoListPage?listKey=TheBigPythonList: was: 500 Internal error Server got itself in trouble Powered by Cherrypy 2.1.0 If there is not enough trouble around to suffer from, why not get itself in trouble? ;-) As the computer becomes more and more human like, even able to get itself in trouble, the fact that it has the courage to admit the true reason for the trouble emerges it as a stupid machine. :-)) By the way: it was _me_ who caused the server to be in trouble feeding it with a bad URL instead of the right one: http://showmedo.com/videoListPage?listKey=TheBigPythonList Sometimes it is good, that there is no human on the other end of the line knowing about all this dirty words which can be thrown back as excuse for own malfunction ... Claudio -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Req. for module style/organization
RayS wrote: I've begun a Python module to provide a complete interface to the Meade LX200 command set, and have searched for a style/development guide for Python Lib/site-packages type modules, but only saw guides for C-modules. I realize that I need to make some changes to follow http://www.python.org/doc/essays/styleguide.html better. Does anyone have an appropriate URL for me to follow for this task? Is one of the C-module guides appropriate? There are two informal Python Enhancements Proposals: Style Guide for C Code - http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0007.html Style Guide for Python Code - http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0008.html I have: LX200/ __init__.py LXSerial.py Telescope.py Focuser.py LXUtils.py ... etc Each file has one class defined. This style is not encuraged any more because of the ambiguity with imports; see http://mail.python.org/pipermail/web-sig/2006-February/002093.html for details. All advice is appreciated, Ray Ziga -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Which is faster? (if not b in m) or (if m.count(b) 0)
On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 10:08:48 +1100, Delaney, Timothy \(Tim\) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Farel wrote: Tim, Are you saying that: not (b in m) is faster than: b not in m On the contrary. `not (b in m)` requires negating the result of `b in m` (via an additional bytecode operation). `b not in m` doesn't. However, the difference in performance is minimal, as testing using the timeit module will show you. Not since Python 2.4: dis.dis(lambda: x not in y) 1 0 LOAD_GLOBAL 0 (x) 3 LOAD_GLOBAL 1 (y) 6 COMPARE_OP 7 (not in) 9 RETURN_VALUE dis.dis(lambda: not (x in y)) 1 0 LOAD_GLOBAL 0 (x) 3 LOAD_GLOBAL 1 (y) 6 COMPARE_OP 7 (not in) 9 RETURN_VALUE The important difference is the improvement in clarity. There is no possibility for misinterpretation as to the meaning of `b not in m`, whereas with the original `not b in m` I had to actually go check the precedence rules to be sure what would happen. Adding the parentheses makes it clear, but doesn't read as well as using the `not in` operator. As others have said, if you really care about the performance of something, the timeit module is your friend. Discussions about *why* you get certain performance results are then useful. But this stuff is all still true :) Jean-Paul -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: commenting out blocks of code
Atanas Banov: here is something you both seems to have not considered: imagine you make decision if ^Q has to comment or uncomment based on the 1st line and not on each line individually in the block. When first implementing Ctrl+Q, this looked to have similar advantages and disadvantages to the chosen implementation. However, it wouldn't allow a technique I've come to use which is to have two versions of some code or section of a configuration file and to toggle between the two by selecting the whole range and pressing Ctrl+Q. #code1 ##comment1 ##comment2 #code2 note how ## maintains where comments were. now, for the same selection, ^Q again? 1st character is #, so the editor is asked to uncomment, dwim: The problem with ## as opposed to #~ is that ## is common in much source code particularly in barrier comments and comment sections: Persistence section ## These functions are responsible for load ## and save for the core media database. Neil -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Which is faster? (if not b in m) or (if m.count(b) 0)
Jean-Paul Calderone wrote: Not since Python 2.4: dis.dis(lambda: x not in y) 1 0 LOAD_GLOBAL 0 (x) 3 LOAD_GLOBAL 1 (y) 6 COMPARE_OP 7 (not in) 9 RETURN_VALUE dis.dis(lambda: not (x in y)) 1 0 LOAD_GLOBAL 0 (x) 3 LOAD_GLOBAL 1 (y) 6 COMPARE_OP 7 (not in) 9 RETURN_VALUE Damn - I missed that change. Peephole optimiser I guess. Tim Delaney -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: editor for Python on Linux
gedit -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Eric3 Help/Tutorial
Does anyone know of Help docs/tutorials that explain Eric3's plethora of features? http://www.die-offenbachs.de/detlev/eric3.html Thanks, Julius -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
