Re: Python's popularity (a bit OT)
r rt8...@gmail.com wrote: I think you missed my point Steven, I was in no way proud of the fact of my 9th place rating. It just proves my point to the small following of this group. And frankly makes me feel bad. This spurt of high frequency posts is something that seems to happen to most newcomers to the group. (I think - I have done no stats on it, but I get the feeling...) So maybe the advice is to settle down and enjoy using the resource, because it is an amazing one - there are some hyper intelligent people around. Some of them have some experience. Some of them even know a little python... It also helps if you answer some of the newbie questions, as it crystallises your own knowledge of the language. - that is the way to show how big your cojones are. Nobody believes your claims based on mere descriptions. As you go along, you will find that this group will rarely let you get away with talking nonsense - It has been my experience that my slightest error or fumble has almost always been pitilessly pointed out. I think it is because the volume is high, and people get irritated if they have to wade through stuff like this post that has more to do with etiquette than python. - Hendrik -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Dec 24, 1:19 am, Steven D'Aprano st...@remove-this- cybersource.com.au wrote: On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 08:06:35 -0800, the anonymous troll known only as r replied to Thorsten Kampe and said: Thats Thurstan, thank you very much! :) I think Thorsten knows how to spell his own name. -- Steven OK Steven, you caught me fair and square. This is my first mistake and i will admit it. Sorry Thorsten -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 10:38 AM, r rt8...@gmail.com wrote: School time son, This forum is much more than a question answer session, son. Sure people are welcome to ask a Python related question. But this forum is really the main highway of Python development and future. If your a n00b go to the Python forum.org, you will feel more comfy over there. From python.org (http://www.python.org/community/lists/) - python-list: Pretty much anything Python-related is fair game for discussion, and the group is even fairly tolerant of off-topic digressions; there have been entertaining discussions of topics such as floating point, good software design, and other programming languages such as Lisp and Forth. *Most discussion on comp.lang.python is about developing with Python, not about development of the Python interpreter itself.* python-dev: Note: python-dev is for work on developing Python (fixing bugs and adding new features to Python itself); if you're having problems writing a Python program, please post to comp.lang.python. *python-dev is the heart of Python's development. Practically everyone with Subversion write privileges is on python-dev, and first drafts of PEPs are often posted here for initial review and rewriting before their more public appearance on python-announce.* I think you are confusing lists r. Kevin -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
s...@pobox.com writes: If you look back at the Tour de France results from the 80's I believe Greg Lemond won it one year without ever winning a stage. Well I think it was actually in 1990, his last win sadly. -- Arnaud -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
Steve Holden a écrit : walterbyrd wrote: [...] Fooled by version numbers ? No, but I am giving django the benefit of the doubt. The django project told people all along that django was not to be considered production ready before 1.0. I will accept that some people decided to wait until 1.0 came out to do any production development. Maybe django is only lagging because 1.0 just came out? The Django people said no such thing. They maintained the trunk as stable - they test so well that many people did indeed rely on the trunk for production systems. Indeed - my first Django app has been in production for more than 3 years now. (snip) My actual CTO is a big Ruby/Rails fan, yet he settled on Python/Django for our current 'big' project. Wonder why ? Not knowing much about RoR: yes, I wonder why? Is it because python has a cleaner syntax? Or what? It's because he decided that Django was the best tool for the particular job, making him unusually open-minded for a member of the pointy-haired species. Being a CTO doesn't necessarily makes you pointy-haired !-) We're a small shop (12 peoples), and the guy is a developper too (and yes, an active one). Unlike some on this list he doesn't let his prejudices blind him to reality. Yes - that was the point. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
r rt8...@gmail.com wrote: Now thats the kind of friendly banter this group could use. Instead of people acting as if their bowel-movements smell like bakery fresh cinnamon rolls! What an amazing thing to say! Doesn't yours? - Hendrik -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
r rt8...@gmail.com wrote:: The writing is on the Wall! Yes it is, and as always, it says : Mene, mene, tekel epharsim. If my protestant upbringing hasn't failed me, it means: Weighed, and found wanting. - Hendrik -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Dec 23, 2:33 am, Hendrik van Rooyen m...@microcorp.co.za wrote: r rt8...@gmail.com wrote: Now thats the kind of friendly banter this group could use. Instead of people acting as if their bowel-movements smell like bakery fresh cinnamon rolls! What an amazing thing to say! Doesn't yours? - Hendrik rerunYou think your ships don't sink?/rerun -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:05:22 -0800, r wrote: On Dec 22, 10:09 pm, Ben Kaplan bs...@case.edu wrote: That's just because most of us don't say anything unless we have something useful to say. We prefer to let the experts answer the questions, but we read the threads so we can benefit from them. OK Ben, So you are saying 1.) do not question the gods! Hmmm... when we talk about something we don't know, only trash would come out of our mouth. 2.) speak only when spoken to! He (Ben) does not say anything remotely like that. 3.) do not have an opinion! Again, you're adding sauce, meat, beef, and spices to his statement. Somehow this reminds me of some old and brainwashing religions, Not an OSS project. Just observations Ben. Isn't it you that have been accused of religionizing python by many people in this list? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
* r (Mon, 22 Dec 2008 10:44:32 -0800 (PST)) Steve Holden What makes you assume this is a zero-sum game, and that Python won't survive if any other language becomes popular. Every language borrows from those that came before it. Terms like outright plagiarism don't encourage rational debate, and make you seem like a troll who is more interested in stirring up controversy than actually doing things to help promote the language. This is a war Steve, and i will explain why. Python does not need to compete with perl, lisp, C, basic, etc, etc. WHY, well because python is SO radically different than those languages. Ruby on the other hand, took most from python, the only difference is Ruby's full OO integration.(12.method()). Since Ruby is so similar to python [...] You don't have a single clue about neither Python nor Ruby: 'According to the Ruby FAQ, If you like Perl, you will like Ruby and be right at home with its syntax. [...] If you like Python, you may or may not be put off by the huge difference in design philosophy between Python and Ruby/Perl.'[1] Thorsten [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_(programming_language)#Semantics -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 12:05 AM, r rt8...@gmail.com wrote: On Dec 22, 10:09 pm, Ben Kaplan bs...@case.edu wrote: That's just because most of us don't say anything unless we have something useful to say. We prefer to let the experts answer the questions, but we read the threads so we can benefit from them. OK Ben, So you are saying 1.) do not question the gods! 2.) speak only when spoken to! 3.) do not have an opinion! Somehow this reminds me of some old and brainwashing religions, Not an OSS project. Just observations Ben. You're the one who keeps bringing up the need to spread python. For most people, this is a forum to ask questions and have experts respond to them. Most people who post here aren't looking for your opinion, they want answers. If you know the answer to a question, answer it. If not, read the answers of people who have seen it before. When you post your opinions, you're just creating more noise. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
r rt8...@gmail.com wrote in news:ae1bb365-7755-4c5f-8166-e704c51a7...@i20g2000prf.googlegro ups.com: Oh Steve... Listen, my words are ment as a wake-up-call to all who still love Python, and i believe you are one of them. Maybe old age has slowed your hand, that's OK, Us youngsters will take the helm. And be serious, do you really think this group is read by hundreds-of- thousands of news readers? I wish it were, but I highly doubt it. Thus spake the artilleryman from Horsell Common! Adrian Cherry -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Dec 23, 8:21 am, Thorsten Kampe thors...@thorstenkampe.de wrote: * r (Mon, 22 Dec 2008 10:44:32 -0800 (PST)) Steve Holden What makes you assume this is a zero-sum game, and that Python won't survive if any other language becomes popular. Every language borrows from those that came before it. Terms like outright plagiarism don't encourage rational debate, and make you seem like a troll who is more interested in stirring up controversy than actually doing things to help promote the language. This is a war Steve, and i will explain why. Python does not need to compete with perl, lisp, C, basic, etc, etc. WHY, well because python is SO radically different than those languages. Ruby on the other hand, took most from python, the only difference is Ruby's full OO integration.(12.method()). Since Ruby is so similar to python [...] You don't have a single clue about neither Python nor Ruby: 'According to the Ruby FAQ, If you like Perl, you will like Ruby and be right at home with its syntax. [...] If you like Python, you may or may not be put off by the huge difference in design philosophy between Python and Ruby/Perl.'[1] Thorsten [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_(programming_language)#Semantics Thats Thurstan, thank you very much! :) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Dec 23, 10:12 am, je.s.t...@hehxduhmp.org wrote: r rt8...@gmail.com wrote: You are the epitimy of an internet troll. A troll tries to hide his identity. Why are you so concerned about your TRUE identity. Are the I've already stated, and you've already proven, that it's pretty trivial to ascertain my true identity, if one actually cares. OTOH, that's *not* the case with you. Who is hiding now? I told you, my name is Thurstan Howell III. Do you want to know my favorite color too? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Dec 23, 8:21 am, Thorsten Kampe thors...@thorstenkampe.de wrote: You don't have a single clue about neither Python nor Ruby: 'According to the Ruby FAQ, If you like Perl, you will like Ruby and be right at home with its syntax. [...] If you like Python, you may or may not be put off by the huge difference in design philosophy between Python and Ruby/Perl.'[1] So you read the preface to the tut and that somehow makes you more than a R00b n00b? Come on! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
Benjamin Kaplin wrote: You're the one who keeps bringing up the need to spread python. For most people, this is a forum to ask questions and have experts respond to them. Most people who post here aren't looking for your opinion, they want answers. If you know the answer to a question, answer it. If not, read the answers of people who have seen it before. When you post your opinions, you're just creating more noise. School time son, This forum is much more than a question answer session, son. Sure people are welcome to ask a Python related question. But this forum is really the main highway of Python development and future. If your a n00b go to the Python forum.org, you will feel more comfy over there. If you have no opinion(Benjamin) thats your perogitive, don't tell me how to live my life, or what I should do when i visit this forum. Do I go to any of your threads and start a ruckus? NO, because if i do not like what you are saying I will just ignore it. Take an example son! Sure i may have went off in thread, by i have kept my thought true to the thread subject. A troll go's from thread to thread posting off subject insults and attacks on other posters... hmmm, i have seen some of those kind in this thread?? Know of who i speak, Bennie? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
r rt8...@gmail.com wrote: I've already stated, and you've already proven, that it's pretty trivial to ascertain my true identity, if one actually cares. OTOH, that's *not* the case with you. Who is hiding now? I told you, my name is Thurstan Howell III. Do you want to know my favorite color too? Only if it's pythonic. -- Pierre-Alain Dorangehttp://microwar.sourceforge.net/ Ce message est sous licence Creative Commons by-nc-sa-2.0 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/fr/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 08:06:35 -0800, the anonymous troll known only as r replied to Thorsten Kampe and said: Thats Thurstan, thank you very much! :) I think Thorsten knows how to spell his own name. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Python's popularity
I have read that python is the world's 3rd most popular language, and that python has surpassed perl in popularity, but I am not seeing it. From what I have seen: - in unix/linux sysadmin, perl is far more popular than python, windows sysadmins typically don't use either. - in web-development, php is far more popular than python - it's not even close. - when I did a search on dice, I found over 20X more jobs advertised for ruby on rails developers, than for python dango developers. - application development is dominated by java, c/c++, and maybe a little visual basic. - as I understand it, fortran is still the most popular language for numberical programming. Of course, these are just observations on my part, nothing scientific about it. But, I can't help but wonder how python's popularity was determined. I suspect that a lot of people use python as a secondary skill. For example, I use ms-word, but I'm not an ms-word professional. Please note: I am not confusing popularity with quality. I am not saying that php is better for web-dev, or anything like that. I am just wondering how python is rated as being so popular, when python does not seem to dominate anything. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
Python has it's place, usually getting things done, rather than being flashy. For example, while Java is still the Enterprise King, both the leading application servers (Weblogic and Websphere) adopted Jython as their internal scripting language last year (or was it 2006?). It's used heavily for internal game scripting (Eve Online uses it very heavily (specifically Stackless), as does BF 2142). I don't know if in fact Python is the 3rd most popular language, but I would not be surprised by it passing up other high level scripting languages like Perl and Ruby. Kevin On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 9:11 AM, walterbyrd walterb...@iname.com wrote: I have read that python is the world's 3rd most popular language, and that python has surpassed perl in popularity, but I am not seeing it. From what I have seen: - in unix/linux sysadmin, perl is far more popular than python, windows sysadmins typically don't use either. - in web-development, php is far more popular than python - it's not even close. - when I did a search on dice, I found over 20X more jobs advertised for ruby on rails developers, than for python dango developers. - application development is dominated by java, c/c++, and maybe a little visual basic. - as I understand it, fortran is still the most popular language for numberical programming. Of course, these are just observations on my part, nothing scientific about it. But, I can't help but wonder how python's popularity was determined. I suspect that a lot of people use python as a secondary skill. For example, I use ms-word, but I'm not an ms-word professional. Please note: I am not confusing popularity with quality. I am not saying that php is better for web-dev, or anything like that. I am just wondering how python is rated as being so popular, when python does not seem to dominate anything. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
walterbyrd wrote: I have read that python is the world's 3rd most popular language, and that python has surpassed perl in popularity, but I am not seeing it. In 20 days, you've gone from trying to import a module by using: load test.py to questioning the popularity of python. You have many other subject you want to enlighten us about, I suppose? Cause I wonder what you'll come up with, next. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
Walter From what I have seen: Walter - in unix/linux sysadmin, perl is far more popular than python, Walter windows sysadmins typically don't use either. Walter - in web-development, php is far more popular than python - it's not Walter even close. Walter - when I did a search on dice, I found over 20X more jobs advertised Walter for ruby on rails developers, than for python dango developers. Walter - application development is dominated by java, c/c++, and maybe a Walter little visual basic. Walter - as I understand it, fortran is still the most popular language for Walter numberical programming. Looking at specific application domains doesn't tell the entire story. If you look back at the Tour de France results from the 80's I believe Greg Lemond won it one year without ever winning a stage. What you are reporting is akin to that. Fortran is almost certainly the king of numerical programming, but Python might be #2 or #3 there (behind Matlab). I'm pretty sure it dwarfs Perl, PHP and Ruby in that domain. In web development, while PHP is more popular than Python, Python is probably much more popular than Perl and Tcl. Maybe not ahead of Ruby due to RoR. etc etc. Skip -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
I decided to start learning python for 2 reasons: #A The white-space is wonderful - you can't code unreadable code. #B I noticed that just about every application I use has extensions written in python. Although it isn't as cool as ruby, it certainly has been in widespread use longer. I think that job postings inflate apparant popularity. For example if you look up jobs for Flex developers, you'll see a lot of posts. There are a lot of people that hear the buzz and they think that they want a programmer with that skill, but in reality what they should be looking for is a java dev who is willing to learn flex because there just aren't that many poeple that know flex yet). I imagine the same is true of ruby. Also worthy of mention: I've seen python pre-installed on consumer HP desktops (I think as part of a backup/restore script, but I'm not sure) I would believe that python is in the top 5 for sure. AJ ONeal -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
Marco Mariani ma...@sferacarta.com writes: walterbyrd wrote: I have read that python is the world's 3rd most popular language, and that python has surpassed perl in popularity, but I am not seeing it. In 20 days, you've gone from trying to import a module by using: load test.py to questioning the popularity of python. You have many other subject you want to enlighten us about, I suppose? Cause I wonder what you'll come up with, next. One does not have to by a language maestro to try and assess its popularity. While his numbers or his reading of the numbers might be open to some questions, to suggest that one needs to be totally familiar with a language to determine its popularity is, frankly, ridiculous. -- important and urgent problems of the technology of today are no longer the satisfactions of the primary needs or of archetypal wishes, but the reparation of the evils and damages by the technology of yesterday. ~Dennis Gabor, Innovations: Scientific, Technological and Social, 1970 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Dec 22, 12:11 pm, walterbyrd walterb...@iname.com wrote: I have read that python is the world's 3rd most popular language, and that python has surpassed perl in popularity, but I am not seeing it. From what I have seen: - in unix/linux sysadmin, perl is far more popular than python, windows sysadmins typically don't use either. - in web-development, php is far more popular than python - it's not even close. - when I did a search on dice, I found over 20X more jobs advertised for ruby on rails developers, than for python dango developers. - application development is dominated by java, c/c++, and maybe a little visual basic. - as I understand it, fortran is still the most popular language for numberical programming. Of course, these are just observations on my part, nothing scientific about it. But, I can't help but wonder how python's popularity was determined. I suspect that a lot of people use python as a secondary skill. For example, I use ms-word, but I'm not an ms-word professional. Please note: I am not confusing popularity with quality. I am not saying that php is better for web-dev, or anything like that. I am just wondering how python is rated as being so popular, when python does not seem to dominate anything. Sooner or later, we will remember those good old days where python was our secret sauce... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
walterbyrd wrote: I have read that python is the world's 3rd most popular language, and that python has surpassed perl in popularity, but I am not seeing it. [rest of stuff adequately answered by other posters] The Python has surpassed Perl myth came from one month's results on the TIOBE index, which does not claim to use a scientifically justifiable methodology. Python *is* becoming very popular. Training demand is certainly going up. It's a great language for people whose primary career isn't programming but who need to do some programming - for example, there are about 40 scientists and engineers supporting the Mars Lander project using Python code, because it's a great way to put systems together that other engineers can understand. I try to discourage people from getting into language pissing contests, because they are rarely productive. The short answer is that nobody really knows how popular the various languages are, there are simply estimates with higher or lower credibility. regards Steve -- Steve Holden+1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
Richard Riley wrote: One does not have to by a language maestro to try and assess its popularity. While his numbers or his reading of the numbers might be open to some questions, to suggest that one needs to be totally familiar with a language to determine its popularity is, frankly, ridiculous. I was not judging his competency. But when I am naive on a subject, I don't usually show off like that. The polemic intents in his previous messages are quite clear (python is slow, py3k is an utter failure because it doesn't solve the whitespace issue, etc), and this thread is not different. It seems like a rehash of issues that have been dragged around here by generations of trolls for the last 10 years. Sorry for adding noise to the signal :-/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
I think when Python was first brought to this dark world by a genius named Guido van Rossum, it had complete dominance in it's niche, actually Python created a niche where none existed before. Since the advent of Ruby(Python closet competitor), Python's hold on this niche is slipping. A lot of Ruby noobies don't even realize that most of Ruby is an out-right plagiarism of Python. But I guess that's OK, because Python has borrowed from other languages itself.. just not in such a -sell your soul- kind of way as Ruby!. Now since Python *is not* the only language on it's block, we have to compete with our main nemesis(Ruby) for survival(I wonder if mats would have been so revolutionary to introduce indention if Guido had not done it first??, it seems to me he is a braces fanboy ;) Now more than ever we must stick to the Zen and clean up Python's warts to keep the dream alive and regain our right full crown. Python is better than Ruby, I have no doubt in my mind, but if we let ruby become -faster- than Python, people will gravitate away from Python. Speed IS important even in high level languages. We must never forget that! The war is not over just because we have Google, Nasa, and ILM. On the Contrary, it has just begun. I believe mats is not going to accept Ruby as 2nd best to Python, he will wage war on Pythonia. And if we fail to preempt this attack, we shall be like the burning ships of pearl harbor! Maybe Guido has a secret weapon up his sleeve(big boy), but 3.0 was defiantly not the bomb! Mats will now take advantage of the weaknesses in Py3000 and run with them. Whispering in everyones ear how much faster Ruby is to Python. And weather you like to hear it or not, this ROR thing is exploding, we must counter attack this vile disgrace to Pythonia. Do not sit back and say well we are the best and we don't need to try any harder. For you will be left in the evolutionary dust of Ruby. And next year, left wanting... We need to sound the battle cries and gather the legions. Then we shall march across Rubonia and *raise* their cities to the ground. We shall encompass thy house O' Ruby -- and lay waste to it! After we slay thee, we shall breed with thy women and convert thy children. We shall rule with an iron fist!, crushing all resistance to Python's absolute power. Like the great kings of olde, monuments will be erected so all generations shall be witness of our power, and glory. O' Python, for the sound of thy chariots will be so fear full no army could stand against thee! We shall avenge the atrocities and hypocrocies you have brought upon this world Ruby! And then you shall know that we are the Lord of this world, when our vengeance is cast upon you! I will be monitoring comp.lang.python and over the next 6 months I will conduct a census of the users of this group. So far I have only seen maybe 20 regulars here. I had hoped they numbered several thousand, but i am starting to think more in the hundreds or even less :(. I will post my findings to this group. It shall be a wake up call for those of you who think the war is over. Get off your bums you lazy-coach-potatos, the fight is not over yet. Do not let your eye's become wide shut!!! Truth shall be the judge... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Dec 22, 10:13 am, r rt8...@gmail.com wrote: Since the advent of Ruby(Python closet competitor), Python's hold on this niche is slipping. About the only place I ever hear of ruby being used is web development with RoR. When it comes to web development, it seems to me that ruby (because of rails) is far more popular than python. It seems to me that ruby is the niche player, and python (with fairly new frameworks) is trying to catch up to ruby in that niche. It seems to me that the python web framework that best competes with rails, is Django, and Django 1.0 just came out a few months back. A lot of Ruby noobies don't even realize that most of Ruby is an out-right plagiarism of Python. Maybe. But the rails framework seems to have a different philosophy than the django, turbogears, or pylons, frameworks. RoR values convention over configuration, and has a lot of magic whereas the python frameworks seem to have the opposite philosophy - in those regards. I see pros and cons to both approaches. I wonder what the market with think? Now since Python *is not* the only language on it's block, we have to compete with our main nemesis(Ruby) for survival I think both python and ruby will survive. I think python is also competing with perl in the sysadmin space - although I see perl as being much more popular there. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
r wrote: I think when Python was first brought to this dark world by a genius named Guido van Rossum, it had complete dominance in it's niche, actually Python created a niche where none existed before. Since the advent of Ruby(Python closet competitor), Python's hold on this niche is slipping. A lot of Ruby noobies don't even realize that most of Ruby is an out-right plagiarism of Python. But I guess that's OK, because Python has borrowed from other languages itself.. just not in such a -sell your soul- kind of way as Ruby!. Now since Python *is not* the only language on it's block, we have to compete with our main nemesis(Ruby) for survival(I wonder if mats would have been so revolutionary to introduce indention if Guido had not done it first??, it seems to me he is a braces fanboy ;) What makes you assume this is a zero-sum game, and that Python won't survive if any other language becomes popular. Every language borrows from those that came before it. Terms like outright plagiarism don't encourage rational debate, and make you seem like a troll who is more interested in stirring up controversy than actually doing things to help promote the language. Now more than ever we must stick to the Zen and clean up Python's warts to keep the dream alive and regain our right full crown. Python is better than Ruby, I have no doubt in my mind, but if we let ruby become -faster- than Python, people will gravitate away from Python. Speed IS important even in high level languages. We must never forget that! The war is not over just because we have Google, Nasa, and ILM. On the Contrary, it has just begun. I believe mats is not going to accept Ruby as 2nd best to Python, he will wage war on Pythonia. And if we fail to preempt this attack, we shall be like the burning ships of pearl harbor! Maybe Guido has a secret weapon up his sleeve(big boy), but 3.0 was defiantly not the bomb! I have an article about the Zen coming up in Python Magazine so I won't steal its thunder. Suffice it to say that people take the Zen far too seriously. Anyone who does so undermines their own credibility as a Python commentator. This isn't a war. Stop being childish. Mats will now take advantage of the weaknesses in Py3000 and run with them. Whispering in everyones ear how much faster Ruby is to Python. And weather you like to hear it or not, this ROR thing is exploding, we must counter attack this vile disgrace to Pythonia. Do not sit back and say well we are the best and we don't need to try any harder. For you will be left in the evolutionary dust of Ruby. And next year, left wanting... If all you want from a language is speed, go use C. I would avoid assembly language though, since a modern optimizing C compiler will often beat an assembly language programmer for execution speed, and the programming time will definitely be shorter. But to make speed the be-all and end-all is a witless approach. Speed is definitely not why dynamic languages' popularity is increasing. Speed *is* still relevant in certain areas, and completely irrelevant in others. We need to sound the battle cries and gather the legions. Then we shall march across Rubonia and *raise* their cities to the ground. We shall encompass thy house O' Ruby -- and lay waste to it! After we slay thee, we shall breed with thy women and convert thy children. We shall rule with an iron fist!, crushing all resistance to Python's absolute power. Like the great kings of olde, monuments will be erected so all generations shall be witness of our power, and glory. O' Python, for the sound of thy chariots will be so fear full no army could stand against thee! We shall avenge the atrocities and hypocrocies you have brought upon this world Ruby! And then you shall know that we are the Lord of this world, when our vengeance is cast upon you! I will be monitoring comp.lang.python and over the next 6 months I will conduct a census of the users of this group. So far I have only seen maybe 20 regulars here. I had hoped they numbered several thousand, but i am starting to think more in the hundreds or even less :(. I will post my findings to this group. It shall be a wake up call for those of you who think the war is over. Get off your bums you lazy-coach-potatos, the fight is not over yet. Do not let your eye's become wide shut!!! Truth shall be the judge... Much more of this kind of tripe and nobody will read what you write anyway. You will hear the plonking of a hundred thousand newsreaders every time you post. regards Steve -- Steve Holden+1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Dec 22, 2008, at 12:48 PM, walterbyrd wrote: Now since Python *is not* the only language on it's block, we have to compete with our main nemesis(Ruby) for survival I think both python and ruby will survive. I think python is also competing with perl in the sysadmin space - although I see perl as being much more popular there. Python is making great headway in the physical sciences. Especially in astronomy Python has become a real player as not only a tool for quick and dirty calculations, but more serious number crunching using the great numpy and scipy libraries. With Cython, I, think it will even start taking over some of the speed critical niche from C and Fortran. Cheers Tommy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
Walter, I just look at the stats for comp.lang.python, and i am 9th place for most post this month. That makes me completely sad. With just 50 post so far, i am showing up on the high count. Sad, very sad. Now i have much reason to believe that only 100 or so people follow this list :(. Python is slipping. We must try harder, or all of Guido's work will be for nothing! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 7:01 PM, r rt8...@gmail.com wrote: Walter, I just look at the stats for comp.lang.python, and i am 9th place for most post this month. That makes me completely sad. With just 50 post so far, i am showing up on the high count. Sad, very sad. Now i have much reason to believe that only 100 or so people follow this list :(. Python is slipping. We must try harder, or all of Guido's work will be for nothing! Just wanted to remember you that Python is an open source project initiated and led by Guido Van Rossum and kept alive (and in good health) by the work of *many* people. It if were only Guido's work it would be different from what it is now. Furthermore, choosing to code in a language or in another is not a matter of religion or of war. If someone likes Ruby, or Perl, or VBA... and is productive (according to her needs) with it, why in the world should a Python programmer consider her an enemy??? Francesco -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
hello hackers. Python is best at high level calculations and as an indication, Please note that I am leading a team on developing an accounting software which will be modular and would suit the economic conditions of developed and almost developed countries like India. I find that number crunching and heavy calculations is shear programming bliss in python. At the front end we are using pygtk and find it very light and zippy. And we are going to use twisted for middle layer and reportlab for reporting. And the development so far is pritty smooth and our programmres who learned python for the first time are just amaised about the fact that how easily python can do a certain thing. So i don't know what others think but python is not just a good scripting language (not that being a good scripting language is some thing bad ) but also a complete enterprise ready language with given frameworks like twisted. happy hacking. Krishnakant. On Mon, 2008-12-22 at 12:59 -0500, Tommy Grav wrote: On Dec 22, 2008, at 12:48 PM, walterbyrd wrote: Now since Python *is not* the only language on it's block, we have to compete with our main nemesis(Ruby) for survival I think both python and ruby will survive. I think python is also competing with perl in the sysadmin space - although I see perl as being much more popular there. Python is making great headway in the physical sciences. Especially in astronomy Python has become a real player as not only a tool for quick and dirty calculations, but more serious number crunching using the great numpy and scipy libraries. With Cython, I, think it will even start taking over some of the speed critical niche from C and Fortran. Cheers Tommy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
Steve Holden What makes you assume this is a zero-sum game, and that Python won't survive if any other language becomes popular. Every language borrows from those that came before it. Terms like outright plagiarism don't encourage rational debate, and make you seem like a troll who is more interested in stirring up controversy than actually doing things to help promote the language. This is a war Steve, and i will explain why. Python does not need to compete with perl, lisp, C, basic, etc, etc. WHY, well because python is SO radically different than those languages. Ruby on the other hand, took most from python, the only difference is Ruby's full OO integration.(12.method()). Since Ruby is so similar to python we must consider that some people who would have found only python in this niche now could go to Ruby. I am for choices, but this is out and out robbery! Of course we must stand on the shoulders of greater minds than our own to get ahead, but using someone's knowledge against them is wrong. If Ruby want's to incorporate so many Pythonian ideas into their language, at least put a note in the tutorial giving credit to Guido for his wisdom. Don't use our ideas and then bash python in the next breath! I have an article about the Zen coming up in Python Magazine so I won't steal its thunder. Suffice it to say that people take the Zen far too seriously. Anyone who does so undermines their own credibility as a Python commentator. This isn't a war. Stop being childish. I was speaking to the loyalty of Pythonista's. Of course we are not really going to slay mats, come on Steve, get real! If all you want from a language is speed, go use C. I would avoid assembly language though, since a modern optimizing C compiler will often beat an assembly language programmer for execution speed, and the programming time will definitely be shorter. But to make speed the be-all and end-all is a witless approach. Speed is definitely not why dynamic languages' popularity is increasing. Speed *is* still relevant in certain areas, and completely irrelevant in others. Come on Steve, i am NOT saying speed is the only thing that matters here! But it is very important. I never compared Python to C, that is madness. But it must be better, faster, smarter than it's direct competition(ruby)... you agree?? Much more of this kind of tripe and nobody will read what you write anyway. You will hear the plonking of a hundred thousand newsreaders every time you post. Oh Steve... Listen, my words are ment as a wake-up-call to all who still love Python, and i believe you are one of them. Maybe old age has slowed your hand, that's OK, Us youngsters will take the helm. And be serious, do you really think this group is read by hundreds-of- thousands of news readers? I wish it were, but I highly doubt it. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
Marco Mariani ma...@sferacarta.com writes: Richard Riley wrote: One does not have to by a language maestro to try and assess its popularity. While his numbers or his reading of the numbers might be open to some questions, to suggest that one needs to be totally familiar with a language to determine its popularity is, frankly, ridiculous. I was not judging his competency. But when I am naive on a subject, I don't usually show off like that. I do not see what is showing off about judging a languages popularity. In many cases a languages popularity can be a useful metric in picking a language to do a job. The polemic intents in his previous messages are quite clear (python is slow, py3k is an utter failure because it doesn't solve the whitespace issue, etc), and this thread is not different. It seems like a rehash of issues that have been dragged around here by generations of trolls for the last 10 years. I find it difficult myself to accept certain criticisms of certain things when I am close to them. This does not, however, make the criticisms unfair or untrue or even unimportant. Sorry for adding noise to the signal :-/ -- important and urgent problems of the technology of today are no longer the satisfactions of the primary needs or of archetypal wishes, but the reparation of the evils and damages by the technology of yesterday. ~Dennis Gabor, Innovations: Scientific, Technological and Social, 1970 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Python's popularity
I just look at the stats for comp.lang.python, and i am 9th place for most post this month. That makes me completely sad. With just 50 post so far, i am showing up on the high count. Sad, very sad. Now i have much reason to believe that only 100 or so people follow this list :(. Python is slipping. We must try harder, or all of Guido's work will be for nothing! Maybe most of us are doing real things with Python and not spending our time on the list posting. (I normally do not post on here, but I felt I had to now). I have used Python since 0.9.x and have brought it into every project/contract that I have worked on. The current project I am on tried to get rid of it and move to Perl for all of my code.. All of those people are gone and I am still here and so is Python. As a matter of fact, Python use has grown greatly and we rely on it for so many of our day to day operations, monitoring, data collection, etc. Python is not going away just because people are not posting here. Wake up! BEA and IBM have converted all of their custom script language support for WebLogic and WebSphere over to Jython because they felt Python (interfacing with Java) was the best solution to their script language issues. Everyone on the project I am on that works with WebLogic and WebSphere are learning Python so they can work with it. So far, no real complaints. People are moving away from Perl to Python for much of their scripting, but it will take a long time to complete. There is a lot of training, re-coding, and trying to figure out what the original Perl code did (ever try to go back and look at Perl code that is 2-3 years old!!!). Yes, Ruby has taken some of the popularity out of Python, but they are also hitting different markets. I have also read in a couple of magazine articles that RoR is losing momentum. From what I have read, RoR is great to create your first version, but if you need to maintain a large codebase, it is not as easy as they thought it would be and the reuse numbers are much lower than Python. But hey, what do I know Google, Yahoo!, YouTube... I know.. tiny little tinker-toy web applications.. right? Lance Ellinghaus -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
r wrote: Steve Holden What makes you assume this is a zero-sum game, and that Python won't survive if any other language becomes popular. Every language borrows from those that came before it. Terms like outright plagiarism don't encourage rational debate, and make you seem like a troll who is more interested in stirring up controversy than actually doing things to help promote the language. This is a war Steve, and i will explain why. Python does not need to compete with perl, lisp, C, basic, etc, etc. WHY, well because python is SO radically different than those languages. Ruby on the other hand, took most from python, the only difference is Ruby's full OO integration.(12.method()). Since Ruby is so similar to python we must consider that some people who would have found only python in this niche now could go to Ruby. I am for choices, but this is out and out robbery! Of course we must stand on the shoulders of greater minds than our own to get ahead, but using someone's knowledge against them is wrong. If Ruby want's to incorporate so many Pythonian ideas into their language, at least put a note in the tutorial giving credit to Guido for his wisdom. Don't use our ideas and then bash python in the next breath! [snip] Pythonian? A real Pythonista would know it's Pythonic! A real Pythonista would be called p, not r, which sounds very Rubish(?) to me... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Dec 22, 11:42 am, Ellinghaus, Lance lance.ellingh...@eds.com wrote: Yes, Ruby has taken some of the popularity out of Python, but they are also hitting different markets. Do you mean different markets within web development, or do you mean ruby is used mostly for web-dev, while python is used for other stuff? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Dec 22, 1:10 pm, MRAB goo...@mrabarnett.plus.com wrote: r wrote: Steve Holden What makes you assume this is a zero-sum game, and that Python won't survive if any other language becomes popular. Every language borrows from those that came before it. Terms like outright plagiarism don't encourage rational debate, and make you seem like a troll who is more interested in stirring up controversy than actually doing things to help promote the language. This is a war Steve, and i will explain why. Python does not need to compete with perl, lisp, C, basic, etc, etc. WHY, well because python is SO radically different than those languages. Ruby on the other hand, took most from python, the only difference is Ruby's full OO integration.(12.method()). Since Ruby is so similar to python we must consider that some people who would have found only python in this niche now could go to Ruby. I am for choices, but this is out and out robbery! Of course we must stand on the shoulders of greater minds than our own to get ahead, but using someone's knowledge against them is wrong. If Ruby want's to incorporate so many Pythonian ideas into their language, at least put a note in the tutorial giving credit to Guido for his wisdom. Don't use our ideas and then bash python in the next breath! [snip] Pythonian? A real Pythonista would know it's Pythonic! A real Pythonista would be called p, not r, which sounds very Rubish(?) to me... MRAB - '%sMuchRubyAndBasic' %'Too' MRAB - Method.Ruby(AttractsBraindead) MRAB - MyRubyAintBad MRAB - MuchoRubyAndBasic Pythonian is more acceptable in the context of my sentence... If Ruby want's to incorporate so many Pythonian ideas into their language, at least put a note in the tutorial giving credit to Guido for his wisdom. Pythonian.translate() - in the domain if Python... ownership Pythonic.translate() - in a python style... (way of) two radically different meaning, of course if you vocabulary reaches that far?? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
walterbyrd a écrit : On Dec 22, 10:13 am, r rt8...@gmail.com wrote: Since the advent of Ruby(Python closet competitor), Python's hold on this niche is slipping. About the only place I ever hear of ruby being used is web development with RoR. When it comes to web development, it seems to me that ruby (because of rails) is far more popular s/popular/hyped/ But being (perhaps over ?) hyped too soon is not necessarily the best move... than python. It seems to me that ruby is the niche player, and python (with fairly new frameworks) is trying to catch up to ruby in that niche. It seems to me that the python web framework that best competes with rails, is Django, and Django 1.0 just came out a few months back. Fooled by version numbers ? Heck, Python 3.0 just came out a couple weeks ago, and PHP is already at 6.x !-) FWIW, I wrote my first django app years ago (and it's still in production). A lot of Ruby noobies don't even realize that most of Ruby is an out-right plagiarism of Python. I don't know who asserted such a stupid thing, but he manages to be equally clueless wrt/ both languages. Maybe. But the rails framework seems to have a different philosophy than the django, turbogears, or pylons, frameworks. RoR values convention over configuration, and has a lot of magic whereas the python frameworks seem to have the opposite philosophy - in those regards. I see pros and cons to both approaches. I wonder what the market with think? My actual CTO is a big Ruby/Rails fan, yet he settled on Python/Django for our current 'big' project. Wonder why ? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Dec 22, 3:44 pm, r rt8...@gmail.com wrote: Steve Holden What makes you assume this is a zero-sum game, and that Python won't survive if any other language becomes popular. Every language borrows from those that came before it. Terms like outright plagiarism don't encourage rational debate, and make you seem like a troll who is more interested in stirring up controversy than actually doing things to help promote the language. This is a war Steve, and i will explain why. Python does not need to compete with perl, lisp, C, basic, etc, etc. WHY, well because python is SO radically different than those languages. Ruby on the other hand, took most from python, the only difference is Ruby's full OO integration.(12.method()). Since Ruby is so similar to python we must consider that some people who would have found only python in this niche now could go to Ruby. I am for choices, but this is out and out robbery! Of course we must stand on the shoulders of greater minds than our own to get ahead, but using someone's knowledge against them is wrong. If Ruby want's to incorporate so many Pythonian ideas into their language, at least put a note in the tutorial giving credit to Guido for his wisdom. Don't use our ideas and then bash python in the next breath! I have an article about the Zen coming up in Python Magazine so I won't steal its thunder. Suffice it to say that people take the Zen far too seriously. Anyone who does so undermines their own credibility as a Python commentator. This isn't a war. Stop being childish. I was speaking to the loyalty of Pythonista's. Of course we are not really going to slay mats, come on Steve, get real! If all you want from a language is speed, go use C. I would avoid assembly language though, since a modern optimizing C compiler will often beat an assembly language programmer for execution speed, and the programming time will definitely be shorter. But to make speed the be-all and end-all is a witless approach. Speed is definitely not why dynamic languages' popularity is increasing. Speed *is* still relevant in certain areas, and completely irrelevant in others. Come on Steve, i am NOT saying speed is the only thing that matters here! But it is very important. I never compared Python to C, that is madness. But it must be better, faster, smarter than it's direct competition(ruby)... you agree?? Much more of this kind of tripe and nobody will read what you write anyway. You will hear the plonking of a hundred thousand newsreaders every time you post. Oh Steve... Listen, my words are ment as a wake-up-call to all who still love Python, and i believe you are one of them. Maybe old age has slowed your hand, that's OK, Us youngsters will take the helm. And be serious, do you really think this group is read by hundreds-of- thousands of news readers? I wish it were, but I highly doubt it. Dude, calm down... There is no war here. Please turn off your computer, go take a walk for awhile, experience some real life in the outer world, and then think about this again. Python is cool language, Ruby too. We are all happy and competition is good. Nobody will win this war and the loser won't be annihilated. I hope there will be some healthy cross-pollination. There is actually, for example python borrowed list-comprehensions from haskell and I've never heard any haskell fan calling for jihad. Did you know that people are looking forward to use pypy to create a fast ruby implementation? Pypy is being developed by python developers and they will be happy to see a ruby, perl, logo or whatever language implemented with pypy. We are talking about tools, not religions. Those who use them to create useful, real life applications know it. Soon, we will be able to use python libraries from ruby and the other way around. the differences will be just a matter of taste, different syntax to achieve the same tasks. Luis -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
OK je.s.t... whatever, We see where you stand. And also see that by removing your comments from the archive in 5 days, how small your acorns really are. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Dec 22, 1:50 pm, Luis M. González luis...@gmail.com wrote: On Dec 22, 3:44 pm, r rt8...@gmail.com wrote: Steve Holden What makes you assume this is a zero-sum game, and that Python won't survive if any other language becomes popular. Every language borrows from those that came before it. Terms like outright plagiarism don't encourage rational debate, and make you seem like a troll who is more interested in stirring up controversy than actually doing things to help promote the language. This is a war Steve, and i will explain why. Python does not need to compete with perl, lisp, C, basic, etc, etc. WHY, well because python is SO radically different than those languages. Ruby on the other hand, took most from python, the only difference is Ruby's full OO integration.(12.method()). Since Ruby is so similar to python we must consider that some people who would have found only python in this niche now could go to Ruby. I am for choices, but this is out and out robbery! Of course we must stand on the shoulders of greater minds than our own to get ahead, but using someone's knowledge against them is wrong. If Ruby want's to incorporate so many Pythonian ideas into their language, at least put a note in the tutorial giving credit to Guido for his wisdom. Don't use our ideas and then bash python in the next breath! I have an article about the Zen coming up in Python Magazine so I won't steal its thunder. Suffice it to say that people take the Zen far too seriously. Anyone who does so undermines their own credibility as a Python commentator. This isn't a war. Stop being childish. I was speaking to the loyalty of Pythonista's. Of course we are not really going to slay mats, come on Steve, get real! If all you want from a language is speed, go use C. I would avoid assembly language though, since a modern optimizing C compiler will often beat an assembly language programmer for execution speed, and the programming time will definitely be shorter. But to make speed the be-all and end-all is a witless approach. Speed is definitely not why dynamic languages' popularity is increasing. Speed *is* still relevant in certain areas, and completely irrelevant in others. Come on Steve, i am NOT saying speed is the only thing that matters here! But it is very important. I never compared Python to C, that is madness. But it must be better, faster, smarter than it's direct competition(ruby)... you agree?? Much more of this kind of tripe and nobody will read what you write anyway. You will hear the plonking of a hundred thousand newsreaders every time you post. Oh Steve... Listen, my words are ment as a wake-up-call to all who still love Python, and i believe you are one of them. Maybe old age has slowed your hand, that's OK, Us youngsters will take the helm. And be serious, do you really think this group is read by hundreds-of- thousands of news readers? I wish it were, but I highly doubt it. Dude, calm down... There is no war here. Please turn off your computer, go take a walk for awhile, experience some real life in the outer world, and then think about this again. Python is cool language, Ruby too. We are all happy and competition is good. Nobody will win this war and the loser won't be annihilated. I hope there will be some healthy cross-pollination. There is actually, for example python borrowed list-comprehensions from haskell and I've never heard any haskell fan calling for jihad. Did you know that people are looking forward to use pypy to create a fast ruby implementation? Pypy is being developed by python developers and they will be happy to see a ruby, perl, logo or whatever language implemented with pypy. We are talking about tools, not religions. Those who use them to create useful, real life applications know it. Soon, we will be able to use python libraries from ruby and the other way around. the differences will be just a matter of taste, different syntax to achieve the same tasks. Luis Your right, Python needs Ruby, and do you know why??? The same reason MS needs, Mac Linux. So they do not fall asleep at the wheel! This keeps MS on there toes(although still no explanation for their piss- poor product). Python needs Ruby so we don't fall asleep. Ruby may be the best thing that happened to Python. Wake Up people! The writing is on the Wall! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
je.s.t...@hehxduhmp.org wrote: r rt8...@gmail.com wrote: We see where you stand. And also see that by removing your comments from the archive in 5 days, how small your acorns really are. What is the archive, Google Groups? You do realize that's not the entirety of Usenet, correct? It's the predominant archive of USENET, but it's not the only one that respects your X-No-Archive header. GMane, for example, will respect it if the list admin has not requested otherwise. -- Robert Kern I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth. -- Umberto Eco -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Dec 22, 3:13 pm, je.s.t...@hehxduhmp.org wrote: r rt8...@gmail.com wrote: We see where you stand. And also see that by removing your comments from the archive in 5 days, how small your acorns really are. What is the archive, Google Groups? You do realize that's not the entirety of Usenet, correct? Absolutely, but why do you wish to remove your post. Do you not stand behind everything you say? I do, and if a make a mistake i will apologize for it. I have no reason to hide my words from anybody. They will be here from now to eternity. This just makes your thoughts look more drive-by-ish to me. Thats all. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Dec 22, 3:15 pm, je.s.t...@hehxduhmp.org wrote: r rt8...@gmail.com wrote: We see where you stand. And also see that by removing your comments from the archive in 5 days, how small your acorns really are. Also, it is pretty hard to take such accusations seriously from someone who themselves is using a generic gmail address w/o their real name attached to it. If I didn't care about using a proper NNTP client, I could quite easily create some dufus account on Gmail and post through that just like you did - I'm sure that'd really increase my credibility! Would you trust my words more if i used a name like Thurstan Howell III Come on, don't tell me you are that shallow. To attack my credibility solely based on my user name is the sport of small minded people. Surely you can bring more thought, and intelligence to this thread than that?... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Dec 22, 4:44 pm, r rt8...@gmail.com wrote: Oh Steve... Listen, my words are ment as a wake-up-call to all who r, can you do me a favor? Go read the archives of this newsgroup for a month or two, then come back with some perspective. I hope that will make your posts a little less nonsensical and annoying. My words are 'ment' as a shut-up-call, you make as much sense as jeff here: http://www.python.org/doc/humor/#nolo-contendre Daniel P.S.: You think Steve 'one of those who love python'? Geez, he's the one that made us weak in this war by sabotaging a major source of revenue for Python! - http://pyfound.blogspot.com/2006/04/python-25-licensing-change.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
Alvin ONeal wrote: Also worthy of mention: I've seen python pre-installed on consumer HP desktops (I think as part of a backup/restore script, but I'm not sure) It's pre-installed on every Mac (both desktop and laptop), too. Cheers, - Joe -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Dec 22, 11:50 am, Bruno Desthuilliers bdesth.quelquech...@free.quelquepart.fr wrote: When it comes to web development, it seems to me that ruby (because of rails) is far more popular s/popular/hyped/ I'm not so sure. Go to dice.com, enter ruby rails no quotes, search all words, job titles only - I got 86 hits, and another five hits when I searched for RoR. Do the same search, but substitue python django for ruby rails and I get 3 hits. Doing the search for just ruby and I get 121 hits. Doing the search for just python and I get 61 hits. Just rails and get 94 hits, just django and I get 4 hits. Not scientific, but there is substantial difference. Fooled by version numbers ? No, but I am giving django the benefit of the doubt. The django project told people all along that django was not to be considered production ready before 1.0. I will accept that some people decided to wait until 1.0 came out to do any production development. Maybe django is only lagging because 1.0 just came out? My actual CTO is a big Ruby/Rails fan, yet he settled on Python/Django for our current 'big' project. Wonder why ? Not knowing much about RoR: yes, I wonder why? Is it because python has a cleaner syntax? Or what? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Dec 22, 4:16 pm, Joe Strout j...@strout.net wrote: Alvin ONeal wrote: Also worthy of mention: I've seen python pre-installed on consumer HP desktops (I think as part of a backup/restore script, but I'm not sure) It's pre-installed on every Mac (both desktop and laptop), too. Cheers, - Joe I am using a Vista HP right now that came pre-installed with Python. Blew my mind when i found out :). This single reason just reinforced my belief in Python. Now if we can get Python on every windows platform... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Dec 22, 4:14 pm, je.s.t...@hehxduhmp.org wrote: r rt8...@gmail.com wrote: Would you trust my words more if i used a name like Thurstan Howell III Come on, don't tell me you are that shallow. To attack my credibility solely based on my user name is the sport of small minded people. Surely you can bring more thought, and intelligence to this thread than that?... I'm just saying that there's absolutely no more credibility attached to some random anonymous account than there is to someone due to not having X-No-Archive. You are no more accountable for your words than I am. So you might be throwing stones at my use of X-No-Archive, but you are living in a glass house. And for the record, the obfuscation of my email address and the use of X-No-Archive has a lot more to do with random people being able to track me via the internet than it does with believing/not believing what I'm saying. If one wanted to put in some small bit of effort, it isn't particularly difficult to track down usenet posts authored by me from 15ish years ago, but I raise the bar so that any random joker probably won't bother (and making the reverse mapping - knowing my real identity and then looking for recent net activity - is much more difficult to do). An exercise in thought... To go a bit further, what if we could post a picture of ourselves on the Usenet?? What would stop me from posting a picture of someone else besides myself? NOTHING! Do not put your trust in such weak beliefs. My name and picture mean squat on a this medium. If you want to validate my intelligence, use my words, not shallow assumptions. Your logic is like that fruitcake my auntie makes every Christmas. Please put more thought into you post. My words are here and they will stay here, sure some may disagree with my thoughts, but i will not be ashamed of them! Thats called having brass Cohones mi hijo. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
[Jeff] but I raise the bar so that any random joker probably won't bother (and making the reverse mapping - knowing my real identity and then looking for recent net activity - is much more difficult to do) [/Jeff] You are the epitimy of an internet troll. A troll tries to hide his identity. Why are you so concerned about your TRUE identity. Are the FEDS after you, maybe it's the Martians i do not know? Did they take into their spaceship and do things to you? Do you wear a aluminum foil hat. Look out for those cell towers, there mind control devices hahaha. Thanks for the good laugh. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Dec 22, 4:07 pm, r rt8...@gmail.com wrote: On Dec 22, 3:15 pm, je.s.t...@hehxduhmp.org wrote: r rt8...@gmail.com wrote: We see where you stand. And also see that by removing your comments from the archive in 5 days, how small your acorns really are. Also, it is pretty hard to take such accusations seriously from someone who themselves is using a generic gmail address w/o their real name attached to it. If I didn't care about using a proper NNTP client, I could quite easily create some dufus account on Gmail and post through that just like you did - I'm sure that'd really increase my credibility! Would you trust my words more if i used a name like Thurstan Howell III Come on, don't tell me you are that shallow. To attack my credibility solely based on my user name is the sport of small minded people. Surely you can bring more thought, and intelligence to this thread than that?... Us small-minded people have hopes and dreams just like anybody else, Thurston. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Dec 22, 6:18 pm, Aaron Brady castiro...@gmail.com wrote: Us small-minded people have hopes and dreams just like anybody else, Thurston. Now thats the kind of friendly banter this group could use. Instead of people acting as if their bowel-movements smell like bakery fresh cinnamon rolls! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 07:11:02 -0800, walterbyrd wrote: I have read that python is the world's 3rd most popular language Oh, well if it's written down it must be true. But, I can't help but wonder how python's popularity was determined. Why don't you ask the people who made the claim? -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
walterbyrd wrote: [...] Fooled by version numbers ? No, but I am giving django the benefit of the doubt. The django project told people all along that django was not to be considered production ready before 1.0. I will accept that some people decided to wait until 1.0 came out to do any production development. Maybe django is only lagging because 1.0 just came out? The Django people said no such thing. They maintained the trunk as stable - they test so well that many people did indeed rely on the trunk for production systems. They did, sensibly in my opinion, refuse to promise that the 1.0 release would be backward-compatible with the development versions. Indeed they frequently changed the trunk in incompatible ways while they were working to find the best APIs, and this only affected those brave or stupid enough to update their Django installation automatically as checkins were made. Anyone would expect trouble doing that, and yet the affected sites were usually easily fixed, thanks to the project's conscientious maintenance of a list of incompatible changes. My actual CTO is a big Ruby/Rails fan, yet he settled on Python/Django for our current 'big' project. Wonder why ? Not knowing much about RoR: yes, I wonder why? Is it because python has a cleaner syntax? Or what? It's because he decided that Django was the best tool for the particular job, making him unusually open-minded for a member of the pointy-haired species. Unlike some on this list he doesn't let his prejudices blind him to reality. regards Steve -- Steve Holden+1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 10:01:21 -0800, r wrote: Walter, I just look at the stats for comp.lang.python, and i am 9th place for most post this month. And about 9,000th place for useful information. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
r wrote: [Jeff] but I raise the bar so that any random joker probably won't bother (and making the reverse mapping - knowing my real identity and then looking for recent net activity - is much more difficult to do) [/Jeff] You are the epitimy of an internet troll. A troll tries to hide his identity. Why are you so concerned about your TRUE identity. Are the FEDS after you, maybe it's the Martians i do not know? Did they take into their spaceship and do things to you? Do you wear a aluminum foil hat. Look out for those cell towers, there mind control devices hahaha. Thanks for the good laugh. Pot, meet kettle. Kettle: pot. -- Steve Holden+1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Python's popularity
Alvin ONeal wrote: Also worthy of mention: I've seen python pre-installed on consumer HP desktops (I think as part of a backup/restore script, but I'm not sure) It's pre-installed on every Mac (both desktop and laptop), too. I am using a Vista HP right now that came pre-installed with Python. Blew my mind when i found out :). This single reason just reinforced my belief in Python. Now if we can get Python on every windows platform... Check out IronPython. Fully supported and FUNDED by Micro$oft! http://www.codeplex.com/Wiki/View.aspx?ProjectName=IronPython Lance Ellinghaus -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Dec 22, 2008, at 5:16 PM, Joe Strout wrote: Alvin ONeal wrote: Also worthy of mention: I've seen python pre-installed on consumer HP desktops (I think as part of a backup/restore script, but I'm not sure) It's pre-installed on every Mac (both desktop and laptop), too. Mac and a lot of linux distros use python as an integral part of their OS development, so most of these actually come with some python pre-installed (and one should not remove it unless you want to screw up your OS). Cheers Tommy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Dec 22, 7:34 pm, Steven D'Aprano ste...@remove.this.cybersource.com.au wrote: On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 10:01:21 -0800, r wrote: Walter, I just look at the stats for comp.lang.python, and i am 9th place for most post this month. And about 9,000th place for useful information. -- Steven I think you missed my point Steven, I was in no way proud of the fact of my 9th place rating. It just proves my point to the small following of this group. And frankly makes me feel bad. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Dec 22, 2008, at 9:51 PM, r rt8...@gmail.com wrote: On Dec 22, 7:34 pm, Steven D'Aprano ste...@remove.this.cybersource.com.au wrote: On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 10:01:21 -0800, r wrote: Walter, I just look at the stats for comp.lang.python, and i am 9th place for most post this month. And about 9,000th place for useful information. -- Steven I think you missed my point Steven, I was in no way proud of the fact of my 9th place rating. It just proves my point to the small following of this group. And frankly makes me feel bad. That's just because most of us don't say anything unless we have something useful to say. We prefer to let the experts answer the questions, but we read the threads so we can benefit from them. Steven was pointing out that the number of posts you made has nothing to do with the overall audience of this list or how much real content you are contributing -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On 2008-12-22, Joe Strout j...@strout.net wrote: Alvin ONeal wrote: Also worthy of mention: I've seen python pre-installed on consumer HP desktops (I think as part of a backup/restore script, but I'm not sure) It's pre-installed on every Mac (both desktop and laptop), too. IIRC, Python came pre-installed on my IBM Thinkpad. However, it wasn't anyplace the average user would stumble across it... -- Grant -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
The average user thinks python is only a very large snake! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Dec 22, 10:09 pm, Ben Kaplan bs...@case.edu wrote: That's just because most of us don't say anything unless we have something useful to say. We prefer to let the experts answer the questions, but we read the threads so we can benefit from them. OK Ben, So you are saying 1.) do not question the gods! 2.) speak only when spoken to! 3.) do not have an opinion! Somehow this reminds me of some old and brainwashing religions, Not an OSS project. Just observations Ben. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's popularity
On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 04:35:42 -, Grant Edwards gra...@visi.com wrote: IIRC, Python came pre-installed on my IBM Thinkpad. However, it wasn't anyplace the average user would stumble across it... The suggestively named IBMTOOLS directory, I believe :-) -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste Herder to the Masses -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
