Re: Python Web App
@Katie Thank you I considered this option until I realized it wouldn't let me do anything other than ping from the command line. The rest of you all make valid points after doing a little more research on my own I found some really nice web based text editors but they didn't have any testing abilities which meant learning in that environment wasn't feasible in my opinion. I am inclined to agree that chrome OS will probably not do as well as they want it to but with the kind of capital Google has they could easily flood the market. In the end I wound up giving the notebook to my mom because all she really does is check her email and Facebook so it was perfect for her. Thank You for all the responses they were a great help with me testing the notebook. On Dec 25, 9:02 pm, Katie T ka...@coderstack.co.uk wrote: On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 9:43 PM, Sean secr...@gmail.com wrote: Anybody know where I can find a Python Development Environment in the form of a web app for use with Chrome OS. I have been looking for a few days and all i have been able to find is some old discussions with python developers talking about they will want one for the OS to be a success with them. Your best bet is probably just to SSH to a *nix box and use something like vim or emacs. None of the web solutions are anywhere near acceptable. Katie -- CoderStackhttp://www.coderstack.co.uk/python-jobs The Software Developer Job Board -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Web App
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 9:43 PM, Sean secr...@gmail.com wrote: Anybody know where I can find a Python Development Environment in the form of a web app for use with Chrome OS. I have been looking for a few days and all i have been able to find is some old discussions with python developers talking about they will want one for the OS to be a success with them. Your best bet is probably just to SSH to a *nix box and use something like vim or emacs. None of the web solutions are anywhere near acceptable. Katie -- CoderStack http://www.coderstack.co.uk/python-jobs The Software Developer Job Board -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Web App
Anybody know where I can find a Python Development Environment in the form of a web app for use with Chrome OS. I have been looking for a few days and all i have been able to find is some old discussions with python developers talking about they will want one for the OS to be a success with them. Personally, I think a web app based IDE would be ghastly; but, you might have a look at Mozilla Skywriter (formerly Bespin): Why grashtly? I don't personally think the web makes a good framework for highly interactive applications as they must work within the constraints of the browser and IDEs are highly interactive applications by their very nature. Perhaps HTML5/CSS3 will change things; but, standard DOM manipulation, as I am accustomed to seeing it, cannot generate the kind of rendering that is available from native applications. Attempts to do so end up being kludgy. It also cannot handle the kinds of desktop integrations that are common for native applications without opening up serious security trust issues. (Can everybody say ActiveX fiasco?) So, in essence, you are predicting that google's chrome OS will be a failure, right? Finally, there are difficulties in handling keystrokes without conflicting with the browser's native key bindings. I seldom ever touch a mouse and I am a huge fan of vi, mutt, slrn, screen, ratpoison, etc. where the primary interface is totally accessable through the keyboard without having to tab through many options. Well, implementing vi or other text based tools in the browser is trivial. I mean it will function in exactly the same way as a native vi. Cheers, Daniel -- Psss, psss, put it down! - http://www.cafepress.com/putitdown -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Web App
From: Daniel Fetchinson fetchin...@googlemail.com Anybody know where I can find a Python Development Environment in the form of a web app for use with Chrome OS. I have been looking for a few days and all i have been able to find is some old discussions with python developers talking about they will want one for the OS to be a success with them. Personally, I think a web app based IDE would be ghastly; but, you might have a look at Mozilla Skywriter (formerly Bespin): Why grashtly? I don't personally think the web makes a good framework for highly interactive applications as they must work within the constraints of the browser and IDEs are highly interactive applications by their very nature. Perhaps HTML5/CSS3 will change things; but, standard DOM manipulation, as I am accustomed to seeing it, cannot generate the kind of rendering that is available from native applications. Attempts to do so end up being kludgy. It also cannot handle the kinds of desktop integrations that are common for native applications without opening up serious security trust issues. (Can everybody say ActiveX fiasco?) So, in essence, you are predicting that google's chrome OS will be a failure, right? It will surely be. But it won't, because Google's monopoly in an important field will help it to promote that OS, not because that OS will be so great. Finally, there are difficulties in handling keystrokes without conflicting with the browser's native key bindings. I seldom ever touch a mouse and I am a huge fan of vi, mutt, slrn, screen, ratpoison, etc. where the primary interface is totally accessable through the keyboard without having to tab through many options. Well, implementing vi or other text based tools in the browser is trivial. I mean it will function in exactly the same way as a native vi. Not exactly. Because not all the computer users can see, and the browsers don't offer the same accessibility features for screen readers as the standard GUIS. (And Google's software is very poor in this field anyway.) Octavian -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Web App
On 2010-12-23, Daniel Fetchinson fetchin...@googlemail.com wrote: I don't personally think the web makes a good framework for highly interactive applications as they must work within the constraints of the browser and IDEs are highly interactive applications by their very nature. Perhaps HTML5/CSS3 will change things; but, standard DOM manipulation, as I am accustomed to seeing it, cannot generate the kind of rendering that is available from native applications. Attempts to do so end up being kludgy. It also cannot handle the kinds of desktop integrations that are common for native applications without opening up serious security trust issues. (Can everybody say ActiveX fiasco?) So, in essence, you are predicting that google's chrome OS will be a failure, right? No, most people are happy using web based email interfaces and never even know that native email clients exist. More is the pity. Finally, there are difficulties in handling keystrokes without conflicting with the browser's native key bindings. I seldom ever touch a mouse and I am a huge fan of vi, mutt, slrn, screen, ratpoison, etc. where the primary interface is totally accessable through the keyboard without having to tab through many options. Well, implementing vi or other text based tools in the browser is trivial. I mean it will function in exactly the same way as a native vi. Not exactly. I occassionally use web based terminals (Ajaxterm, Anyterm, Shellinabox, etc) to access my systems. This works only partially since many of the keystrokes I use conflict with keystrokes that the browser uses or which cause signals that the browser either does not catch or does not pass on to be accessed by client side scripting. The terminals must therefore place buttons or synthetic keyboards on the screen to allow you to simulate the keystrokes. That kind of negates the advantages of keystrokes in the first place. It doesn't make fore a pleasant experience. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Python Web App
Anybody know where I can find a Python Development Environment in the form of a web app for use with Chrome OS. I have been looking for a few days and all i have been able to find is some old discussions with python developers talking about they will want one for the OS to be a success with them. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Web App
I am creating one, is on test, what kind of app do you want create? 2010/12/22, Sean secr...@gmail.com: Anybody know where I can find a Python Development Environment in the form of a web app for use with Chrome OS. I have been looking for a few days and all i have been able to find is some old discussions with python developers talking about they will want one for the OS to be a success with them. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- Enviado desde mi dispositivo móvil Diego I. Hidalgo D. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Web App
On 2010-12-22, Sean secr...@gmail.com wrote: Anybody know where I can find a Python Development Environment in the form of a web app for use with Chrome OS. I have been looking for a few days and all i have been able to find is some old discussions with python developers talking about they will want one for the OS to be a success with them. Personally, I think a web app based IDE would be ghastly; but, you might have a look at Mozilla Skywriter (formerly Bespin): https://mozillalabs.com/skywriter/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Web App
Why grashtly? 2010/12/22, Tim Harig user...@ilthio.net: On 2010-12-22, Sean secr...@gmail.com wrote: Anybody know where I can find a Python Development Environment in the form of a web app for use with Chrome OS. I have been looking for a few days and all i have been able to find is some old discussions with python developers talking about they will want one for the OS to be a success with them. Personally, I think a web app based IDE would be ghastly; but, you might have a look at Mozilla Skywriter (formerly Bespin): https://mozillalabs.com/skywriter/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- Enviado desde mi dispositivo móvil Diego I. Hidalgo D. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Web App
I am wanting to learn python and I am test a Chrome OS notebook at the same time so I need something that will atleast tell me if I have any syntax errors. Although the more features the better that way learning is an easier experience. On Dec 22, 7:05 pm, Hidura hid...@gmail.com wrote: I am creating one, is on test, what kind of app do you want create? 2010/12/22, Sean secr...@gmail.com: Anybody know where I can find a Python Development Environment in the form of a web app for use with Chrome OS. I have been looking for a few days and all i have been able to find is some old discussions with python developers talking about they will want one for the OS to be a success with them. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- Enviado desde mi dispositivo móvil Diego I. Hidalgo D. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Web App
Forgot to point out that Chrome OS has no local storage accessable to the user. Hence why I need a web based solution. On Dec 22, 8:51 pm, Sean secr...@gmail.com wrote: I am wanting to learn python and I am test a Chrome OS notebook at the same time so I need something that will atleast tell me if I have any syntax errors. Although the more features the better that way learning is an easier experience. On Dec 22, 7:05 pm, Hidura hid...@gmail.com wrote: I am creating one, is on test, what kind of app do you want create? 2010/12/22, Sean secr...@gmail.com: Anybody know where I can find a Python Development Environment in the form of a web app for use with Chrome OS. I have been looking for a few days and all i have been able to find is some old discussions with python developers talking about they will want one for the OS to be a success with them. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- Enviado desde mi dispositivo móvil Diego I. Hidalgo D. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Web App
Use editarea, that's the best option if you want something small, but as i said before i am developing a framework that allows you to create app's from the web and is much more complete than editarea. 2010/12/22, Sean secr...@gmail.com: I am wanting to learn python and I am test a Chrome OS notebook at the same time so I need something that will atleast tell me if I have any syntax errors. Although the more features the better that way learning is an easier experience. On Dec 22, 7:05 pm, Hidura hid...@gmail.com wrote: I am creating one, is on test, what kind of app do you want create? 2010/12/22, Sean secr...@gmail.com: Anybody know where I can find a Python Development Environment in the form of a web app for use with Chrome OS. I have been looking for a few days and all i have been able to find is some old discussions with python developers talking about they will want one for the OS to be a success with them. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- Enviado desde mi dispositivo móvil Diego I. Hidalgo D. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- Enviado desde mi dispositivo móvil Diego I. Hidalgo D. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Web App
My framework let you store online on a hosting server that the same framework provide. 2010/12/22, Hidura hid...@gmail.com: Use editarea, that's the best option if you want something small, but as i said before i am developing a framework that allows you to create app's from the web and is much more complete than editarea. 2010/12/22, Sean secr...@gmail.com: I am wanting to learn python and I am test a Chrome OS notebook at the same time so I need something that will atleast tell me if I have any syntax errors. Although the more features the better that way learning is an easier experience. On Dec 22, 7:05 pm, Hidura hid...@gmail.com wrote: I am creating one, is on test, what kind of app do you want create? 2010/12/22, Sean secr...@gmail.com: Anybody know where I can find a Python Development Environment in the form of a web app for use with Chrome OS. I have been looking for a few days and all i have been able to find is some old discussions with python developers talking about they will want one for the OS to be a success with them. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- Enviado desde mi dispositivo móvil Diego I. Hidalgo D. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- Enviado desde mi dispositivo móvil Diego I. Hidalgo D. -- Enviado desde mi dispositivo móvil Diego I. Hidalgo D. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Web App
[Reordered to preserve context in bottom posting] On 2010-12-23, Hidura hid...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/12/22, Tim Harig user...@ilthio.net: On 2010-12-22, Sean secr...@gmail.com wrote: Anybody know where I can find a Python Development Environment in the form of a web app for use with Chrome OS. I have been looking for a few days and all i have been able to find is some old discussions with python developers talking about they will want one for the OS to be a success with them. Personally, I think a web app based IDE would be ghastly; but, you might have a look at Mozilla Skywriter (formerly Bespin): Why grashtly? I don't personally think the web makes a good framework for highly interactive applications as they must work within the constraints of the browser and IDEs are highly interactive applications by their very nature. Perhaps HTML5/CSS3 will change things; but, standard DOM manipulation, as I am accustomed to seeing it, cannot generate the kind of rendering that is available from native applications. Attempts to do so end up being kludgy. It also cannot handle the kinds of desktop integrations that are common for native applications without opening up serious security trust issues. (Can everybody say ActiveX fiasco?) Finally, there are difficulties in handling keystrokes without conflicting with the browser's native key bindings. I seldom ever touch a mouse and I am a huge fan of vi, mutt, slrn, screen, ratpoison, etc. where the primary interface is totally accessable through the keyboard without having to tab through many options. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Web App
Ok, but you are comparing a web-based framework with a native-based framework that use the components of the system to make all the things that need, a web-based framewok use the resourses of the browser to make it all, so the developer that use a framework on the web can't expect get the same results, in my case i beleive that a web-based framework adjust better to the needs if you'll make a web-app, otherwise use eclipse or netbeans. 2010/12/22, Tim Harig user...@ilthio.net: [Reordered to preserve context in bottom posting] On 2010-12-23, Hidura hid...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/12/22, Tim Harig user...@ilthio.net: On 2010-12-22, Sean secr...@gmail.com wrote: Anybody know where I can find a Python Development Environment in the form of a web app for use with Chrome OS. I have been looking for a few days and all i have been able to find is some old discussions with python developers talking about they will want one for the OS to be a success with them. Personally, I think a web app based IDE would be ghastly; but, you might have a look at Mozilla Skywriter (formerly Bespin): Why grashtly? I don't personally think the web makes a good framework for highly interactive applications as they must work within the constraints of the browser and IDEs are highly interactive applications by their very nature. Perhaps HTML5/CSS3 will change things; but, standard DOM manipulation, as I am accustomed to seeing it, cannot generate the kind of rendering that is available from native applications. Attempts to do so end up being kludgy. It also cannot handle the kinds of desktop integrations that are common for native applications without opening up serious security trust issues. (Can everybody say ActiveX fiasco?) Finally, there are difficulties in handling keystrokes without conflicting with the browser's native key bindings. I seldom ever touch a mouse and I am a huge fan of vi, mutt, slrn, screen, ratpoison, etc. where the primary interface is totally accessable through the keyboard without having to tab through many options. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- Enviado desde mi dispositivo móvil Diego I. Hidalgo D. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Web App
On 2010-12-23, Hidura hid...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, but you are comparing a web-based framework with a native-based framework that use the components of the system to make all the things that need, a web-based framewok use the resourses of the browser to Right. That is exactly what I am comparing. make it all, so the developer that use a framework on the web can't expect get the same results, in my case i beleive that a web-based Which is exactly the problem with web apps that are highly interactive. My suggestion, is not to develope a web based IDE or use one. It just isn't something that the web was designed to do well. expect get the same results, in my case i beleive that a web-based framework adjust better to the needs if you'll make a web-app, Most IDEs that are targeted at web developement have a built in web browser or strong integration with one to run the web app as you are developing it. I don't see any advantage or the necessity of actually running the IDE code itself in the browser. otherwise use eclipse or netbeans. I would; but then, I wouldn't purchase an operating system that is entirely based on a web browser. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Re: Python Web App
Which is exactly the problem with web apps that are highly interactive. My suggestion, is not to develope a web based IDE or use one. It just isn't something that the web was designed to do well. Is not a problem of the IDE, the problem is on what the developer expect as i said i you want something to the desktop well use an IDE that creates apps for desktop, but if you need something for the web you can try on a web-based IDE. Most IDEs that are targeted at web developement have a built in web browser or strong integration with one to run the web app as you are developing it. I don't see any advantage or the necessity of actually running the IDE code itself in the browser. That's the problem an integration with one, my IDE works on all of them and the result is the same in IE and Chrome or FF, a web page cannot be designed to one browser it has to be designed to all the browser and have to be same. On the visualization is more difficult but nobody could control perfectly that but on the results of the data is has to be the same. I would; but then, I wouldn't purchase an operating system that is entirely based on a web browser. I support that, but the target of those OS are use the share resources of the pc, smartphone, etc and the server. On Dec 22, 2010 11:54pm, Tim Harig user...@ilthio.net wrote: On 2010-12-23, Hidura hid...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, but you are comparing a web-based framework with a native-based framework that use the components of the system to make all the things that need, a web-based framewok use the resourses of the browser to Right. That is exactly what I am comparing. make it all, so the developer that use a framework on the web can't expect get the same results, in my case i beleive that a web-based Which is exactly the problem with web apps that are highly interactive. My suggestion, is not to develope a web based IDE or use one. It just isn't something that the web was designed to do well. expect get the same results, in my case i beleive that a web-based framework adjust better to the needs if you'll make a web-app, Most IDEs that are targeted at web developement have a built in web browser or strong integration with one to run the web app as you are developing it. I don't see any advantage or the necessity of actually running the IDE code itself in the browser. otherwise use eclipse or netbeans. I would; but then, I wouldn't purchase an operating system that is entirely based on a web browser. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: My very first python web app (no framework)
On 2007-12-10, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9 Dic, 15:43, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is it the right way to go? Is it safe in a web production environment ? Is it thread-friendly (since flup is threaded) ? tnx Any hint ? If you as author are asking, my bet is on no for safety. Albert -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: My very first python web app (no framework)
On 9 Dic, 15:43, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
This is my first Python web pseudo-app: you give me some data, I give
you func(data). I'm on a shared host with mod_fastcgi so I installed
a virtual python environment + flup (no middleware now, just wsgi
server).
= dispatch.fcgi =
from fcgi import WSGIServer
import sys, cgi, cgitb,os
import myfunctions
def myapp(environ, start_response):
start_response('200 OK', [('Content-Type', 'text/html')])
write = []
write.append (myfunctions.func1(par1,par2))
write.append (myfunctions.func2(par1,par2))
# [...]
write.append (myfunctions.funcn(par1,par2))
return [write]
if __name__==__main__:
WSGIServer(myapp).run()
== myfunctions.py ==
def func1(a,b):
return a
def func2(a,b):
return b
Is it the right way to go? Is it safe in a web production
environment ? Is it thread-friendly (since flup is threaded) ?
tnx
Any hint ?
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
[newbie] My very first python web app (no framework)
This is my first Python web pseudo-app: you give me some data, I give
you func(data). I'm on a shared host with mod_fastcgi so I installed
a virtual python environment + flup (no middleware now, just wsgi
server).
= dispatch.fcgi =
from fcgi import WSGIServer
import sys, cgi, cgitb,os
import myfunctions
def myapp(environ, start_response):
start_response('200 OK', [('Content-Type', 'text/html')])
write = []
write.append (myfunctions.func1(par1,par2))
write.append (myfunctions.func2(par1,par2))
# [...]
write.append (myfunctions.funcn(par1,par2))
return [write]
if __name__==__main__:
WSGIServer(myapp).run()
== myfunctions.py ==
def func1(a,b):
return a
def func2(a,b):
return b
Is it the right way to go? Is it safe in a web production
environment ? Is it thread-friendly (since flup is threaded) ?
tnx
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python web app. (advice sought)
On 16/01/07, Ralf Schönian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would also like to vote for Karrigell. BTW: Does anyone knows how to avoid stopping/starting of the webserver after changing external libraries? I have some own modules under /opt/local/python/lib and import them by extending the path with sys.path.append() After changing any file here, I have to restart Karrigell. Ralf, you should ask this on the Karrigell list :) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python web app. (advice sought)
Duncan Smith wrote: Hello, I find myself in the, for me, unusual (and at the moment unique) position of having to write a web application. I have quite a lot of existing Python code that will form part of the business logic. This relies on 3rd party libraries (such as numpy) which would make porting to e.g. IronPython difficult (I would imagine). I was thinking LAMP (the P standing for Python, of course), particularly as I was originally encouraged to go for open source solutions. The application will provide some basic statistical analyses of data contained in database tables and associated plots (R / matplotlib / graphviz). There will also be some heavier duty Monte Carlo simulation and graphical modelling / MCMC. The user(s) will need to be able to set model parameters; maybe even tinker with model structure, so it will be very interactive (AJAX?). I've had a look at Django, Turbogears and Plone, and at the moment I am torn between Turbogears and Plone. I get the impression that Turbogears will require me to write more non-Python code, but maybe Plone is more than I need (steeper learning curve?). Maybe Turbogears will lead to a more loosely coupled app. than Plone? The disconcerting thing is that others on the project (who won't be developing) have started to talk about a LAMP back end with an IIS front end, .NET, and the benefits of sharepoint. The emphasis is supposed to be on rapid development, and these technologies are supposed to help. But I have no real familiarity with them at all; just Python, C and SQL to any realistic level of competence. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I have to do much of the statistical work too, so I need to make good choices (and hopefully be able to justify them so nobody else on the project makes inappropriate choices for me). e.g. I don't mind learning Javascript if it doesn't take too long. The physical server will initially be a multiprocessor machine with several GB of RAM. But we also have a cluster (I have no details, I only started the project a week ago). So any advice regarding parallelisation would also be appreciated (or, in fact, any useful advice / pointers at all). Thanks. Duncan I was in a similar boat a while back, needing to make a decision on what to use for our web development. I had worked with Plone previously and found that for our needs it wasn't going to work. Our web development was quite specific and didn't fit ideally into the standard content management realm. I also looked at Django and TurboGears, installing and working with each. I eventually went with Django, and I've really enjoyed working with it. Was a personal choice and I'm sure our development would have been as successful if I'd chosen TurboGears. If you want the strength of persistent layers, MVC, templating etc etc but want to stay away from the heavier frameworks, another possibility is http://webpy.org/. Very simple to implement, lightweight yet still fairly full of features. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python web app. (advice sought)
On 15 Jan 2007 00:52:33 -0800, Torabisu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Duncan Smith wrote: Hello, I find myself in the, for me, unusual (and at the moment unique) position of having to write a web application. I have quite a lot of existing Python code that will form part of the business logic. This relies on 3rd party libraries (such as numpy) which would make porting to e.g. IronPython difficult (I would imagine). I was thinking LAMP (the P standing for Python, of course), particularly as I was originally encouraged to go for open source solutions. The application will provide some basic statistical analyses of data contained in database tables and associated plots (R / matplotlib / graphviz). There will also be some heavier duty Monte Carlo simulation and graphical modelling / MCMC. The user(s) will need to be able to set model parameters; maybe even tinker with model structure, so it will be very interactive (AJAX?). I've had a look at Django, Turbogears and Plone, and at the moment I am torn between Turbogears and Plone. I get the impression that Turbogears will require me to write more non-Python code, but maybe Plone is more than I need (steeper learning curve?). Maybe Turbogears will lead to a more loosely coupled app. than Plone? The disconcerting thing is that others on the project (who won't be developing) have started to talk about a LAMP back end with an IIS front end, .NET, and the benefits of sharepoint. The emphasis is supposed to be on rapid development, and these technologies are supposed to help. But I have no real familiarity with them at all; just Python, C and SQL to any realistic level of competence. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I have to do much of the statistical work too, so I need to make good choices (and hopefully be able to justify them so nobody else on the project makes inappropriate choices for me). e.g. I don't mind learning Javascript if it doesn't take too long. The physical server will initially be a multiprocessor machine with several GB of RAM. But we also have a cluster (I have no details, I only started the project a week ago). So any advice regarding parallelisation would also be appreciated (or, in fact, any useful advice / pointers at all). Thanks. Duncan I was in a similar boat a while back, needing to make a decision on what to use for our web development. I had worked with Plone previously and found that for our needs it wasn't going to work. Our web development was quite specific and didn't fit ideally into the standard content management realm. I also looked at Django and TurboGears, installing and working with each. I eventually went with Django, and I've really enjoyed working with it. Was a personal choice and I'm sure our development would have been as successful if I'd chosen TurboGears. If you want the strength of persistent layers, MVC, templating etc etc but want to stay away from the heavier frameworks, another possibility is http://webpy.org/. Very simple to implement, lightweight yet still fairly full of features. Don't overlook Karrigell either, with a tiny learning curve its always worth consideration, especially if you need rapid development and a web server that will sit on top of your exising .py modules. www.karrigell.com hth :) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python web app. (advice sought)
Tim Williams wrote: On 15 Jan 2007 00:52:33 -0800, Torabisu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Duncan Smith wrote: Hello, I find myself in the, for me, unusual (and at the moment unique) position of having to write a web application. I have quite a lot of existing Python code that will form part of the business logic. This relies on 3rd party libraries (such as numpy) which would make porting to e.g. IronPython difficult (I would imagine). I was thinking LAMP (the P standing for Python, of course), particularly as I was originally encouraged to go for open source solutions. The application will provide some basic statistical analyses of data contained in database tables and associated plots (R / matplotlib / graphviz). There will also be some heavier duty Monte Carlo simulation and graphical modelling / MCMC. The user(s) will need to be able to set model parameters; maybe even tinker with model structure, so it will be very interactive (AJAX?). I've had a look at Django, Turbogears and Plone, and at the moment I am torn between Turbogears and Plone. I get the impression that Turbogears will require me to write more non-Python code, but maybe Plone is more than I need (steeper learning curve?). Maybe Turbogears will lead to a more loosely coupled app. than Plone? The disconcerting thing is that others on the project (who won't be developing) have started to talk about a LAMP back end with an IIS front end, .NET, and the benefits of sharepoint. The emphasis is supposed to be on rapid development, and these technologies are supposed to help. But I have no real familiarity with them at all; just Python, C and SQL to any realistic level of competence. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I have to do much of the statistical work too, so I need to make good choices (and hopefully be able to justify them so nobody else on the project makes inappropriate choices for me). e.g. I don't mind learning Javascript if it doesn't take too long. The physical server will initially be a multiprocessor machine with several GB of RAM. But we also have a cluster (I have no details, I only started the project a week ago). So any advice regarding parallelisation would also be appreciated (or, in fact, any useful advice / pointers at all). Thanks. Duncan I was in a similar boat a while back, needing to make a decision on what to use for our web development. I had worked with Plone previously and found that for our needs it wasn't going to work. Our web development was quite specific and didn't fit ideally into the standard content management realm. I also looked at Django and TurboGears, installing and working with each. I eventually went with Django, and I've really enjoyed working with it. Was a personal choice and I'm sure our development would have been as successful if I'd chosen TurboGears. If you want the strength of persistent layers, MVC, templating etc etc but want to stay away from the heavier frameworks, another possibility is http://webpy.org/. Very simple to implement, lightweight yet still fairly full of features. Don't overlook Karrigell either, with a tiny learning curve its always worth consideration, especially if you need rapid development and a web server that will sit on top of your exising .py modules. www.karrigell.com hth :) Hmm, thanks for the link on Karrigell. Never heard of it till now, quite nice... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python web app. (advice sought)
Duncan Smith wrote: Hello, I find myself in the, for me, unusual (and at the moment unique) position of having to write a web application. I have quite a lot of existing Python code that will form part of the business logic. This relies on 3rd party libraries (such as numpy) which would make porting to e.g. IronPython difficult (I would imagine). I was thinking LAMP (the P standing for Python, of course), particularly as I was originally encouraged to go for open source solutions. The application will provide some basic statistical analyses of data contained in database tables and associated plots (R / matplotlib / graphviz). There will also be some heavier duty Monte Carlo simulation and graphical modelling / MCMC. The user(s) will need to be able to set model parameters; maybe even tinker with model structure, so it will be very interactive (AJAX?). I've had a look at Django, Turbogears and Plone, and at the moment I am torn between Turbogears and Plone. I assume it will be an application with few users and no particular need for security. Read PEP 333, use the wsgiref server which is in the standard library (starting from Python 2.5+), have a look at Paste and write your own solution. At the least this is the way I did it. Michele Simionato -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python web app. (advice sought)
Duncan Smith a écrit : Hello, I find myself in the, for me, unusual (and at the moment unique) position of having to write a web application. I have quite a lot of existing Python code that will form part of the business logic. This relies on 3rd party libraries (such as numpy) which would make porting to e.g. IronPython difficult (I would imagine). I was thinking LAMP (the P standing for Python, of course), particularly as I was originally encouraged to go for open source solutions. The application will provide some basic statistical analyses of data contained in database tables and associated plots (R / matplotlib / graphviz). There will also be some heavier duty Monte Carlo simulation and graphical modelling / MCMC. The user(s) will need to be able to set model parameters; maybe even tinker with model structure, so it will be very interactive (AJAX?). I've had a look at Django, Turbogears and Plone, and at the moment I am torn between Turbogears and Plone. I get the impression that Turbogears will require me to write more non-Python code, ??? but maybe Plone is more than I need (steeper learning curve?). Maybe Turbogears will lead to a more loosely coupled app. than Plone? Plone is nice for content management (well, it's a CMS, isn't it ?), but I certainly wouldn't choose it for the kind off application you are describing. A simpler, lighter MVC framework would be far more appropriate IMHO. Turbogears may be a good choice, but you may also want to have a look at web.py and Pylons. The disconcerting thing is that others on the project (who won't be developing) have started to talk about a LAMP back end with an IIS front end, .NET, and the benefits of sharepoint. My my my... The emphasis is supposed to be on rapid development, and these technologies are supposed to help. But I have no real familiarity with them at all; just Python, C and SQL to any realistic level of competence. Then go for the simplest thing. My 2 cents... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python web app. (advice sought)
Duncan Smith wrote: I've had a look at Django, Turbogears and Plone, and at the moment I am torn between Turbogears and Plone. I Plone is not suited for the type of application you are building (as others have pointed out in this thread). Take a second look at TurboGears (or CherryPy for that matter). You might have discounted Django a bit too soon. It has the best documentation and it is the most consistent framework. You might end up bringing in new people into your project and that will go a lot easier when you have good docs to help them as well. i. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python web app. (advice sought)
Tim Williams schrieb: On 15 Jan 2007 00:52:33 -0800, Torabisu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't overlook Karrigell either, with a tiny learning curve its always worth consideration, especially if you need rapid development and a web server that will sit on top of your exising .py modules. www.karrigell.com hth :) I would also like to vote for Karrigell. BTW: Does anyone knows how to avoid stopping/starting of the webserver after changing external libraries? I have some own modules under /opt/local/python/lib and import them by extending the path with sys.path.append() After changing any file here, I have to restart Karrigell. Ralf Schoenian -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python web app. (advice sought)
Thanks all. It's looking like Turbogears at the moment (unless my boss makes an executive decision). Cheers. Duncan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Python web app. (advice sought)
Hello, I find myself in the, for me, unusual (and at the moment unique) position of having to write a web application. I have quite a lot of existing Python code that will form part of the business logic. This relies on 3rd party libraries (such as numpy) which would make porting to e.g. IronPython difficult (I would imagine). I was thinking LAMP (the P standing for Python, of course), particularly as I was originally encouraged to go for open source solutions. The application will provide some basic statistical analyses of data contained in database tables and associated plots (R / matplotlib / graphviz). There will also be some heavier duty Monte Carlo simulation and graphical modelling / MCMC. The user(s) will need to be able to set model parameters; maybe even tinker with model structure, so it will be very interactive (AJAX?). I've had a look at Django, Turbogears and Plone, and at the moment I am torn between Turbogears and Plone. I get the impression that Turbogears will require me to write more non-Python code, but maybe Plone is more than I need (steeper learning curve?). Maybe Turbogears will lead to a more loosely coupled app. than Plone? The disconcerting thing is that others on the project (who won't be developing) have started to talk about a LAMP back end with an IIS front end, .NET, and the benefits of sharepoint. The emphasis is supposed to be on rapid development, and these technologies are supposed to help. But I have no real familiarity with them at all; just Python, C and SQL to any realistic level of competence. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I have to do much of the statistical work too, so I need to make good choices (and hopefully be able to justify them so nobody else on the project makes inappropriate choices for me). e.g. I don't mind learning Javascript if it doesn't take too long. The physical server will initially be a multiprocessor machine with several GB of RAM. But we also have a cluster (I have no details, I only started the project a week ago). So any advice regarding parallelisation would also be appreciated (or, in fact, any useful advice / pointers at all). Thanks. Duncan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How to create cross-backend python web app
matt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Hi all- I'm trying to port an ajax spell-checker (http://www.broken-notebook.com/spell_checker/index.php) to use with the moin moin wiki and have been somewhat successful. (By successful I mean I can spell check using the php backend and my python port running as cgi-bin). That looks like an interesting application/component. My question is this: moinmoin runs on many python web backends (cgi-bin/mod-python/twisted/standalone). My spell-checker backend runs as cgi (disclaimer: I've done a bit of php and java(struts) web app programming, but the last python related web programming I did was Zope about 5 years ago (does that even count ? ;) )) because that was the easiest for me to get up to speed on. What is the best way to write cross-backend python web apps? Is there any abstraction I can use? Although a kind of Web middleware standard called WSGI [1] has been proposed to somehow alleviate these kinds of problems, I'd recommend using WebStack [2] to implement a cross-backend solution which will run on CGI, mod_python, Twisted, BaseHTTPServer and other technologies. With cgi-bin, I use the python cgi module, which gives me easy access to form variables, but I'd like to be able to deploy in the other backends as well. What's the best way to do this? Or is a rewrite required for each one? Some might argue that writing directly to WSGI would allow you to re-use your CGI-based code moderately easily whilst having some backend portability. I'd argue that WebStack's API is slightly more high-level and that the WebStack distribution should provide you with everything you need to deploy your application on the backends you've chosen (plus others). Either way, you certainly don't need to rewrite your application for every different environment any more. Paul [1] http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0333.html [2] http://www.python.org/pypi/WebStack -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How to create cross-backend python web app
Thanks Paul- I'll look into WebStack. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
How to create cross-backend python web app
Hi all- I'm trying to port an ajax spell-checker (http://www.broken-notebook.com/spell_checker/index.php) to use with the moin moin wiki and have been somewhat successful. (By successful I mean I can spell check using the php backend and my python port running as cgi-bin). My question is this: moinmoin runs on many python web backends (cgi-bin/mod-python/twisted/standalone). My spell-checker backend runs as cgi (disclaimer: I've done a bit of php and java(struts) web app programming, but the last python related web programming I did was Zope about 5 years ago (does that even count ? ;) )) because that was the easiest for me to get up to speed on. What is the best way to write cross-backend python web apps? Is there any abstraction I can use? With cgi-bin, I use the python cgi module, which gives me easy access to form variables, but I'd like to be able to deploy in the other backends as well. What's the best way to do this? Or is a rewrite required for each one? thanks matt -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: advice needed for simple python web app
Dan Perl [EMAIL PROTECTED] said : This is exactly the kind of summary that I think should be in a WebProgrammingShootOut (see another one of my postings in this thread) but I failed to find such a summary. Thanks, Brian! Anyone can add to the list? I myself am also into (very) simple web apps and hence simple, easy-to- learn web frameworks. CherryPy is a very nice kit, still simple enough but already (IMO) somewhat on the powerful, batteries-included side for a beginner -- and, as you noted, a bit under-documented at the moment. There are a couple of others that will get you started without too much effort (in part because simplicity is one of their design points) and without limiting you too much either : Karrigell by Pierre Quentel and Snakelets by Irmen de Jong. They're somewhat similar in scope and concept : it will be mostly a matter of which one 'fits your brain' best. Myself I settled on Snakelets, not least because it has some of the better docs out there. BTW, there are other people who seem to have been also confused by the wide spectrum of choices for this problem: That's an old debate in the Python world, yes. The one true way to do it motto of the language itself doesn't apply to its web frameworks :) See the recent Ruby on Rails threads for a discussion of whether this is good or bad... -- YAFAP : http://www.multimania.com/fredp/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: advice needed for simple python web app
Paul Rubin http://[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you're just trying to get a conceptual understanding of web programming, I suggest you start with cgi. Next you might want to read Philip and Alex's Guide to Web Publishing: http://philip.greenspun.com/panda/ It's out of date and the examples use Tcl and Oracle instead of Python, but it's still a good explanation of how database-driven web sites work. The rest (like languages frameworks) is just a matter of picking some implementation parameters. This matches pretty much what I've decided to do. I'll start with cgi and CGIHTTPServer because I'll learn more from that and then move to a framework, quite likely CherryPy, although by that time I may change my choice. Philip Greenspun's book looks good and I'll have to go through it. Thanks for the advice. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: advice needed for simple python web app
Dan Perl [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This matches pretty much what I've decided to do. I'll start with cgi and CGIHTTPServer because I'll learn more from that and then move to a framework, quite likely CherryPy, although by that time I may change my choice. Philip Greenspun's book looks good and I'll have to go through it. Thanks for the advice. You might also look at the docs for HTML::Mason (www.masonhq.com) to get a look at a reasonably mature template system, even if you don't plan to use it (because it's in Perl and not Python). I'm not sure if CherryPy is directly comparable. I haven't yet used any of the Python template systems. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: advice needed for simple python web app
You might also want to try out Spyce. http://spyce.sourceforge.net/index.html It works in proxy mode, with mod_python, or even as cgi. Some examples: http://spyce.sourceforge.net/eg.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: advice needed for simple python web app
You might also look at the docs for HTML::Mason (www.masonhq.com) to get a look at a reasonably mature template system, even if you don't plan to use it (because it's in Perl and not Python). I'm not sure if CherryPy is directly comparable. I haven't yet used any of the Python template systems. Mason is available for python http://www.myghty.org/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: advice needed for simple python web app
At 8:51 AM -0800 2/4/05, Paul Rubin wrote: Dan Perl [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This matches pretty much what I've decided to do. I'll start with cgi and CGIHTTPServer because I'll learn more from that and then move to a framework, quite likely CherryPy, although by that time I may change my choice. Philip Greenspun's book looks good and I'll have to go through it. Thanks for the advice. You might also look at the docs for HTML::Mason (www.masonhq.com) to get a look at a reasonably mature template system, even if you don't plan to use it (because it's in Perl and not Python). There's a Python port of HTML::Mason called Myghty. A fairly new project. I've just played around with it a bit Well worth a look: http://www.myghty.org/ -- Raymond Cote Appropriate Solutions, Inc. PO Box 458 ~ Peterborough, NH 03458-0458 Phone: 603.924.6079 ~ Fax: 603.924.8668 rgacote(at)AppropriateSolutions.com www.AppropriateSolutions.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: advice needed for simple python web app
On 03 Feb 2005 22:31:43 -0800, rumours say that Paul Rubin http://[EMAIL PROTECTED] might have written: [Dan Perl thinks about publishing to the web a script that could be misused by spammers, so Paul advises him to watch out.] There used to be some similar perl scripts running all over the place until that happened. Those were pure perl scripts. This will be a Perl python script, so no problem. -- TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best. Be strict when sending and tolerant when receiving. (from RFC1958) I really should keep that in mind when talking with people, actually... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: advice needed for simple python web app
Paul Rubin http://[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Dan Perl [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Basically, what I'm looking for is a web server that accepts an HTTP request and invokes a python script. But I would like a pythonic solution so a web server like Apache is a solution that I would like to avoid. The server should also be as simple as possible to administrate. CGI and CGIHTTPServer (or whatever it's called) is conceptually the simplest. What does your app do? The application is just something I'm playing with to learn a little bit on web apps. It uses an HTML form to send an email. The form takes inputs like the From:, To: and Subject: fields and a text field. I found the Internet Protocols and Support chapter in the Library Reference that covers also the CGIHTTPServer. It's definitely something I will have to read. Thanks. Dan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: advice needed for simple python web app
M.E.Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I am no web expert but have recently used cherrypy to 'webify' a script. It is very easy to get going and has its own server or can be run behind Apache. The only real problem I see is that the docs are still a little lite for the new 2.0 series ,but they do have a newsgroup where the author still answers questions. Cherrypy2 is fairly logical and most of it is covered in the examples on there website. I can not speak for the other packages,have not used them yet ;) hth, M.E.Farmer Thanks. I am no web expert either so I appreciate advice coming from someone who was in a similar situation. Twisted and CherryPy seemed to me to be the main choices based on what I understand from their front pages with my limited knowledge on web apps. Twisted feels more developed but also more complex at the same time. I wanted opinions before I invest the time in studying either one of them. Your opinion helps. Dan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: advice needed for simple python web app
Dan Perl: The application is just something I'm playing with to learn a little bit on web apps. It uses an HTML form to send an email. The form takes inputs like the From:, To: and Subject: fields and a text field. It is difficult to beat CGI + CGIHTTPServer for conceptual simplificity and easy of use: however, Quixote comes close and it has a *much* better support for forms. Here is an example from the minidemo in the distribution, so you have an idea of how the code looks like: from quixote.publish import Publisher from quixote.directory import Directory class RootDirectory(Directory): _q_exports = ['', 'hello'] def _q_index(self): return '''html bodyWelcome to the Quixote demo. Here is a a href=hellolink/a. /body /html ''' def hello(self): return 'htmlbodyHello world!/body/html' def create_publisher(): return Publisher(RootDirectory(), display_exceptions='plain') if __name__ == '__main__': from quixote.server.simple_server import run print 'creating demo listening on http://localhost:8080/' run(create_publisher, host='localhost', port=8080) The exported methods of your directory class corresponds to Web pages; _q_index returns the main page, hello an hello word page. This works out of the box with no configuration at all, you don't need to create a cgi-bin directory, nothing. It is trivial to replace simple_server with a more serious server (twisted_server, scgi_server, etc. ) Notice: this example works in Quixote 2.0 which is currently in alpha. Don't let the alpha scares you: that means that the documentation is still a bit rough and few things are not fully settled down, but the framework is very much usable. Michele Simionato -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: advice needed for simple python web app
Dan Perl [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The application is just something I'm playing with to learn a little bit on web apps. It uses an HTML form to send an email. The form takes inputs like the From:, To: and Subject: fields and a text field. Be careful of exposing that script to the internet. Spammers will exploit it. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: advice needed for simple python web app
Paul Rubin http://[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Dan Perl [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The application is just something I'm playing with to learn a little bit on web apps. It uses an HTML form to send an email. The form takes inputs like the From:, To: and Subject: fields and a text field. Be careful of exposing that script to the internet. Spammers will exploit it. Do you mean publishing the script for other people to copy it or exposing the web app so that other people may access it? Don't worry anyway, I won't do either and I'm running 2 firewalls on my PC. It would be really naive to expose the web app, wouldn't it? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: advice needed for simple python web app
Michele Simionato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Dan Perl: The application is just something I'm playing with to learn a little bit on web apps. It uses an HTML form to send an email. The form takes inputs like the From:, To: and Subject: fields and a text field. It is difficult to beat CGI + CGIHTTPServer for conceptual simplificity and easy of use: however, Quixote comes close and it has a *much* better support for forms. So Quixote is another framework I will have to look into. Best of all, though, after adding Quixote to the list I decided I have enough words to do a search. There were a few interesting finds, but one single link that points to the best of them is: http://www.python.org/moin/WebProgrammingShootOut -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: advice needed for simple python web app
Dan Perl [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Be careful of exposing that script to the internet. Spammers will exploit it. Do you mean publishing the script for other people to copy it or exposing the web app so that other people may access it? I mean installing the script on a server where spammers can run it and stick you with the blame for people getting unwanted mail. There used to be some similar perl scripts running all over the place until that happened. Don't worry anyway, I won't do either and I'm running 2 firewalls on my PC. It would be really naive to expose the web app, wouldn't it? Well, you should have some kind of user authentication if you expose it, and you should read up a bit about security for web apps. Python is actually not such a great language for this, but you certainly get more readable code than you would with perl. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: advice needed for simple python web app
Brian Beck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] From my experience, this appears to be the order from low-level to high-level interfaces: 1. mod_python: As complex as you need it to be, since you can control anything about the request response process. But more up-front work and decisions to make than CherryPy. 2. mod_python with Vampire: Directs you toward a specific publishing framework that is similar to CherryPy. 3. CherryPy: Like Vampire but simpler and doesn't require mod_python. The simplest blend between low-level server interface and ease-of-publishing. 4. Twisted: Seems like this is a big package to work with, not sure how easy it makes publishing once you get started-- better that someone else comment on this. 5. Zope: The most complex solution, doesn't necessarily make the 'easy things easy.' But covers all fronts in terms of what a user would ever need. 6. Zope with Plone: Adds a ton of publishing functionality. Has many ways to extend, but none of them are fun. You'll have to learn such complex APIs that Python will rarely help you. This is exactly the kind of summary that I think should be in a WebProgrammingShootOut (see another one of my postings in this thread) but I failed to find such a summary. Thanks, Brian! Anyone can add to the list? BTW, there are other people who seem to have been also confused by the wide spectrum of choices for this problem: http://pyre.third-bit.com/hippoblog/archives/58.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: advice needed for simple python web app
Dan Perl [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is exactly the kind of summary that I think should be in a WebProgrammingShootOut (see another one of my postings in this thread) but I failed to find such a summary. Thanks, Brian! Anyone can add to the list? If you're just trying to get a conceptual understanding of web programming, I suggest you start with cgi. Next you might want to read Philip and Alex's Guide to Web Publishing: http://philip.greenspun.com/panda/ It's out of date and the examples use Tcl and Oracle instead of Python, but it's still a good explanation of how database-driven web sites work. The rest (like languages frameworks) is just a matter of picking some implementation parameters. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
