[issue20695] test_urllibnet.urlretrieveNetworkTests fails due to new python.org website
Roundup Robot added the comment: New changeset a5247ea950d5 by Benjamin Peterson in branch '3.4': merge 3.3 (#20695) http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/a5247ea950d5 -- ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue20695 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue20695] test_urllibnet.urlretrieveNetworkTests fails due to new python.org website
New submission from Eric Naeseth: The www.python.org website was just redesigned, and apparently is running on some new infrastructure which always responds to `GET /` requests with a body using `Content-Encoding: gzip`. Python's test suite includes some tests which fetch http://www.python.org/, and some of the tests in `test.test_urllibnet.urlretrieveNetworkTests` are now failing, because they expect the server to return un-gzip'd UTF-8 text. :( The full test output (from Python 3.3.4) is attached. -- components: Tests files: python-3.3.4-urllibnet-failure.txt messages: 211679 nosy: ericnaeseth priority: normal severity: normal status: open title: test_urllibnet.urlretrieveNetworkTests fails due to new python.org website type: compile error versions: Python 3.3 Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file34150/python-3.3.4-urllibnet-failure.txt ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue20695 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue20695] test_urllibnet.urlretrieveNetworkTests fails due to new python.org website
Eric Naeseth added the comment: In addition, the test_reporthook and test_data_header tests try to retrieve a Python logo image from http://www.python.org/community/logos/python-logo-master-v3-TM.png. That is now a 404. -- ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue20695 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue20695] test_urllibnet.urlretrieveNetworkTests fails due to new python.org website
Roundup Robot added the comment: New changeset 0199bff14c5c by Benjamin Peterson in branch '2.7': update logo url (#20695) http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/0199bff14c5c New changeset d4b9692ac75f by Benjamin Peterson in branch '3.1': update logo url (#20695) http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/d4b9692ac75f New changeset 29b1eebecb8e by Benjamin Peterson in branch '3.2': update logo url (#20695) http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/29b1eebecb8e New changeset c9261cf05db6 by Benjamin Peterson in branch '3.3': merge 3.2 (#20695) http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/c9261cf05db6 New changeset 0399e842073a by Benjamin Peterson in branch 'default': merge 3.3 (#20695) http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/0399e842073a -- nosy: +python-dev ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue20695 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
[issue20695] test_urllibnet.urlretrieveNetworkTests fails due to new python.org website
Changes by Benjamin Peterson bp+pyb...@benjamin-peterson.org: -- resolution: - fixed status: open - closed ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue20695 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-bugs-list/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: New python.org website
robin schreef: Michael Tobis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While the new one is much better than the old website, the logo strikes me as awful. As far as the layout goes, I still find it too busy. Specifically there are too many fonts on the one page. But I have already made that point, and did an entire version of the homepage, which the team have taken as input. +1 on that. Last weekend I had a quick look at the stylesheet and removed most of the font-style and font-size declarations. It made the site look much better, IMO. If I can find a few spare minutes I might try to do put a bit more effort in it and send it in. -- If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants. -- Isaac Newton Roel Schroeven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
Michael Tobis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While the new one is much better than the old website, the logo strikes me as awful. I personally believe the new logo is miles better than the old one. Whether you see snakes or a plus-sign or a yin-yang, it has a nice harmonious look that still captures some playfulness. Besides, why is everyone fixated on snakes? Python the language has nothing to do with python the constrictor. As far as the layout goes, I still find it too busy. Specifically there are too many fonts on the one page. But I have already made that point, and did an entire version of the homepage, which the team have taken as input. Anyone who has the time can do the same, rather than simply comment from the sidelines. The best websites never stay still, but are constantly evolving. I hope python.org can do the same, and go from strength to strength. Congratulations to all involved! - robin noisetheatre.blogspot.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
I much prefer the look and feel of the potential Ruby websites being developed at the moment. The Python site is very corporate and academic which could put many early adopters off. I'm sure you've all heard accusations that Python doesn't have the marketing drive of Ruby. Perhaps this is an example where we could do with taking a leaf out of Ruby's book? ( http://redhanded.hobix.com/redesign2005/)-Doug Bromleyblog.straw-dogs.co.uk On 8 Mar 2006 14:20:29 -0800, Kay Schluehr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael Tobis wrote: No one of the complainers and negativists do claim that they could do it much better. Indeed, I do not have to be able to write a particular program to notice it has bugs. On the other hand, (since I think the design, while not brilliant, is good) fixing the logo is something that can be achieved without too much fuss. But I think at times it might be usefull to consult professional aid. In the case of the logo design, I am not sure I agree. I think the twisted logo http://saph.twistedmatrix.com/blog/archives/twisted.png and the PyCon logo http://mirrors.ccs.neu.edu/Python/pub/old-www/pics/pycon-logo.gif were probably not designed by professional designers but rather by people who appreciate Python, and yet do have more appeal to the community and the outside world alike. If we are going to use a snake motif, we should use snakes that look like snakes.Maybe its time for me to abandone this discussion. If you and othersfeel quite well represented by a pasty and wordy snake than go for it. I do neither feel embraced nor bitten by it. And I don't just mean thelogo. We can do an awfull lot of comparisons with pages that failed butthis doesn't bring forth anything.This evening we talked at the Hofbraeuhaus at Munich about Michelangelo whose sixtine chapel images where once overpainted because his figuresappeared naked as god created them. But maybe he was wrong and hiscustomer, the pope, was right and they were actually born with a leaf covered their pubic hairs? The pope had to take responsibility and hadto appease possible and real critics. We can assume he was far frombeing an idiot but a serious man - a politician. As a serious person myself I'm always a little splitted between Michelangelo and the pope.My own idealism expects Michelangelo doing such outstanding things thatit is beyond anything. Nothing could be better than having the uptights as the most severe enemies. What a fun! But as it seems my politicalparty is guided by ordinary indifferent humans as well and Michelangelomay be as much attracted by it as I am by e.g. the german socialdemocratic party? So I should track back and rethink the professional aid which might be not what I'm really looking for. Guido feels a deepjoy about the resonance between Python and an programmer and artist -Juergen Scheible - who likes the language, feels inspired by it and creates a little artwork for Nokia 60s. So there is some inversion inthe right direction. Suddenly Python appears a bit distorted withinanother context and it becomes sexy again. Should we talk about Apple next ... ?--http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
Michael Tobis wrote: [...] On the other hand, (since I think the design, while not brilliant, is good) fixing the logo is something that can be achieved without too much fuss. The obviously perfect logo would be Kaa's face: http://disney.go.com/vault/archives/villains/kaa/kaa.html After all even my two and a half year old kids know that Kaa is *the* python. However I suspect it would take a lot of money to license that. [...] Finally, I disagree that the current logo is better than the neutral but consistently used php logo or the very clever java coffee mug logo, and notably the Ruby on Rails logo, which is first rate. The Java logo has the problem that it is not universal: in Italy for instance the name Java has no connection with coffee. Cheers, Nicola Musatti -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Alternative style sheets - Re: New python.org website
Phoe6 wrote: beta.python.org evolved very nice and noticed today the new python.org website going live. There is a change in the look n feel, wherein it looks more official and maximum possible information about python is now directly accessible from the home page itself. Kudoes to the design team. I also feel this is a big improvement. I know that a web site like this needs constant nurturing, so I hope that it's been developed in such as way that it will be easier to maintain it and to involve more contributors. Concerning style sheets, it's pretty trivial to make several style sheets and let people use the one they like best. If we enable that, it should also be simple to see from the web site statistics which style sheet people prefer. Then we can use the most popular style sheet as the default! Since people have different tastes, different screens with various resolutions and colors etc, darker or lighter rooms, might want different styles for on-screen viewing and on paper etc, I think it would be a good idea to have several styes even if there is no ambivalence concerning what look we want. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
Nicola Musatti wrote: The obviously perfect logo would be Kaa's face: http://disney.go.com/vault/archives/villains/kaa/kaa.html The Soviet version is better, and I think most of the Maugli movies are made before 1973, which means that they aren't copyrighted outside the former Soviet Union. (Disclaimer: IANAL) I'm not sure either version really works as a logo though. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
I don't mind the logo or the colour scheme, but I do mind the first paragraph in bolded text. What, you figure the readers can't figure out how to find What is Python? by themselves? Bold should be used sparingly. This is serious overuse. Otherwise, I like it. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
msoulier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't mind the logo or the colour scheme, but I do mind the first paragraph in bolded text. What, you figure the readers can't figure out how to find What is Python? by themselves? Bold should be used sparingly. This is serious overuse. I'm OK with bold for stuff like this, but the wording could be better. The last sentence: Many Python programmers report substantial productivity gains and feel the language encourages the development of higher quality, more maintainable code. reads like a drug warning label, carefully crafted to not run afoul of regulatory constraints. Just say what you want to say: Python programmers are more productive and the language encourages development of higher quality, more maintainable code. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
Roy Smith wrote: I'm OK with bold for stuff like this, but the wording could be better. The last sentence: Many Python programmers report substantial productivity gains and feel the language encourages the development of higher quality, more maintainable code. reads like a drug warning label, carefully crafted to not run afoul of regulatory constraints. Just say what you want to say: Python programmers are more productive and the language encourages development of higher quality, more maintainable code. Please add a new ticket to the tracker: http://psf.pollenation.net/cgi-bin/trac.cgi/newticket (You can get to that from Report website bug - add a new ticket) STeVe -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
Kay Schluehr wrote: This evening we talked at the Hofbraeuhaus at Munich about Michelangelo whose sixtine chapel images where once overpainted because his figures appeared naked as god created them. That's why Michelangelo didn't design the new Python web site: because Google wouldn't display it with SafeSearch turned on. PJDM -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
projecktzero wrote: I think the new site is great. I really don't understand all the nit picking that's going on from the armchair web designers. It's a nice site. It is not ugly, and its easy to navigate. *much* better than the old site, -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
Comparing: http://www.python.org/ http://www.perl.org/ http://www.java.org/ http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/ http://java.sun.com/ http://www.php.net/ It is pretty easy to see that http://www.python.org/ is both prettier than the rest, and has a far better structure. -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
Kay Schluehr wrote: The new website is to blah. It's so light colored across the whole thing that it kind of just melts away in my mind. Maybe giving a little color in the menu bar on the right would help. My experience is that white is a bad background color when over used. I agree. The text is too loud and the colors are too low. Otherwise Fredrik Lundh reminded me that there are no good PL language home pages out there at all. This shouldn't excuse a mediocre design but it softened my annoyance a little. unfortunately, I don't think but the others are no better is an acceptable goal for the Python universe I live in... after all, what's the fun with that? /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
The first two links on the News and Announcements are dead -- they get you a 404 File Not Found. I've opened a critical ticket on this in the bug tracker. I see there's another ticket open already on a similar issue. My recommendation would be that if these can't be resolved in very short order. to revert to the old site until these are fixed. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
Roy Smith wrote: The first two links on the News and Announcements are dead -- they get you a 404 File Not Found. I've opened a critical ticket on this in the bug tracker. I see there's another ticket open already on a similar issue. My recommendation would be that if these can't be resolved in very short order. to revert to the old site until these are fixed. fixed -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
Hear hear! I like it. It's not perfect but is much better than the old one in all ways. A huge improvement. Thanks to the website team. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
I don't necessarily like it, but I think the true test is whether a pointy haired manager type can be convinced that python can be taken seriously as a welcome addition to the programming arsenal. I think the site re-design will aid in that area more so than the previous one. I'm not feeling the new logo though. But it's better than what I can produce in an svg editor/-- Thomas G. Willis--- http://i-see-sound.comhttp://tomwillis.sonicdiscord.comAmerica, still more rights than North Korea -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
I like it personally. Nice clean look and feel, and the logo is much better than the old cheesy green python. Has a more professional feel to it, which can be important if you want to use the language outside of your free time... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
No one of the complainers and negativists do claim that they could do it much better. Indeed, I do not have to be able to write a particular program to notice it has bugs. On the other hand, (since I think the design, while not brilliant, is good) fixing the logo is something that can be achieved without too much fuss. But I think at times it might be usefull to consult professional aid. In the case of the logo design, I am not sure I agree. I think the twisted logo http://saph.twistedmatrix.com/blog/archives/twisted.png and the PyCon logo http://mirrors.ccs.neu.edu/Python/pub/old-www/pics/pycon-logo.gif were probably not designed by professional designers but rather by people who appreciate Python, and yet do have more appeal to the community and the outside world alike. If we are going to use a snake motif, we should use snakes that look like snakes. I suspect the current shy-tadpoles design was outsourced. (At one point NBC abandoned their very recognizable peacock for a totally vapid geometric design, for which they paid many thousands of dollars. (Including a huge settlement with a Nebraska TV station whose logo they had essentially copied) Eventually they reverted to a somewhat stylized peacock, which was a much better idea.) See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Broadcasting_Company_logos It's also interesting in passing to notice that another one of NBC's non-peacock logos was called the snake, for reasons that will escape anyone who has not seen it animated. In any case, I will probably take a little more time to make the case that the shy tadpoles logo is a mistake. Finally, I disagree that the current logo is better than the neutral but consistently used php logo or the very clever java coffee mug logo, and notably the Ruby on Rails logo, which is first rate. mt -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
On 8 Mar 2006 07:47:15 -0800, Michael Tobis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No one of the complainers and negativists do claim that they could do it much better. Indeed, I do not have to be able to write a particular program to notice it has bugs. On the other hand, (since I think the design, while not brilliant, is good) fixing the logo is something that can be achieved without too much fuss. [snip] While I don't dislike the logo, there has been a lot of grumbling about it. Dislike has been due to aesthetic reasons, or the resemblance to a cross, or general it's not as good as x. So I gave it another close look, and I wondered if this would improve it: Retain the stylized blue snake. Remove the yellow snake, but keep its body that's in line horizontally with the blue snake's, and color it blue. Result: one snake with a horizontal tail that curls up slightly at the right edge. Or, again remove the yellow snake, but have the blue snake's tail go down, and lengthen the head to be flush with the left edge of the logo. Result: a stylized snake that resembles the letter P. (maybe too corny) Both ideas lose the symmetry, but retain the simplicity, of the current logo. And hopefully will look like a snake instead of tadpoles (??) Or, we just grow to like the logo as is and get back to programming ;) Rob -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
On 3/8/06, Robert Boyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 8 Mar 2006 07:47:15 -0800, Michael Tobis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No one of the complainers and negativists do claim that they could do it much better. Indeed, I do not have to be able to write a particular program to notice it has bugs. On the other hand, (since I think the design, while not brilliant, is good) fixing the logo is something that can be achieved without too much fuss. [snip]While I don't dislike the logo, there has been a lot of grumblingabout it. Dislike has been due to aesthetic reasons, or theresemblance to a cross, or general it's not as good as x. So I gave it another close look, and I wondered if this would improve it:Retain the stylized blue snake. Remove the yellow snake, but keep itsbody that's in line horizontally with the blue snake's, and color it blue. Result: one snake with a horizontal tail that curls up slightlyat the right edge.snipWhen I first saw it I thought twisted than I thought is that a cross? then I thought maybe it's a messed up yin/yang. I thought the yin/yang idea might be interesting, and maybe would work but the overall shape needs to be more circular to convey that idea better.But I'm no graphic designer -- Thomas G. Willis---http://i-see-sound.comhttp://tomwillis.sonicdiscord.com America, still more rights than North Korea -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
Michael Tobis wrote: No one of the complainers and negativists do claim that they could do it much better. Indeed, I do not have to be able to write a particular program to notice it has bugs. just wait until you mention that rottened egg you found yesterday, and all the chickens in the world start calling you names... /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
Kay Schluehr wrote: Steven Bethard wrote: Phoe6 wrote: beta.python.org evolved very nice and noticed today the new python.org website going live. There is a change in the look n feel, wherein it looks more official and maximum possible information about python is now directly accessible from the home page itself. Kudoes to the design team. I want to second that! A moment aside to all the complainers. If you don't like the format, color scheme, etc., could you take a half an hour and mock up a better format that shows what you'd like to see? Honestly, if you come up with a style that everyone agrees is better than what's there now, I'd bet people would be glad to change it. Especially if it's just switching a CSS stylesheet. STeVe Steven, that's not how design works. That's more a feverish dream of techies about painture and the relationship bewteen expression, color and space: replace the theme, fumble around your style-sheet... No one of the complainers and negativists do claim that they could do it much better. But I think at times it might be usefull to consult professional aid. I'm still not sure what the PSF is for... Kay It's not bad looking though so I don't think it needs a huge remake. Just a little more color. With HTML designed for CSS you can do a lot with some tweaks to the stylesheets too. I don't have time to spend a lot of effort on redesigning other peoples websites though. -- Michael McGlothlin, tech monkey Tub Monkey http://www.tubmonkey.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
Michael Tobis wrote: No one of the complainers and negativists do claim that they could do it much better. Indeed, I do not have to be able to write a particular program to notice it has bugs. On the other hand, (since I think the design, while not brilliant, is good) fixing the logo is something that can be achieved without too much fuss. But I think at times it might be usefull to consult professional aid. In the case of the logo design, I am not sure I agree. I think the twisted logo http://saph.twistedmatrix.com/blog/archives/twisted.png and the PyCon logo http://mirrors.ccs.neu.edu/Python/pub/old-www/pics/pycon-logo.gif were probably not designed by professional designers but rather by people who appreciate Python, and yet do have more appeal to the community and the outside world alike. If we are going to use a snake motif, we should use snakes that look like snakes. Maybe its time for me to abandone this discussion. If you and others feel quite well represented by a pasty and wordy snake than go for it. I do neither feel embraced nor bitten by it. And I don't just mean the logo. We can do an awfull lot of comparisons with pages that failed but this doesn't bring forth anything. This evening we talked at the Hofbraeuhaus at Munich about Michelangelo whose sixtine chapel images where once overpainted because his figures appeared naked as god created them. But maybe he was wrong and his customer, the pope, was right and they were actually born with a leaf covered their pubic hairs? The pope had to take responsibility and had to appease possible and real critics. We can assume he was far from being an idiot but a serious man - a politician. As a serious person myself I'm always a little splitted between Michelangelo and the pope. My own idealism expects Michelangelo doing such outstanding things that it is beyond anything. Nothing could be better than having the uptights as the most severe enemies. What a fun! But as it seems my political party is guided by ordinary indifferent humans as well and Michelangelo may be as much attracted by it as I am by e.g. the german social democratic party? So I should track back and rethink the professional aid which might be not what I'm really looking for. Guido feels a deep joy about the resonance between Python and an programmer and artist - Juergen Scheible - who likes the language, feels inspired by it and creates a little artwork for Nokia 60s. So there is some inversion in the right direction. Suddenly Python appears a bit distorted within another context and it becomes sexy again. Should we talk about Apple next ... ? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
Phoe6 wrote: beta.python.org evolved very nice and noticed today the new python.org website going live. There is a change in the look n feel, wherein it looks more official and maximum possible information about python is now directly accessible from the home page itself. Kudoes to the design team. Sigh! Another of these sites that all look the same, with two screenfuls of info on the home page that are going to be in the way of every returning user... Not to mention the dull color scheme and the unremarkable logo. I can't say I'm impressed. Cheers, Nicola Musatti -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
While the new one is much better than the old website, the logo strikes me as awful. I tried to suggest repurposing the much better PyCon logo, but it didn't raise the vast groundswell of support I wanted it to. But for whatever its worth I'll try again. My rant is here: http://tinyurl.com/rkq3s mt -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
I think the new site is great. I really don't understand all the nit picking that's going on from the armchair web designers. The new site is clean and professional. It needs to go live soon! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
Oops...it is live. Cool! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
I do like it, one thing I noticed though:http://www.python.org/doc/ has an image (batteries-included.jpg), a very nice image but it says new V 1.6. Okay , this may not seem important, but maybe someone (the original artist?) can update it. regards,DimitriOn 7 Mar 2006 11:03:27 -0800, projecktzero [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oops...it is live. Cool!-- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list-- All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~Arthur Schopenhauer Please visit dimitri's website: www.serpia.org -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
I dont know, when i went to the web site i wasent sure i was in the right place, i prefer the old web site, it (no pun intendid) said Python all over it. the logog was good and i had no trouble finding anything when i first went there. BrianMichael Tobis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While the new one is much better than the old website, the logo strikesme as awful.I tried to suggest repurposing the much better PyCon logo, but itdidn't raise the vast groundswell of support I wanted it to. But forwhatever its worth I'll try again. My rant is here:http://tinyurl.com/rkq3smt-- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list Yahoo! Photos NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo.-- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
The new website is to blah. It's so light colored across the whole thing that it kind of just melts away in my mind. Maybe giving a little color in the menu bar on the right would help. My experience is that white is a bad background color when over used. -- Michael McGlothlin, tech monkey Tub Monkey http://www.tubmonkey.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
Michael wrote: The new website is to blah. It's so light colored across the whole thing that it kind of just melts away in my mind. Maybe giving a little color in the menu bar on the right would help. My experience is that white is a bad background color when over used. I agree. The text is too loud and the colors are too low. Otherwise Fredrik Lundh reminded me that there are no good PL language home pages out there at all. This shouldn't excuse a mediocre design but it softened my annoyance a little. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
Phoe6 wrote: beta.python.org evolved very nice and noticed today the new python.org website going live. There is a change in the look n feel, wherein it looks more official and maximum possible information about python is now directly accessible from the home page itself. Kudoes to the design team. I want to second that! A moment aside to all the complainers. If you don't like the format, color scheme, etc., could you take a half an hour and mock up a better format that shows what you'd like to see? Honestly, if you come up with a style that everyone agrees is better than what's there now, I'd bet people would be glad to change it. Especially if it's just switching a CSS stylesheet. STeVe -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
Steven Bethard wrote: Phoe6 wrote: beta.python.org evolved very nice and noticed today the new python.org website going live. There is a change in the look n feel, wherein it looks more official and maximum possible information about python is now directly accessible from the home page itself. Kudoes to the design team. I want to second that! A moment aside to all the complainers. If you don't like the format, color scheme, etc., could you take a half an hour and mock up a better format that shows what you'd like to see? Honestly, if you come up with a style that everyone agrees is better than what's there now, I'd bet people would be glad to change it. Especially if it's just switching a CSS stylesheet. STeVe Steven, that's not how design works. That's more a feverish dream of techies about painture and the relationship bewteen expression, color and space: replace the theme, fumble around your style-sheet... No one of the complainers and negativists do claim that they could do it much better. But I think at times it might be usefull to consult professional aid. I'm still not sure what the PSF is for... Kay -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
New python.org website
beta.python.org evolved very nice and noticed today the new python.org website going live. There is a change in the look n feel, wherein it looks more official and maximum possible information about python is now directly accessible from the home page itself. Kudoes to the design team. Senthil http://phoe6.livejournal.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
Wow. That does look fantastic. Thumbs up! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New python.org website
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Phoe6 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes beta.python.org evolved very nice and noticed today the new python.org website going live. There is a change in the look n feel, wherein it looks more official and maximum possible information about python is now directly accessible from the home page itself. Kudoes to the design team. Senthil http://phoe6.livejournal.com I like the look of it generally, however two points: 1) There is no way to return to the Home page from the LHS menu. You can click on Python In the logo but that's perhaps not obvious 2) I think the logo is a little faint, washed-out. I'd prefer something more dynamic, or at least brighter. (I suppose this shows how superficial my checking was!) Regards Ian -- Ian Parker -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
whisper If you build it, they will come. /whisper http://pydotorg.dyndns.org:8000 /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Hi Fredrik Lundh schrieb: whisper If you build it, they will come. /whisper http://pydotorg.dyndns.org:8000 Have access-problem. It's dnynds.org. Perhabs not everytime Online? bye Chris Ditze-Stephan /F ___ Chris Ditze-Stephan Zentric -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Chris Ditze-Stephan wrote: http://pydotorg.dyndns.org:8000 Have access-problem. It's dnynds.org. no, it's dyndns.org. did you make that typo in the browser too ? /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Aahz wrote: the sample site contains ~600 pages. each page has been automatically translated from python.org sources to moinmoin markup, and then stored in a moinmoin 1.5 instance. a separate component has then extracted the pages from moinmoin, and converted them XHTML fragments for rendering. That looks pretty good. The most serious bug I've found so far in your conversion is the missing form for grabbing SF bugs/patches on http://www.python.org/dev/ just after Links for Developers forms and tables are not handled well, and there are lots of minor issues with the current html-moin converter (it's a 2x15-minute hack, after all). I'm curious what you plan to do for handling sidebar links, especially context-sensitve ones that change as you switch between sections of the site. I think I mentioned this in an earlier post; simply adding a special SideBar link list at the top of a page should be good enough SideBar: side bar title * [link title] * [link title] * [link title] rest of page /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Gerhard Häring wrote: the sample site contains ~600 pages. each page has been automatically translated from python.org sources to moinmoin markup, and then stored in a moinmoin 1.5 instance. a separate component has then extracted the pages from moinmoin, and converted them XHTML fragments for rendering. Great. This sounds a lot like the ugly hacked script I produced that would dump all MoinMoin contents to XHTML in one directory, and the raw MoinMoin sources to another directory: http://ghaering.de/pydotorg/dumpwiki.py that's quite similar to what I've been using, with the exception that I'm pulling the text from a moinmoin server, and cleaning up the resulting HTML (which is wikified, and quite horrible ;-). The other part of my experiment was a stupid build system that recursively looks for KID files in a directory tree and renders them to HTML. What do you think of an approach like this? makes perfect sense, in itself (but I think the choice of templating system can wait until we've sorted out the CMS and rendering side of things). let's get the content in good shape first... /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Fredrik Lundh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Aahz wrote: Fredrik: the sample site contains ~600 pages. each page has been automatically translated from python.org sources to moinmoin markup, and then stored in a moinmoin 1.5 instance. a separate component has then extracted the pages from moinmoin, and converted them XHTML fragments for rendering. That looks pretty good. The most serious bug I've found so far in your conversion is the missing form for grabbing SF bugs/patches on http://www.python.org/dev/ just after Links for Developers forms and tables are not handled well, and there are lots of minor issues with the current html-moin converter (it's a 2x15-minute hack, after all). That's fine, just wanted to make sure it wasn't getting lost in the noise. I'm curious what you plan to do for handling sidebar links, especially context-sensitve ones that change as you switch between sections of the site. I think I mentioned this in an earlier post; simply adding a special SideBar link list at the top of a page should be good enough SideBar: side bar title * [link title] * [link title] * [link title] rest of page Hrm. So you're suggesting that each page have a manually-created sidebar? One thing I do like about the current (and currently planned future) setup is that it's easy to create a custom sidebar for a section of the website. (E.g. all the dev pages have the same sidebar.) -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/ 19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing. --Alan Perlis -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Aahz wrote: I think I mentioned this in an earlier post; simply adding a special SideBar link list at the top of a page should be good enough SideBar: side bar title * [link title] * [link title] * [link title] rest of page Hrm. So you're suggesting that each page have a manually-created sidebar? One thing I do like about the current (and currently planned future) setup is that it's easy to create a custom sidebar for a section of the website. (E.g. all the dev pages have the same sidebar.) no, the side bar would of course contain all the sidebar sections that apply to the current page (inheriting from parent pages, like today). (I'm beginning to think that categories might be a better way to link pages to each other in the wiki, but the same approach works in that case too, of course). /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Who is www.python.org for? (was Re: New Python.org website ?)
Terry Hancock wrote: On 22 Jan 2006 14:18:18 -0800 *I* don't want a slick brochure for Python as the website. For all the commercial value in Python (and there is plenty, I am sure), it's not Java, and I don't want it to be. I'm cool with suits loving it too, but I don't want to have to put on a suit to play. Python is an absolutely top-notch free software language for free software developers, not least of which are the amateurs, who program for love, not money. I hesitate to express this opinion, because I don't want to seem intolerant (and I'm going to use whatever site there is), but if the suits can get their own place and leave me alone, I'm for that. ;-) Cool!... I think thats exactly what we are after also. Only the home page plus a handful of interior pages (in the about section) will be targeted at businessmesn, developers and users. The rest of the site will stay pretty much untouched (albeit cleaning up the html, ensuring accessibility also adding consistent navigation to aid usability) For me, the most important function of the python.org site is as a quick-reference to deeper documentation that I actually need in the process of writing Python code. All of these functions will still be in place. I don't really know if I'm the market for this site. I'm already sold on Python, after all, I just want something useful that I can use to stay up-to-date, and to find other Python resources if they move, get created, or if I just lose track of the URLs. you shouldn't have a problem at all then. Developers are the primary marketing for the site. The home page is the only one that needs to server multiple purposes and we're trying to balance those multiple purposes between developers who come to the python site for the first time and business people who come to python for the first time. The homepage isn't very often used by people who are already developing or using python, apart from to view news and to use the navigation to find deeper content. What I'd like is to add a 'developer homepage' that includes lots of rss feeds from python related sites, cheeseshop announcements, etc, etc. Then the majority of developers can bookmark a really useful page. Tim -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website?
Tony Meyer schrieb: But sheesh, if I objected to every picture of the moon I see (or pictures that vaguely resemble a moon), I would be in a very sad state. But you see Terry, the point is not that it is just a picture. And let's not forget that as far as we know the moon has always been a natural part of all human life on this earth before and after Islam, and even for those who never heard of Islam. And so the moon is not a Muslim monopoly. Perhaps you're not aware of this, but the 'plus' shape existed before Christianity, too. =Tony.Meyer And the Python logo _is_ a plus sign and _not_ a christian cross. Try crucifying anybody on it. -- Dr. Sibylle Koczian Universitaetsbibliothek, Abt. Naturwiss. D-86135 Augsburg e-mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Who is www.python.org for? (was Re: New Python.org website ?)
Roy Smith wrote: For the most part, I agree with Terry; I want a site that gives me the info I need without any fluff getting in the way. But, at the same time, I realize that there is a need for marketing to suits. I'll leave layout to others, but content-wise, I don't think this is very difficult. A Python is-blurb with current buzzwords, (I guess that could be autogenerated by some bot that extracts buzz- words from the net ;) a few quotes (we have that) and links to success stories. Both to http://www.pythonology.org/success and to O'Reilly's both publications: http://python.oreilly.com/news/python_success_stories.pdf and http://python.oreilly.com/news/PythonSS.pdf Adorn the O'Reilly links with images depicting the covers of those booklets. (I'm sure it's fairly simple to extract the covers from the PDF's to .png files.) In general, I think it's a good idea to avoid producing content that's already out there. Use the resources on the internet. Sure, it means that we're not quite in control, but I'm sure it's much less work to maintain some links than to create a lot of content and keep that up-to-date. It also adds credibility to show that we have such a wide support from third parties such as the publishing houses and companies like Google etc. I'm pretty sure that a lot of what's in the web site today could be in the wiki, such as the topic guides and SIG pages. For documentation, I'd put a prominent link to Amazon's page for Books Subjects Computers Internet Programming Languages Tools Python besides the standard documentation and a wiki page were the community can maintain links to on-line tutorials etc. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Who is www.python.org for? (was Re: New Python.org website ?)
On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 22:43:45 -0600, Terry Hancock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For me, the most important function of the python.org site is as a quick-reference to deeper documentation that I actually need in the process of writing Python code. docs.python.org is probably the site most useful to you, then. --amk -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website?
Terry Hancock wrote: On 18 Jan 2006 18:05:18 -0800 Obaid R. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hope it is not counted against me that I am the first one to point out that the logo is shaped like a cross. [...] Hey, looks more like a Yin-Yang symbol to me. ;-) True. But I hope you are not arguing that since it looks to you like a Yin-Yang that it makes it therefore not look like a cross. For even Steve did say that there is no point arguing against what appears like a matter of fact. And why ask with any trepidation, Steve? People of different backgrounds have dissimilar sensitivities. I hope you agree that it would be unfair to blame people for such deeply personal affairs. If trepidation on the part of even the Red Cross was enough to cancel such sensitivities, we would not have had a Red Crescent or a cooperation between them. If not proving one's subscription to some set of beliefs, such symbols at least disprove the same for others. No, I'm sorry, intolerance is bad, no matter who practices it. And what may be forgiveable on a battlefield is not forgiveable in my workplace. I can understand that there were specific circumstances leading to the Red Cross/Red Crescent schism, and that it had to do with long standing religious intolerance on both sides. It doesn't make it an example to follow. It is apparent that you know only part of the story. Kindly allow me to comment here. Contrary to what you might have heard there was never organized religious intolerance of Christianity by the Muslim side. To give just one easy to follow fact of history, consider this: to this day there are Arabic and Aramaic speaking Christians of Catholic, Orthodox, and Coptic origins living in the Middle East. Some say about twenty million or so. The Muslims who lived in modern day Spain, on the other hand, were either wiped out or forcibly made to convert to Christianity. And their numbers were in the hundreds of thousands if not millions. And this is just one example. But sheesh, if I objected to every picture of the moon I see (or pictures that vaguely resemble a moon), I would be in a very sad state. Come to think of it, I have a crescent as a background on my company website (it's Neptune, not Luna, but it certainly resembles a crescent moon more than that Python thing resembles a cross). Nevertheless, I am not Muslim. But you see Terry, the point is not that it is just a picture. And let's not forget that as far as we know the moon has always been a natural part of all human life on this earth before and after Islam, and even for those who never heard of Islam. And so the moon is not a Muslim monopoly. If the crescent was dropped altogether as an identifying symbol no Muslim will lose sleep over it. Do you know why? Because it is not an object of worship, Terry. Here is Almighty God's command to us concerning the sun and moon: Among His Signs are the Night and the Day, and the Sun and the Moon. Do not prostrate to the sun and the moon, but prostrate to Allah, Who created them, if it is Him ye wish to serve. (Translation, Glorious Qur'an, 41: 37) The crescent found its way on top of domes on Mosques only to point to the direction of the Qibla in Mecca, where all Muslims face to pray. When a Mosque is built the crescent on the dome is made to face parallel to the direction of Qibla. The early Muslims could have chosen any other symbol to point to the Qibla, but they choose the crescent only to be different, and hence to be free from the consequences that other symbols might bring. After all some of these symbols are more or less worshiped. And here I am thinking of the cross. I feel I must stress again that there is no intolerance here, brother. It is hard to deny the fact that many people do kiss the cross, kneel before the cross, and pray beneath the crucifix, is it not? If that is not worship then what is? A Muslim who does that to the crescent is no Muslim. Period. For a Muslim kneels to no one and worships no one but Almighty God. And just to point to you the significance of this in case you don't know, the greatest sin in Islam is the worshiping of others (or things) besides Almighty God, who has no equals. Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed. (Translation, Glorious Qur'an, 4: 48) And so to summarize: even if I invent a product and place a crescent on it, you are (as a non-Muslim) not under any obligation or threat of confusing your support for your faith (whatever it may be), because the moon is not a Muslim object of worship nor is it a Muslim monopoly. You forcing the cross on a product that Muslims might use, on the other hand, puts them in a difficult position. After all the cross seems like an object of worship and it seems the indispensable source of identity for Christianity. I do realize that I have no
Re: New Python.org website ?
� wrote: Steve Holden wrote: Tim Golden wrote: [Steve Holden] | https://svn.python.org/www/trunk/beta.python.org | but I don't know whether anonymous access is enabled. Maybe you can let |me know ... Doesn't look like it. Asking me for authentication. I've finally gotten to install pyramid and build the very small and outdated subset of the beta pydotorg site. Obviously, I'd like to have access to the real data in the python.org SVN. Rats, thanks for letting me know. As a first step I'd like to open up anonymous access to both the content and the site generation software, so that people can experiment with local content generation. Then once someone knows how to use the system they can get a login for the SVN system and start editing site content. I'll get back to the list with instructions ASAP. It may take a while due to inter-continental time differences and general overwork. Hi, I'm hopefully catching up with Andrew Kuchling today who can set up the anonymous access for the data repo. Thanks for installing pyramid! Can you give me any feedback on what parts of the install process were painful.. I'm trying my best to improve the help text and make changes to readme's etc. Tim -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website?
Obaid R. wrote: Terry Hancock wrote: On 18 Jan 2006 18:05:18 -0800 Obaid R. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hope it is not counted against me that I am the first one to point out that the logo is shaped like a cross. [...] Hey, looks more like a Yin-Yang symbol to me. ;-) True. But I hope you are not arguing that since it looks to you like a Yin-Yang that it makes it therefore not look like a cross. For even Steve did say that there is no point arguing against what appears like a matter of fact. And why ask with any trepidation, Steve? People of different backgrounds have dissimilar sensitivities. I hope you agree that it would be unfair to blame people for such deeply personal affairs. If trepidation on the part of even the Red Cross was enough to cancel such sensitivities, we would not have had a Red Crescent or a cooperation between them. If not proving one's subscription to some set of beliefs, such symbols at least disprove the same for others. No, I'm sorry, intolerance is bad, no matter who practices it. And what may be forgiveable on a battlefield is not forgiveable in my workplace. I can understand that there were specific circumstances leading to the Red Cross/Red Crescent schism, and that it had to do with long standing religious intolerance on both sides. It doesn't make it an example to follow. It is apparent that you know only part of the story. Kindly allow me to comment here. [...] Now, this is exactly the reason for the trepidation in my original reply. Allow me to simply state, regardless of the content of the rest of this reply, that such discussions are completely off-topic for this list. I have no objections to people holding or voicing religious beliefs, nor to discussions of history. It's simply that c.l.py is a very high-bandwidth list, and every off-topic thread reduces its usefulness for people seeking information about and assistance with Python. Experience shows that this kind of exchange can expand and run on for days, so I'd be very grateful if the participants would take this discussion to private email or some other forum. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
If I see this correctly, Fredrik would volonteer to (help) implement something that imports the current python.org content into a Wiki. Exactly. I don't really have time for this tonight, and I've spent more time copying and pasting stuff than working on the converter, but I've posted a couple of rough auto-conversions over at the moinmoin wiki: http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/FredrikLundh/PythonOrg http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/FredrikLundh/PythonOrg/CommunityPage http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/FredrikLundh/PythonOrg/DevPage for the curious, I've found a few more spare 15-minute slots, and a more extensive (but still rough) translation is available here: http://effbot.org/pydotorg/ the sample site contains ~600 pages. each page has been automatically translated from python.org sources to moinmoin markup, and then stored in a moinmoin 1.5 instance. a separate component has then extracted the pages from moinmoin, and converted them XHTML fragments for rendering. (the sample pages on that page are basically the XHTML fragments as is; the final site generator should of course use a suitable templating system and nice CSS for the final product). (or maybe the entire site should be a run via a web framework with good support for caching, such as http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/cache/ any django hackers around with some cycles to spare ? ) /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Tim Parkin wrote: [...] Thanks for installing pyramid! Can you give me any feedback on what parts of the install process were painful.. There was nothing particularly painful. I tried to avoid having to install everything manually and to use the packages that my system (Ubuntu 5.10) provides where possible. In the end, this were only the Zope Interfaces and Twisted. Everything else was either in too old versions in Ubuntu or not packaged. - -- Gerhard -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFD06YldIO4ozGCH14RAkJzAJ9SXjcDRnUIdkAVQIGCWiJyWKZHVwCgpsj6 irzdJP0rSR+IE81f5cAGkTU= =u3i0 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
I've also done some experimentation this weekend, and my solution would
be based on MoinMoin and KID.
Fredrik Lundh wrote:
[...] and a more
extensive (but still rough) translation is available here:
http://effbot.org/pydotorg/
the sample site contains ~600 pages. each page has been automatically
translated from python.org sources to moinmoin markup, and then stored
in a moinmoin 1.5 instance. a separate component has then extracted the
pages from moinmoin, and converted them XHTML fragments for rendering.
Great.
This sounds a lot like the ugly hacked script I produced that would dump
all MoinMoin contents to XHTML in one directory, and the raw MoinMoin
sources to another directory:
http://ghaering.de/pydotorg/dumpwiki.py
(the sample pages on that page are basically the XHTML fragments as is;
the final site generator should of course use a suitable templating system
and nice CSS for the final product). [...]
The other part of my experiment was a stupid build system that
recursively looks for KID files in a directory tree and renders them to
HTML.
My idea is that for each KID file there would be a corresponding
content.xml file that would come from the MoinMoin dump-to-XHTML (*).
As for the navigation, my solution would look like this:
- each KID file uses a master KID template
- the normal KID files do look about like this:
html py:extends='templates/layout.kid'
xmlns:py=http://purl.org/kid/ns#;
head
titleThe page title/title
/head
body
div py:replace=document('src/content.xml') /
/body
/html
i. e. all they do is define the page title, and include the content
XML file created from MoinMoin.
- the make-like generator script will give each template its name as
a parameter, so that the template (and in particular the master
template) know what the current path is. Using this information, it can
render the left-side navigation bar appropriately.
- If there really is a need to, additional processing instructions can
be put as comments in MoinMoin at the top of a wiki page, like:
## RENDER hideNav(/dev); expandNav(/about)
As we also have access to the dumped raw MoinMoin sources, we could
parse these comments and handle them while rendering the KID templates.
IMO this system would be flexible enough to do all that the current one
can do, and integrate nicely with MoinMoin.
It would be not *ALL* dynamic via MoinMoin, but at least the contents
can be editied through a Wiki. Site structure would still be editied via
the filesystem.
What do you think of an approach like this?
- -- Gerhard
(*) MoinMoin dumps do not always produce valid XHTML, so eventually I
still need a cleanup step.
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
iD8DBQFD062EdIO4ozGCH14RAhoRAJ9pumD9LpKRohngbacHXSaub+zYtQCgmyHd
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=hljf
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--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Fredrik Lundh wrote: (or maybe the entire site should be a run via a web framework with good support for caching, such as http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/cache/ any django hackers around with some cycles to spare ? ) Yeah, I or other Django folks would be quite happy to set that up. Just let me know! Adrian -- Adrian Holovaty holovaty.com | chicagocrime.org | djangoproject.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Fredrik Lundh wrote: If I see this correctly, Fredrik would volonteer to (help) implement something that imports the current python.org content into a Wiki. Exactly. I don't really have time for this tonight, and I've spent more time copying and pasting stuff than working on the converter, but I've posted a couple of rough auto-conversions over at the moinmoin wiki: http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/FredrikLundh/PythonOrg http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/FredrikLundh/PythonOrg/CommunityPage http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/FredrikLundh/PythonOrg/DevPage for the curious, I've found a few more spare 15-minute slots, and a more extensive (but still rough) translation is available here: http://effbot.org/pydotorg/ This is awesome. Any chance we can get our hands on the scripts or the MM markup files? Shalabh -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Gerhard Häring wrote:
The other part of my experiment was a stupid build system that
recursively looks for KID files in a directory tree and renders them to
HTML.
My idea is that for each KID file there would be a corresponding
content.xml file that would come from the MoinMoin dump-to-XHTML (*).
As for the navigation, my solution would look like this:
- each KID file uses a master KID template
- the normal KID files do look about like this:
html py:extends='templates/layout.kid'
xmlns:py=http://purl.org/kid/ns#;
head
titleThe page title/title
/head
body
div py:replace=document('src/content.xml') /
/body
/html
i. e. all they do is define the page title, and include the content
XML file created from MoinMoin.
- the make-like generator script will give each template its name as
a parameter, so that the template (and in particular the master
template) know what the current path is. Using this information, it can
render the left-side navigation bar appropriately.
- If there really is a need to, additional processing instructions can
be put as comments in MoinMoin at the top of a wiki page, like:
## RENDER hideNav(/dev); expandNav(/about)
As we also have access to the dumped raw MoinMoin sources, we could
parse these comments and handle them while rendering the KID templates.
IMO this system would be flexible enough to do all that the current one
can do, and integrate nicely with MoinMoin.
It would be not *ALL* dynamic via MoinMoin, but at least the contents
can be editied through a Wiki. Site structure would still be editied via
the filesystem.
What do you think of an approach like this?
-- Gerhard
(*) MoinMoin dumps do not always produce valid XHTML, so eventually I
still need a cleanup step.
It sounds very similar to what we have already built!! What we have also
parses yaml files, rest files, inline rest content, has special
renderers for navigation and breadcrumbs and handles cacheing of built
data to speed generation. It also keeps the format of all original
documents intact and can handle the differences in encodings that exist
in the current content. It will also include static html files (such as
some of the summaries and a lot of the pycon content), data structures
(the sigs and some other sections of the site), custom functionality
needed to remove emails from certain documents and the render some
custom data elements (peps) and the ability to add custom sidebar
elements. It also retains the ability to render complex page layouts on
the occasion they are needed. There is also a module being added that
will parse the current docs and rerender them within the site framework
adding a hierarchical navigation system.
With regards to integrating wiki content, it also has a beta directive
to include content from a wiki so there could be a good overlap here
between keeping the data stored in text files in subversion (a
requirement) and using moinmoin to help manage the content.
The goal will be to add a wiki-like rest editor that could also handle
the non-wiki/non-rest like content (such as sigs, peps, mirrors,
donations, jobs, members, psf meeting minutes, etc).
Tim
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Tim Parkin wrote: It sounds very similar to what we have already built!! What we have also parses yaml files, rest files, inline rest content, has special renderers for navigation and breadcrumbs and handles cacheing of built data to speed generation. except that it isn't: you're talking about a modernized version of the current HT2HTML/make system, we're talking about a purely wiki-driven system. if we add django to the mix, the pages shown to the user won't even exist on disk. /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website?
But sheesh, if I objected to every picture of the moon I see (or pictures that vaguely resemble a moon), I would be in a very sad state. But you see Terry, the point is not that it is just a picture. And let's not forget that as far as we know the moon has always been a natural part of all human life on this earth before and after Islam, and even for those who never heard of Islam. And so the moon is not a Muslim monopoly. Perhaps you're not aware of this, but the 'plus' shape existed before Christianity, too. =Tony.Meyer -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Fredrik Lundh wrote: for the curious, I've found a few more spare 15-minute slots, and a more extensive (but still rough) translation is available here: http://effbot.org/pydotorg/ I've also been messing around with different content sources, and the results can be viewed here: http://www.boddie.org.uk/python/python-site/index.html The infrastructure isn't that impressive: I just take some RSS feeds and XBEL bookmarks files, add some results from parsing the PythonEvents page on the Wiki, put them into an XML document, and then render the different pages using some XSLT-based templates. Not exactly a top-end portal solution, but does it have to be? Of course, the above works for simple portal-like overview pages, but for the real textual content you'd have to make use of more sophisticated sources than feeds and bookmarks. Arguably, organising, retrieving and presenting such content is the hard part of a project like this, and it would be interesting to see how the Wiki could be used for such purposes whilst maintaining a certain level of coherency lacking in parts of the current site (try finding definitive copyright and licence information) and in the Wiki itself (try finding anything very quickly without doing a search). Paul P.S. The events make use of the hCalendar microformat, meaning that you can export them from the page given the appropriate tools. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Who is www.python.org for? (was Re: New Python.org website ?)
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], JW [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Agreed. The main page should be like a slick book cover. It should grab you and leave you wanting more. I think the beta page does that pretty well. [...] Of course, I'm a minimalist. I understand techy types want the details, but I don't doubt the details will be no more than two clicks away. Which sort of gets to the heart of the argument: who is www.python.org for? I suggested one alternative a long time ago, but we never had the bandwidth to do the necessary refactor: The idea is that we make www.python.org even more minimal than the current beta.python.org; it becomes a portal similar in simplicity to google.com (with a bit more explanation). It would lead off to subdomains such as business.python.org, tech.python.org, help.python.org, and so on. That would make it easy for people to bookmark a specific section that was appropriate for their needs. If we can't do that, I think we should overall slant the focus toward the primary users of python.org: people wanting to learn Python and people doing real work in using Python. (I have mostly been keeping my mouth shut during this discussion because I'm one of the [EMAIL PROTECTED] team and therefore should be contibuting labor to make this happen -- but I haven't had the bandwidth.) -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/ 19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing. --Alan Perlis -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Fredrik Lundh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: for the curious, I've found a few more spare 15-minute slots, and a more extensive (but still rough) translation is available here: http://effbot.org/pydotorg/ the sample site contains ~600 pages. each page has been automatically translated from python.org sources to moinmoin markup, and then stored in a moinmoin 1.5 instance. a separate component has then extracted the pages from moinmoin, and converted them XHTML fragments for rendering. That looks pretty good. The most serious bug I've found so far in your conversion is the missing form for grabbing SF bugs/patches on http://www.python.org/dev/ just after Links for Developers I'm curious what you plan to do for handling sidebar links, especially context-sensitve ones that change as you switch between sections of the site. -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/ 19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing. --Alan Perlis -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Fredrik Lundh wrote: Tim Parkin wrote: It sounds very similar to what we have already built!! What we have also parses yaml files, rest files, inline rest content, has special renderers for navigation and breadcrumbs and handles cacheing of built data to speed generation. except that it isn't: you're talking about a modernized version of the current HT2HTML/make system, we're talking about a purely wiki-driven system. Fred, It's not a updated ht2html, just as it's not a web framework and it's also not a database backed content management system. It is what it is, text files with content on disk that get delivered as flat css/xhtml files (via a simple xml based templating system) and stored in a subversion repository. The way people edit content can be via any tool capable of editing text files. That includes, but is not limited to, textareas (via a wiki if you will) or gedit or vim or notepad. I would like your help, if you are willing, to suggest ways of parsing wiki markup into valid, semantic html that can be used on the website. I would also like you help in integrating the documentation into the website. If you want to help, send me an email, if you don't want to help but would like to continue the discussion, I'm happy to do so in private and then we can both come back and post our conclusions on the mailing list. Thanks Tim Parkin -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Who is www.python.org for? (was Re: New Python.org website ?)
On 22 Jan 2006 14:18:18 -0800 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) wrote: The idea is that we make www.python.org even more minimal than the current beta.python.org; it becomes a portal similar in simplicity to google.com (with a bit more explanation). It would lead off to subdomains such as business.python.org, tech.python.org, help.python.org, and so on. That would make it easy for people to bookmark a specific section that was appropriate for their needs. This is a good idea, particularly if the links are domains as you give in your example, and thus not treated like deep links (which too often get broken). The truth is, the comment about being offended by scrollbars made me want to vomit! There are few things more annoying to me than web sites that are designed like Powerpoint presentations. My preference is to condense information onto fewer pages, with more complete information. My expectation of web pages is that they are more like documents than like slides. This is particularly relevant if you are on a slow or high-latency web connection (dialup or satellite, respectively). For me, having the document in my browser puts *me* in control of viewing it, instead of making me click repeatedly through someone else's clever idea of what I should read. *I* don't want a slick brochure for Python as the website. For all the commercial value in Python (and there is plenty, I am sure), it's not Java, and I don't want it to be. I'm cool with suits loving it too, but I don't want to have to put on a suit to play. Python is an absolutely top-notch free software language for free software developers, not least of which are the amateurs, who program for love, not money. I hesitate to express this opinion, because I don't want to seem intolerant (and I'm going to use whatever site there is), but if the suits can get their own place and leave me alone, I'm for that. ;-) For me, the most important function of the python.org site is as a quick-reference to deeper documentation that I actually need in the process of writing Python code. I don't really know if I'm the market for this site. I'm already sold on Python, after all, I just want something useful that I can use to stay up-to-date, and to find other Python resources if they move, get created, or if I just lose track of the URLs. -- Terry Hancock ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.AnansiSpaceworks.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Who is www.python.org for? (was Re: New Python.org website ?)
Aahz wrote: The idea is that we make www.python.org even more minimal than the current beta.python.org; it becomes a portal similar in simplicity to google.com (with a bit more explanation). It would lead off to subdomains such as business.python.org, tech.python.org, help.python.org, and so on. That would make it easy for people to bookmark a specific section that was appropriate for their needs. +1 IMO, this is the best suggestion i've heard yet. it seems like such a simple, clean, minimalist yet fully functional solution. and it seems to elegantly solve the suits vs developer issue. for those who like fancy images on the home page, you could now have an image that clearly links to each subdomain. you could even have a search on the home page that searches all the python subdomains. bryan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Who is www.python.org for? (was Re: New Python.org website ?)
Terry Hancock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For all the commercial value in Python (and there is plenty, I am sure), it's not Java, and I don't want it to be. I'm cool with suits loving it too, but I don't want to have to put on a suit to play. Python is an absolutely top-notch free software language for free software developers, not least of which are the amateurs, who program for love, not money. I didn't have anything to do with this prototype (in fact, I didn't even know it was being built until it was announced here recently), but I was involved with some of the early discussions 3-4 years back about how to promote Python within the corporate world. For the most part, I agree with Terry; I want a site that gives me the info I need without any fluff getting in the way. But, at the same time, I realize that there is a need for marketing to suits. I've been working with Python for something like 8 years (and, depending on how you count, 3 or 4 employers). I've seen how difficult it is to get it adopted in the corporate world. Like it or not, suits run the business world, and they make the business decisions. It's one thing for me to decide to write something in Python, but to actually get something integrated into the build system, get the QA guys on board, get legal to endorse its use, etc, involves getting a lot of suits involved. That's life in the corporate world. I may think Java sucks, and you may think Java sucks, but like it or not, it's accepted in the corporate world. If you want to get paid to write Python code, it's in your best interests to get Python accepted by the suits the same way Java is now. If that means www.python.org looks like something that came out of a corporate PR department, that's a pretty small price to pay. I hesitate to express this opinion, because I don't want to seem intolerant (and I'm going to use whatever site there is), but if the suits can get their own place and leave me alone, I'm for that. ;-) For me, the most important function of the python.org site is as a quick-reference to deeper documentation that I actually need in the process of writing Python code. I don't really know if I'm the market for this site. I'm already sold on Python, after all, I just want something useful that I can use to stay up-to-date, and to find other Python resources if they move, get created, or if I just lose track of the URLs. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Steve Holden wrote: Tim Golden wrote: [Steve Holden] | https://svn.python.org/www/trunk/beta.python.org | but I don't know whether anonymous access is enabled. Maybe you can let |me know ... Doesn't look like it. Asking me for authentication. I've finally gotten to install pyramid and build the very small and outdated subset of the beta pydotorg site. Obviously, I'd like to have access to the real data in the python.org SVN. Rats, thanks for letting me know. As a first step I'd like to open up anonymous access to both the content and the site generation software, so that people can experiment with local content generation. Then once someone knows how to use the system they can get a login for the SVN system and start editing site content. I'll get back to the list with instructions ASAP. It may take a while due to inter-continental time differences and general overwork. Are you still on it? I'd be happy enough with any kind of readonly access for myself for now. Thanks, - -- Gerhard -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFD0skhdIO4ozGCH14RArdeAKCvolij/RdlCR+2f95usNaMAU5GKgCeOW2U 2OuazmveIIuaTpgJNSh4xOc= =IgFW -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Shalabh Chaturvedi wrote: Tim the Taller (I presume he's taller; he's Dutch) and the other critics fail to realize is that no one reads content. I disagree completely. I wouldn't touch a new language or technology without first reading content. Neither would my boss, or any other manager for that matter. This is not a watch, a garment, a toothpaste or a burger. It is a software product, which needs a lot of content. The few words in captions should indeed be conveying the message. Which brings up a good question - what message does python.org want to convey? Is beta.python.org doing that? What puzzles me (and scares me) is that some people seem to think that anyone would go to python.org and expect a corporate fluff site. It's like when I asked a suit friend with long industry experience to check the python marketing list; his spontaneous reaction after reading some of the we must do this because non-programmers think like this discussion was one big WTF-are-these-guys-talking-about-why-do-they-hate-python ? The current site needs an incremental style overhaul, a less cluttered front page, and some signs that python.org's actually using modern Python tools for the site. And it needs to be more alive, both style-wise and content- wise. It does not need to treat its target audience (be it developers nor managers) as simpletons. Companies in the Python space don't do that, so why should python.org ? /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
JW wrote: I don't agree. I read websites in search for information (content), not to find advertisements. Yes, and I read Playboy for the interviews ;) if you want the glossy stuff, go to python.com. In another post, you mention http://www.joelonsoftware.com/ which appears to be some sort of blog (the current bane of the internet). I immediately noticed something when visiting Joel using Firefox. **Scrollbars**. The page wouldn't even fit on the screen! I started to read it, but my face went numb before I needed to use the scrollbar. OK for blogging -- not so cool for a book cover. Of course, I'm a minimalist. minimalist? you sound like some guy who read a book about web design in the late nineties, and who've missed virtually everything that has happened since then. that's not minimalist, that's ignorant. /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Shalabh Chaturvedi wrote: Tim Parkin wrote: Well apart from the front page and a couple of pages providing content specific to different types of usersm the whole site is the same as it was before. Do you have a problem with marketing python or with the content of the python site? Could you expand on why you think the beta site looks 'phony'? The pictures are too big, too many and in your face (boastful, as someone else mentioned). Even in most commercial product sites I see a single company name/logo or a single quote in a corner somewhere. For example www.ironport.com, www.informatica.com, www.basecamphq.com... One great open source site is www.postgresql.org. Everything including documentation has the same look and feel. I'm looking at it as someone who is skeptical or knows only little about Python. What? Google, NASA! (click, click.. nothing.. or a single quote) Bah! this is bogus. People want to know how something will help them and why should they use it. It would be awesome if we can pull all the pythonology success stories into python.org and link exactly one on the main page (again see www.postgresql.org). Anything less than a case study does not warrant a picture with a 'learn why..' on it. My gripes with the whole thing: 1. Learn why.., Learn why.., Learn more..? Unless each one takes you directly to a great success story, these should be removed. These will link directly to success stories. Good, but I think there should be only one with a smaller link to case studies and/or quotes. Python has been an important part of Google since the beginning, and remains so as the system grows and evolves. Today dozens of Google engineers use Python, and we're looking for more people with skills in this language. said Peter Norvig, director of search quality at Google, Inc. thats what it says on the old site right at the top of the page... So the google link on the home page should perhaps go to this quote instead of google.com. 4. I have a lot of respect for GvR, but there ought to be more advertising of the fact that the language is not supported by just one person. There is an great dev team behind it and a stable PSF organization. Anyone reading 'developed by one person' is not left with the fuzzy feeling of a mature, well-supported product that is here to stay. So you think we should add some copy that creates a more positive impression of python? Thanks for your suggestion to rewrite the copy regarding the team behind python. Could you come up with some alternative for this? Sure, I will work on this. Hopefully most of these will get fixed as people 'convert' the site and fill in content. I would urge people to do some 'user' testing - get persons not very familiar with Python and get their honest opinion on the site. We have done... The feedback was that some pictures would help engage people who view the website for the first time. This was especially true of non-programmers who may be assessing python as part of a business decition (who will probably not get further than the home page). I think logos might be more effective. Again with links to success stories with pull quotes highlighting Python's strengths. Pretty pictures by themselves don't do much. People want to know how it is different from other things, why it is better and *where* it is better. Most developers tended to want to jump straight into bookmarked parts of the site or just check the updated news. People wanting to learn about python would try to find a 'for beginners' link (hence the prominence of this). These links are very important. A couple of nitpicks about presentation: 1. Why are there two 'documentation' sections on the left? 2. Why does the 'about' section show 3 sub-headings on the main page, but grows to 6 when clicked? A summary of questions whose answers may help us: Do you have a problem with the way we are trying to 'market' python? I like that you are trying to market Python. I think the way it is being done may be ineffective, or worse, may backfire. Which content in particular do you have an objection to? The 3 edited (or stock?) pictures occupying majority of the real estate. Missing success stories or case studies. Could you expand on why you think the beta site looks 'phony'? See top of email. Could you tell me what about the site makes you think it looks 'cool' or 'flashy'? The big pictures are too flashy. The colors and fonts etc. give make it somewhat cool. Cool is a good thing. But not without content. Could you come up with some alternative for the intro copy about python? Sure. In fact I think the front page intro should be very minimal with 2 or 3 specifically targeted intros in the about section. Is the current www.python.org written in HTML? If not where can I get the source? Cheers, Shalabh The current site is mostly HTML, so you can use
Re: New Python.org website ?
Tim Parkin wrote: the design is alright (if a bit too bland business), but the little I've seen of the information architecture and the backend infrastructure feels like 1998 (which, I suppose, was when the project started...) Could you expand on why the backend infrastructure and information architecture feel like 1998? (it's a bit of an abstract comment and doesn't offer anything constructive). it's the kind of tools that people built around then: a bunch of text files, and a make-style build templating system. to use the tools, you log in to the web server via a back channel. An example of a site info architecture that feels like 2005 would be good. Also an example of a backend architecture that isn't like 1998 would be good too. anything that supports edit-though-the-web and does the final composition by composing HTML information sets would be more 2006. the easiest way to get there would be to use a MoinMoin instance to main- tain the content, and a separate renderer to generate static pages for the main site (possibly using Cheetah or Kid as template languages). /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Steve Holden said unto the world upon 11/01/06 04:44 AM: http://beta.python.org A few minor points about the design: The Using Python for . . . for section on the right is expectation violating in several ways: 1) Each two lines have 3 separate links, but all go to the same place. Much better, I think, to make the entire two lines one link. 2) Alternating lines in slightly different colours briefly made me wonder if a visited/not visited distinction was being marked. The difference is also a bit too subtle; I wasn't entirely sure it was there at first. 3) The second line of every pair seems badly spaced, e.g. ServersPeer to Peer. (This is with Firefox 1.07 running on Linux.) 4) Even if the first and second lines are kept as separate parallel links, that there are two links in the second line, and that they break on subject seems wrong as the whitespace makes the link chunks and text chunks fail to coincide. None of that is critical, but all of it is a bit puzzling. A suggestion: I think it would be a good thing if the wiki were prominently linked somewhere. Perhaps not on the main page, but surely in somewhere such as the community or documentation navigation submenus. Best to all, Brian vdB -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website?
Obaid R. wrote: Steve Holden: The history of this choice is lost in the mists of time. Many other proposals were made and discussed at around the same time, to the extent that it became clear no one choice could win universal approval. You are the first person to my knowledge to point out that it is shaped like a cross. There is no significance in this shape. Is there, I ask with some trepidation, a specific point to this question? Thanks for the clarification. A pleasure. I hope it is not counted against me that I am the first one to point out that the logo is shaped like a cross. There might be many explanations for this; but sooner or later a person with a different background than the ones you knew would have likely noted the same. With that said, however, none of this affects the point that the logo is indeed shaped like I note. (Even the red cross of the International Committee of the Red Cross is shaped like a plus sign: http://www.icrc.org/). I suppose someone had to point it out, so the fact that you are the first certainly won't be held against you in *this* reader's mind anyway. And I cannot deny that the outline of the logo is that of a cross - there would be little point denying a simple truth. And why ask with any trepidation, Steve? People of different backgrounds have dissimilar sensitivities. I hope you agree that it would be unfair to blame people for such deeply personal affairs. If trepidation on the part of even the Red Cross was enough to cancel such sensitivities, we would not have had a Red Crescent or a cooperation between them. If not proving one's subscription to some set of beliefs, such symbols at least disprove the same for others. The trepidation was accounted for solely by a concern that Python would become involved in any kind of religious controversy, or that someone of extreme views might claim that Python was associated with, or against, a particular religious belief. Quite apart from the fact that language choice should not be a religious issue (:-), you are correct in saying that we must be mindful of sensitivities; as I mentioned, the outline of the logo hasn't been raised in the year since it was first mooted. I hope this doesn't mean we need *two* Python logos! I do realize that I have no say in the decisions affecting Python's current and future plans. But it makes sense to think that like any other marketed product, Python must take into consideration the nature of its target audience. And if it is to appeal to international users, then points of deep contention are better avoided. Don't you agree? I am glad the shape has no significance and I thank you for patience. Absolutely happy to help. You have as much say in Python's affairs as any other user, and are just as entitled to comment. I certainly wouldn't want to limit its popularity in any part of the world simply because of a poor choice of graphic. Perhaps when a further redesign is mooted we can ensure that corners are even more rounded ;-) regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Steve Holden wrote: This critique is all very well, but it tends to rely rather heavily on the words I think. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but please don't think that this new design was created on a whim. you keep saying that, but whenever the analysis that led up to the suggested approach (which is broken in multiple ways) was made, it wasn't very recently. what makes you so sure that what was perceived as correct among a small group of self-selected python marketers in 2002-2003 is still the best way to handle Python's most valuable web asset ? /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Fredrik Lundh wrote: What puzzles me (and scares me) is that some people seem to think that anyone would go to python.org and expect a corporate fluff site. It's like when I asked a suit friend with long industry experience to check the python marketing list; his spontaneous reaction after reading some of the we must do this because non-programmers think like this discussion was one big WTF-are-these-guys-talking-about-why-do-they-hate-python ? If you'd followed the conversation, we actually asked a sample of non-programmers and a few company decision makers what there expectations were.. You may have seen a few ill informed comments on the python list (but tell me what list you can go on that doesn't). The current site needs an incremental style overhaul, a less cluttered front page, and some signs that python.org's actually using modern Python tools for the site. And it needs to be more alive, both style-wise and content- wise. Thats what we've done. It does not need to treat its target audience (be it developers nor managers) as simpletons. Companies in the Python space don't do that, so why should python.org ? I haven't got a clue what you are on about with the simpleton thing.. Is this related to another conversation it's the kind of tools that people built around then: a bunch of text files, and a make-style build templating system. to use the tools, you log in to the web server via a back channel. In most circles it is considered a 'good thing' that data is stored in a format that can be edited by hand. Of course we could have stuffed it all in a database or stored it as xml.. would this have been more 2006. anything that supports edit-though-the-web and does the final composition by composing HTML information sets would be more 2006. the easiest way to get there would be to use a MoinMoin instance to maintain the content, and a separate renderer to generate static pages for the main site (possibly using Cheetah or Kid as templateanguages). It would be apparent to you if you'd read around (even within this list) that the website is ultimately intended to have 'through the web' editing tools. You'd also know that one of the biggest acheivements so far is the separation of template from data from content so that 'information sets' actually exist in the first place. This also means that when someone designs a better template (as they may well do) it can be easily changed in the future. We also don't really want to have a proliferation of text formats and as a lot of the website is already written using restructured text, this is the format thats been recommended. A wiki is not a website and to try to shoehorn a wiki into a content management system is not a good final goal. We are adding facilities to use the wiki to manage some pages in near future as part of migration. However, the priority was to do certain things first. 1) Separate content from data from presentation is as complete a way as possible (for which nevow templates, which contain no programmatic componenets are suitable). 2) Ensure that the system is usable using basic text editing tools 3) Build the website using the latest techniques ensuring accessibility and usability. The site is XHTML and uses CSS for layout. It also offers legacy style sheets for netscape and has been tested in speech readers and text browsers. how quaint.. 4) Needed someone to actually do something The last item seems to be the one that has hit the most hurdles. As I remember you were a member of the marketing list and have had many opportunities to contribute constructively at planning time. If you could choose to be constructive in either offering useful changes that would make sense at this point in time or offereing to provide help that would be greatly appreciated. I'm afraid I won't be able to respond at length to any more posts.. There is still a lot of work to be done to get the website live. Tim Parkin -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Fredrik Lundh wrote: Steve Holden wrote: This critique is all very well, but it tends to rely rather heavily on the words I think. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but please don't think that this new design was created on a whim. you keep saying that, but whenever the analysis that led up to the suggested approach (which is broken in multiple ways) was made, it wasn't very recently. what makes you so sure that what was perceived as correct among a small group of self-selected python marketers in 2002-2003 is still the best way to handle Python's most valuable web asset ? We're not but they were the only people that were bothered to do anything.. If I remember, you were one of the people that had an opportunity to contribute but didn't... As for self selected, anybody was free to join and help and it was even posted to the mailing list and mentioned on numerous blogs. How about designing a website and showing us what you think would be a good idea? Or suggesting some way of managing all of the content and building the system. Or taking a screenshot of what is there and modifying it to show how you would like it changed. You are coming across has having a chip on your shoulder about something but you are not being clear exactly what it is? Tim -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Tim Parkin wrote: How about designing a website and showing us what you think would be a good idea? Or suggesting some way of managing all of the content and building the system. I think I just did that: the easiest way to get there would be to use a MoinMoin instance to main- tain the content, and a separate renderer to generate static pages for the main site (possibly using Cheetah or Kid as template languages). to which you responded A wiki is not a website and to try to shoehorn a wiki into a content manage- ment system is not a good final goal. which is an interesting thing to say at a time when wikipedia has joined google and blog as the internet things that everyone has heard about... Or taking a screenshot of what is there and modifying it to show how you would like it changed. I have opinions about the backend, and you're turning it into a front- page design issue ? or did you wonder what the backend could look like ? http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Tim Parkin wrote: Fredrik Lundh wrote: [various stuff] It would be apparent to you if you'd read around (even within this list) that the website is ultimately intended to have 'through the web' editing tools. You'd also know that one of the biggest acheivements so far is the separation of template from data from content so that 'information sets' actually exist in the first place. This also means that when someone designs a better template (as they may well do) it can be easily changed in the future. We also don't really want to have a proliferation of text formats and as a lot of the website is already written using restructured text, this is the format thats been recommended. A wiki is not a website and to try to shoehorn a wiki into a content management system is not a good final goal. We are adding facilities to use the wiki to manage some pages in near future as part of migration. However, the priority was to do certain things first. 1) Separate content from data from presentation is as complete a way as possible (for which nevow templates, which contain no programmatic componenets are suitable). 2) Ensure that the system is usable using basic text editing tools 3) Build the website using the latest techniques ensuring accessibility and usability. The site is XHTML and uses CSS for layout. It also offers legacy style sheets for netscape and has been tested in speech readers and text browsers. how quaint.. 4) Needed someone to actually do something The last item seems to be the one that has hit the most hurdles. As I remember you were a member of the marketing list and have had many opportunities to contribute constructively at planning time. If you could choose to be constructive in either offering useful changes that would make sense at this point in time or offereing to provide help that would be greatly appreciated. I'm afraid I won't be able to respond at length to any more posts.. There is still a lot of work to be done to get the website live. The most valid point that Fredrik makes is the convenience and desirability of through-the-web editing. I hope he'll use some of his undoubted energy to examine the current systems design and produce a through-the-web interface for us. Once the new documentation site is up and running, that is :-) Seriously, I'm not aware of anything about the current design that would prohibit through-the-web editing. Neither am I aware of anyone spending the time to produce it. As you indicated, there are other priorities just at the moment. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website?
Steve Holden wrote: The trepidation was accounted for solely by a concern that Python would become involved in any kind of religious controversy, or that someone of extreme views might claim that Python was associated with, or against, a particular religious belief. I'm sure there are a number of places where people without extreme views react strongly to christian symbols--whether the reasons for this are well founded or not. ASEA, the A-part of the ABB group, stopped using their old logo in 1933. They realized that what used to be a symbol for electrical motors in schematic diagrams had become associated with something entirely different. In 1933 the general opinion on nazis weren't nearly as negative as it is now, but whatever you thought about politics, ASEA's old logo no longer gave the right associations to people. On the other hand, people on Bali don't seem to worry a bit about the swastikas on their shrines and temples. Different context. We can obviously argue on how much we should worry about the assocations people in various corners of thge world get, whatever we intended. In Sweden, the python snake has for some reason become associated with bad smells. (I think it was Pippi Longstocking who used an expresion that got stuck in the souls of the Swedes--it's all Astrid Lindgren's fault.) I don't expect Guido to rename Python for that reason (Monty would feel fairly neutral in Sweden), but it sometimes seem to be a disadvantage. I think some people I've tried to convince would have been more impressed if Python had been called XYZ or whatever... Here at work, our conference rooms are named after old norse gods, and the new room that was named Vile, was rapidly renamed Vili, when people thought about the meaning of vile in English. Actually, considering the status snakes have in christian tradition, I guess you could claim that the snakes neutralize the cross! Personally, I think it looks more like plus sign than like a cross. Quite apart from the fact that language choice should not be a religious issue (:-), you are correct in saying that we must be mindful of sensitivities; as I mentioned, the outline of the logo hasn't been raised in the year since it was first mooted. I hope this doesn't mean we need *two* Python logos! It's probably possible to make a Python logo that doesn't look like any religious symbol. I think the plus sign shaped logo had some advantages though. It's not very pretty, but it's simple and a plus is something positive, something that adds value... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Fredrik Lundh wrote: Steve Holden wrote As you indicated, there are other priorities just at the moment. you're complaining about the lack of manpower, and still think that lowering the threshold for contributions is not a priority ? at this point, this should be your *only* priority. I mean, getting this from a long-time python contributor that decided to help out My first attempt ended almost immediately. Too much software to download and install for anything like casual use. should be a rather strong indicator that the project isn't on the right track. Or that the instructions being followed were those for producing a local copy of the website rather than editing the beta site content (mea culpa, since I believe 'twas I who gave the instructions). (and it sure isn't the only indicator; I still claim that the analysis is flawed, and that the www.python.org front-page asset shouldn't be reserved for a target audience that doesn't exist. but that's a separate problem; if you solve the threshold problem, we can deal with that later. if you don't, we might get stuck with the new design for as long as we've had the old one). I don't think it's *reserved* for anyone. The idea is to try and offer a system that allows easy changes to the content while maintaining a relatively clean design. Once the new documentation site is up and running, that is :-) that's an interesting comparision: it took me about 30 minutes to convert 10+ megabytes of reference material into a usable (X)HTML infoset (that is, with isolated content and structural information derived from the source material), and a few hours to get old source-new source-render tool- chain to a state where most conversion bugs turns out to be typos in the original documents (aka the 80% of the remaining 20% level). if converting the old content is and has been the biggest problem in the beta.python.org project, it seems to me as if you might not be doing things in the easiest possible way... Well I can't disagree with that. Want to help? regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Fredrik Lundh wrote: Tim Parkin wrote: How about designing a website and showing us what you think would be a good idea? Or suggesting some way of managing all of the content and building the system. I think I just did that: the easiest way to get there would be to use a MoinMoin instance to main- tain the content, and a separate renderer to generate static pages for the main site (possibly using Cheetah or Kid as template languages). to which you responded A wiki is not a website and to try to shoehorn a wiki into a content manage- ment system is not a good final goal. which is an interesting thing to say at a time when wikipedia has joined google and blog as the internet things that everyone has heard about... Well I happen to agree whole-heartedly with Tim on that one. I can't stand trying to navigate some of these Wiki-trying-to-be-website pages. It is impossible to find anything on most of them (notice I didn't say all..there are exceptions). It seems like they cater to people who: a) Get some sort of sick pleasure out of searching webpages by manually constructing regular expressions. b) Love the fact that every other word is a link and end up in a 3 hour link-clinking session until they have visited every link. Navigating a Wiki to me feels more like trying to find the proverbial needle in a haystack, or perhaps it is more like painting a wall by flinging paint at it with a spoon. But maybe that's just me. I sometimes have a compulsion for methodically checking everything in a sane order. That's probably just my code review skills, or dungeon-crawling instincts kicking in. ;o) M. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
whisper If you build it, they will come. /whisper -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Markus Wankus wrote: Well I happen to agree whole-heartedly with Tim on that one. I can't stand trying to navigate some of these Wiki-trying-to-be-website pages. It is impossible to find anything on most of them (notice I didn't say all..there are exceptions). It seems like they cater to people who: Nobody's expecting the *user* to navigate wiki pages. It's a tool for the content providers. And they don't have to navigate anything either; an edit link (or sym- bol) in a convenient location on each page is all you need. /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Fredrik Lundh wrote: Steve Holden wrote As you indicated, there are other priorities just at the moment. you're complaining about the lack of manpower, and still think that lowering the threshold for contributions is not a priority ? at this point, this should be your *only* priority. If you want to contribute, then do so.. If we had more people offering to contribute then this would be a priority. However despite trying to get people to contribute for over two years, I still ended up doing pretty much everything myself. And despite continued calls for people to help and offers of optimising the install process and writing additional documentation if they wanted to, we've only had four offers of help, of which only myself, Steve Holden and Andrew Kuchling have been doing anything significant. It would be loveley to have a large team of volunteers producing a consensus on approach to the website build. It would also be greate to have lots of people to put the effort into it. I think the same can be said for any open source project. However, just like open source projects, you have to choose based more on who is willing to do anything than on who is offering the ideal solution. (there are normally a lot more of the latter than of the former) I mean, getting this from a long-time python contributor that decided to help out My first attempt ended almost immediately. Too much software to download and install for anything like casual use. should be a rather strong indicator that the project isn't on the right track. I think the follow on post saying maybe I misread the directions and the fact that you can edit/contribute content without having to use the full build tool should be noted (you can use a text editor if you like... how 1976). The project is on the right track as it's the only track that anybody was bothered to lay. (and it sure isn't the only indicator; I still claim that the analysis is flawed, and that the www.python.org front-page asset shouldn't be reserved for a target audience that doesn't exist. but that's a separate problem; if you solve the threshold problem, we can deal with that later. if you don't, we might get stuck with the new design for as long as we've had the old one). I don't think the front page is reserved for an audience that doesn't exist. The front page is trying to serve many purposes for many audiences. If you had read the documents that had been available online during the extensive initial discussions, you would know what the estimated split in the audience was and also know why the balance of content on the home page is the way it is. The 'threshold problem' I think you are talking about (it would help if you could be more specific about what a 'threshold problem' really is) is more relevant to managing content than design and templating. Once the new documentation site is up and running, that is :-) that's an interesting comparision: it took me about 30 minutes to convert 10+ megabytes of reference material into a usable (X)HTML infoset (that is, with isolated content and structural information derived from the source material), and a few hours to get old source-new source-render tool- chain to a state where most conversion bugs turns out to be typos in the original documents (aka the 80% of the remaining 20% level). if converting the old content is and has been the biggest problem in the beta.python.org project, it seems to me as if you might not be doing things in the easiest possible way... Good and congratulations, it shows that the source code is well formatted/consistent - I wish the rest of the website html/data were so. If you are suggesting that your skills can do this with the rest of the site content then please, please help!! In fact I will ask you now, publicly, if you are willing to offer your services to help convert the documentation and exsiting content over to the new website? If you are then your services will be greatly appreciated and I'm sure we can take the discussion of the balance of the home page and future web based management of the content elsewhere and invite anyone who wishes to participate to join us. We can then post our conclusions once we've reached some consensus. If we can get the rest of the content (which doesn't include fancy pictures) over to the new site then we'll have a great foundation for making further additions and I'd really like a few more people to help get us there. I really can't afford a lot of time to discuss issues that have already been discussed far too many times. If we can get down to specifics of what you are offering and what you expect other people to do to help you, then we should be able to keep conversations a lot shorter. Tim -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Tim Parkin wrote: you're complaining about the lack of manpower, and still think that lowering the threshold for contributions is not a priority ? at this point, this should be your *only* priority. If you want to contribute, then do so... so make it easy to contribute. I'm sure the project sponsors (PSF?) would be willing to wait a little longer if the site had good support for distributed maintenance from the start. Once the new documentation site is up and running, that is :-) that's an interesting comparision: it took me about 30 minutes to convert 10+ megabytes of reference material into a usable (X)HTML infoset (that is, with isolated content and structural information derived from the source material), and a few hours to get old source-new source-render tool- chain to a state where most conversion bugs turns out to be typos in the original documents (aka the 80% of the remaining 20% level). if converting the old content is and has been the biggest problem in the beta.python.org project, it seems to me as if you might not be doing things in the easiest possible way... Good and congratulations, it shows that the source code is well formatted/consistent - I wish the rest of the website html/data were so. If you are suggesting that your skills can do this with the rest of the site content then please, please help!! In fact I will ask you now, publicly, if you are willing to offer your services to help convert the documentation and exsiting content over to the new website? to what target environment? a wiki? sure. the current homebrewn solution? probably not; way too much new technology to learn, and absolutely nothing that I'm likely to end up using in any other context. /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Fredrik Lundh wrote: Good and congratulations, it shows that the source code is well formatted/consistent - I wish the rest of the website html/data were so. If you are suggesting that your skills can do this with the rest of the site content then please, please help!! In fact I will ask you now, publicly, if you are willing to offer your services to help convert the documentation and exsiting content over to the new website? to what target environment? a wiki? sure. the current homebrewn solution? probably not; way too much new technology to learn, and absolutely nothing that I'm likely to end up using in any other context. OK... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Tim Parkin wrote: Fredrik Lundh wrote: Good and congratulations, it shows that the source code is well formatted/consistent - I wish the rest of the website html/data were so. If you are suggesting that your skills can do this with the rest of the site content then please, please help!! In fact I will ask you now, publicly, if you are willing to offer your services to help convert the documentation and exsiting content over to the new website? to what target environment? a wiki? sure. the current homebrewn solution? probably not; way too much new technology to learn, and absolutely nothing that I'm likely to end up using in any other context. OK... Sorry to break into this, but it seems there is not so much disagreement after all. I agree with /F that through-the-web editing would make it more likely to get more people on board and get the conversion done in time. Plus it would make maintanance easier once the beta from beta.python.org has been removed. If I see this correctly, Fredrik would volonteer to (help) implement something that imports the current python.org content into a Wiki. FWIW, I myself am also willing to contribute. MoinMoin 1.5 sounds perfect for the wiki. It supports ReST if we want that, and now also a JavaScript-GUI based WYSIWYG editor. If we agree that it's worth changing the primary data source from files to a Wiki, then either the current toolchain pyramid needs to be adjusted or a replacment needs to be written. I reckon all that's left to the building process is filling one or more templates with the content from the Wiki, and filling in the navigation links. Which is the main point of pyramid, I suppose? -- Gerhard -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website?
On 18 Jan 2006 18:05:18 -0800 Obaid R. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hope it is not counted against me that I am the first one to point out that the logo is shaped like a cross. [...] Hey, looks more like a Yin-Yang symbol to me. ;-) And why ask with any trepidation, Steve? People of different backgrounds have dissimilar sensitivities. I hope you agree that it would be unfair to blame people for such deeply personal affairs. If trepidation on the part of even the Red Cross was enough to cancel such sensitivities, we would not have had a Red Crescent or a cooperation between them. If not proving one's subscription to some set of beliefs, such symbols at least disprove the same for others. No, I'm sorry, intolerance is bad, no matter who practices it. And what may be forgiveable on a battlefield is not forgiveable in my workplace. I can understand that there were specific circumstances leading to the Red Cross/Red Crescent schism, and that it had to do with long standing religious intolerance on both sides. It doesn't make it an example to follow. But sheesh, if I objected to every picture of the moon I see (or pictures that vaguely resemble a moon), I would be in a very sad state. Come to think of it, I have a crescent as a background on my company website (it's Neptune, not Luna, but it certainly resembles a crescent moon more than that Python thing resembles a cross). Nevertheless, I am not Muslim. I do realize that I have no say in the decisions affecting Python's current and future plans. But it makes sense to think that like any other marketed product, Python must take into consideration the nature of its target audience. And if it is to appeal to international users, then points of deep contention are better avoided. Don't you agree? I am glad the shape has no significance and I thank you for patience. In America, we call this attitude politcal correctness, and it's a dead end street, my friend. You do realize that the visual namespace for highly symmetric symbols that have no religious significance to anyone anywhere is EXTREMELY crowded, right? Especially if you are willing to stretch a picture of two intertwined snakes into a Christian cross (Just to savor the full irony here, let's remember that snakes are traditionally a symbol of either Paganism or Voodoo). The Red Cross/Red Crescent thing is a sad reality, IMHO. A relief organization originally based in Europe uses a flag which is the inverse of the Swiss flag, because the Swiss have been (for many, many years) neutral, and that flag happens to sport a cross, because, (guess what?) Switzerland was traditionally a Christian country. Then someone who is apparently incredibly intolerant of other people's religious symbols actually goes and *TAKES OFFENSE* at this symbol of neutrality, so that they have to go and create an alternate one just to pander to that intolerance. There is no Red Yin Yang, Red Eightfold Path, Red Star of David or Red Serpent and Rainbow to my knowledge, and it would be incredibly stupid for there to be any such. Apparently, the state of religious tolerance is better in the countries where those symbols hold sway. At worst, the cross might be a reference to The Spanish Inquisition, which anyone who knows anything about Python should know is topical. The language is European in origin, so the use of symbol which has become broadly a European symbol (secularly -- look at the flags of Europe, as well as religiously). And besides, we all know it's impossible to avoid religious wars when it comes to computer languages. In reality, though, it is accidental, and very slight resemblance. If you can somehow manage to take offense at that, then please go get some counseling. Cheers, Terry -- Terry Hancock ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.AnansiSpaceworks.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
I'm assured that in print ads the only content anyone reads is in picture captions, and you damn well better make sure your message is conveyed there. Any other content only wastes space. I see no reason to think that a web page should be designed using any other assumption. Roel I don't agree. I read websites in search for information Roel (content), not to find advertisements. If a site I want to visit Roel looks too much like an advertisement, I handle it the same as I Roel handle any other advertisement: throw it away. Sure, but that's not what JW said. He said that *when looking at ads* the only bits of content people read are the captions of the pictures. He said nothing about what people read when they are reading non-advertising content. Skip -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 18:34:21 +0100, Gerhard Häring [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I see this correctly, Fredrik would volonteer to (help) implement something that imports the current python.org content into a Wiki. First question I have: which wiki? Does this go into the existing Python wiki, or into a fresh new wiki that contains *only* Python.org-destined content? Second question: how do we maintain the sidebar links in a wiki? (i.e. the list of links in the blue sidebar on the existing www.python.org). These links vary from directory to directory on the site. In the file-based system, there's a file in every directory that lists the links, and an individual .ht file can supply its own list of links that's added in on top of the directory-wide links. One minor refinement: the link to the current page is greyed out in the sidebar. Are there existing Wiki-based sites that do this sort of sidebar thing? MoinMoin 1.5 sounds perfect for the wiki. It supports ReST if we want that, and now also a JavaScript-GUI based WYSIWYG editor. Ah... sounds like it's time to upgrade the wiki software on python.org. --amk -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website?
Terry Hancock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] There is no Red Yin Yang, Red Eightfold Path, Red Star of David or Red Serpent and Rainbow to my knowledge, and it would be incredibly stupid for there to be any such. Not only is there a Red Star of David but it has been causing great controversy for years in the ICRC. Google Red Crystal, or check Wikipedia for the story. At least, it had some kind of resolution. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: The Python cross? Was New Python.org website
On 1/18/06, Paul McGuire [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Looks like a plus sign to me, evoking the idea of incremental improvement. A cross (as in Christian symbol) really has an elongated leg to the bottom. But it most closely resembles two snakes (see the little eyes at the top and bottom?), presumably pythons. Personally, I like the stylized snakes, and the symmetry of the logo, a big improvement over the cartooney cutesy snakes we've seen in the past. -- Paul I really like it too, and it reminds me more of a MesoAmerican motif than a Christian one. -Rob -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
A.M. Kuchling wrote: If I see this correctly, Fredrik would volonteer to (help) implement something that imports the current python.org content into a Wiki. First question I have: which wiki? Does this go into the existing Python wiki, or into a fresh new wiki that contains *only* Python.org-destined content? I'd prefer a separate wiki (at least initially). Do we have enough admin resources to set up an 1.5 instance ? Second question: how do we maintain the sidebar links in a wiki? (i.e. the list of links in the blue sidebar on the existing www.python.org). These links vary from directory to directory on the site. In the file-based system, there's a file in every directory that lists the links, and an individual .ht file can supply its own list of links that's added in on top of the directory-wide links. One minor refinement: the link to the current page is greyed out in the sidebar. The renderer/template engine can deal with that. Are there existing Wiki-based sites that do this sort of sidebar thing? Probably; you can do a lot of stuff with plugins. But I'm not sure that's really needed here; simply point to relevant sidebar pages from a site map page, and let the renderer take care of the rest. MoinMoin 1.5 sounds perfect for the wiki. It supports ReST if we want that, and now also a JavaScript-GUI based WYSIWYG editor. Ah... sounds like it's time to upgrade the wiki software on python.org. That would also be nice, of course. /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Gerhard Häring wrote: I agree with /F that through-the-web editing would make it more likely to get more people on board and get the conversion done in time. Plus it would make maintanance easier once the beta from beta.python.org has been removed. If I see this correctly, Fredrik would volonteer to (help) implement something that imports the current python.org content into a Wiki. Exactly. FWIW, I myself am also willing to contribute. I'm sure we can round up some people over in moinmoin land as well. MoinMoin 1.5 sounds perfect for the wiki. It supports ReST if we want that, and now also a JavaScript-GUI based WYSIWYG editor. Absolutely. /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Roel Schroeven wrote: - The header is too empty. Maybe The Official Python Programming Language Website should be there instead of under it. (I also think that title should be shorter, maybe something simply like The Python Programming Language I also think that grey header area is wasting screen estate. Another option would be to place a picture there, instead of below it. It would mean that the picture needs to be less tall. I suggest that we simply rotate the pictures like ads, and that we always link to http://www.pythonology.org/success or possibly to an anchor in a local page with a summary and a link like now. (A hardcoded link to pythonology seems like less maintenance, but means that pics need to relate to one of those stories...) In that way, the picture wouldn't intrude on the available screen estate, and we could show a picture on each page. This means that that someone who spends some time at the web site will be exposed to pointers to a fair number of different case stories. We just need the pictures... At first, I thought that would cause problems by hiding the search box for people who use narrow browser windows, but then I saw how cleverly the pictures are cropped when the window is made narrower. Very clever! Just make sure that the texts in the pics are on the left side of the picture. By the way, I suspect that the currently used pictures on the beta site are borrowed from some other source, and that they can't be used without explicit approval from the copyright holder. If you want a royalty free picture of Astra Zeneca, I guess I could drive down there and take a snapshot, it's not far, but it's a bit dark and grey outdoors these days... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
