Re: Guido at Google
Robert Kern [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [...] No, it's not a silly idea. Dean Baker, the Co-Director the Center for Economic and Policy Research, has proposed for the U.S. government to establish a Software Developer's Corps. For $2 billion per year, it could fund about 20,000 developers to make open source software. Much of that software would be directly usable by local, state, and federal governments and thus pay back some, all, or more of the investment (Dean estimates more). In addition, the general public also benefits directly. http://www.cepr.net/publications/windows_2005_10.pdf Given the current balance of power in the USA government, I assume this proposal is aimed at = 2008 ;-) John -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steve Holden wrote: Far answers to this and all other (as far as I can determine) hypothetical questions please refer to the license. But note that no OSI certified open source license will grant the right to use a trademark. You gain trademark rights by having control over the quality of the described quantity. If you give up control (which the OSD requires), you cannot grant the right to use the trademark, or, if you do, then you will lose the ability to enforce the trademark. If by the OSD you are referring to the open source definition at http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php there is nothing in there about trademarks referring to open source technology. Python is released under an OSI-approved license, but the Python Software Foundation owns and retains the rights to the Python trademark. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
This topic is discussed on Slashdot too: http://slashdot.org/articles/05/12/22/1832226.shtml?tid=217 There are some interesting comments, for example from curious Java or Perl programmers, etc. Some of them can probably appreciate this: http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/typecheck Among the noise there is some signal too, there are lists of some problems of Python. Taking some of those things seriously can be useful, I think. Bye, bearophile -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Herds of cats (was: Guido at Google)
Cameron Laird wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Nicola Musatti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: . Ah, the closed source days! Back then you could just buy the company and be done with it. Now you have to chase developers one by one all over the world... ;-) . You propellor-heads (I write that in all fondness, Nicola) are all laughing, but I'm certain that the right elaboration of that proposition could make it into the *Harvard Business Review* (or *IBM Systems Journal*, which seems to have tilted irreversibly in that direction). I was only half joking, actually. Compare Python to Delphi. If a company wanted to acquire control over Delphi, they'd try and buy Borland; to acquire control over Python what are they to do? Well, hiring Guido and Alex is probably a step in the right direction ;-) but would it be enough? Programming languages are not the best example, but if you change it to Mozilla and Opera my argument makes more sense. Actually, there's already a considerable literature on how pro- grammers are like other nasty professionals in exhibiting more loyalty to their community than to their employers. Generalize as desired. Well, it's still better than PHB's who, in my experience, are only loyal to themselves and in general have more power to put other people's jobs at risk than programmers. Cheers, Nicola Musatti -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Of the three languages, Java, C# and Python, Python is my pet. c# is very 90tyish and VS is showing it's age reminding me of Borland's old c++ IDE. Python represents the new direction in program language development and has the needed flexibility. I look forward to Google making Python, or it's sister into the next industry standard. With 30 years of programming behind me, I have always been fascinated by the gap between practice, wisdom and formal programming language development, Python has narrowed the gap better than most. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
On 22 Dec 2005 23:06:43 -0800, Anand [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My newsreader automatically (and configurably) generates the above line. Has a new reader come into frequent use that by default does not? ISTM that I've seen a lot of unattributed quotes posted recently. It's like having James Bond as your very own personal body guard ;) That is such a nice quote that I am going to put it in my email signature ! :) -Anand Maybe look into fixing the above problem while you're at it? Regards, Bengt Richter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Anand wrote: It's like having James Bond as your very own personal body guard ;) That is such a nice quote that I am going to put it in my email signature ! :) -Anand Go right ahead. Perhaps we should do one for Perl too: It's like having King Kong as your very own personal body guard ;) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Greg Stein wrote: Guido would acknowledge a query, but never announce it. That's not his style. This should have a positive impact on Python. His job description has a *very* significant portion of his time dedicated specifically to working on Python. (much more than his previous one day a week jobs have given him) Well, given that he's going to be spending his 80% time working on python, it makes one wonder how he'll be spending his 20% time :-) Dave -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
rbt wrote: Go right ahead. Perhaps we should do one for Perl too: It's like having King Kong as your very own personal body guard ;) Good analogy: You know, they call Perl the eight-hundred-pound gorilla of scripting languages. Although most of the time, it would be a a very unsuitable body guard (can't get into a car, into a plane, go to a party, etc..). OTHOH James Bond is always perfect. He would sleep with your wife though... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Luis M. González wrote: rbt wrote: Go right ahead. Perhaps we should do one for Perl too: It's like having King Kong as your very own personal body guard ;) Good analogy: You know, they call Perl the eight-hundred-pound gorilla of scripting languages. Absolutely. It's big, hairy, smelly, a bit dense at times and always difficult to communicate with, but by god it gets the job done albeit in a messy sort of way ;) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Steve Holden wrote: Far answers to this and all other (as far as I can determine) hypothetical questions please refer to the license. But note that no OSI certified open source license will grant the right to use a trademark. You gain trademark rights by having control over the quality of the described quantity. If you give up control (which the OSD requires), you cannot grant the right to use the trademark, or, if you do, then you will lose the ability to enforce the trademark. In the case of derived names like JPython, or IronPython, the PSF would have to claim in court that everyone knows that Python is only and exactly Python, and that anything with prefixes or suffixes may be derived from the PSF-copyrighted work, but is not an official product of the PSF. That's reasonable, but harder to prove than insisting that no computer language may contain Python in its name without being the PSF-copyrighted work. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anand wrote: This is very good news. I wish Guido all the best! I wonder if this has got to do something with Microsoft developing IronPython. Incidentellay it is reaching a 1.0 release pretty soon. Perhaps Google has some cards up their sleeve. What other best way to counter this than to hire the big fish himself ? :-) I wonder how high a particular programming language is in the prioirty of either organisations of such size ? Interesting question. I would expect, without any inside knowledge, that Java, for example, is pretty high in the priority of an organization (guess which one?) whose size (number of employees) is, I believe, quite a bit larger than Google's. Microsoft used to have a particular programming language (Visual Basic) in quite a strategic role in their array of products, and although you'd now have to consider a small set instead (including C#) it seems to me they still do. As for Google, well, I believe there is exactly one (1) person you'll find identified on the web as both a Google Fellow AND a Google vice-president, and his page from when he was a professor at UCSB (before he joined Google) is still on the web, too: guess what field his research was in...? But I guess this is about programming languages in general, rather than a particular one (and indeed, neither MS, nor Google, nor the other organization above mentioned, have ever been single-programming-language cultures [net of the very early times when Basic was MS's only product, of course;-)]...). Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Alex Martelli wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anand wrote: This is very good news. I wish Guido all the best! I wonder if this has got to do something with Microsoft developing IronPython. Incidentellay it is reaching a 1.0 release pretty soon. Perhaps Google has some cards up their sleeve. What other best way to counter this than to hire the big fish himself ? :-) I wonder how high a particular programming language is in the prioirty of either organisations of such size ? Interesting question. I would expect, without any inside knowledge, that Java, for example, is pretty high in the priority of an organization (guess which one?) whose size (number of employees) is, I believe, quite a bit larger than Google's. Microsoft used to have a particular programming language (Visual Basic) in quite a strategic role in their array of products, and although you'd now have to consider a small set instead (including C#) it seems to me they still do. As for Google, well, I believe there is exactly one (1) person you'll find identified on the web as both a Google Fellow AND a Google vice-president, and his page from when he was a professor at UCSB (before he joined Google) is still on the web, too: guess what field his research was in...? But I guess this is about programming languages in general, rather than a particular one (and indeed, neither MS, nor Google, nor the other organization above mentioned, have ever been single-programming-language cultures [net of the very early times when Basic was MS's only product, of course;-)]...). The question was specifically to the previous question it is responsed to and if its context or meaning have been read otherwise(intended or not intended), there isn't much I can do. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Ilias Lazaridis wrote: Greg Stein wrote: Yeah... we recognize that we could certainly open-source more of our software. While we've released some stuff (code.google.com/projects.html), there is a LOT more that we want to http://code.google.com/projects.html do. Getting engineers' 20% time to do that has been difficult. Thankfully, we know how to fix that and got the okay/headcount to make it happen. (IOW, it isn't a lack of desire, but making it happen) When a company like Google open's sources, this means simply nothing more than: - the software is not critical to their business (e.g. core-software) - the internal resources cannot ensure further development See IBM, SUN and others, which have done the same thing. But even if we haven't been able to open-source as much code as we'd like, we *have* been trying to be very supportive of the community. Between the Summer of Code and direct cash contributions, we've provided a LOT of support to a large number of open source organizations. I hope that you invest some time to _organize_ the Open Source Projects. Starting with Python and it's project-structure (e.g. build-process) and documentation (e.g. ensuring standard-terminology is kept, like class) e.g.: where can I find an UML diagramm of the Python Object Model? Even Ruby has one: http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/ruby/TheRubyObjectModel.png - And we have a couple other ideas on how to help the open source community. We're working on it! The open-source-community can help Google, too! E.g.: Google needs an public Issue-Tracking-System. I needed around 30 emails and 2 months until google-groups-support removed a bug which broke(!) existent links to google archives. (cannot find the topic. Simply search your support-archives to see the desaster). With publicity, the team would have removed the bug within one week. Cheers, -g And finally: If Mr. van Rossum is now at Google, and Python is essentially a Mr. van Rossum based product, then most possibly the evolution-speed of Python will decrease even more (Google will implement things needed by Google - van Rossum will follow, so simple). I mean, when will this language finally become a _really_ fully Object-Oriented one, with a clean reflective Meta-Model? Thus I can see Python pass this this _simple_ evaluation (which it does not pass in its current implementation): http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/python.html - I have around one year to await. You don't appear to understand Open Source very well. Python is the way it is because we, the community, *like* it that way. It evolves in directions that we (all) decide it is to evolve. Guido is our leader in this because we trust him and *choose* to follow his lead. If you want something changed you don't wait and you don't whine, you join the community with a reasoned argument for why your idea would make it a better language in *our* eyes. So how about it... What's your complaint, what's your solution, and why should we listen? Gary Herron -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Gary Herron wrote: You don't appear to understand Open Source very well. Python is the way it is because we, the community, *like* it that way. It evolves in directions that we (all) decide it is to evolve. Guido is our leader in this because we trust him and *choose* to follow his lead. If you want something changed you don't wait and you don't whine, you join the community with a reasoned argument for why your idea would make it a better language in *our* eyes. So how about it... What's your complaint, what's your solution, and why should we listen? Well, this may be the CPython way of open source but I don't know if that is Open source in general. Another way is that if someone(or group) don't like the current state of a project, they fork. I don't know if that is possible in the context of python, and programming language in general. Can it still be called python ? I am not saying that it is a better way(my guess is not) but just that the first sentence seems to be overly generalized. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... I wonder if this has got to do something with Microsoft developing IronPython. Incidentellay it is reaching a 1.0 release pretty soon. Perhaps Google has some cards up their sleeve. What other best way to counter this than to hire the big fish himself ? :-) ... I wonder how high a particular programming language is in the prioirty of either organisations of such size ? ... Interesting question. I would expect, without any inside knowledge, ... single-programming-language cultures [net of the very early times when Basic was MS's only product, of course;-)]...). The question was specifically to the previous question it is responsed to and if its context or meaning have been read otherwise(intended or not intended), there isn't much I can do. The funny idea that Google would hire Guido to counter Microsoft's hiring of Jim Hugunin 1+ year ago didn't particularly need debunking, but you chose to comment on it with a question which I thought was worth answering, since you chose to phrase it so very generally, and since it appeared to be intended as a rhetorical question hinting at what I consider a wrong idea in the general case. Far from there not being much you can do, if you're interested in avoiding possible misunderstandings you can easily choose to express yourself more precisely and specifically, rather than vaguely and generically... Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 21:47:29 -0500, Peter Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bengt Richter wrote: [roughly an inch is not exactly 25.4mm] At least according to my dusty 37th Edition Handbook of Chemistry and Physics (c) 1955. Maybe things have changed since then ;-) Wikipedia concurs with Jim, though it says the official change dates from 1958. Better throw that old book out, as it's also likely to be missing any reference to useful elements such as Lawrencium (1961), and Hassium (1984), not to mention Ununnilium, Ununumium and Ununbium (94, 94, 96 respectively) or the most recently discovered element, which the PSU tried to supp I had been using 25.4mm/inch myself, but decided to look it up, and found that I had been using the wrong value -- now actually proving to be right after all, after the definition change of 1958(1959?). Google found an NIST page: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/appenB.html Where it says: B.6 U.S. survey foot and mile The U. S. Metric Law of 1866 gave the relationship 1 m = 39.37 in (in is the unit symbol for the inch). From 1893 until 1959, the yard was defined as being exactly equal to (3600/3937) m, and thus the foot was defined as being exactly equal to (1200/3937) m. In 1959 the definition of the yard was changed to bring the U.S. yard and the yard used in other countries into agreement. Since then the yard has been defined as exactly equal to 0.9144 m, and thus the foot has been defined as exactly equal to 0.3048 m. At the same time it was decided that any data expressed in feet derived from geodetic surveys within the United States would continue to bear the relationship as defined in 1893, namely, 1 ft = (1200/ 3937) m (ft is the unit symbol for the foot). The name of this foot is U.S. survey foot, while the name of the new foot defined in 1959 is international foot. The two are related to each other through the expression 1 international foot = 0.999 998 U.S. survey foot exactly. In Sec. B.8 and Sec. B.9, the factors given are based on the international foot unless otherwise indicated. Users of this /Guide/ may also find the following summary of exact relationships helpful, where for convenience the symbols /ft/ and /mi,/ that is, ft and mi in italic type, indicate that it is the /U.S. survey foot/ or /U.S. survey mile/ that is meant rather than the international foot (ft) or international mile (mi), and where rd is the unit symbol for the rod and fur is the unit symbol for the furlong. 1 /ft/ = (1200/3937) m 1 ft = 0.3048 m 1 ft = 0.999 998 /ft/ 1 rd, pole, or perch = 16 1/2 /ft/ 40 rd = 1 fur = 660 /ft/ 8 fur = 1 U.S. survey mile (also called statute mile) = 1 /mi/ = 5280 /ft/ 1 fathom = 6 /ft/ 1 international mile = 1 mi = 5280 ft 272 1/4 /ft/**2 = 1 rd**2 160 rd**2 = 1 acre = 43 560ft**2 640 acre = 1 /mi/**2 (I changed italics to be indicated by /italic/ slashes, and superscript by **, as well as changing special characters for a quarter and half to 1/4 and 1/2. Hope I didn't typo ;-) Anyway, 25.4 mm/inch it is. Nice to revert to that, after an unsettling diversion ;-) NIST ought to have it right, right? Or is there an intelligent design version now? ;-/ Regards, Bengt Richter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Alex Martelli wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... I wonder if this has got to do something with Microsoft developing IronPython. Incidentellay it is reaching a 1.0 release pretty soon. Perhaps Google has some cards up their sleeve. What other best way to counter this than to hire the big fish himself ? :-) ... I wonder how high a particular programming language is in the prioirty of either organisations of such size ? ... Interesting question. I would expect, without any inside knowledge, ... single-programming-language cultures [net of the very early times when Basic was MS's only product, of course;-)]...). The question was specifically to the previous question it is responsed to and if its context or meaning have been read otherwise(intended or not intended), there isn't much I can do. The funny idea that Google would hire Guido to counter Microsoft's hiring of Jim Hugunin 1+ year ago didn't particularly need debunking, but you chose to comment on it with a question which I thought was worth answering, since you chose to phrase it so very generally, and since it appeared to be intended as a rhetorical question hinting at what I consider a wrong idea in the general case. Far from there not being much you can do, if you're interested in avoiding possible misunderstandings you can easily choose to express yourself more precisely and specifically, rather than vaguely and generically... As I said, I cannot do anything in how you want to intepret that and how you can read it as rhetorical question(could be just that it is from me), there really is nothing I can do other changing the mail name which I am intended to. What is your meaning of wrong idea in the general case ? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... I wonder how high a particular programming language is in the prioirty of either organisations of such size ? ... from me), there really is nothing I can do other changing the mail name which I am intended to. Sorry, can't parse this (I doubt it's English). What is your meaning of wrong idea in the general case ? In the general case, it's pretty general;-). In the specific case of your question above quoted (interpreting the mis-spelled words and grammatical errors to the best of my modest ability), reading it as rhetorical means it's in fact intended as a statement (that a particular programming language cannot have high priority for organizations of size similar to MS's and Google's), and such a statement is incorrect (as I tried showing with several examples displaying particular programming languages having high strategical priorities for organizations with many thousands of employees, including one with more personnel [larger size] than Google's). An example of rhetorical question: Do you really think that a specific technology [including a software one, such as a programming language] cannot have, in certain cases, *extremely high* strategic priority for organizations with thousands of employees? In this example, the question is phrased to hint at how silly such an opinion would be, and therefore imply that you can't really think that (and must have ulterior motives for so suggesting, etc etc). Rhetorical questions are a perfectly legitimate style of writing (although, like all stylistic embellishments, they can be overused, and can be made much less effective if murkily or fuzzily phrased), of course. Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nicola Musatti wrote: By the way, I hear that you've become collegues also with Matt Austern, formerly of Apple, and Danny Thorpe, formerly of Borland. I guess we mere mortals don't stand a chance of being hired, but if the trend continues there are going to be a lot of very interesting positions opening everywhere else :-) Ha! I'm still trying to figure out who let me in. Everyone has some chance. Of course, I'm going on vacation next week and there was talk about a one-way ticket to Mexico. The real question is will they let me *back* in? :-) I would be careful coming back across the border. I heard that the PSU -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:30:03 -0700 (MST), Jim Benson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, Bengt Richter wrote: For Americans: 15 meters is roughly 50 feet. Google can do that too, of course. wink http://www.google.com/search?q=convert+15+meters+to+feet (49.2125984 feet to be more precise) Actually that looks like it's based on the approximation of 25.4 mm/inch, whereas I believe the legally defined US conversion is 39.3700 inches/meter. They're close. British is 39.3701 for some reason. At least according to my dusty 37th Edition Handbook of Chemistry and Physics (c) 1955. Maybe things have changed since then ;-) Actually they did change...My 54th edition lists the change that as of July 1 1959, by definition, 1 inch is exactly 25.4 mm. So I found, which makes me happy, because I had been assuming 25.4 for a long time. (I'm not happy about saying I believe the legally defined conversion... since I had only just tried to verify 25.4 and found that I was wrong. I guess something told me to hedge with that maybe ;-) FWIW, my first reference was my trusty old Random House American College Dictionary (that I used in high school) dictionary, which also says 39.37 in/meter. But it's copyrighted 1949. They used to make real reference books with good paper ;-) Regards, Bengt Richter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anand wrote: This is very good news. I wish Guido all the best! I wonder if this has got to do something with Microsoft developing IronPython. Incidentellay it is reaching a 1.0 release pretty soon. Perhaps Google has some cards up their sleeve. What other best way to counter this than to hire the big fish himself ? :-) I wonder how high a particular programming language is in the prioirty of either organisations of such size ? I do not know how badly Google needs a particular programming language Python, but in that I believe the IT world at large could really use Python, more Python, both as it exists and as it might evolve to be, I would like to mention that Python, the language, could really use a high profile industry champion. Java = Sun .Net = Microsoft C# = Microsoft Linux = too many big name IT companies to mention Python = ? These kind of alliances may not improve the bytecode, but they sure influence what programmers get to use day in and day out. Congrats, Guido. Thanks for Python and may your future at Google be bright. EP -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Alex Martelli wrote: In the general case, it's pretty general;-). In the specific case of your question above quoted (interpreting the mis-spelled words and grammatical errors to the best of my modest ability), reading it as rhetorical means it's in fact intended as a statement (that a particular programming language cannot have high priority for organizations of size similar to MS's and Google's), and such a statement is incorrect (as I tried showing with several examples displaying particular programming languages having high strategical priorities for organizations with many thousands of employees, including one with more personnel [larger size] than Google's). So exactly how high is python in Google's priority list ? Or in other words, if python is in a stand still as it is now, what would be the impact to Google ? As an outsider, I can only base on public info, like a press release mentioning Guido has been hired. An example of rhetorical question: Do you really think that a specific technology [including a software one, such as a programming language] cannot have, in certain cases, *extremely high* strategic priority for organizations with thousands of employees? In this example, the question is phrased to hint at how silly such an opinion would be, and therefore imply that you can't really think that (and must have ulterior motives for so suggesting, etc etc). Rhetorical questions are a perfectly legitimate style of writing (although, like all stylistic embellishments, they can be overused, and can be made much less effective if murkily or fuzzily phrased), of course. Surprisingly, I don't see this as an rhetorical question at all. It is quite netural to me as a I don't agree with you without indication of silliness, just a style of writing. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
EP wrote: Congrats, Guido. Thanks for Python and may your future at Google be bright. Congrats to BDFL too--may the future of his and his creation be bright indeed! Ray EP -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Greg Stein wrote: Yeah... we recognize that we could certainly open-source more of our software. While we've released some stuff (code.google.com/projects.html), there is a LOT more that we want to do. Getting engineers' 20% time to do that has been difficult. Thankfully, we know how to fix that and got the okay/headcount to make it happen. (IOW, it isn't a lack of desire, but making it happen) But even if we haven't been able to open-source as much code as we'd like, we *have* been trying to be very supportive of the community. Between the Summer of Code and direct cash contributions, we've provided a LOT of support to a large number of open source organizations. And we have a couple other ideas on how to help the open source community. We're working on it! I salute your contribution to the world of open source in general. I'm hopeful that the employing Guido will lead to a more tangible bias in favour of Python ;-) All the best, Fuzzyman http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/index.shtml Cheers, -g -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So exactly how high is python in Google's priority list ? Or in other words, if python is in a stand still as it is now, what would be the impact to Google ? Since when is Python in a standstill? By all accounts I've seen, and personal observation over the last five years, it's use is growing rapidly, and the language itself (including in that word the libraries, tools, etc.) is continuing to evolve and improve. -Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: . . . Well, this may be the CPython way of open source but I don't know if that is Open source in general. Another way is that if someone(or group) don't like the current state of a project, they fork. I don't know if that is possible in the context of python, and programming language in general. Can it still be called python ? . . . While I don't understand the question, it might be pertinent to observe that, among open-source development projects, Python is unusual for the *large* number of forks or alternative imple- mentations it has supported through the years URL: http://phaseit.net/claird/comp.lang.python/python_varieties.html . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Cameron Laird wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: . . . Well, this may be the CPython way of open source but I don't know if that is Open source in general. Another way is that if someone(or group) don't like the current state of a project, they fork. I don't know if that is possible in the context of python, and programming language in general. Can it still be called python ? . . . While I don't understand the question, it might be pertinent to observe that, among open-source development projects, Python is unusual for the *large* number of forks or alternative imple- mentations it has supported through the years URL: http://phaseit.net/claird/comp.lang.python/python_varieties.html . The question is, can anyone just fork a new one using the python name, as part of the project, without the permission from the foundation ? Say for example, anyone want to implement java needs permission from Sun(or is it javasoft), if I rememeber correctly. Therefore, the only way to make change to java the language is to convince Sun, very similar to the model of Python. But many open source project is not using this model. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Java = Sun .Net = Microsoft C# = Microsoft Linux = too many big name IT companies to mention Python = ? I know at least one company responsible for a linux distro (Cannonical - Ubuntu), which encourages and even pays programmers for developing applications in Python. His founder, Mark Shuttleworth, is a python fan. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
On Thu, 2005-12-22 at 07:01, Peter Hansen wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So exactly how high is python in Google's priority list ? Or in other words, if python is in a stand still as it is now, what would be the impact to Google ? Since when is Python in a standstill? I believe bonono meant the question in the hypothetical sense of If Python would stand still in its current state, what would be the impact to Google? but didn't know how to ask it correctly. -Carsten -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
For what is worth, all of the native administration tools of RedHat (all versions) and Fedora Core are written in python (system-config-* and/or redhat-config-* ). And even more importantly, yum (the official software package manager for Fedora and RHEL) and Anaconda (OS installer) are written in Python, too. So RedHat, too, has a big interest in Python :-) -- Renato Ramonda -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Cameron Laird wrote:
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
.
Well, this may be the CPython way of open source but I don't know if
that is Open source in general. Another way is that if someone(or
group) don't like the current state of a project, they fork. I don't
know if that is possible in the context of python, and programming
language in general. Can it still be called python ?
.
While I don't understand the question, it might be pertinent to
observe that, among open-source development projects, Python is
unusual for the *large* number of forks or alternative imple-
mentations it has supported through the years URL:
http://phaseit.net/claird/comp.lang.python/python_varieties.html .
...though not a lot of forks/variations that have persisted past the
early-alpha phase. Many of those projects are stale or defunct, alas.
Personally, I'd point out Scheme as an open HLL with a vast number of
implementations. But I guess it helps when the language itself is a
spec and there's no canonical implementation.
This all reminds me of one my favourite quotes from python-list of
yore:
Thaddeus Olczyk So python will fork if ActiveState starts
polluting it?
Brian Quinlan I find it more relevant to speculate on whether
Python would fork if the merpeople start invading our cities
riding on the backs of giant king crabs. [1]
Merry _('Christmas') to all,
Graham
[1] http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2001-April/037142.html
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Cameron Laird wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: . . . Well, this may be the CPython way of open source but I don't know if that is Open source in general. Another way is that if someone(or group) don't like the current state of a project, they fork. I don't know if that is possible in the context of python, and programming language in general. Can it still be called python ? . . . While I don't understand the question, it might be pertinent to observe that, among open-source development projects, Python is unusual for the *large* number of forks or alternative imple- mentations it has supported through the years URL: http://phaseit.net/claird/comp.lang.python/python_varieties.html . The question is, can anyone just fork a new one using the python name, as part of the project, without the permission from the foundation ? Say for example, anyone want to implement java needs permission from Sun(or is it javasoft), if I rememeber correctly. Therefore, the only way to make change to java the language is to convince Sun, very similar to the model of Python. But many open source project is not using this model. Well the name Python is a trade mark of the Python Software Foundation. So if you invent another language and start calling it Python just to get an audience you should expect to receive a cease-and-desist letter. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Steve Holden wrote: Nicola Musatti wrote: Of course, I'm going on vacation next week and there was talk about a one-way ticket to Mexico. The real question is will they let me *back* in? :-) I would be careful coming back across the border. I heard that the PSU [suspicous premature end-of-sentence] Steve, I hope that the PSU is just jamming your comms, and not holding you captive over the holidays for your transgressions against the cabal! Graham -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Steve Holden wrote: Well the name Python is a trade mark of the Python Software Foundation. So if you invent another language and start calling it Python just to get an audience you should expect to receive a cease-and-desist letter. That is what I expect but don't know to what extend. Can it be called PythonModified like when people enhance vi so there is vim and nvi etc ? What about the copyright in CPython ? Can I someone take the codebase and make modifications then call it Sneak ? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
On Thu, 2005-12-22 at 08:18, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Cameron Laird wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: . . . Well, this may be the CPython way of open source but I don't know if that is Open source in general. Another way is that if someone(or group) don't like the current state of a project, they fork. I don't know if that is possible in the context of python, and programming language in general. Can it still be called python ? . . . While I don't understand the question, it might be pertinent to observe that, among open-source development projects, Python is unusual for the *large* number of forks or alternative imple- mentations it has supported through the years URL: http://phaseit.net/claird/comp.lang.python/python_varieties.html . The question is, can anyone just fork a new one using the python name, as part of the project, without the permission from the foundation ? Say for example, anyone want to implement java needs permission from Sun(or is it javasoft), if I rememeber correctly. Therefore, the only way to make change to java the language is to convince Sun, very similar to the model of Python. But many open source project is not using this model. Most of your question can be answered by reading the license. Section 3 of version 2 of the PSF license states: 3. In the event Licensee prepares a derivative work that is based on or incorporates Python or any part thereof, and wants to make the derivative work available to others as provided herein, then Licensee hereby agrees to include in any such work a brief summary of the changes made to Python. In other words, you can change Python to your liking and distribute the changed version, as long as you tell people how it differs from Python. Since the changed version is different from Python, calling it Python would be a) boneheaded and b) as Steve Holden points out, a trademark violation. Note that section 7 states that This License Agreement does not grant permission to use PSF trademarks or trade name in a trademark sense to endorse or promote products or services of Licensee, or any third party and the Python name is a trademark of the PSF. So, if there is something you don't like about Python, you have two choices: 1) Seek consensus with the Python community and have your changes accepted into the official Python version, or 2) Fork Python into something else with a different name. If the different name contains 'Python', you'll probably have to ask PSF for permission. In any case, as outlined above, you have have to state that the fork is based on Python and summarize how it differs from Python. Hope this clears things up, Carsten. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steve Holden wrote: Well the name Python is a trade mark of the Python Software Foundation. So if you invent another language and start calling it Python just to get an audience you should expect to receive a cease-and-desist letter. That is what I expect but don't know to what extend. Can it be called PythonModified like when people enhance vi so there is vim and nvi etc ? What about the copyright in CPython ? Can I someone take the codebase and make modifications then call it Sneak ? Far answers to this and all other (as far as I can determine) hypothetical questions please refer to the license. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Carsten Haese wrote: So, if there is something you don't like about Python, you have two choices: 1) Seek consensus with the Python community and have your changes accepted into the official Python version, or 2) Fork Python into something else with a different name. If the different name contains 'Python', you'll probably have to ask PSF for permission. In any case, as outlined above, you have have to state that the fork is based on Python and summarize how it differs from Python. Hope this clears things up, Thanks, though I don't have urgent need(if at all) to see changes in it. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 06:18:52 -0800, Graham Fawcett wrote: Steve Holden wrote: I would be careful coming back across the border. I heard that the PSU [suspicous premature end-of-sentence] Steve, I hope that the PSU is just jamming your comms, and not holding you captive over the holidays for your transgressions against the cabal! No, you don't understand. There is no PSU, and Steven doesn't know about them (since it doesn't exist), and he nor I were held captive by the PSU, since it doesn't exist. Nor is there, in fact, a PSU. Please stop spreading rumours about the PSU. Not that you would be hunted down and silenced forcefully by the PSU, which doesn't exist, if you continued to spread such malignant lies about the existance of the non-existant PSU, which doesn't exist, of course. Because it doesn't exist. So it wouldn't be able to do that. Trust me. Not-brainwashed-after-a-long-but-utterly-unsuspicious-and-PSU-unrelated-absense'ly y'rs, -- Thomas Wouters [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Graham Fawcett wrote: Steve Holden wrote: Nicola Musatti wrote: Of course, I'm going on vacation next week and there was talk about a one-way ticket to Mexico. The real question is will they let me *back* in? :-) I would be careful coming back across the border. I heard that the PSU [suspicous premature end-of-sentence] Steve, I hope that the PSU is just jamming your comms, and not holding you captive over the holidays for your transgressions against the cabal! At about the same instant that he sent that message to group, I was trying to call Steve on Google Talk and he suddenly went offline. I haven't seen him since. While I'm worried for him personally, all I can say is that I think it's a darn good thing for the community... ...I mean, that he's not the PyCon conference chair this year! -Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ... What about the copyright in CPython ? Can I someone take the codebase and make modifications then call it Sneak ? Of course they _could_ do that, and even without making modifications beyond the name change. If you want to know whether it's legal, that's a different question. Take a copy of the Python license to your lawyer and buy an opinion worth hearing ;-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Alex Martelli wrote: Rhetorical questions are a perfectly legitimate style of writing (although, like all stylistic embellishments, they can be overused, and can be made much less effective if murkily or fuzzily phrased), of course. Also, email doesn't convey rhetorical questions that well. Facial expressions and body movement aid the audience in picking up on things such as this... maybe Google can fix that too ;) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Luis M. González wrote: Java = Sun .Net = Microsoft C# = Microsoft Linux = too many big name IT companies to mention Python = ? I know at least one company responsible for a linux distro (Cannonical - Ubuntu), which encourages and even pays programmers for developing applications in Python. His founder, Mark Shuttleworth, is a python fan. Aren't most all intelligent people Python fans? Python is so unbarbaric or one might say 'refined', yet it can be applied in a practical manner to all sorts of things. It's like having James Bond as your very own personal body guard ;) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... So exactly how high is python in Google's priority list ? Or in other words, if python is in a stand still as it is now, what would be the impact to Google ? As an outsider, I can only base on public info, like And so can I, as an insider, when I communicate with people who are not employed by Google nor have signed non-disclosure agreements. a press release mentioning Guido has been hired. If only press releases count, then I believe Google has made few hires in 2005 -- Elliot Schrage, Johnny Chou, and Vint Cerf, would be about it, I believe (e.g., I can't even see any press release specifically about our hiring Kai Fu Lee at http://googlepress.blogspot.com, though he's mentioned in the press release about Chou). An example of rhetorical question: Do you really think that a specific technology [including a software one, such as a programming language] cannot have, in certain cases, *extremely high* strategic priority for organizations with thousands of employees? ... Surprisingly, I don't see this as an rhetorical question at all. It is Then you don't know what rhetorical question means; you'll find many explanations on the web, but one of my favorite is a question that conveys a point rather than expects an answer, which is exactly what this example IS. ((I don't personally find it all that surprising that you don't know what a given English expression means)). quite netural to me as a I don't agree with you without indication of silliness, just a style of writing. As I said, and I quote: Rhetorical questions are a perfectly legitimate style of writing although they can be overused, or weakened if they're fuzzy or badly expressed. More specifically, a rhetorical question may often be used for effect and emphasis, as several of the definitions you'll find on the web mention. Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Carsten Haese [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2005-12-22 at 07:01, Peter Hansen wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So exactly how high is python in Google's priority list ? Or in other words, if python is in a stand still as it is now, what would be the impact to Google ? Since when is Python in a standstill? I believe bonono meant the question in the hypothetical sense of If Python would stand still in its current state, what would be the impact to Google? but didn't know how to ask it correctly. Answering generically rather than on the basis of any inside information, like for any other technology, a lot would depend on how other technologies competing for similar uses are faring. If _every_ programming language were suddenly to undergo the same standing still, then the technological stasis would affect every company using programming languages, regardless of their specific technology choices: productivity growth would slow across the board (not stop, of course -- cfr. e.g. Tenner's Our Own Devices for very readable analysis of the effects of the developments of technology versus technique) but the competitive situation would be unaffected. If, on the other hand, technology X was to suddently stand still while competing technology Y keeps showing real improvements, this would progressively tilt the competitive playing field against companies heavily invested in X and not in Y; eventually such companies would have to pay the costs of switching to Y, or suffer a deterioration in their competitive position. That Google's heavily invested in Python is hardly inside information (I believe we have a quote to that effect by Peter Norvig on python.org). Of course, this pretty obvious analysis treats Python as a whole technology -- it doesn't particularly care whether improvements come to the language per se, to the libraries, to the implementation, etc, it just takes as improvement any change that does enhance existing users' productivity (indeed, changes that do so without requiring any training or much work, such as compiling an unchanged language to faster code, might have more immediate impact than new language features, which would only enter into use slowly and gradually). Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Renato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: all of the native administration tools of RedHat (all versions) and Fedora Core are written in python (system-config-* and/or redhat-config-* ). And even more importantly, yum (the official software package manager for Fedora and RHEL) and Anaconda (OS installer) are written in Python, too. BTW, Chip Turner (from RedHat, and deeply involved in those developments) happened to start at Google the same day I did;-). Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Peter Hansen wrote: Graham Fawcett wrote: Steve Holden wrote: Nicola Musatti wrote: Of course, I'm going on vacation next week and there was talk about a one-way ticket to Mexico. The real question is will they let me *back* in? :-) I would be careful coming back across the border. I heard that the PSU [suspicous premature end-of-sentence] Steve, I hope that the PSU is just jamming your comms, and not holding you captive over the holidays for your transgressions against the cabal! At about the same instant that he sent that message to group, I was trying to call Steve on Google Talk and he suddenly went offline. I haven't seen him since. There is no Steve Holden, and he has never been at war with Eurasia. Remove the P, S and U keys from your keyboard immediately. double-plus-good'ly yours, ...umm... doble-l-good'ly yor, Graham -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Cameron Laird wrote: While I don't understand the question, it might be pertinent to observe that, among open-source development projects, Python is unusual for the *large* number of forks or alternative imple- mentations it has supported through the years URL: http://phaseit.net/claird/comp.lang.python/python_varieties.html . If you are maintaining that page - JPython is now called Jython and has a web site at http://www.jython.org. Kent -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Graham Fawcett said unto the world upon 2005-12-22 08:18: Steve Holden wrote: Nicola Musatti wrote: Of course, I'm going on vacation next week and there was talk about a one-way ticket to Mexico. The real question is will they let me *back* in? :-) I would be careful coming back across the border. I heard that the PSU [suspicous premature end-of-sentence] There one weapon is surp -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Gary Herron wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: Greg Stein wrote: [...] provided a LOT of support to a large number of open source organizations. I hope that you invest some time to _organize_ the Open Source Projects. Starting with Python and it's project-structure (e.g. build-process) and documentation (e.g. ensuring standard-terminology is kept, like class) e.g.: where can I find an UML diagramm of the Python Object Model? Even Ruby has one: http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/ruby/TheRubyObjectModel.png [...] And finally: If Mr. van Rossum is now at Google, and Python is essentially a Mr. van Rossum based product, then most possibly the evolution-speed of Python will decrease even more (Google will implement things needed by Google - van Rossum will follow, so simple). I mean, when will this language finally become a _really_ fully Object-Oriented one, with a clean reflective Meta-Model? Thus I can see Python pass this this _simple_ evaluation (which it does not pass in its current implementation): http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/python.html - I have around one year to await. You don't appear to understand Open Source very well. I understand some of the several (partly contrary) meanings of Open Source. Python is the way it is because we, the community, *like* it that way. It evolves in directions that we (all) decide it is to evolve. Guido is our leader in this because we trust him and *choose* to follow his lead. If you want something changed you don't wait and you don't whine, you join the community with a reasoned argument for why your idea would make it a better language in *our* eyes. So how about it... What's your complaint, As expressed above, I am afraid about pythons evolution-speed and futher evolution in general. a) Missing clear and concise documentation, e.g. of Python Object Model, like UML diagramm: http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/ruby/TheRubyObjectModel.png b) Leadership (Board/Leader) should engourage change suggestions and analytical feedback, whilst accepting analyst-role in addition to implementors-roles (_both_ are contributions! This should be communicated by the Board/Leader to the Communicty): [EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/f5cd74aa26617f17 c) I mean, when will python become _really_ fully Object-Oriented, with a clean reflective Meta-Model? Thus it will pass this simple evaluation: http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/python.html what's your solution, http://lazaridis.com/efficiency/textual.html http://lazaridis.com/efficiency/process.html [alpha status, comments via email or contact-form are welcome] and why should we listen? Cause this would increase the evolution-speed of python. This would contribute to its success. Gary Herron . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 09:07:26 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alex Martelli) wrote: Renato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: all of the native administration tools of RedHat (all versions) and Fedora Core are written in python (system-config-* and/or redhat-config-* ). And even more importantly, yum (the official software package manager for Fedora and RHEL) and Anaconda (OS installer) are written in Python, too. BTW, Chip Turner (from RedHat, and deeply involved in those developments) happened to start at Google the same day I did;-). So is google about to determine how many luminaries can fit on the head of a project? ;-) Seriously, if you heavies do sometimes work on the same project, it would be interesting to know what modes of co-operation you tend to adopt. Regards, Bengt Richter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Alex Martelli wrote: Renato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: all of the native administration tools of RedHat (all versions) and Fedora Core are written in python (system-config-* and/or redhat-config-* ). And even more importantly, yum (the official software package manager for Fedora and RHEL) and Anaconda (OS installer) are written in Python, too. BTW, Chip Turner (from RedHat, and deeply involved in those developments) happened to start at Google the same day I did;-). Ah, the closed source days! Back then you could just buy the company and be done with it. Now you have to chase developers one by one all over the world... ;-) Cheers, Nicola Musatti -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
rbt wrote: Luis M. González wrote: Java = Sun .Net = Microsoft C# = Microsoft Linux = too many big name IT companies to mention Python = ? I know at least one company responsible for a linux distro (Cannonical - Ubuntu), which encourages and even pays programmers for developing applications in Python. His founder, Mark Shuttleworth, is a python fan. Aren't most all intelligent people Python fans? Sure, but I am not under the illusion that intelligent people control the fate of the world Python is so unbarbaric or one might say 'refined', yet it can be applied in a practical manner to all sorts of things. It's like having James Bond as your very own personal body guard ;) The truth becomes evident: Guido did not invent Python, Q did! Or is Guido Q? Reminds me of a story I heard about Guido- he was working at the PSU and -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
And I have around one year to wait for Ruby to get rid of the nasty syntax copied from Perl and make it look as beautiful as Python Then I'll consider switching. ;) Ummm, I'm sorry, did you say clean reflective meta-model??? So this: caller[0] =~ /in `([^']+)'/ ? $1 : '(anonymous)' vs. the python example: filename, line, fname, source = traceback.extract_stack(limit=2)[0] return fname is what you call clean?? Hmmm ... interesting. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And I have around one year to wait for Ruby to get rid of the nasty syntax copied from Perl and make it look as beautiful as Python Then I'll consider switching. ;) Ummm, I'm sorry, did you say clean reflective meta-model??? yes. So this: caller[0] =~ /in `([^']+)'/ ? $1 : '(anonymous)' vs. the python example: filename, line, fname, source = traceback.extract_stack(limit=2)[0] return fname is what you call clean?? Hmmm ... interesting. no, It is not. I've not yet defined what I would call the clean way. - both code examples were provided from the community (limited responses from python community). - Ruby does not pass the evaluation, too (although it is closer, due to the clean metadata capability). - And: Ruby has even lower evolution speed: http://lazaridis.com/core/eval/ruby.html . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Herds of cats (was: Guido at Google)
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Nicola Musatti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: . . . Ah, the closed source days! Back then you could just buy the company and be done with it. Now you have to chase developers one by one all over the world... ;-) . . . You propellor-heads (I write that in all fondness, Nicola) are all laughing, but I'm certain that the right elaboration of that proposition could make it into the *Harvard Business Review* (or *IBM Systems Journal*, which seems to have tilted irreversibly in that direction). Actually, there's already a considerable literature on how pro- grammers are like other nasty professionals in exhibiting more loyalty to their community than to their employers. Generalize as desired. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Python's ontology and governance (was: Guido at Google)
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: . . . The question is, can anyone just fork a new one using the python name, as part of the project, without the permission from the foundation ? Say for example, anyone want to implement java needs permission from Sun(or is it javasoft), if I rememeber correctly. Therefore, the only way to make change to java the language is to convince Sun, very similar to the model of Python. But many open source project is not using this model. While I *think* there are several factual errors in this paragraph, it seems even more probable to me that our different verbal styles have led to multiple misunderstandings between the two of us. Yes, Python is like other projects in some ways, and different in others. Apparently you think there are severe legal restrictions on the free- dom each of us has to base derivative works on the Python source. I'll summarize: there aren't. Apart from a few very mild constraints that prohibit you from little more than saying that you're Guido and you invented Python, you have remarkable liberty to adapt Python to your own needs. Moreover, this freedom is not merely a theoretical principle; *numerous* working engineers have changed Python to meet their own requirements, and quite a few of these modified Pythons are in production around the world. I've heard Guido speak words of encouragement to others to do the same. While I'm only a member of the PSF, and do not speak on its behalf, it had never occurred to me to equate the management of Java by Sun with that of Python by the PSF. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
The Varieties of Pythonic Experience (was: Guido at Google)
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Graham Fawcett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: . . . ...though not a lot of forks/variations that have persisted past the early-alpha phase. Many of those projects are stale or defunct, alas. Personally, I'd point out Scheme as an open HLL with a vast number of implementations. But I guess it helps when the language itself is a spec and there's no canonical implementation. This all reminds me of one my favourite quotes from python-list of yore: Thaddeus Olczyk So python will fork if ActiveState starts polluting it? Brian Quinlan I find it more relevant to speculate on whether Python would fork if the merpeople start invading our cities riding on the backs of giant king crabs. [1] . . . Brian's wise observation on speculation--well, I, too, think it deserves to be repeated. Lisp was, in fact, the language I had in mind when thinking about multiple implementations. You are surely right to emphasize the difference between language as spec and language as implementa- tion. My own perspective is not to mourn the dormancy of, say, Vyper, but to be intrigued by the serious use that continues to be made of Jython, Stackless, and so on. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 19:38:12 +0200, Ilias Lazaridis wrote: As expressed above, I am afraid about pythons evolution-speed and futher evolution in general. Yet you don't seem to be worried for any (Python) specific reason. Python evolution has known its ups and downs. For instance, back when Guido worked at CNRI, Guido was one of the few people with direct access to the CVS repository. The others were, I believe, all CNRI employees (and trusted Python developers.) This worked fine for quite a bit, since Guido first did most of the work, and reviewed patches from the community personally. Towards the end of Guido's employment with CNRI, this had begun to chafe a bit, and if you look at releasedates and featuresets, you'll see quite a gap between Python 1.5.2 and Python 2.0. (Python 1.6 doesn't really count, for various historical reasons, but even if you compare CNRI-funded 1.6 with opensource-developed 2.0 you'll see a large set of diverse new features.) What happened was that Python development moved to SourceForge, and more people got easier access. More trusted developers got write access to the repository, and more people got involved in writing patches. It also meant Guido couldn't keep up with development by others, and he (eventually) solved that by introducing PEPs. (Like much of Python, he probably wasn't the first to voice the suggestion, but it's quite likely he was in fact thinking of it, possibly subconciously, before anyone suggested it...[1] So I don't think whoever voiced it first minds Guido getting the crdits.) But he didn't think of PEPs before they'd become absolutely necessary. He didn't sit at CNRI thinking, Gee, I wish I could give more people access and accept more community patches, but how do I decide which ideas are fundamentally good or bad?, then thought up the administrative layer of PEPs. They showed up when they were needed, in a form that seemed convenient, and they evolved over time (slowly, and only slightly, as far as I can tell) to fit the specific needs. The tools to facilitate evolution grow from necessity. They probably wouldn't work if forced upon Python. And the evolution speed in general, regardless of tools that make that evolution easier, is in fact determined by need. The unification of types and classes grew out of a need. It was quite a fundamental step in Python's object model, and one that had been argued long before it happened, but the actual implementation waited, in my eyes, until exactly the right time. Obvious practical need for it, good ideas with regards to implementation, experience from Zope's ExtensionClass and various uses of the old metaclass hook, and a group of Python programmers quite eager to play with all the new toys Guido gave them. Heck, I still love playing with new=style classes and creating subclassable types and subtypes in C. A few years earlier it wouldn't have ended up the same, for lack of experience and need, and a few years later would probably have been too late. a) Missing clear and concise documentation, e.g. of Python Object Model, like UML diagramm: I guess it depends on your idea of clear and concise. I've never, ever, had a problem with understanding Python's object model. Even new-style classes only required two PEPs, a few hundred lines each, for me to understand. I honestly don't care about UML diagrams. And, what's more, apparently neither does anyone else, or the diagram would have been made already. In fact, if it's missing, why don't you add it? That's what opensource is about :) b) Leadership (Board/Leader) should engourage change suggestions and analytical feedback, whilst accepting analyst-role in addition to implementors-roles (_both_ are contributions! This should be communicated by the Board/Leader to the Communicty): Why would that be necessary, if the current system works? Extra layers for the sake of extra layers, bureaucracy to feed the need for bureaucracy in itself, seems madness to me. If it ain't broken, don't fix it. I'm sure the extra formal layers work quite well in other projects, in other communities, just like the Python setup wouldn't work for those other projects. But it works for Python, as evidenced by Python's evolution speed. c) I mean, when will python become _really_ fully Object-Oriented, with a clean reflective Meta-Model? When someone needs it enough to convince Guido it's practical. Python values practicality above quite a lot of things, like consistency. Consistency for the sake of consistency, by giving up practicality, ease-of-use, readability, portability or any of the other important aspects of Python, will hopefully never happen. and why should we listen? Cause this would increase the evolution-speed of python. This would contribute to its success. I don't understand where your confidence in these matters comes from. The 'this' you refer to *might*, in fact, increase the evolution-speed, although at what cost I am uncertain. I wouldn't be
Re: Guido at Google
Gary Herron wrote: So how about it... What's your complaint, what's your solution, and why should we listen? Nobody will ever know. Check the comp.lang.python/ruby/lisp/etc archives for more. /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
lazy bastard -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
So when *is* someone (either Guido himself or Google) going to officially announce that Guido has moved to Google? If at all? Also, it would be nice to know from Guido's perspective what, if any at all, impact this will have on Python? Maybe here? http://www.artima.com/weblogs/index.jsp?blogger=guido Is this Guido's official blog? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Guido would acknowledge a query, but never announce it. That's not his style. This should have a positive impact on Python. His job description has a *very* significant portion of his time dedicated specifically to working on Python. (much more than his previous one day a week jobs have given him) Cheers, -g -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: The Varieties of Pythonic Experience (was: Guido at Google)
You mean Jython is still going? ; ) Robert -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
On Dec 22, 2005, at 2:20 PM, Greg Stein wrote: Guido would acknowledge a query, but never announce it. That's not his style. This should have a positive impact on Python. His job description has a *very* significant portion of his time dedicated specifically to working on Python. (much more than his previous one day a week jobs have given him) Cheers, -g Do you actually mean working on Python, or did you mean working WITH Python? Jay P -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Jay Parlar wrote: On Dec 22, 2005, at 2:20 PM, Greg Stein wrote: Guido would acknowledge a query, but never announce it. That's not his style. This should have a positive impact on Python. His job description has a *very* significant portion of his time dedicated specifically to working on Python. (much more than his previous one day a week jobs have given him) Cheers, -g Do you actually mean working on Python, or did you mean working WITH Python? I'm pretty sure he means working on Python. No one hires Guido and expects him not to work *with* Python most of the time. -- Robert Kern [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the fields of hell where the grass grows high Are the graves of dreams allowed to die. -- Richard Harter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Ilias Lazaridis wrote: Greg Stein wrote: Yeah... we recognize that we could certainly open-source more of our software. While we've released some stuff (code.google.com/projects.html), there is a LOT more that we want to http://code.google.com/projects.html do. Getting engineers' 20% time to do that has been difficult. Thankfully, we know how to fix that and got the okay/headcount to make it happen. (IOW, it isn't a lack of desire, but making it happen) When a company like Google open's sources, this means simply nothing more than: - the software is not critical to their business (e.g. core-software) - the internal resources cannot ensure further development See IBM, SUN and others, which have done the same thing. But even if we haven't been able to open-source as much code as we'd like, we *have* been trying to be very supportive of the community. Between the Summer of Code and direct cash contributions, we've provided a LOT of support to a large number of open source organizations. I hope that you invest some time to _organize_ the Open Source Projects. Starting with Python and it's project-structure (e.g. build-process) and documentation (e.g. ensuring standard-terminology is kept, like class) e.g.: where can I find an UML diagramm of the Python Object Model? Even Ruby has one: http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/ruby/TheRubyObjectModel.png - And we have a couple other ideas on how to help the open source community. We're working on it! The open-source-community can help Google, too! E.g.: Google needs an public Issue-Tracking-System. I needed around 30 emails and 2 months until google-groups-support removed a bug which broke(!) existent links to google archives. (cannot find the topic. Simply search your support-archives to see the desaster). With publicity, the team would have removed the bug within one week. Cheers, -g And finally: If Mr. van Rossum is now at Google, and Python is essentially a Mr. van Rossum based product, then most possibly the evolution-speed of Python will decrease even more (Google will implement things needed by Google - van Rossum will follow, so simple). I mean, when will this language finally become a _really_ fully Object-Oriented one, with a clean reflective Meta-Model? Thus I can see Python pass this this _simple_ evaluation (which it does not pass in its current implementation): http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/python.html - I have around one year to await. Will see. . -- http://lazaridis.com Hi there, I wonder what comments you would have about XOTCL, or other OO extensions for tcl, like snit, and dozens more. I looked at the various scripting languages available to me and decided to go with tcl as it seemed the most versatile. I can't find it on your page though. Regards. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
[Greg Stein] Guido would acknowledge a query, but never announce it. That's not his style. He's been very low-key about it, but did make an informal announcement on the PSF-Members mailing list. This should have a positive impact on Python. His job description has a *very* significant portion of his time dedicated specifically to working on Python. (much more than his previous one day a week jobs have given him) It's got to be better than getting one patch per year from him, trying to fix threading on the ever-popular Open Source combination of HP-UX on an Itanium chip wink. [Jay Parlar] Do you actually mean working on Python, or did you mean working WITH Python? [Robert Kern] I'm pretty sure he means working on Python. While I'm not a professional Greg-channeller, in this case I can: he meant what he said. No one hires Guido and expects him not to work *with* Python most of the time. Ask Guido how fond he is of Java these days ;-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
50% on 100% with On 12/22/05, Jay Parlar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 22, 2005, at 2:20 PM, Greg Stein wrote: Guido would acknowledge a query, but never announce it. That's not his style. This should have a positive impact on Python. His job description has a *very* significant portion of his time dedicated specifically to working on Python. (much more than his previous one day a week jobs have given him) Cheers, -g Do you actually mean working on Python, or did you mean working WITH Python? Jay P -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Greg Stein wrote: 50% on 100% with Wow, that's great to know, thanks Greg! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
JB wrote: long life to Guido Goole ! many things to come ;) Google is merely the new Microsoft and surely just as unethical at its core. And your spelling Goole is probably closer to the mark, since it is merely the next ghoulish big company, come to restrict our freedoms and blot out the sky. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: JB wrote: long life to Guido Goole ! many things to come ;) Google is merely the new Microsoft and surely just as unethical at its core. And your spelling Goole is probably closer to the mark, since it is merely the next ghoulish big company, come to restrict our freedoms and blot out the sky. I beg to disagree. Google is what it is because it creates good and useful products which everybody enjoy for free. For doing this, they hire the best guns and, guess what? These talented people have to eat, like you and me. Do you expect them to work for free? Every company needs to make money, otherwise they would die. But there are many ways to make it, and I think they are as good and ethical as they can be. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
This is interesting. With more Python time in Guido's hands maybe Py 3.0 is a bit closer... :-) I don't know if this is a silly idea: A small part of the wealth of a modern state is probably determined by the software it uses/produces, and a small part of this software is open source or free. This free sofware is used by a lot of people, and they probably use it to work too, etc. For a modern government, paying a salary to few (20?) very good open source programmers can make the whole society earn maybe 10 or more times that money... (The money given from EU to PyPy can be an example of this). Bye, bearophile -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: [...] http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/python.html [...] Hi there, I wonder what comments you would have about XOTCL, or other OO extensions for tcl, like snit, and dozens more. I looked at the various scripting languages available to me and decided to go with tcl as it seemed the most versatile. I can't find it on your page though. Regards. I had myself a positive impression about TCL, but a negative one with the community (and with the many OO extensions for TCL, which would be a sub-evaluation): [JAMLANG] - Comparative Evaluation - Draft Version http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.tcl/browse_frm/thread/8791f3b541d976f5 If you like, you can fill in the evaluation based on tcl/XOTCL (which would be published then). http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/index.html you can alternatively sent a text-file via email. If you have further questions, please contact me with private email. Thank you for your intrest. Best Regards, Ilias Lazaridis . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is interesting. With more Python time in Guido's hands maybe Py 3.0 is a bit closer... :-) I don't know if this is a silly idea: A small part of the wealth of a modern state is probably determined by the software it uses/produces, and a small part of this software is open source or free. This free sofware is used by a lot of people, and they probably use it to work too, etc. For a modern government, paying a salary to few (20?) very good open source programmers can make the whole society earn maybe 10 or more times that money... (The money given from EU to PyPy can be an example of this). No, it's not a silly idea. Dean Baker, the Co-Director the Center for Economic and Policy Research, has proposed for the U.S. government to establish a Software Developer's Corps. For $2 billion per year, it could fund about 20,000 developers to make open source software. Much of that software would be directly usable by local, state, and federal governments and thus pay back some, all, or more of the investment (Dean estimates more). In addition, the general public also benefits directly. http://www.cepr.net/publications/windows_2005_10.pdf -- Robert Kern [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the fields of hell where the grass grows high Are the graves of dreams allowed to die. -- Richard Harter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Fredrik Lundh wrote: Gary Herron wrote: So how about it... What's your complaint, what's your solution, and why should we listen? Nobody will ever know. simply review this explanations: http://lazaridis.com/core/index.html some people have already understood this in the past. Check the comp.lang.python/ruby/lisp/etc archives for more. evaluations will be listed here shortly: http://lazaridis.com/core/eval/index.html (if you find an itresting topic, please send the link) /F . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Thomas Wouters wrote: [...] thank you for your comments. - TAG.python.evolution.negate . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Nicola Musatti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alex Martelli wrote: Renato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: all of the native administration tools of RedHat (all versions) and Fedora Core are written in python (system-config-* and/or redhat-config-* ). And even more importantly, yum (the official software package manager for Fedora and RHEL) and Anaconda (OS installer) are written in Python, too. BTW, Chip Turner (from RedHat, and deeply involved in those developments) happened to start at Google the same day I did;-). Ah, the closed source days! Back then you could just buy the company and be done with it. Now you have to chase developers one by one all over the world... ;-) Well, you can STILL buy the company -- eBay's bought Skipe (and a slice of craigslist), Yahoo's bought delicious and flickr, we've bought Keyhole (and a tiny slice of AOL)... just to mention recent and salient acquisitions...;-) Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Greg Stein wrote: Guido would acknowledge a query, but never announce it. That's not his style. This should have a positive impact on Python. His job description has a *very* significant portion of his time dedicated specifically to working on Python. (much more than his previous one day a week jobs have given him) Doeas anyone at google realize the threat? Mr. van Rossum should have 100% of his time for working on Python at least for around 3 to 6 months. 50% for working on it (whilst simply having fun, as he should) 50% for _decoupling_ the strong-dependency of the python-development from his person, thus python-evolution is ensured. This would involve to clarify, document and to communicate the need to the community (which seems to partially have a strong dependency, too). . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Bengt Richter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 09:07:26 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alex Martelli) wrote: Renato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: all of the native administration tools of RedHat (all versions) and Fedora Core are written in python (system-config-* and/or redhat-config-* ). And even more importantly, yum (the official software package manager for Fedora and RHEL) and Anaconda (OS installer) are written in Python, too. BTW, Chip Turner (from RedHat, and deeply involved in those developments) happened to start at Google the same day I did;-). So is google about to determine how many luminaries can fit on the head of a project? ;-) Seriously, if you heavies do sometimes work on the same project, it would be interesting to know what modes of co-operation you tend to adopt. Google's official position (per the article Hal Varian and Eric Schmidt wrote recently) is that we are a consensus-oriented culture. I _have_ worked in companies with consensus-oriented cultures, such as IBM in the '80s (where it sometimes paralized everything, since one manager's non-concur was enough to block progress on a project), and I would respectfully disagree (on this point only -- the rest of their article is quite consonant with my personal experiences) with our beloved leader and our most excellent advisor. I would say we're a *results-oriented* corporate culture... sometimes egos may get bruised, but we're all supposed to have small-enough, resilient-enough egos to survive and remain happy and productive anyway;-). Check the xooglers' blog for others' opinions... Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
rbt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... His founder, Mark Shuttleworth, is a python fan. Aren't most all intelligent people Python fans? No: I know many intelligent people who are not Python fans, ranging from the Perl crowd (lot of great, bright people who however prefer Perl to Python) to Ruby fans, from the C++ intelligentsia to the Java in-crowd... hard to explain, for sure, but, there you are! Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Bugs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So when *is* someone (either Guido himself or Google) going to officially announce that Guido has moved to Google? If at all? I don't think any official announcement is planned. Also, it would be nice to know from Guido's perspective what, if any at all, impact this will have on Python? I'll leave this to Guido to answer, if he wants to. Maybe here? http://www.artima.com/weblogs/index.jsp?blogger=guido Is this Guido's official blog? I believe so, yes. Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
It's like having James Bond as your very own personal body guard ;) That is such a nice quote that I am going to put it in my email signature ! :) -Anand -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Guido at Google
It seems that our master Guido van Rossum had an offer from google and he accepted it!! long life to Guido Goole ! many things to come ;) ju² -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
That's potentially very good news. (Or slightly sinister -depending on your paranoia levels). You got any references on that ? I was just thinking that the open source offerings from google are actually pretty pitiful - considering the time investment they have put into developing software systems. (Summer of Code not-withstanding of course). I wonder if this heralds google finally upgrading from Python 2.2 ;-) All the best, Fuzzyman http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/index.shtml -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
It seems that our master Guido van Rossum had an offer from google and he accepted it!! Isn't Guido-Sans official title BDFL? *wink* whatever, if it's true, congratulations and best wishes. Now there is one *bot and the BDFL at google, we have still 3 bots in the wild, do we? Suggesting to name a Rigobot Harald -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Fuzzyman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's potentially very good news. (Or slightly sinister -depending on your paranoia levels). You got any references on that ? I don't think there was any official announcement, but it's true -- he sits about 15 meters away from me;-). I was just thinking that the open source offerings from google are actually pretty pitiful - considering the time investment they have put into developing software systems. (Summer of Code not-withstanding of course). The key technical person for opensource at Google isn't Guido and isn't me -- rather, I'd focus on Greg Stein (whose contributions to open source have been very wide-ranging, and who's been our engineering manager for opensource for quite a while now... not a secret, you can read about that on Greg's own blog). If you want more opensource from us, he's most probably the best person to bug about it!-). I'm sure that, being the chairman of the Apache Software Foundation (the VP of the ASF is also a Google employee), he can bend your ears about that;-). I wonder if this heralds google finally upgrading from Python 2.2 ;-) We currently use multiple versions of Python, and I personally don't see that changing overnight. But, we'll see. Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Alex Martelli wrote: Fuzzyman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's potentially very good news. (Or slightly sinister -depending on your paranoia levels). You got any references on that ? I don't think there was any official announcement, but it's true -- he sits about 15 meters away from me;-). Cool - pass on my regards and thanks to him. ;-) I was just thinking that the open source offerings from google are actually pretty pitiful - considering the time investment they have put into developing software systems. (Summer of Code not-withstanding of course). The key technical person for opensource at Google isn't Guido and isn't me -- rather, I'd focus on Greg Stein (whose contributions to open source have been very wide-ranging, and who's been our engineering manager for opensource for quite a while now... not a secret, you can read about that on Greg's own blog). If you want more opensource from us, he's most probably the best person to bug about it!-). I'm sure that, being the chairman of the Apache Software Foundation (the VP of the ASF is also a Google employee), he can bend your ears about that;-). Well, employing key open-source personnel and supporting them in their work *probably* counts as helping the open-source world. OTOH they (you...) must have worked on/with tremendous systems - like load balancing software as one example off the top of my head. I guess these are the competitive edge of google - and also there is a lot of work turning in house systems into 'released' ones, even if the will is there. Even so - the code that has been directly released by google is relatively slender. I wonder if this heralds google finally upgrading from Python 2.2 ;-) We currently use multiple versions of Python, and I personally don't see that changing overnight. But, we'll see. I've no axe to grind on that one. All the best, Fuzzyman http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/index.shtml Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Alex Martelli wrote: Fuzzyman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's potentially very good news. (Or slightly sinister -depending on your paranoia levels). You got any references on that ? I don't think there was any official announcement, but it's true -- he sits about 15 meters away from me;-). Tsk, tsk, all that brainpower sitting so close together. That's not the way to do risk management! I think you should suggest scattering resources worldwide... now, it just so happens that there's an empty five floor building a block and a half from my home... By the way, I hear that you've become collegues also with Matt Austern, formerly of Apple, and Danny Thorpe, formerly of Borland. I guess we mere mortals don't stand a chance of being hired, but if the trend continues there are going to be a lot of very interesting positions opening everywhere else :-) Cheers, Nicola Musatti -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Alex Martelli wrote: I don't think there was any official announcement, but it's true -- he sits about 15 meters away from me;-). For Americans: 15 meters is roughly 50 feet. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
rbt wrote: Alex Martelli wrote: I don't think there was any official announcement, but it's true -- he sits about 15 meters away from me;-). For Americans: 15 meters is roughly 50 feet. Well they could have used google for that ;-) http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=15+meter+in+feetbtnG=Google+Search -- mph -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Well, congrats to Google! I think they're the lucky ones, to get him, and you, both. :-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 01:36:42PM -0500, rbt wrote: Alex Martelli wrote: I don't think there was any official announcement, but it's true -- he sits about 15 meters away from me;-). For Americans: 15 meters is roughly 50 feet. Right, so that is about three and a half stone? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Jack Diederich wrote: On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 01:36:42PM -0500, rbt wrote: Alex Martelli wrote: I don't think there was any official announcement, but it's true -- he sits about 15 meters away from me;-). For Americans: 15 meters is roughly 50 feet. Right, so that is about three and a half stone? You're probably** thinking of rods, as a stone is a measure of weight. http://www.google.com/search?q=convert+15+meters+to+rods -- ** More likely you're just pulling our legs. :-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
rbt wrote: Alex Martelli wrote: I don't think there was any official announcement, but it's true -- he sits about 15 meters away from me;-). For Americans: 15 meters is roughly 50 feet. Google can do that too, of course. wink http://www.google.com/search?q=convert+15+meters+to+feet (49.2125984 feet to be more precise) -Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Jack Diederich wrote: On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 01:36:42PM -0500, rbt wrote: Alex Martelli wrote: I don't think there was any official announcement, but it's true -- he sits about 15 meters away from me;-). For Americans: 15 meters is roughly 50 feet. Right, so that is about three and a half stone? Stone is a measure of weight, not distance. (14 pounds, ~6.35 kg) 15 meters (150 decimeter, 1500 cm, etc ...) 590 inches 49 feet 16 yards 0.0093 miles 0.008 nautical miles 3 rods 0.075 furlongs 1800 barleycorns 147.63 hands 66 spans 33 cubits 13 ells 8.2 fathoms 75 links 0.75 chains 0.0027 leauges 0.03 li 0.081 stadia 4.8e-16 parsecs 1e-10 astronomical units 5e-8 lightseconds 2.8e11 Bohr radiuses 9.2e35 Plank lenghts and probably most appropriately (being dutch): 1.5 roede In other words a stone's throw away. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Rocco Moretti wrote: Jack Diederich wrote: On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 01:36:42PM -0500, rbt wrote: Alex Martelli wrote: I don't think there was any official announcement, but it's true -- he sits about 15 meters away from me;-). For Americans: 15 meters is roughly 50 feet. Right, so that is about three and a half stone? Stone is a measure of weight, not distance. (14 pounds, ~6.35 kg) No, _meters_ are a measure of weight. 15 meters (150 decimeter, 1500 cm, etc ...) 590 inches 49 feet 147.63 hands 900.7 fingers 1150.64 toes ~3.5 stone qed geddit? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:14:16 -0600 in comp.lang.python, Rocco Moretti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] 15 meters (150 decimeter, 1500 cm, etc ...) 590 inches 49 feet 16 yards 0.0093 miles 0.008 nautical miles 3 rods 0.075 furlongs 1800 barleycorns 147.63 hands 66 spans 33 cubits 13 ells 8.2 fathoms 75 links 0.75 chains 0.0027 leauges 0.03 li 0.081 stadia 4.8e-16 parsecs 1e-10 astronomical units 5e-8 lightseconds 2.8e11 Bohr radiuses 9.2e35 Plank lenghts and probably most appropriately (being dutch): 1.5 roede In other words a stone's throw away. You forgot 8.81419673 smoots Regards, -=Dave -- Change is inevitable, progress is not. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:40:15 -0500, Peter Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: rbt wrote: Alex Martelli wrote: I don't think there was any official announcement, but it's true -- he sits about 15 meters away from me;-). For Americans: 15 meters is roughly 50 feet. Google can do that too, of course. wink http://www.google.com/search?q=convert+15+meters+to+feet (49.2125984 feet to be more precise) Actually that looks like it's based on the approximation of 25.4 mm/inch, whereas I believe the legally defined US conversion is 39.3700 inches/meter. They're close. British is 39.3701 for some reason. At least according to my dusty 37th Edition Handbook of Chemistry and Physics (c) 1955. Maybe things have changed since then ;-) 15e3/25.4/12 49.212598425196852 Appears to be the google number But the official conversion 1000/39.37 25.400050800101603 is not _exactly_ 25.4 mm/inch so the distance from Martellibot to BDFL should more exactly be 15*39.37/12 49.2124999 Send bug report to google ;-) Regards, Bengt Richter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Guido at Google
Nicola Musatti wrote: By the way, I hear that you've become collegues also with Matt Austern, formerly of Apple, and Danny Thorpe, formerly of Borland. I guess we mere mortals don't stand a chance of being hired, but if the trend continues there are going to be a lot of very interesting positions opening everywhere else :-) Ha! I'm still trying to figure out who let me in. Everyone has some chance. Of course, I'm going on vacation next week and there was talk about a one-way ticket to Mexico. The real question is will they let me *back* in? :-) n -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
