Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
But it would be a nice enhancement to add the option for auto-emailing in case of trouble. I like still like e-mail notices (it has a nice format we are used to as we use to communicate other things, and you can parse the text easily)... but I wonder: given the spam / virus induced sensitivity to mail servers, does it make more sense to send a text message to a db on the developer's server? Has anyone got some open source code to do something like that handy? /EP -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, Benji York wrote: Cliff Wells wrote: As I mentioned earlier, programming is half brains and half tenacity. +1 QOTY (quote of the year) Personally, i'd say it was 50% brains, 40% tenacity and 20% basic arithmetic. 8) tom -- non, scarecrow, forensics, rituals, bacteria, scientific instruments, .. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Tom Anderson ha scritto: On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, Benji York wrote: Cliff Wells wrote: As I mentioned earlier, programming is half brains and half tenacity. +1 QOTY (quote of the year) Personally, i'd say it was 50% brains, 40% tenacity and 20% basic arithmetic. 8) tom The famed 110% efficiency/commitment/etc every manager wants and talks about comes from this? -- Adriano Varoli Piazza The Inside Out: http://moranar.com.ar MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 4410132 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Paul McNett wrote: I've done things like this in the past, in my own Visual Foxpro framework. In that situation, I had enough control over the deployment to also ship a small smtp client, and automatically email the error without requiring any interaction at all. Clients were impressed when I'd already have a fix for the problem before they even notified me of the issue! Well, I thought about doing the same, which is easy since python already has smtplib built into the stdlib. I was just lazy and didn't do it. Though I would not implement it to send things silently without user acknowledgement. Since ipython is not installed by me on user machines (your situation was obviously different), I prefer to notify users of things about to be done first, in case they'd rather not have it 'call home'. But it would be a nice enhancement to add the option for auto-emailing in case of trouble. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Jorge Godoy opined: We can find several problems, almost all of them can be solved with the admin's creativity. In response to which Cliff Wells posted an interpreter session: import creativity Traceback (most recent call last): File stdin, line 1, in ? ImportError: No module named creativity Nope. Not included with Python. Can't be used. Does anyone remember where all the modules in The Path originated from? Joesusedgui modules mingle with the standard library on my machine, and as long as the import statements work, maybe it doesn't matter. Which, again, is Python? Python 2.4.1 (#65, Mar 30 2005, 09:13:57) [MSC v.1310 32 bit (Intel)] on win32 *** IDLE 1.1.1 import creativity creativity.whatis() Creativity is everywhere, even more so in the abysss generator object at 0x00B433F0 cheers -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Jorge Godoy wrote: I agree where you say that lack of information is a risk. But I don't see how it -- lack of information -- wouldn't affect both scenarios. At least, Because you put different probabilities on different outcomes. One easy 'risk markup' would be to assume that parts of the standard Python distribution like TkInter have a higher chance of working with the next release than external libraries like wxPython. Of course, there are lots of other possible criteria: - which has been under more active development in the last releases - which source code is easier to understand so that I don't have to rely on external help Daniel -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Daniel Dittmar wrote: Because you put different probabilities on different outcomes. One easy 'risk markup' would be to assume that parts of the standard Python distribution like TkInter have a higher chance of working with the next release than external libraries like wxPython. Of course, there are lots I think it will be true only if there's no package for the considered toolkit on my Linux distribution, *BSD, Windows or Mac. I don't see it as a risk because having the toolkit available on the destination platform is a pre-requisite and comes before coding. If I already have the code working on some version, backwards compatibility handles a little of the problem and besides, I can create one new package for the lacking environment. I just need to do this work once. of other possible criteria: - which has been under more active development in the last releases - which source code is easier to understand so that I don't have to rely on external help - Which takes less time - Which needs less hand written code - Which provides more functionality - Which has data aware controls - ... There are lots of other things that are considered, independently of the toolkit. None gets a 100% OK grade, and some things have a higher weight to me or to the client. -- Jorge Godoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
James Stroud [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps some of us are writing software with non-developer end-users in mind and we kind of keep that mentality when evaluating modules our code uses. In the commercial environment I'm working in, non-developer end-users get a frozen executable. They don't know that there are eight packages not included in the standard library (including wxPython) in there, unless they go looking in the licences directory. They don't even have to install Python. Using a swarm of potentially awkward third-party modules and keeping things simple for the user are not incompatible. Of course, going back to Dabo there is the question of whether it has such a thing as a non-developer end-user. -- \S -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chaos.org.uk/~sion/ ___ | Frankly I have no feelings towards penguins one way or the other \X/ |-- Arthur C. Clarke her nu becomeþ se bera eadward ofdun hlæddre heafdes bæce bump bump bump -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
On Tuesday 02 August 2005 09:15, Sion Arrowsmith wrote: Of course, going back to Dabo there is the question of whether it has such a thing as a non-developer end-user. Yes and no. Developers will be the primary users of Dabo, of course, but they will most likely use it to create apps that non-developers will then use, so packaging/distribution certainly comes into play at some point. -- -- Ed Leafe -- http://leafe.com -- http://dabodev.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Ed Leafe wrote: On Monday 01 August 2005 11:56, Terry Reedy wrote: That is an impossibility. However, there is a middle path between that and no defensive code. In the present case, you appear to acknowledge a known easy way to mis-compile wxWidgets from Dabo's viewpoint. If there is a known easy way to detect that misconfiguration (which I suspect there is), and it is known that someone has tripped over that problem (which it now is), then a nice error message like 'Sorry, Dabo need wxWidgets compiled with the --include_stylized_text option' would certainly be friendlier than a stack trace. OK, that's more of what I had in mind. Truth be told, this is the first time we've run into this, and as a result I'll make the change to that import statement today. plug, but hopefully a useful one You may want to steal the crash handling code from ipython. In order to address this kind of problem, ipython sticks an exceptionally verbose traceback printer into sys.excepthook. If ipython ever crashes, the user gets a LOT of info, and it's all packaged ready to go, to be emailed to me. Here's an example of the result (I stuck 1/0 inside to force the crash): In [1]: print 'hello' hello In [2]: --- exceptions.ZeroDivisionError Python 2.3.4: /usr/bin/python Tue Aug 2 11:21:46 2005 A problem occured executing Python code. Here is the sequence of function calls leading up to the error, with the most recent (innermost) call last. /home/fperez/usr/bin/ipython -2 import IPython -1 0 IPython.Shell.start().mainloop() /usr/local/home/fperez/code/python/IPython/Shell.py in mainloop(self=IPython.Shell.IPShell instance, sys_exit=0, banner=None) /home/fperez/code/python/IPython/iplib.py in mainloop(self=IPython.iplib.InteractiveShell instance, banner='Python 2.3.4 (#1, Feb 2 2005, 12:11:53) \nType ...ut \'object\'. ?object also works, ?? prints more.\n') 1263 1264 def mainloop(self,banner=None): 1265 Creates the local namespace and starts the mainloop. 1266 1267 If an optional banner argument is given, it will override the 1268 internally created default banner. 1269 1270 self.name_space_init() 1271 if self.rc.c: # Emulate Python's -c option 1272 self.exec_init_cmd() 1273 if banner is None: 1274 if self.rc.banner: 1275 banner = self.BANNER+self.banner2 1276 else: 1277 banner = '' - 1278 self.interact(banner) self.interact = bound method InteractiveShell.interact of IPython.iplib.InteractiveShell instance at 0x4005ffac banner = 'Python 2.3.4 (#1, Feb 2 2005, 12:11:53) \nType copyright, credits or license for more information.\n\nIPython 0.6.16_svn -- An enhanced Interactive Python.\n? - Introduction to IPython\'s features \n%magic - Information about IPython\'s \'magic\' % functions.\nhelp- Python\'s own help system.\nobject? - Details about \'object\'. ?object also works, ?? prints more.\n' 1279 1280 def exec_init_cmd(self): 1281 Execute a command given at the command line. 1282 1283 This emulates Python's -c option. 1284 1285 sys.argv = ['-c'] 1286 self.push(self.rc.c) 1287 1288 def embed_mainloop(self,header='',local_ns=None,global_ns=None,stack_depth=0): 1289 Embeds IPython into a running python program. 1290 1291 Input: 1292 1293 - header: An optional header message can be specified. [...] LOTS MORE: each stack frame has a lot of surrounding context printed, and all locals as well. Then this is the end of the printout: 1399 except KeyboardInterrupt: - 1400 1/0 1401 self.write(\nKeyboardInterrupt\n) 1402 self.resetbuffer() 1403 more = 0 1404 # keep cache in sync with the prompt counter: 1405 self.outputcache.prompt_count -= 1 1406 1407 if self.autoindent: 1408 self.readline_indent = 0 1409 1410 except bdb.BdbQuit: 1411 warn(The Python debugger has exited with a BdbQuit exception.\n 1412 Because of how pdb handles the stack, it is impossible\n 1413 for IPython to properly format this particular exception.\n 1414 IPython will resume normal operation.) 1415 ZeroDivisionError: integer division or modulo by zero ** Oops, IPython crashed. We do our best to make it stable, but... A crash report was automatically generated with the following information: - A verbatim copy of
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Fernando Perez wrote: plug, but hopefully a useful one You may want to steal the crash handling code from ipython. In order to address this kind of problem, ipython sticks an exceptionally verbose traceback printer into sys.excepthook. If ipython ever crashes, the user gets a LOT of info, and it's all packaged ready to go, to be emailed to me. Here's an example of the result (I stuck 1/0 inside to force the crash): [snip] This approach has worked very well for me over the years, and these crash report emails have become fortunately rather rare as of late :) If you are interested, just get ipython and grab the files for this, it's all BSD licensed. You can also browse the SVN repo here if you want to look at the code: http://ipython.scipy.org/svn/ipython/ipython/trunk/IPython/ The relevant files are ultraTB.py and CrashHandler.py. Thanks Fernando, consider your excellent code stolen! :) I'll probably make a flag that defaults to ultraTB but that can also be set to leave sys.excepthook as-is. Best of both worlds! I've done things like this in the past, in my own Visual Foxpro framework. In that situation, I had enough control over the deployment to also ship a small smtp client, and automatically email the error without requiring any interaction at all. Clients were impressed when I'd already have a fix for the problem before they even notified me of the issue! -- Paul McNett http://paulmcnett.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
On Tuesday 02 August 2005 13:40, Fernando Perez wrote: The point is that something like this: - gives an experienced user a lot of information to track down the bug if they feel like it. - but also gives the raw newbie an easy solution: just mail me that auto-generated crash file and forget about it. Thanks! This looks like a great approach - I may have to borrow it! -- -- Ed Leafe -- http://leafe.com -- http://dabodev.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Paul McNett wrote: Fernando Perez wrote: If you are interested, just get ipython and grab the files for this, it's all BSD licensed. You can also browse the SVN repo here if you want to look at the code: http://ipython.scipy.org/svn/ipython/ipython/trunk/IPython/ The relevant files are ultraTB.py and CrashHandler.py. Thanks Fernando, consider your excellent code stolen! :) I'll probably make a flag that defaults to ultraTB but that can also be set to leave sys.excepthook as-is. Best of both worlds! Glad to be of use! I should probably ship this standalone, as I'm sure a lot of projects could use it, and the tracebacks are a hell of a lot better than what you get with python's default printouts. So little time... By all means contact me with complaints/bugs if you run into problems with this code. Cheers, f -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Hello! On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:38:44 -0700 James Stroud wrote: On Sunday 31 July 2005 05:14 pm, Robert Kern wrote: You can't blame Dabo for this one. Your wxPython install is broken. Yes, but my Tkinter install works just fine. But you chose wx: dabo.ui.loadUI(wx) Why can't I compile my linux kernel? I know, my gcc is broken, but my Python runs fine? SCNR. greets, Marek -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
On Sunday 31 July 2005 20:09, James Stroud wrote: Incidentally, I'm not really interested in knowing what is wrong here, frankly I haven't even looked at the output except that I notice that it is a stack trace, so don't bother telling me how simple it is to fix and that I should know this or that. You might be right, but I simply don't care at this point. Sorry dabo guys. You are only one of many. No problem. But let me ask you what would *not* have disappointed you. As others have pointed out, you didn't compile the wxWidgets part of your wxPython install so as to include the stylized text control (yes, it seems silly that you should have to specify that, but that's another thread...) Should we have defensive code for every possible broken installation? We use a lot of the Python standard library modules, many dbapi-compliant modules, and, of course, wxPython. If someone mis-installs one of the pre-requisites, do you expect Dabo to catch that and present you with a diagnostic message? I'm serious here: I want to know what people consider acceptable for a software package that relies on other packages. -- -- Ed Leafe -- http://leafe.com -- http://dabodev.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Ed Leafe wrote: Should we have defensive code for every possible broken installation? We use a lot of the Python standard library modules, many dbapi-compliant modules, and, of course, wxPython. If someone mis-installs one of the pre-requisites, do you expect Dabo to catch that and present you with a diagnostic message? I'm serious here: I want to know what people consider acceptable for a software package that relies on other packages. If it doesn't interfere with my other custom options, catching unsatisfied requisites is interesting. But a helpful stack trace is enough for the developer. Just be sure to say that it was this or that requisite that generated the problem and that's it. Giving some references on how to fix the problem is a plus. But if you're going to check everything, you'll end up checking the whole system at each and every run -- because I might have added / removed packages since I installed Dabo -- what would give a big performance penalty. -- Jorge Godoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
On Mon, 2005-08-01 at 08:30 -0400, Ed Leafe wrote: On Sunday 31 July 2005 20:09, James Stroud wrote: No problem. But let me ask you what would *not* have disappointed you. As others have pointed out, you didn't compile the wxWidgets part of your wxPython install so as to include the stylized text control (yes, it seems silly that you should have to specify that, but that's another thread...) Should we have defensive code for every possible broken installation? We use a lot of the Python standard library modules, many dbapi-compliant modules, and, of course, wxPython. If someone mis-installs one of the pre-requisites, do you expect Dabo to catch that and present you with a diagnostic message? I'm serious here: I want to know what people consider acceptable for a software package that relies on other packages. Personally, all I expect is an obvious pointer to a mailing list and a helpful community willing to suffer NB questions (fast bugfixes is a big plus too). If that's available, I'm happy. But then I'm willing to actually work a little to get what I want. For other it seems they won't be happy unless you drive to their house and install it for them (which only seems fair, cause if you hadn't volunteered to write such crap then they wouldn't have had to be bothered with it in the first place, damn you). Maybe you wouldn't mind tidying up a bit and washing a few dishes while you're at it? Can't *quite* get this spoon to my mouth'ly yours, Cliff -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.develix.com :: Web applications and hosting :: Linux, PostgreSQL and Python specialists :: -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Cliff (who has a love/hate relationship with Twisted) wrote: Twisted, for one, can't be used without knowing Python. In fact, without knowing Python quite well. For that matter, it can't easily be used wink. Is using really a verb that is fitting for working with twisted? As much as I read and tried to learn, it is not that you use twisted, but you provide twisted with callbacks so that it uses you? So it is more something about devotion or digestion then simply use, or? Harald -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
On Monday 01 August 2005 09:28, Harald Armin Massa wrote: it is not that you use twisted, but you provide twisted with callbacks so that it uses you? +1 QOTW -- -- Ed Leafe -- http://leafe.com -- http://dabodev.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
I think this is the kind of thing that Phillip J Eby's PythonEggs/setuptools project is supposed to manage - you can declare your dependencies, and it can manage (to some extent) download and installation of the correct versions of dependencies, without clobbering existing package versions. It's at http://peak.telecommunity.com/DevCenter/PythonEggs I haven't heard much about it recently, but it looks brilliant. xtian -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
On 31 Jul 2005 16:22:09 -0700, Paul Rubin http://phr.cx@nospam.invalid wrote: I spent several hours trying to install wxPython on Linux without success (a lot of that was figuring out that some undefined symbol it was complaining about was some GTK 1.5 function that had didn't exist in GTK 2.1). As I remember, wxPython itself compiled without too much trouble but wxWidgets and/or GTK 1.5 (once I got a copy of that) had some problems. I decided I just didn't care enough to keep pursuing it. I'll bet you didn't even bother to read the docs, which give precise step-by-step instructions for building from source. Oh, that's right, you don't care enough to read directions. I suppose with that attitude, you can make just about anything fail. -- # p.d. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
On 8/1/05, Cliff Wells [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally, all I expect is an obvious pointer to a mailing list and a helpful community willing to suffer NB questions (fast bugfixes is a big plus too). If that's available, I'm happy. But then I'm willing to actually work a little to get what I want. For other it seems they won't be happy unless you drive to their house and install it for them (which only seems fair, cause if you hadn't volunteered to write such crap then they wouldn't have had to be bothered with it in the first place, damn you). Maybe you wouldn't mind tidying up a bit and washing a few dishes while you're at it? ROFLMAO! Yep, it's their fault for not charging us for their work! How evil can people get? Sharing their work and asking for nothing in return? What bastards!! -- # p.d. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Cliff Wells wrote: But then I'm willing to actually work a little to get what I want. For other it seems they won't be happy unless you drive to their house and install it for them To be fair to those slothes: some of them want to write software for a commercial setting where they have to install it on other peoples machines. So it isn't just getting it to work one one own's machine. Using a specifc Python library with external dependencies means also installing and *supporting* it on a possible large set of configurations. Daniel -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Daniel Dittmar wrote: To be fair to those slothes: some of them want to write software for a commercial setting where they have to install it on other peoples machines. So it isn't just getting it to work one one own's machine. Using a specifc Python library with external dependencies means also installing and *supporting* it on a possible large set of configurations. I see no problem with that. Specially since there are lots of ways to share directories on a network installation. You install it once and it's done. -- Jorge Godoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Jorge Godoy wrote: Daniel Dittmar wrote: To be fair to those slothes: some of them want to write software for a commercial setting where they have to install it on other peoples machines. So it isn't just getting it to work one one own's machine. Using a specifc Python library with external dependencies means also installing and *supporting* it on a possible large set of configurations. I see no problem with that. Specially since there are lots of ways to share directories on a network installation. You install it once and it's done. Some on Windows, some on one Linux, some on another Linux with a newer GTK, some want it on their laptops to work on the road ... Daniel -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Ed Leafe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] others have pointed out, you didn't compile the wxWidgets part of your wxPython install so as to include the stylized text control (yes, it seems silly that you should have to specify that, but that's another thread...) Should we have defensive code for every possible broken installation? That is an impossibility. However, there is a middle path between that and no defensive code. In the present case, you appear to acknowledge a known easy way to mis-compile wxWidgets from Dabo's viewpoint. If there is a known easy way to detect that misconfiguration (which I suspect there is), and it is known that someone has tripped over that problem (which it now is), then a nice error message like 'Sorry, Dabo need wxWidgets compiled with the --include_stylized_text option' would certainly be friendlier than a stack trace. The Python docs, while written fairly carefully, are probably not yet free of ambiguities. So when people report them, clarifications are usually added. We use a lot of the Python standard library modules, many dbapi-compliant modules, and, of course, wxPython. If someone mis-installs one of the pre-requisites, do you expect Dabo to catch that and present you with a diagnostic message? In a sense, I expect nothing from giftware. (And I have learned to expect less than I think I have a right to from buyware ... but that another story.) But if I were to make a prereq mistake, I would prefer more help to less. If you were to do this, I would suggest you make an errormsgs module with the text of all the messages and which defines a flag use_msgs = True. Then you could conditionally print a message after catching ImportError while letting developer turn them off, if desired, for apps they plan to distribute. I'm serious here: I want to know what people consider acceptable for a software package that relies on other packages. To me, acceptability depends on the audience. Do you want to limit Dabo to professional developers comfortable with sometimes cryptic traceback messages or do you want to include people using Python as part of other activities? Terry J. Reedy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
On Mon, 2005-08-01 at 16:21 +0200, Daniel Dittmar wrote: Cliff Wells wrote: But then I'm willing to actually work a little to get what I want. For other it seems they won't be happy unless you drive to their house and install it for them To be fair to those slothes: some of them want to write software for a commercial setting where they have to install it on other peoples machines. So it isn't just getting it to work one one own's machine. Using a specifc Python library with external dependencies means also installing and *supporting* it on a possible large set of configurations. I can understand this, but from my experience, their concerns are badly misplaced: I recently wrote a fairly sizable Python app (~8K LOC) that utilized several 3rd party python librarys: wxPython, Twisted, FeedParser, DateUtils and SQLite to name a few off the top of my head (plus I had to repackage libxml and libxslt on OS/X because 10.3 ships with broken versions :P). It ran on Windows and OS/X (and Linux, but that was never deployed as the customer wasn't interested). This was for a *very* large customer and made it to nearly 10,000 desktops. Not one complaint had to do with installation of 3rd party packages. Why? Because I *packaged* it for them. Most of the effort I put in had little to do with any 3rd party Python library but rather just the ins and outs of each platform's packaging tools (and this can be no little pain I assure you). I will also note, out of fairness, that the port to OS/X was not as pain-free as I had hoped (wxPython was fairly new to that platform and I found more than a few bugs - most of them are resolved now, because I didn't just give up when I found them, rather I reported them and drum roll they got fixed! Who would have thought?!). In short, these people's complaints reveal only two things: 1) they are hopelessly pessimistic, whether out of pure laziness, lack of experience or what I'm unsure and 2) they've never actually tried very hard or perhaps even at all. Overall that's a recipe for failure in any endeavor. As I mentioned earlier, programming is half brains and half tenacity. If you lack one or the other, your chances of success are pretty slim. The sad thing is that their ability to cling so tenaciously to such an unqualified position leaves me wondering if it isn't truly the first quality that they lack. Given how easy Python makes things, I'd hate to see how they'd fare with a *real* programming language wink. Regards, Cliff -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.develix.com :: Web applications and hosting :: Linux, PostgreSQL and Python specialists :: -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
On Monday 01 August 2005 11:56, Terry Reedy wrote: That is an impossibility. However, there is a middle path between that and no defensive code. In the present case, you appear to acknowledge a known easy way to mis-compile wxWidgets from Dabo's viewpoint. If there is a known easy way to detect that misconfiguration (which I suspect there is), and it is known that someone has tripped over that problem (which it now is), then a nice error message like 'Sorry, Dabo need wxWidgets compiled with the --include_stylized_text option' would certainly be friendlier than a stack trace. OK, that's more of what I had in mind. Truth be told, this is the first time we've run into this, and as a result I'll make the change to that import statement today. We've taken the attitude that when a bug/shortcoming is pointed out, we address it. But one problem with that is when you only have a handful of people actively using and testing it, you limit your potential for discovering problems. If nothing else, this thread has helped by pointing out one such shortcoming. ;-) -- -- Ed Leafe -- http://leafe.com -- http://dabodev.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Cliff Wells wrote: As I mentioned earlier, programming is half brains and half tenacity. +1 QOTY (quote of the year) -- Benji York -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Daniel Dittmar wrote: I see no problem with that. Specially since there are lots of ways to share directories on a network installation. You install it once and it's done. Some on Windows, some on one Linux, some on another Linux with a newer GTK, some want it on their laptops to work on the road ... All of the fixed and network accessible are easily solvable (? Is it correct English?). Corporative environments should also have an upgrade policy, so the new GTK would just exist after testing has been done and this new GTK is certified for the company's apps. For laptops to work on the road there are two options: VPNs and installing it locally. How many laptops to work on the road there will be compared to fixed workstations? We can find several problems, almost all of them can be solved with the admin's creativity. -- Jorge Godoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
On Mon, 2005-08-01 at 13:28 -0300, Jorge Godoy wrote: We can find several problems, almost all of them can be solved with the admin's creativity. import creativity Traceback (most recent call last): File stdin, line 1, in ? ImportError: No module named creativity Nope. Not included with Python. Can't be used. Regards, Cliff -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.develix.com :: Web applications and hosting :: Linux, PostgreSQL and Python specialists :: -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Cliff Wells wrote: I can understand this, but from my experience, their concerns are badly misplaced: I recently wrote a fairly sizable Python app (~8K LOC) that utilized several 3rd party python librarys: wxPython, Twisted, FeedParser, DateUtils and SQLite to name a few off the top of my head (plus I had to repackage libxml and libxslt on OS/X because 10.3 ships with broken versions :P). It ran on Windows and OS/X (and Linux, but that was never deployed as the customer wasn't interested). This was for a *very* large customer and made it to nearly 10,000 desktops. Not one complaint had to do with installation of 3rd party packages. Why? Because I *packaged* it for Actual success stories like this one are often more convincing than general remarks about how any problem is solvable, given enough effort. In short, these people's complaints reveal only two things: 1) they are hopelessly pessimistic, whether out of pure laziness, lack of experience It might be very specific experiences. Many people using third party controls with Visual Basic got burned. endeavor. As I mentioned earlier, programming is half brains and half tenacity. I'd add a bit of gambling, because often, you don't have enough information. Telling what works from your experience adds useful information so that the brain can decide where to invest the tenacity. Daniel -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Cliff Wells wrote: On Mon, 2005-08-01 at 13:28 -0300, Jorge Godoy wrote: We can find several problems, almost all of them can be solved with the admin's creativity. import creativity Traceback (most recent call last): File stdin, line 1, in ? ImportError: No module named creativity Nope. Not included with Python. Can't be used. You haven't installed the package 'admin'. ;-) -- Jorge Godoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Terry Reedy wrote: Ed Leafe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm serious here: I want to know what people consider acceptable for a software package that relies on other packages. To me, acceptability depends on the audience. Do you want to limit Dabo to professional developers comfortable with sometimes cryptic traceback messages or do you want to include people using Python as part of other activities? My concern with putting another layer on top of Python's excellent traceback mechanism is that we could screw up and hide important exceptions, or otherwise make it harder for the seasoned Pythonista to get to the source of the issue. Nothing beats those tracebacks, ugly though they may seem to a newbie... perhaps we need both methods, and to default to the nice error handler. Your idea of checking for common missing pieces or misconfigurations on startup is a great idea though. Also, we do already provide for information and error logs, which get directed to stdout and stderr by default. Perhaps we just need to give slightly higher-level control of them, so that an individual developer can set it and forget it for each individual app. There are other settings as well, such as event logging, that are useful during testing - we should consolidate all these options into a setup screen of some sort. All in good time! -- Paul McNett http://paulmcnett.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
On Mon, 2005-08-01 at 10:57 -0700, Paul McNett wrote: Terry Reedy wrote: Ed Leafe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm serious here: I want to know what people consider acceptable for a software package that relies on other packages. To me, acceptability depends on the audience. Do you want to limit Dabo to professional developers comfortable with sometimes cryptic traceback messages or do you want to include people using Python as part of other activities? My concern with putting another layer on top of Python's excellent traceback mechanism is that we could screw up and hide important exceptions, or otherwise make it harder for the seasoned Pythonista to get to the source of the issue. Nothing beats those tracebacks, ugly though they may seem to a newbie... perhaps we need both methods, and to default to the nice error handler. That sounds great. And fwiw, even seasoned developers like to be pointed directly to the problem if at all possible. For instance, it may be clear from the traceback *what* the error is, but unless you RTFM or are intimately familiar with wx, you may not immediately know how to solve it. Even if the traceback ended with an appropriate link to the FAQ, that would be outstanding. BTW, I'm with Terry: these discussions have definitely convinced me to give Dabo a try. Regards, Cliff -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.develix.com :: Web applications and hosting :: Linux, PostgreSQL and Python specialists :: -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
On Monday 01 August 2005 05:30 am, Ed Leafe wrote: Should we have defensive code for every possible broken installation? We use a lot of the Python standard library modules, many dbapi-compliant modules, and, of course, wxPython. If someone mis-installs one of the pre-requisites, do you expect Dabo to catch that and present you with a diagnostic message? I'm serious here: I want to know what people consider acceptable for a software package that relies on other packages. I don't know. Defense code sounds like a PITA. But maybe give a hint in the INSTALL file, or a link to the proper wxPython install? These are the obvious things that might help people like me at least get to the point where we can see what your software does. Take a look at the SciPy module for good instructions. It would have been hell without the precise list of prerequisites in the INSTALL.txt file. James -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
On Monday 01 August 2005 14:34, James Stroud wrote: I don't know. Defense code sounds like a PITA. But maybe give a hint in the INSTALL file, or a link to the proper wxPython install? These are the obvious things that might help people like me at least get to the point where we can see what your software does. Take a look at the SciPy module for good instructions. It would have been hell without the precise list of prerequisites in the INSTALL.txt file. OK, thanks for the pointer. We appreciate all of these good ideas! -- -- Ed Leafe -- http://leafe.com -- http://dabodev.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
On Monday 01 August 2005 05:59 am, Cliff Wells wrote: But then I'm willing to actually work a little to get what I want. For other it seems they won't be happy unless you drive to their house and install it for them (which only seems fair, cause if you hadn't volunteered to write such crap then they wouldn't have had to be bothered with it in the first place, damn you). Maybe you wouldn't mind tidying up a bit and washing a few dishes while you're at it? Perhaps some of us are writing software with non-developer end-users in mind, and we kind of keep that mentality when evaluating modules our code uses. Do your end-users really want to figure out that the need to and how to install stylized text controls, whatever that is? -- James Stroud UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics Box 951570 Los Angeles, CA 90095 http://www.jamesstroud.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
On Monday 01 August 2005 15:00, James Stroud wrote: Perhaps some of us are writing software with non-developer end-users in mind, and we kind of keep that mentality when evaluating modules our code uses. Do your end-users really want to figure out that the need to and how to install stylized text controls, whatever that is? Of course not. I think that the installation routine for wxPython should automatically include everything, rather than making you specify it explicitly, but I'm not in charge of how wxPython is distributed. Remember, though, that this is only an issue when you build wxPython from source. Those who aren't inclined to go this route have the option of several binaries, all of which include everything. So in a way, I *do* expect someone who has foregone the binary route and chosen the source route to at least read the build instructions. -- -- Ed Leafe -- http://leafe.com -- http://dabodev.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
It is usually referred to as STC. This is from my BUILD.txt instructions for unix builds: 2. To build and install wxWidgets you could just use the make command but there are other libraries besides the main wxWidgets libs that also need to be built so again I make a script to do it all for me so I don't forget anything. This time it is called .make (I use the leading . so when I do ``rm -r *`` in my build dir I don't lose my scripts too.) This is what it looks like:: make $* \ make -C contrib/src/animate $* \ make -C contrib/src/gizmos $* \ make -C contrib/src/stc $* So you just use .make as if it where make, but don't forget to set the execute bit on .make first!:: jw On 8/1/05, James Stroud [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Monday 01 August 2005 12:17 pm, Ed Leafe wrote: So in a way, I *do* expect someone who has foregone the binary route and chosen the source route to at least read the build instructions. There is no mention of stylized text controls in either the wxPython build or install pages of the www documentation. It is probably there, hidden in a very obvious place that someone would be expected to read if they wanted to use it enough to dig for something they don't know there looking for. James -- James Stroud UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics Box 951570 Los Angeles, CA 90095 http://www.jamesstroud.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Ed Leafe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: a lot of the Python standard library modules, many dbapi-compliant modules, and, of course, wxPython. If someone mis-installs one of the pre-requisites, do you expect Dabo to catch that and present you with a diagnostic message? I'm serious here: I want to know what people consider acceptable for a software package that relies on other packages. I seem to be in a minority here but I vote for avoiding such dependencies as much as possible. That's the best way to avoid problems in practice. I'm interested in trying out dabo if it gets tkinter support but life is too short for me to want to mess with wxpython any more, unless I have some more compelling reason. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Jorge Godoy wrote: We can find several problems, almost all of them can be solved with the admin's creativity. You must distinguish between solving technical problems once a course has ben set and choosing such a course in the first place. The latter has to deal also with the risks of the unknown. Of course what is unknown can be influenced somewhat by getting information. Daniel -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
On 01 Aug 2005 12:50:56 -0700, Paul Rubin http://phr.cx@nospam.invalid wrote: I seem to be in a minority here Wow, you finally said something that I agree with! but I vote for avoiding such dependencies as much as possible. This isn't a contest here. Do what you like, and don't expect everyone to share your POV. That's the best way to avoid problems in practice. That's also the best way to avoid benefitting from the creativity and hard work by others. Locking yourself in a room is also the best way to avoid catching illnesses, or having an automobile accident, or getting shot in a drive-by. Unfortunately, you'll miss out on most of what life has to offer. -- # p.d. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Daniel Dittmar wrote: Jorge Godoy wrote: We can find several problems, almost all of them can be solved with the admin's creativity. You must distinguish between solving technical problems once a course has ben set and choosing such a course in the first place. The latter has to deal also with the risks of the unknown. Of course what is unknown can be influenced somewhat by getting information. I agree where you say that lack of information is a risk. But I don't see how it -- lack of information -- wouldn't affect both scenarios. At least, when I'm developing a solution, I have to present a deployment plan and cover the specified cases. If something was not specified or is an exception, then a new action plan is developed and the client is consulted again (after all, if it's his fault there will be extra costs for him; if it's my mistake, then I'll assume the costs). This repeats until all the needs are documented and the code works on them, or exceptions where the code won't work are also documented. Always there's the OK from the client. -- Jorge Godoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Ed Leafe wrote: Should we have defensive code for every possible broken installation? We use a lot of the Python standard library modules, many dbapi-compliant modules, and, of course, wxPython. If someone mis-installs one of the pre-requisites, do you expect Dabo to catch that and present you with a diagnostic message? I'm serious here: I want to know what people consider acceptable for a software package that relies on other packages. Every possible broken installation != checking for missing dependencies. It can be difficult/cumbersome/result in code bloat to constantly check for module A, feature B enabled in module C, etc. Further, you're certainly going to miss some at first. But as bug reports come in (like this one), add them to a list of checks performed in a checkconfig script. This script can be run at installation and/or by the user when something like this goes wrong. You could also have checkconfig print out useful features about the environment it's running in to help make bug reports better. Building something like this takes time, but every minute spent on it now is 10-20 minutes saved in handling the same old bug report in the future. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
On Sat, 2005-07-30 at 20:29 -0700, James Stroud wrote: I am going to go ahead and throw out Dabo with all of the others that claim quick development of an application. You try them and then you get bugs, bugs, bugs. Or they don't compile without 16000 dependencies. Forget it. My advice is to choose something, one thing, that is REAL standard, and in the standard library (e.g. Tkinter). And go for it. Learn it inside and out--it will always be there for you. It is the green, green grass of home, not that greener grass on the other side of the hill. Don't listen to the guys that says this one is crap or that one isn't. Dropping one and learning another is just pain. I think this is a developer trick, to keep you at war with yourself. The more you have internal conflict the more you will be looking for an App framework to solve your inner problems, and that keeps these guys in business--the business of wrecking souls. Then why are you using Python at all? Shouldn't you be in the safe home of Java or Visual Basic, where standards are all you have? -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.develix.com :: Web applications and hosting :: Linux, PostgreSQL and Python specialists :: -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Ed Leafe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am going to go ahead and throw out Dabo with all of the others that claim quick development of an application. You try them and then you get bugs, bugs, bugs. Or they don't compile without 16000 dependencies. Forget it. My advice is to choose something, one thing, that is REAL standard, and in the standard library (e.g. Tkinter). Sorry you feel that way. You'll miss out on really great Python products that aren't in the standard Library, such as Twisted, Zope/Plone, Dabo, and many others. ... Python is a base. You build from there. Those issues about the 1600 dependencies don't apply nearly as much to pure Python modules (e.g. Twisted) as they do to extension modules that require the presence of further stuff on the system. E.g., on Linux, to use wxPython, you need wxWidgets, which needs GTK 1.5, which has been obsolete for years, and there are all sorts of build conflicts when you try to compile this stuff out of the box. I don't know where Dabo fits in. It does sound nice in some regards. Pico Lisp uses an interesting approach to portable GUI's: it includes a socket-based GUI API and a special Java applet that runs in a browser and implements the API. All the issues of dealing with OS-specific window systems go away, as long as you can run a Java-enabled browser and point it at the Pico Lisp application. See: http://www.software-lab.de/down.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Paul Rubin wrote: E.g., on Linux, to use wxPython, you need wxWidgets, which needs GTK 1.5, which has been obsolete for years, Nope. It's on GTK2 now. -- Robert Kern [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the fields of hell where the grass grows high Are the graves of dreams allowed to die. -- Richard Harter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Cliff Wells [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Then why are you using Python at all? Shouldn't you be in the safe home of Java or Visual Basic, where standards are all you have? I don't know about VB but Java does a much better job of supporting standards than Python does. Python's advantage is in being a much more pleasant language to code in. It would benefit greatly from also doing a better job implementing standards. Many or most of the Python library modules that purport to implement standards just sort of get halfway there and then stop. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Robert Kern [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Linux, to use wxPython, you need wxWidgets, which needs GTK 1.5, which has been obsolete for years, Nope. It's on GTK2 now. Oh, that's recent then. I might try it again in this case. It's still an enormous piece of code. I can't understand why it should need to be so bloated. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
On Sun, 2005-07-31 at 00:32 -0700, Paul Rubin wrote: Those issues about the 1600 dependencies don't apply nearly as much to pure Python modules (e.g. Twisted) as they do to extension modules that require the presence of further stuff on the system. E.g., on Linux, to use wxPython, you need wxWidgets, which needs GTK 1.5, which has been obsolete for years, and there are all sorts of build conflicts when you try to compile this stuff out of the box. I don't know where Dabo fits in. It does sound nice in some regards. wxWidgets/wxPython hasn't required GTK 1.x in quite a long time. Please get your facts straight. Also, the 1600 dependencies you complain about come standard on any modern Linux system or can be easily installed with the system's package management tool. I've also built wxPython from source on OS/X, which, while orders of magnitude more difficult than on Linux, still wasn't that hard. I'm seriously getting the impression you are criticizing something you've never even tried. Pico Lisp uses an interesting approach to portable GUI's: it includes a socket-based GUI API and a special Java applet that runs in a browser and implements the API. All the issues of dealing with OS-specific window systems go away, as long as you can run a Java-enabled browser and point it at the Pico Lisp application. See: http://www.software-lab.de/down.html It sounded interesting until you said Java Applet. Talk about causing deployment issues... Cliff -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.develix.com :: Web applications and hosting :: Linux, PostgreSQL and Python specialists :: -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
On Sun, 2005-07-31 at 01:03 -0700, Paul Rubin wrote: Cliff Wells [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Then why are you using Python at all? Shouldn't you be in the safe home of Java or Visual Basic, where standards are all you have? I don't know about VB but Java does a much better job of supporting standards than Python does. Python's advantage is in being a much more pleasant language to code in. It would benefit greatly from also doing a better job implementing standards. Many or most of the Python library modules that purport to implement standards just sort of get halfway there and then stop. Well, this is a problem with open source in general. Take a look at sourceforget and you'll see hundreds if not thousands of packages that never even made it out of planning stages. It might be nice to see some things standardized in Python, but I'm unconvinced that the GUI toolkit is one of them. Different GUI toolkits vary widely in flexibility, ease-of-use (and this varies on who you are), target platform, etc. For instance, I might be inclined to write a GUI in pygame, if the particular app I'm writing required it. Personally, while I prefer wxPython in general, I *like* having options for those times when wxPython simply isn't the right tool for the job. When all you have is a TkHammer... Cliff -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.develix.com :: Web applications and hosting :: Linux, PostgreSQL and Python specialists :: -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
On Sun, 2005-07-31 at 18:00 +, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 00:13:18 -0400, Ed Leafe [EMAIL PROTECTED] declaimed the following in comp.lang.python: Sorry you feel that way. You'll miss out on really great Python products that aren't in the standard Library, such as Twisted, Zope/Plone, Dabo, and many others. Zope/Plone are applications in their own right... They aren't designed to be plug-ins for the development of Python programs. Yes, they USE Python as the runtime basis but they are complete as is -- one can install Plone and never have to know about Python (be a touch limited, but it can be used). In a way, Python is part of the Zope/Plone standard library, not the other way around. Can that be said for the others? Twisted, for one, can't be used without knowing Python. In fact, without knowing Python quite well. For that matter, it can't easily be used wink. Cliff (who has a love/hate relationship with Twisted) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.develix.com :: Web applications and hosting :: Linux, PostgreSQL and Python specialists :: -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Cliff Wells [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: wxWidgets/wxPython hasn't required GTK 1.x in quite a long time. Please get your facts straight. It did last time I tried installing it, which was maybe 3-6 months ago. Someone posted that it had been updated recently. Also, the 1600 dependencies you complain about come standard on any modern Linux system or can be easily installed with the system's package management tool. I've also built wxPython from source on OS/X, which, while orders of magnitude more difficult than on Linux, still wasn't that hard. I'm seriously getting the impression you are criticizing something you've never even tried. I spent several hours trying to install wxPython on Linux without success (a lot of that was figuring out that some undefined symbol it was complaining about was some GTK 1.5 function that had didn't exist in GTK 2.1). As I remember, wxPython itself compiled without too much trouble but wxWidgets and/or GTK 1.5 (once I got a copy of that) had some problems. I decided I just didn't care enough to keep pursuing it. http://www.software-lab.de/down.html It sounded interesting until you said Java Applet. Talk about causing deployment issues... Yeah, I don't have Java in my browser, but it's very widely deployed. For most of the stuff I do though, a plain HTML interface is fine. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
On Sun, 2005-07-31 at 16:22 -0700, Paul Rubin wrote: Cliff Wells [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: wxWidgets/wxPython hasn't required GTK 1.x in quite a long time. Please get your facts straight. It did last time I tried installing it, which was maybe 3-6 months ago. Someone posted that it had been updated recently. Looking on SourceForge, I see that 2.4.2.4 had GTK2 builds and it's dated 2003-10-01. I also know that GTK2 support came well before this and was in fact a build option long before Robin made an official release. Unfortunately SF doesn't go back any further than this and I don't have time to research it further. Nevertheless it's provable that wxPython had GTK2 releases almost 2 years ago. http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=10718package_id=10559 I spent several hours trying to install wxPython on Linux without success (a lot of that was figuring out that some undefined symbol it was complaining about was some GTK 1.5 function that had didn't exist in GTK 2.1). As I remember, wxPython itself compiled without too much trouble but wxWidgets and/or GTK 1.5 (once I got a copy of that) had some problems. I decided I just didn't care enough to keep pursuing it. I've seen a few people run into issues like this, usually as the result of autoconf/automake finding obsolete libraries on a system (e.g. if you upgraded your redhat from 7.3 to 9.0 and stale libraries were left around). This isn't specific to wx, I've seen similar problems with other software (PostgreSQL being a common one). They can usually be fixed, but it does take some sleuthing. Still, can't really blame wx for this as it's more the distro's fault for not having good update/packaging systems. http://www.software-lab.de/down.html It sounded interesting until you said Java Applet. Talk about causing deployment issues... Yeah, I don't have Java in my browser, but it's very widely deployed. For most of the stuff I do though, a plain HTML interface is fine. Yah, I think Java is the one thing I've never had work satisfactorily (read without crashing or failing to load altogether) on Fedora/Redhat. For a while I had it working with the JVM from IBM, but those happy days are long gone. I now simply ignore apps written in Java. Regards, Cliff -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.develix.com :: Web applications and hosting :: Linux, PostgreSQL and Python specialists :: -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
OK. I am open to new things and I am definitely open to being wrong. So lets try dabo (results below--how did I know this would happen?). This demonstration is not to pick on the dabo people (I'm sure they mean well), but to give an idea of what I face EVERY time I try to install some new, great, python module. Now the last thing I want to do is to go on a hunt for the source of this error--and fix it, just to find another a little later and another and another--without an inkling of why, in real world practicality, dabo would be so much greater than anything else. So you can see why I stick with one good thing. Its not that I don't want to learn or I am not open, etc. Its just that things don't usually work out of the box, and, to quote GnR, I ain't got time for the pain. Incidentally, I'm not really interested in knowing what is wrong here, frankly I haven't even looked at the output except that I notice that it is a stack trace, so don't bother telling me how simple it is to fix and that I should know this or that. You might be right, but I simply don't care at this point. Sorry dabo guys. You are only one of many. James Python 2.3.4 (#4, Oct 25 2004, 21:40:10) [GCC 3.3.2 (Mandrake Linux 10.0 3.3.2-6mdk)] on linux2 Type help, copyright, credits or license for more information. py import MySQLdb py import wx py import dabo Dabo Info Log: Sun Jul 31 16:51:08 2005: No default UI set. (DABO_DEFAULT_UI) py dabo.ui.loadUI(wx) Traceback (most recent call last): File /data10/users/jstroud/Programs/lib/python2.3/site-packages/dabo/ui/__init__.py, line 43, in loadUI exec(from %s import * % mods[typ], globals()) File string, line 1, in ? File /data10/users/jstroud/Programs/lib/python2.3/site-packages/dabo/ui/uiwx/__init__.py, line 84, in ? import dShell File /data10/users/jstroud/Programs/lib/python2.3/site-packages/dabo/ui/uiwx/dShell.py, line 1, in ? import wx, wx.py File /data10/users/jstroud/Programs/lib/python2.3/site-packages/wx-2.6-gtk2-ansi/wx/py/__init__.py, line 8, in ? import crust File /data10/users/jstroud/Programs/lib/python2.3/site-packages/wx-2.6-gtk2-ansi/wx/py/crust.py, line 14, in ? import editwindow File /data10/users/jstroud/Programs/lib/python2.3/site-packages/wx-2.6-gtk2-ansi/wx/py/editwindow.py, line 8, in ? from wx import stc File /data10/users/jstroud/Programs/lib/python2.3/site-packages/wx-2.6-gtk2-ansi/wx/stc.py, line 10, in ? import _stc ImportError: No module named _stc False py -- James Stroud UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics Box 951570 Los Angeles, CA 90095 http://www.jamesstroud.com/ - The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice, have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another. In the case of a word like democracy, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides. It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it: consequently the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using the word if it were tied down to any one meaning. - George Orwell -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
James Stroud wrote: /data10/users/jstroud/Programs/lib/python2.3/site-packages/wx-2.6-gtk2-ansi/wx/py/editwindow.py, line 8, in ? from wx import stc File /data10/users/jstroud/Programs/lib/python2.3/site-packages/wx-2.6-gtk2-ansi/wx/stc.py, line 10, in ? import _stc ImportError: No module named _stc You can't blame Dabo for this one. Your wxPython install is broken. -- Robert Kern [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the fields of hell where the grass grows high Are the graves of dreams allowed to die. -- Richard Harter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Cliff Wells [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It did last time I tried installing it, which was maybe 3-6 months ago. Someone posted that it had been updated recently. Looking on SourceForge, I see that 2.4.2.4 had GTK2 builds and it's dated 2003-10-01. That's sort of interesting. I think I downloaded whatever was on wxpython.org. I also know that GTK2 support came well before this and was in fact a build option long before Robin made an official release. Unfortunately SF doesn't go back any further than this and I don't have time to research it further. Nevertheless it's provable that wxPython had GTK2 releases almost 2 years ago. http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=10718package_id=10559 I spent several hours trying to install wxPython on Linux without success (a lot of that was figuring out that some undefined symbol it I've seen a few people run into issues like this, usually as the result of autoconf/automake finding obsolete libraries on a system (e.g. if you upgraded your redhat from 7.3 to 9.0 and stale libraries were left around). No this was definitely a GTK issue. I avoid OS upgrades because of issues like what you describe. If I want a new OS, I buy a new hard drive and install the new OS from scratch, or even buy a new computer. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
On Sunday 31 July 2005 05:14 pm, Robert Kern wrote: You can't blame Dabo for this one. Your wxPython install is broken. Yes, but my Tkinter install works just fine. -- James Stroud UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics Box 951570 Los Angeles, CA 90095 http://www.jamesstroud.com/ - -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
On Sun, 2005-07-31 at 17:16 -0700, Paul Rubin wrote: Cliff Wells [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It did last time I tried installing it, which was maybe 3-6 months ago. Someone posted that it had been updated recently. Looking on SourceForge, I see that 2.4.2.4 had GTK2 builds and it's dated 2003-10-01. That's sort of interesting. I think I downloaded whatever was on wxpython.org. Usually there will be a link to a couple different builds on wxpython.org. I can see where it would be pretty easy to grab the wrong one. No this was definitely a GTK issue. I avoid OS upgrades because of issues like what you describe. If I want a new OS, I buy a new hard drive and install the new OS from scratch, or even buy a new computer. I usually keep /home on a separate partition. That lets me wipe / and do a fresh install without affecting my personal stuff. I will say that using apt/yum to upgrade works pretty well these days, as long as the jump isn't too far (i.e. more than one major release). Still, I too prefer the fresh install, just out of paranoia probably. Cliff -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.develix.com :: Web applications and hosting :: Linux, PostgreSQL and Python specialists :: -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
Cliff Wells [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That's sort of interesting. I think I downloaded whatever was on wxpython.org. Usually there will be a link to a couple different builds on wxpython.org. I can see where it would be pretty easy to grab the wrong one. IIRC the problem I had wasn't really with wxpython, it was with wxwidgets. I can't say for sure that I didn't make an error choosing a download but I thought I was sort of careful. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Dabo in 30 seconds?
Ed Leafe wrote in response to the Python vs. Access VBA thread: You might want to look at Dabo, which is a database application framework for Python. In about 30 seconds you can create an application that queries a database, displays the results, and allows for editing/updating/inserting/deleting records. This is a nice pitch. Can you provide simple, example code that does this? As a non-professional programmer (I write to create my own business tools, and for the enjoyment, but no one pays for my code) the ability to generate quick db apps like this would constitute a real win, even if the 30 seconds is a Guido 30 seconds and it takes me 5 minutes (which might underestimate Guido by some magnitudes). We're becoming so rich with competing frameworks that, not having the time to evaluate them, I have no single framework in my toolbox I am fluent with. Dabo seems like it might be worth my scarce time to learn; if I can really create a db app in 30 seconds, then I will probably do so, and get deeper into Dabo as I use it. Might become a Dabo Guy. :-) I suspect there may be others in my shoes, both inside and outside the Python community. If I tell such a person Oh, you have the choice of many database application frameworks in Python such a person's eyes would glass open; if I show them 30 seconds of clean simple code that does as you say, such a framework might not only get more widespread adoption, Python could gain wider adoption as well. Best regards, Eric -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
On Saturday 30 July 2005 06:16 pm, EP wrote: Ed Leafe wrote in response to the Python vs. Access VBA thread: You might want to look at Dabo, which is a database application framework for Python. In about 30 seconds you can create an application that queries a database, displays the results, and allows for editing/updating/inserting/deleting records. This is a nice pitch. Can you provide simple, example code that does this? As a non-professional programmer (I write to create my own business tools, and for the enjoyment, but no one pays for my code) the ability to generate quick db apps like this would constitute a real win, even if the 30 seconds is a Guido 30 seconds and it takes me 5 minutes (which might underestimate Guido by some magnitudes). I am going to go ahead and throw out Dabo with all of the others that claim quick development of an application. You try them and then you get bugs, bugs, bugs. Or they don't compile without 16000 dependencies. Forget it. My advice is to choose something, one thing, that is REAL standard, and in the standard library (e.g. Tkinter). And go for it. Learn it inside and out--it will always be there for you. It is the green, green grass of home, not that greener grass on the other side of the hill. Don't listen to the guys that says this one is crap or that one isn't. Dropping one and learning another is just pain. I think this is a developer trick, to keep you at war with yourself. The more you have internal conflict the more you will be looking for an App framework to solve your inner problems, and that keeps these guys in business--the business of wrecking souls. Go with yourself. James -- James Stroud UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics Box 951570 Los Angeles, CA 90095 http://www.jamesstroud.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
James Stroud [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My advice is to choose something, one thing, that is REAL standard, and in the standard library (e.g. Tkinter). And go for it. Learn it inside and out--it will always be there for you. It is the green, green grass of home, not that greener grass on the other side of the hill. This is good advice. I hope the stdlib gets something better than tkinter added to it, but until they're actually in the stdlib, all those alternative toolkits like wxpython are of limited interest. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Dabo in 30 seconds?
On Saturday 30 July 2005 23:29, James Stroud wrote: I am going to go ahead and throw out Dabo with all of the others that claim quick development of an application. You try them and then you get bugs, bugs, bugs. Or they don't compile without 16000 dependencies. Forget it. My advice is to choose something, one thing, that is REAL standard, and in the standard library (e.g. Tkinter). Sorry you feel that way. You'll miss out on really great Python products that aren't in the standard Library, such as Twisted, Zope/Plone, Dabo, and many others. Python is a base. You build from there. -- -- Ed Leafe -- http://leafe.com -- http://dabodev.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
