Re: [OT] Dutch Reach [was Re: Where has the practice of sending screen shots as source code come from?]

[Rustom Mody]

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 11:17:45 PM UTC+5:30, Adriaan Renting wrote:
> I am Dutch and after googling the term, I can confirm that the "Dutch
> Reach" is taught in driving school here.
> I was taught this maneuvre when getting my licence 20 years ago.

 

> And in the Netherlands, we largely solve this problem by just having
> everyone on a bike. ;-)
> (We do ride cars as well)

Good to have an existence proof for civilization

Topic remains wildly OT until somebody adds one more piece to the jigsaw:
"…statistical evidence that the practice of 'dutch-reach' has significantly
reduced the instances of dooring…"
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Re: [OT] Dutch Reach [was Re: Where has the practice of sending screen shots as source code come from?]

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 16:14:45 +0100, Adriaan Renting wrote:

> I am Dutch and after googling the term, I can confirm that the "Dutch
> Reach" is taught in driving school here. I was taught this maneuvre when
> getting my licence 20 years ago.

Thanks for the data point. Was it a requirement of the driving test?


> If it is actually used by a lot of people, I can't confirm. I use it
> most of the time, depending on what model car I'm driving. (wether the
> door handles are easy to reach/operate).
> 
> The way I was taught, you have to check your mirrors and then use it to
> force you to check your blind spot, 

But it doesn't force you to do anything - reaching over to the door 
handle with your opposite hand doesn't make you look over your shoulder.

And given that you are stopped, any vehicle travelling in your blind spot 
is going to only be there for a fraction of a second. If you are taking a 
genuine careful look for traffic, rather than a quick careless glance, 
you'll see any vehicle in your blind spot because it won't be in the 
blind spot for long.


> mostly to avoid cars hitting
> you/your door on the drivers side.

Yes, this is also a big problem. I used to work with somebody who came 
within a fraction of a centimetre of taking a woman's arm off when she 
suddenly opened the door to her car as he drove past in a narrow road. He 
took the door completely off.


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Steve

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Re: [OT] Dutch Reach [was Re: Where has the practice of sending screen shots as source code come from?]

[Adriaan Renting]

Adriaan Renting| Email: rent...@astron.nl
Software Engineer Radio Observatory
ASTRON | Phone: +31 521 595 100 (797 direct)
P.O. Box 2 | GSM:   +31 6 24 25 17 28
NL-7990 AA Dwingeloo   | FAX:   +31 521 595 101
The Netherlands| Web: http://www.astron.nl/~renting/



>>> On 30-1-2018 at 19:22, MRAB  wrote: 
> On 2018-01-30 15:39, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 05:48:15 -0800, Rustom Mody wrote:
>> 
>> [...]
 Ah, yes, the Dutch Reach. That would be like the French Pox
(which
 isn't French), the Spanish Flu (that didn't start in Spain), the
 Jerusalem artichoke (which is neither an artichoke nor from
Jerusalem),
 and the turkey (the bird, which has nothing to do with Turkey,
the
 country).
 
 This technique is neither taught nor commonly used used by the
Dutch:
 apparently some Americans decided that because the Netherlands has
a
 lot of cyclists, they'll say its Dutch.
>>> 
>>> reference please
>> 
>> The onus should be on those who claim that the technique actually is
used
>> by the Dutch. Anecdotally, the Dutch people I've spoken to on the
>> Internet had no idea that this technique even existed.
>> 
> Do we know of anyone who's Dutch and frequents a Python newsgroup?
:-)
> 

I am Dutch and after googling the term, I can confirm that the "Dutch
Reach" is taught in driving school here.
I was taught this maneuvre when getting my licence 20 years ago.

If it is actually used by a lot of people, I can't confirm.
I use it most of the time, depending on what model car I'm driving.
(wether the door handles are easy to reach/operate).

The way I was taught, you have to check your mirrors and then use it to
force you to check your blind spot, mostly to avoid cars hitting
you/your door on the drivers side.
I don't remember any specific mention of bicycles or use by passengers
of this maneuvre.

I think in general cars are a much larger danger than bicycles:
- Faster: More likely have not been seen by you or not see you.
- More mass: Damage much bigger. (yes also depends on the square of the
velocity).
- Worse perception. A Bicyclist usually has unrestricted hearing and
vision around themselves, and is much more likely to have noticed the
person in the car.
- Bicyclists will understand they are vulnerable and be more careful.

Motorbikes and mopeds are the hardest for me, as they are more likely
to be missed due to their speed.

And in the Netherlands, we largely solve this problem by just having
everyone on a bike. ;-)
(We do ride cars as well)

If you want to know more about how the Dutch go about their cycling and
images of Dutch infrastructure, then I suggest the BicycleDutch Youtube
channel, for example this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swqaAIkGtpA

The difference with a lot of other places, is that we use bicycles as a
means of transport, not as an excercise/sports device.
In general for distances < 15km (10 miles) and anything up to about the
size of a couch.

> [snip]

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Re: [OT] Dutch Reach [was Re: Where has the practice of sending screen shots as source code come from?]

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 09:39:26 -0700, Ian Kelly wrote:

> Also, I just wanted to add that if you're going to use the side mirror
> then you need to watch it for a couple of seconds rather than a quick
> glance. Most people's mirrors are not particularly well adjusted to
> capture the car's blind spot, which is exactly where an oncoming cyclist
> would be. A blind spot that can fit an entire car inside of it is
> enormous compared to the size of a bicycle.

How slow is the bike travelling that it takes a couple of seconds to 
cross the length of a car? If they're travelling that slowly, they're not 
so much going to collide with the door as gently nudge it.

Of course you should do more than a quick glance, it should be a proper 
look[1], but surely in a couple of seconds a cyclist could easily travel 
three or four car lengths.




[1] You're not just looking out for cyclists, but traffic, since you're 
stepping out into traffic yourself and presumably would prefer not to 
have some wayward car take your door off, and you with it.



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Steve

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Re: [OT] Dutch Reach [was Re: Where has the practice of sending screen shots as source code come from?]

[Grant Edwards]

On 2018-01-30, Ian Kelly  wrote:
>
>> Unless the bike lane is between the "parallel parking lane" and the
>> curb[*], in which case it's the passenger side doors that are used to
>> catch bicycles rather than the driver's side doors.
>>
>> [*] This seems to be increasingly common here in the Minneapolis /
>> St. Paul area
>
> This seems like it would tend to make the "dooring" problem worse,
> since people are not generally accustomed to using caution when
> opening their door toward the curb rather than the street.

That may be mitigated by the high percentage of cars in US cities that
have no passengers.

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  gmail.comabout your INTESTINES being
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Re: [OT] Dutch Reach [was Re: Where has the practice of sending screen shots as source code come from?]

[Ian Kelly]

On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 9:24 AM, Grant Edwards
 wrote:
> On 2018-01-30, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 15:48:29 +, Matt Wheeler wrote:
>>
>>> Checking the side mirrors isn't particularly helpful advice if you're
>>> sitting in any seat other than the driver's seat, however.
>>
>> That's a fair point.
>>
>> But it really only applies to those sitting on the driver's side in the
>> back seat. On the passenger's side, you open the door towards the curb,
>> out of the way of both cyclists and on-coming traffic.
>
> Unless the bike lane is between the "parallel parking lane" and the
> curb[*], in which case it's the passenger side doors that are used to
> catch bicycles rather than the driver's side doors.
>
> [*] This seems to be increasingly common here in the Minneapolis /
> St. Paul area

This seems like it would tend to make the "dooring" problem worse,
since people are not generally accustomed to using caution when
opening their door toward the curb rather than the street.

Also, I just wanted to add that if you're going to use the side mirror
then you need to watch it for a couple of seconds rather than a quick
glance. Most people's mirrors are not particularly well adjusted to
capture the car's blind spot, which is exactly where an oncoming
cyclist would be. A blind spot that can fit an entire car inside of it
is enormous compared to the size of a bicycle.
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Re: [OT] Dutch Reach [was Re: Where has the practice of sending screen shots as source code come from?]

[MRAB]

On 2018-01-30 15:39, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 05:48:15 -0800, Rustom Mody wrote:

[...]

Ah, yes, the Dutch Reach. That would be like the French Pox (which
isn't French), the Spanish Flu (that didn't start in Spain), the
Jerusalem artichoke (which is neither an artichoke nor from Jerusalem),
and the turkey (the bird, which has nothing to do with Turkey, the
country).

This technique is neither taught nor commonly used used by the Dutch:
apparently some Americans decided that because the Netherlands has a
lot of cyclists, they'll say its Dutch.


reference please


The onus should be on those who claim that the technique actually is used
by the Dutch. Anecdotally, the Dutch people I've spoken to on the
Internet had no idea that this technique even existed.


Do we know of anyone who's Dutch and frequents a Python newsgroup? :-)

[snip]
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Re: [OT] Dutch Reach [was Re: Where has the practice of sending screen shots as source code come from?]

[Grant Edwards]

On 2018-01-30, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 15:48:29 +, Matt Wheeler wrote:
>
>> Checking the side mirrors isn't particularly helpful advice if you're
>> sitting in any seat other than the driver's seat, however.
>
> That's a fair point.
>
> But it really only applies to those sitting on the driver's side in the 
> back seat. On the passenger's side, you open the door towards the curb, 
> out of the way of both cyclists and on-coming traffic.

Unless the bike lane is between the "parallel parking lane" and the
curb[*], in which case it's the passenger side doors that are used to
catch bicycles rather than the driver's side doors.

[*] This seems to be increasingly common here in the Minneapolis /
St. Paul area

-- 
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  at   a salami!
  gmail.com

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Re: [OT] Dutch Reach [was Re: Where has the practice of sending screen shots as source code come from?]

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 15:48:29 +, Matt Wheeler wrote:

> Checking the side mirrors isn't particularly helpful advice if you're
> sitting in any seat other than the driver's seat, however.

That's a fair point.

But it really only applies to those sitting on the driver's side in the 
back seat. On the passenger's side, you open the door towards the curb, 
out of the way of both cyclists and on-coming traffic.

For the minority of passengers sitting in the rear on the driver's side, 
you just have to be extra careful about opening the door and stepping out 
into the road, not just for the sake of cyclists, but also for the sake 
of not being side-swiped by a car or truck as you step into the road.



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Steve

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Re: [OT] Dutch Reach [was Re: Where has the practice of sending screen shots as source code come from?]

[Matt Wheeler]

On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 at 15:39 Steven D'Aprano <
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info> wrote:

> This effectively and completely undermines the supposed claim that this
> technique makes it *automatic* to look behind you for on-coming cyclists.
> That simply isn't the case. Whether you use the arm closest or furthest
> from the door, you still need to make a conscious effort to either look
> over your shoulder (where your view will be obstructed by the car pillar
> by the door), or consciously check your side mirror.
>

Checking the side mirrors isn't particularly helpful advice if you're
sitting in any seat other than the driver's seat, however.
-- 

--
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http://funkyh.at
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[OT] Dutch Reach [was Re: Where has the practice of sending screen shots as source code come from?]

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 05:48:15 -0800, Rustom Mody wrote:

[...]
>> Ah, yes, the Dutch Reach. That would be like the French Pox (which
>> isn't French), the Spanish Flu (that didn't start in Spain), the
>> Jerusalem artichoke (which is neither an artichoke nor from Jerusalem),
>> and the turkey (the bird, which has nothing to do with Turkey, the
>> country).
>> 
>> This technique is neither taught nor commonly used used by the Dutch:
>> apparently some Americans decided that because the Netherlands has a
>> lot of cyclists, they'll say its Dutch.
> 
> reference please

The onus should be on those who claim that the technique actually is used 
by the Dutch. Anecdotally, the Dutch people I've spoken to on the 
Internet had no idea that this technique even existed.

(I happened to know about this because this week's "QI" on the BBC 
happened to mention it, and that show is very popular among the Dutch. 
There's been quite a number of comments on Reddit from Dutch people 
complaining about the QI Elves' lack of fact checking regarding this, as 
well as machine vision.)

Even the organisation who invented the term acknowledge that lots of 
people, *especially* Dutch people, take issue with their claim that the 
technique is required by Dutch law, is taught in Dutch schools, and is 
routinely practiced by the Dutch.

Their answer? To paraphrase their rambling explanation here:

https://www.dutchreach.org/is-the-dutch-reach-really-dutch/

Trust us, it was required by NL law decades ago but isn't
any longer now, it was never given a name and so even though
it is really commonplace and everyone in NL does it, nobody
remembers doing it. And besides, its only young Dutch people
who say that nobody uses this technique there, what do they
know? Old people use it all the time.

(Not a direct quote.)

Yeah, colour me skeptical that this actually ever was a commonplace 
practice in the NL, or anywhere else for that matter.

There's an easy way to find out whether this is commonplace in the NLs. 
Look at Dutch movies and television. How do the characters open their car 
doors?

By the way, anyone who actually has a car: I encourage you to sit in 
driver's seat of your car and try out this "Dutch Reach" maneuver for 
yourself. If you do, you will probably have the same experience that I 
did when I tried it:

It is awkward and clumsy to reach across and open the door with your 
opposite hand, but most importantly, doing so does NOT cause your upper 
body to twist around enough to automatically look behind the car for on-
coming cyclists. I estimate that my head and upper torso rotated no more 
than about 30 degree from "straight ahead".

This effectively and completely undermines the supposed claim that this 
technique makes it *automatic* to look behind you for on-coming cyclists. 
That simply isn't the case. Whether you use the arm closest or furthest 
from the door, you still need to make a conscious effort to either look 
over your shoulder (where your view will be obstructed by the car pillar 
by the door), or consciously check your side mirror.

Guess which one is both easier and more effective?


-- 
Steve

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