Re: Linux Journal Survey
Albert van der Horst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Russ P. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 23, 7:42 pm, George Sakkis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 23, 8:14 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users who want to vote for Python. http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101 ... 18. What is your favorite programming language? (15 choices, Python not included) 19. What is your favorite scripting language? o Python o Perl (5 more choices) Python is much more than a scripting language (whatever this means, other than a semi-derogatory term used by clueless PHBs). Sorry, I'll pass. George Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I think of a Python script as a flat source file with no (or few) functions or classes, whereas a full-blown program has functions and classes. Both have their place. I agree it is unfortunate that the Linux World poll classified Python as a scripting language. I suspect they did that because Python is not (typically) compiled and does not have static typing. In the context of linux a programming language is a language that generates an ELF binary executable to be stored in a /.../bin/ directory. A scripting language is a language whose programs are normally distributed in human-readable form. It is appropriate to call So a scripting language is a language that is usually used for Open Source software while a programming language is usually used for ClosedSource software? What kind of language has C been in the good old days when gcc produced aout binaries instead of ELF? such a program a script. If the first two characters is #! and the execution bit is set, it is a script in the linux sense. Thanks to the binfmt_misc kernel module you can execute python byte code just like you execute native code: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~% bin/hello Hello world! [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~% file bin/hello bin/hello: python 2.5 byte-compiled [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~% head -n1 bin/hello ³ò So as far as I can tell it boils down to a clear technical distinction IMHO it's neither a clear nor a useful one. Florian -- http://www.florian-diesch.de/ --- ** Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature, please! ** --- -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Linux Journal Survey
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Russ P. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 23, 7:42 pm, George Sakkis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 23, 8:14 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users who want to vote for Python. http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101 ... 18. What is your favorite programming language? (15 choices, Python not included) 19. What is your favorite scripting language? o Python o Perl (5 more choices) Python is much more than a scripting language (whatever this means, other than a semi-derogatory term used by clueless PHBs). Sorry, I'll pass. George Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I think of a Python script as a flat source file with no (or few) functions or classes, whereas a full-blown program has functions and classes. Both have their place. I agree it is unfortunate that the Linux World poll classified Python as a scripting language. I suspect they did that because Python is not (typically) compiled and does not have static typing. In the context of linux a programming language is a language that generates an ELF binary executable to be stored in a /.../bin/ directory. A scripting language is a language whose programs are normally distributed in human-readable form. It is appropriate to call such a program a script. If the first two characters is #! and the execution bit is set, it is a script in the linux sense. So as far as I can tell it boils down to a clear technical distinction, and I'm sure they didn't mean offence. Groetjes Albert -- -- Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS Economic growth -- like all pyramid schemes -- ultimately falters. [EMAIL PROTECTED]arc.xs4all.nl =n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Linux Journal Survey
Albert van der Horst wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Russ P. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 23, 7:42 pm, George Sakkis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 23, 8:14 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users who want to vote for Python. http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101 ... 18. What is your favorite programming language? (15 choices, Python not included) 19. What is your favorite scripting language? o Python o Perl (5 more choices) Python is much more than a scripting language (whatever this means, other than a semi-derogatory term used by clueless PHBs). Sorry, I'll pass. George Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I think of a Python script as a flat source file with no (or few) functions or classes, whereas a full-blown program has functions and classes. Both have their place. I agree it is unfortunate that the Linux World poll classified Python as a scripting language. I suspect they did that because Python is not (typically) compiled and does not have static typing. In the context of linux a programming language is a language that generates an ELF binary executable to be stored in a /.../bin/ directory. A scripting language is a language whose programs are normally distributed in human-readable form. It is appropriate to call such a program a script. If the first two characters is #! and the execution bit is set, it is a script in the linux sense. So as far as I can tell it boils down to a clear technical distinction, and I'm sure they didn't mean offence. What you describe as a scripting language is normally referred to as a interpreted language. Of course with the introduction of virtual machines we can no longer talk about compiled languages unambiguously. Compiling used to mean compiling to machine code, but alas no longer. Scripting language has always had a fairly nebulous meaning. regards Steve -- Steve Holden+1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Linux Journal Survey
On Feb 2, 12:03 pm, Albert van der Horst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Russ P. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 23, 7:42 pm, George Sakkis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 23, 8:14 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users who want to vote for Python. http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101 ... 18. What is your favorite programming language? (15 choices, Python not included) 19. What is your favorite scripting language? o Python o Perl (5 more choices) Python is much more than a scripting language (whatever this means, other than a semi-derogatory term used by clueless PHBs). Sorry, I'll pass. George Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I think of a Python script as a flat source file with no (or few) functions or classes, whereas a full-blown program has functions and classes. Both have their place. I agree it is unfortunate that the Linux World poll classified Python as a scripting language. I suspect they did that because Python is not (typically) compiled and does not have static typing. In the context of linux a programming language is a language that generates an ELF binary executable to be stored in a /.../bin/ directory. A scripting language is a language whose programs are normally distributed in human-readable form. It is appropriate to call such a program a script. If the first two characters is #! and the execution bit is set, it is a script in the linux sense. So as far as I can tell it boils down to a clear technical distinction, and I'm sure they didn't mean offence. Java doesn't compile to ELF binaries, last time I checked. Carl Banks -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Linux Journal Survey
On 3 Feb, 00:45, Carl Banks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Java doesn't compile to ELF binaries, last time I checked. http://gcc.gnu.org/java/ Paul -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Linux Journal Survey
On Jan 24, 4:42 am, George Sakkis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 23, 8:14 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users who want to vote for Python. http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101 ... 18. What is your favorite programming language? (15 choices, Python not included) 19. What is your favorite scripting language? o Python o Perl (5 more choices) Python is much more than a scripting language (whatever this means, other than a semi-derogatory term used by clueless PHBs). Sorry, I'll pass. George There is an optional field other language where you can insert Python as well. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Linux Journal Survey
On Jan 23, 7:42 pm, George Sakkis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 23, 8:14 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users who want to vote for Python. http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101 ... 18. What is your favorite programming language? (15 choices, Python not included) 19. What is your favorite scripting language? o Python o Perl (5 more choices) Python is much more than a scripting language (whatever this means, other than a semi-derogatory term used by clueless PHBs). Sorry, I'll pass. George Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I think of a Python script as a flat source file with no (or few) functions or classes, whereas a full-blown program has functions and classes. Both have their place. I agree it is unfortunate that the Linux World poll classified Python as a scripting language. I suspect they did that because Python is not (typically) compiled and does not have static typing. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Linux Journal Survey
On 24 Jan, 04:42, George Sakkis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 23, 8:14 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users who want to vote for Python. http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101 18. What is your favorite programming language? 19. What is your favorite scripting language? 20. What is your favourite colour? ;-) Python is much more than a scripting language (whatever this means, other than a semi-derogatory term used by clueless PHBs). Sorry, I'll pass. Well, LJ isn't my chosen reading material any more, but a write-in vote sends the appropriate message in this case. I anticipate the usual C/C++ is the favourite programming language on Linux routine when the results get published but, as I wrote, LJ passed the point of no subscription some time ago. Paul -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Linux Journal Survey
want to vote for Python. http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101 18. What is your favorite programming language? (15 choices, Python not included) I'm not sure why some folks have their knickers in a knot...I took the survey and there was an Other box, so I just wrote in Python for my favorite programming language. I mean, Basic, Lisp, and Prolog make it in there...I use Python for programming a heckuva lot more than I use any of the others. 19. What is your favorite scripting language? o Python and answered Python for this question too. -tkc -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Linux Journal Survey
The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users who want to vote for Python. http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Linux Journal Survey
On Jan 23, 8:14 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users who want to vote for Python. http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101 ... 18. What is your favorite programming language? (15 choices, Python not included) 19. What is your favorite scripting language? o Python o Perl (5 more choices) Python is much more than a scripting language (whatever this means, other than a semi-derogatory term used by clueless PHBs). Sorry, I'll pass. George -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Terminology: script versus program (was: Linux Journal Survey)
George Sakkis [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Jan 23, 8:14 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users who want to vote for Python. http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101 ... 18. What is your favorite programming language? (15 choices, Python not included) 19. What is your favorite scripting language? o Python o Perl (5 more choices) Python is much more than a scripting language (whatever this means, other than a semi-derogatory term used by clueless PHBs). Sorry, I'll pass. I agree entirely. The term script has the strong connotation of a limited-purpose program designed to solve a problem expressed almost entirely as a simple series of steps. Languages that are often used to write such scripts are usually referred to as scripting languages, which becomes a denigration because such a language need not have support for much else. In contrast, the term program (and hence programming language) implies support for a much broader set of practices and solutions. This term seems quite prevalent among the Python core developers, unfortunately. The 'distutils' module even has the term 'script' used in its interface, to refer to the programs that are to be distributed. -- \ Money is always to be found when men are to be sent to the | `\ frontiers to be destroyed: when the object is to preserve them, | _o__) it is no longer so. -- Voltaire, _Dictionnaire Philosophique_ | Ben Finney -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Terminology: script versus program (was: Linux Journal Survey)
On 24 Jan, 04:59, Ben Finney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: George Sakkis [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Jan 23, 8:14 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users who want to vote for Python. http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101 ... 18. What is your favorite programming language? (15 choices, Python not included) 19. What is your favorite scripting language? o Python o Perl (5 more choices) Python is much more than a scripting language (whatever this means, other than a semi-derogatory term used by clueless PHBs). Sorry, I'll pass. I agree entirely. The term script has the strong connotation of a limited-purpose program designed to solve a problem expressed almost entirely as a simple series of steps. Languages that are often used to write such scripts are usually referred to as scripting languages, which becomes a denigration because such a language need not have support for much else. In contrast, the term program (and hence programming language) implies support for a much broader set of practices and solutions. This term seems quite prevalent among the Python core developers, unfortunately. The 'distutils' module even has the term 'script' used in its interface, to refer to the programs that are to be distributed. -- \ Money is always to be found when men are to be sent to the | `\ frontiers to be destroyed: when the object is to preserve them, | _o__) it is no longer so. -- Voltaire, _Dictionnaire Philosophique_ | Ben Finney Hi George, Ben, In the past I have taken the high ground by arguing that the usual tasks associated with scripting are very important and that languages like Python/Ruby can script as well as write substantial programs in the non-scripting sense. Therefore, if their language of choice does not encompass scripting then it is a lesser language. 'They' may look down on scripting but a lot of that is a mixture of ignorance and envy :-) - Paddy. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
