Re: Linux/Python Issues
Bruno Desthuilliers [EMAIL PROTECTED] skrev i en meddelelse news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : So, here's the basic scheme: - download the source tarball, preferably in /usr/local/src - unpack it - cd into the unpacked source directory - *carefully* read the README, INSTALL and other relevant docs - run ./configure with the relevant options - run make - run make install Wasn't too hard, was it ?-) It's a wee bit harder: Since he's got a package based distribution, the O.P. would do well to learn how to build source packages for that distribution otherwise he will eventually end up with a mess. The learning curve for packages is steep. For a Debian-based system the easiest way to roll custom packages is I.M.O. to use pbuilder so the system does not get totally polluted by build dependencies and other only-ever-used-once cruft. Pbuilder works on Ubuntu too - I have an old SUN Ultra SPARC 10 so very occasionally I need to package/rebuild src-packages some tool that is not in the distribution. And before you say it: yes indeed, it assumes you know how to use the command line, navigate your filesystem, copy/move things around, unpack an archive, read a text file etc... IOW, some more 'common *n*x knowledge' that you just can't hope to avoid learning if you want to properly use a *n*x system. Sorry. Same story on Windows, really. People just forget how hard that was to learn. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Linux/Python Issues
re being serious I am serious. I am seriously trying to develop a nice language for beginners. I was at Dartmouth in 1965 when BASIC was new. It let me use the computer without learning Fortran. It was very successful. I think it's past time for another one. I think we could have a lot more capability with more simplicity than you find in Visual Basic. re DLing source As a solution to the problem of wanting a program on my computer, it sucks. On Windows I'll DL an install package, accept a license agreement, click Next a few times (no, I can't make a cup of coffee because the minute I step away the Wizard will ask a question), ... With CNR the commitment is that I CAN walk away. I do not know who should be responsible for putting things in the warehouse. I do wish that the *n*x community would create some sensible standards so the 'our distro doesn't put things where others do' would stop being an issue. Looking in /usr/bin and its brethren makes c:\Program Files seem organized. re changing distros because apt-get could do the job I'll take your words for the superiority of Ubuntu. But I'll not change from one problem (can't find the python-devel that python.org says I need) to another (installing a new OS). I bought my Linspire computer with the OS installed. I've no interest in mastering the art of installing Linux. I'm a big fan of KDE, KATE and Konqueror and having a dozen desktops for a dozen projects. I do not miss crashes and viruses. I do not miss shelling out hundreds of bucks for an office suite. So for now I'll just pretend that Windows is desktop 13. A KVM helps. I'll remember that you don't type uptime in the DOS window. Oh, yeah. I'll remember that my NAV subscription expired. Gotta renew. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Linux/Python Issues
On 21 Feb, 13:04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: re DLing source As a solution to the problem of wanting a program on my computer, it sucks. It doesn't suck if you're just installing one program, but if there are a lot of dependencies it can quickly suck, yes. Even with systems that comprehensively manage dependencies like Gentoo's Portage (and unlike language-specific solutions such as easy_install and the CPAN tools) the convenience can become quickly overwhelmed by practical concerns such as whether your computer has enough CPU time available to compile all the updates coming in. On Windows I'll DL an install package, accept a license agreement, click Next a few times (no, I can't make a cup of coffee because the minute I step away the Wizard will ask a question), ... With CNR the commitment is that I CAN walk away. I do not know who should be responsible for putting things in the warehouse. I do wish that the *n*x community would create some sensible standards so the 'our distro doesn't put things where others do' would stop being an issue. Looking in /usr/bin and its brethren makes c:\Program Files seem organized. You aren't supposed to look in those directories. ;-) There are proposals for application directories such as the one proposed by the author of ROX Desktop, but on Debian-based distributions, the warehouse is the sum of the available repositories. I'll agree that the interfaces to the warehouse aren't very good, however: for a while, the Kynaptic application (a simple version of Synaptic for Kubuntu) was a fairly simple but convenient tool to retrieve packages, but then the developers got feature envy and added the bloat from Synaptic in order to forge the Adept application: a tool whose usability is now regarded as suspect even by those involved in pushing it into Kubuntu in the first place. I think that the best way of promoting packages would be to adopt a Web-like paradigm, allowing people to surf around the warehouse, presumably like what CNR does now, but just browsing the available packages from standard repositories (and without all the shopping cart nonsense). This way, at least users would get their exciting surfing and downloading experience (although they'd really be selecting, not downloading as such) whilst not downloading possibly dubious binaries from arbitrary sites on the Internet. Indeed, alongside the dependency management, the whole trust aspect of distribution repositories is arguably their greatest strength, since people continue to believe that it's alright to just download and e-mail stuff to each other as long as my virus scanner is running - a foolish attitude that caused numerous problems in at least one environment I've worked in, presumably because everyone clicked on the funny program in the e- mail message that got sent round. re changing distros because apt-get could do the job I'll take your words for the superiority of Ubuntu. But I'll not change from one problem (can't find the python-devel that python.org says I need) to another (installing a new OS). I bought my Linspire computer with the OS installed. I've no interest in mastering the art of installing Linux. I'm a big fan of KDE, KATE and Konqueror and having a dozen desktops for a dozen projects. I do not miss crashes and viruses. I do not miss shelling out hundreds of bucks for an office suite. I think you've either got to find the direct line to the underlying repositories (and hope that they're more up-to-date than CNR), or you've got to face the problem that your distribution isn't going to provide packages of recent versions of Python and other things. Not that long ago, I was still happily running a distribution from 2005, but it was ultimately a case of either backporting steadily larger numbers of packages, or installing everything from source, and outside the Python scene there are a number of packages that you really don't want to be installing from source unless you're willing to make a large investment of time, with frustration being the most typical reward. Maybe there's room for a Python backports project for older distributions, like the proposal for making Windows installers for third-party extensions, but this requires a certain amount of infrastructure and isn't a one-person job. Paul -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Linux/Python Issues
[EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : re being serious I am serious. I am seriously trying to develop a nice language for beginners. That's not what I was talking about. re DLing source As a solution to the problem of wanting a program on my computer, it sucks. On Windows I'll DL an install package, accept a license agreement, click Next a few times (no, I can't make a cup of coffee because the minute I step away the Wizard will ask a question), ... With CNR the commitment is that I CAN walk away. I do not know who should be responsible for putting things in the warehouse. Those who maintain the warehouse. I do wish that the *n*x community would create some sensible standards so the 'our distro doesn't put things where others do' There are such standards - but not anyone is following them. What you have to understand is that unix is not *one* OS, but a (quite large) family of OSs. would stop being an issue. Looking in /usr/bin and its brethren makes c:\Program Files seem organized. Your opinion. re changing distros because apt-get could do the job I'll take your words for the superiority of Ubuntu. But I'll not change from one problem (can't find the python-devel that python.org says I need) to another (installing a new OS). I bought my Linspire computer with the OS installed. I've no interest in mastering the art of installing Linux. Installing Ubuntu is quite straightforward. IMHO even simpler than installing any recent (ie = NT4) version of Windows. I'm a big fan of KDE, KATE and Konqueror and having a dozen desktops for a dozen projects. I do not miss crashes and viruses. I do not miss shelling out hundreds of bucks for an office suite. Fine. But anyway, you have to face the fact that your OS doesn't provide a proper package for recent Python versions, and that this is by no mean the responsability of the Python team. So you're left with the following options: - complain to the company selling Linspire until they provide this package - try to install Python from sources - install another OS -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Linux/Python Issues
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a solution to the problem of wanting a program on my computer, it sucks. On Windows I'll DL an install package, accept a license agreement, click Next a few times (no, I can't make a cup of coffee because the minute I step away the Wizard will ask a question), ... With CNR the commitment is that I CAN walk away. I do not know who should be responsible for putting things in the warehouse. The... maintainer perhaps? A.k.a. the distributor? I do wish that the *n*x community would create some sensible standards so the 'our distro doesn't put things where others do' would stop being an issue. There are certainly mory than fifty GNU/Linux and Unix flavours of different versions which are all POSIX compatible, but not binary compatible. Of Windows, there are very few versions which are mostly binary compatible, and widely used. Do you think the Python maintainers should create fifty different Python packages every release? The common software flow is: developer = distributor = user. But due to some cool tools compiling isn't something one can't learn by doing, since the developers already did the most for you; more or less you just have to get your environment right (dependencies) and hit start. I admit that's nothing for the I just want it to work!!!11 kind of people, but those should stick to better supported flavours. Looking in /usr/bin and its brethren makes c:\Program Files seem organized. I'm afraid not, since mixing executables, libraries and data in an unsorted directory tree is just horrible. POSIX compatible systems usually sort everything in directories where it belongs (/usr/bin, /usr/lib, /usr/share/*, ...) and employ a packet manager to keep the system in a well-defined state. Self-compiled stuff can be incorporated or just installed to the /usr/local subhierarchy. The Windows way, contrarily, is: - All program files go anywhere on the hard disk in a custom directory tree. (Recently, they are often installed to something like Program Files or a translated equivalent, luckily.) - Most programs use a custom installer which alone has the task to track files installed to the system; the system itself usually has no knowledge about it (apart from how to call the uninstaller). Dependency handling is completely up to the applications themselves. - Often, libraries and/or drivers are installed somewhere in %WINDIR% and get lost ... no wonder Windows systems are commonly reinstalled quite often compared to POSIX compatible systems. Additionally, exotic or older program in Windows are often bundled in a (today) malfunctioning installer. Older programs for POSIX compatible OS are often available in source which often need only few adaptations to compile properly. I've no interest in mastering the art of installing Linux. I'd appreciate if you weren't complaining about things you didn't know ... Regards, Björn -- BOFH excuse #297: Too many interrupts -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Linux/Python Issues
On 21 fév, 13:57, Paul Boddie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 21 Feb, 13:04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OT digression=gentoo advocacy re DLing source As a solution to the problem of wanting a program on my computer, it sucks. It doesn't suck if you're just installing one program, but if there are a lot of dependencies it can quickly suck, yes. Even with systems that comprehensively manage dependencies like Gentoo's Portage (and unlike language-specific solutions such as easy_install and the CPAN tools) the convenience can become quickly overwhelmed by practical concerns such as whether your computer has enough CPU time available to compile all the updates coming in. Hmm... I'm actually an happy gentoo user, and my computer is now something like five years old. So yes, sure, I do not recompile OpenOffice everyday, but with ccache installed, keeping the sytem up to date is definitively not a problem. /OT -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Linux/Python Issues
[EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : Paul Boddie wrote: The whole CNR stuff and the proprietary software slant of Linspire obscures the solution, in my opinion. Thanks for all your help, Paul. CNR, which is now free, is absolutely marvelous when it's got what you need. If Python2.5 were in the warehouse, I'd have clicked, gone to make a cup of coffee and the appropriate icon would be on my desktop when I came back. If I were Python.org I'd not consider anything ready for release until it was in the warehouse. It's not the project's team duty to build specific packages for each and every possible platform / distro / package manager. Debian, Unbuntu, Mandriva, RedHat, Gentoo etc all build their own specific packages for the projects they want to be part of their distro. Bad luck you choose a distro that doesn't do a proper job here. May I suggest you give Ubuntu a try ? You might find it very welcoming to outsiders !-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Linux/Python Issues
[EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IOW: all this is assumed to be common *n*x knowledge. Both GNOME and KDE put Windows to shame. An old Windows guy, like me, can just start using either one without needing 'common *n*x knowledge.' Err... Ever tried to compile them from sources ?-) Too bad the *n*x community isn't more welcoming to outsiders. C'mon, Martin, be serious. Compiling softwares from sources requires at least some minimal 'insider' knowledge *whatever the platform*. You can't seriously hope each and every source distrib to provide newbie-oriented doc for what's obviously a power-user operation. Or do you imply that there should be Windows installations instructions explaining the concepts of window, mouse, etc ? FWIW, I haven't seen so far any source distrib of any software targeting the Windows platform that didn't assume some 'common Windows knowledge'. You label yourself as an old Windows guy. This means you have a good knowledge of this platform. How long did it take to gain this knowledge ? More than a couple weeks, I bet ? FWIW, a couple weeks is the time it took me - coming from Mac then Windows - to be able to compile Python (or almost any other software) from sources on linux - and most of this time was spent solving dependancies issues badly managed by the particular distro I was using by that time, which wasn't the more standard nor documented one. So, here's the basic scheme: - download the source tarball, preferably in /usr/local/src - unpack it - cd into the unpacked source directory - *carefully* read the README, INSTALL and other relevant docs - run ./configure with the relevant options - run make - run make install Wasn't too hard, was it ?-) And before you say it: yes indeed, it assumes you know how to use the command line, navigate your filesystem, copy/move things around, unpack an archive, read a text file etc... IOW, some more 'common *n*x knowledge' that you just can't hope to avoid learning if you want to properly use a *n*x system. Sorry. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Linux/Python Issues
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: CNR, which is now free, is absolutely marvelous when it's got what you need. If Python2.5 were in the warehouse, I'd have clicked, gone to make a cup of coffee and the appropriate icon would be on my desktop when I came back. If I were Python.org I'd not consider anything ready for release until it was in the warehouse. Er, so how is it supposed to get into the warehouse if it's not first released from python.org ? -- \S -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chaos.org.uk/~sion/ Frankly I have no feelings towards penguins one way or the other -- Arthur C. Clarke her nu becomeþ se bera eadward ofdun hlæddre heafdes bæce bump bump bump -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Linux/Python Issues
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: CNR, which is now free, is absolutely marvelous when it's got what you need. If Python2.5 were in the warehouse, I'd have clicked, gone to make a cup of coffee and the appropriate icon would be on my desktop when I came back. Why don't you switch to a distribution which offers Python 2.5 binaries? All major ones do (from Debian and Ubuntu I know it for sure). And there's no time for coffee unless you've got a /really/ slow computer. If I were Python.org I'd not consider anything ready for release until it was in the warehouse. Sorry, the python.org warehouse only offers construction sets. If you order it, you'll have to build it yourself the same way you would build all other kits. This requires a bit of knowledge and experience. So why not use a distribution that doesn't force the users to build recent software but do it themselves for their users? Regards, Björn -- BOFH excuse #326: We need a licensed electrician to replace the light bulbs in the computer room. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Linux/Python Issues
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Both GNOME and KDE put Windows to shame. An old Windows guy, like me, can just start using either one without needing 'common *n*x knowledge.' Sure, go and compile them from the sources. The X server too, please (I got half insane from that once). Too bad the *n*x community isn't more welcoming to outsiders. I think the automobile community could be more welcoming to outsiders either. I just can refill fuel and perhaps change motor oil, but assembling a car from its components is too hard for me. Evil automobilers, why do they make it so complicated! 8) Regards, Björn -- BOFH excuse #362: Plasma conduit breach -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Linux/Python Issues
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IOW: all this is assumed to be common *n*x knowledge. Both GNOME and KDE put Windows to shame. An old Windows guy, like me, can just start using either one without needing 'common *n*x knowledge.' Too bad the *n*x community isn't more welcoming to outsiders. Linspire's CNR puts Windows DLs to shame, but Python2.5 isn't there. Ugh. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Linux/Python Issues
Paul Boddie wrote: Here's one page which probably tells you stuff you already know: http://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide/Download Thank you! It says I need Python (which I've got) and the Python-devel package, which sounds like it might include Tkinter and IDLE. Now if only I knew where to get the Python-devel package ... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Linux/Python Issues
On 18 Feb, 16:39, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul Boddie wrote: Here's one page which probably tells you stuff you already know: http://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide/Download Thank you! It says I need Python (which I've got) and the Python-devel package, which sounds like it might include Tkinter and IDLE. Now if only I knew where to get the Python-devel package ... It would probably be the python-dev package if Linspire really is based on Debian. However, that only gives you the Python headers, as far as I remember. You would also need to get the packages for Tcl/Tk including those providing the headers. And IDLE and Tkinter are separate packages, too. But generally, just asking for the idle or idle-python2.5 packages will give you the stack of packages you need without any further thought required. That said, if the problem is that Linspire doesn't provide Python 2.5 as a package, then you're back to installing the Tcl/Tk packages and then building from source, configuring, building and installing Python as mentioned earlier. You could instead attempt to port the generic Debian package to Linspire, but this isn't for the timid. ;-) If finding Tcl/Tk packages is also a problem, you could build Tcl/Tk from scratch, too - something I've had to do in the distant past on operating systems like Solaris. Then, it's a matter of telling Python's configure program where you installed the Tcl/Tk headers and libraries. Paul P.S. I'm not sure if I can advise you on the specifics around Linspire. Ubuntu and Debian are quite transparent, and you can quite easily find packages for them on packages.ubuntu.com and packages.debian.org respectively. The whole CNR stuff and the proprietary software slant of Linspire obscures the solution, in my opinion. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Linux/Python Issues
Paul Boddie wrote: The whole CNR stuff and the proprietary software slant of Linspire obscures the solution, in my opinion. Thanks for all your help, Paul. CNR, which is now free, is absolutely marvelous when it's got what you need. If Python2.5 were in the warehouse, I'd have clicked, gone to make a cup of coffee and the appropriate icon would be on my desktop when I came back. If I were Python.org I'd not consider anything ready for release until it was in the warehouse. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Linux/Python Issues
[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IOW: all this is assumed to be common *n*x knowledge. Both GNOME and KDE put Windows to shame. An old Windows guy, like me, can just start using either one without needing 'common *n*x knowledge.' Too bad the *n*x community isn't more welcoming to outsiders. Linspire's CNR puts Windows DLs to shame, but Python2.5 isn't there. Ugh. I might destroying pink dreams of windows cozyness, but to my knowledge *compiling* something under windows is at least as hard, if not harder, than under linux. As I said - I use ubuntu, and do issue an apt-get install python2.5 and afterwards I end up with a python2.5 including Tkinter and whatnot. You deliberately chose to do otherwise, goind the hard way - don't expect to be your hands being hold. Diez -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Linux/Python Issues
I went to Python.org, DL'd Python 2.5 source code per the usual inadequate instructions and ran the make files successfully (sort of). Python 2.5 works fine. But from Tkinter import * gets a What's Tkinter? message. IDLE's no where to be found. What's not in the instructions is what directory should I be in when I download? Where should I put the .bz2 file? What dir for running the make files? At present I'm working on a Windows machine, endangering what's left of my sanity. I'm using Linspire, so Debian directories are probably the ones that will get me up and running. Barring specific knowledge, even some good guesses would be appreciated. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Linux/Python Issues
On 17 Feb, 20:38, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I went to Python.org, DL'd Python 2.5 source code per the usual inadequate instructions and ran the make files successfully (sort of). Python 2.5 works fine. But from Tkinter import * gets a What's Tkinter? message. IDLE's no where to be found. It could be that you don't have the Tcl/Tk libraries installed, or perhaps the header files for Tcl/Tk aren't installed. If so, Python wouldn't detect them when being configured itself, and then you probably wouldn't have the Tkinter extension installed. What's not in the instructions is what directory should I be in when I download? Where should I put the .bz2 file? What dir for running the make files? At present I'm working on a Windows machine, endangering what's left of my sanity. I'm using Linspire, so Debian directories are probably the ones that will get me up and running. Barring specific knowledge, even some good guesses would be appreciated. Here's one page which probably tells you stuff you already know: http://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide/Download On Ubuntu, which is Debian-based, the python-tk package should make Tkinter available, so you could look for that in your repositories. As for building from source, you can put the .bz2 file anywhere, and unpack it anywhere that isn't going to make a mess for you to clean up later. For example, you could download the Python .bz2 file into a downloads directory residing in your home directory, then you could do this: mkdir software cd software tar jxf ~/downloads/Python-2.5.1.tar.bz2 cd Python-2.5.1 ./configure make You can then do a make install with the right privileges. Paul -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Linux/Python Issues
On 17 fév, 20:38, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (snip) What's not in the instructions is what directory should I be in when I download? Where should I put the .bz2 file? What dir for running the make files? Neither are the basic shell commands like cd, tar etc. Nothing Python- specific here, and I'm afraid you'll have the very same problem with any source distrib of any oss project. IOW: all this is assumed to be common *n*x knowledge. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Linux/Python Issues
[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: I went to Python.org, DL'd Python 2.5 source code per the usual inadequate instructions and ran the make files successfully (sort of). Python 2.5 works fine. But from Tkinter import * gets a What's Tkinter? message. IDLE's no where to be found. What's not in the instructions is what directory should I be in when I download? Where should I put the .bz2 file? What dir for running the make files? At present I'm working on a Windows machine, endangering what's left of my sanity. I'm using Linspire, so Debian directories are probably the ones that will get me up and running. Barring specific knowledge, even some good guesses would be appreciated. Nothing special, just reading the configure --help will help you. You need Tcl/Tk + possible devel-packages so the header-files are found. I'm not an expert on the required versions, but that should be told you somewhere. But I doubt that there isn't a python2.5 already available for your distro - especially if it's debian based. Ubuntu for example has 2.5 as default. Diez -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
