Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[William]

For wxFormbuilder, does it also support AUI (dockable windows,etc.)?

Thanks,
William

--- On Wed, 8/26/09, Robert Kern  wrote:

From: Robert Kern 
Subject: Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?
To: python-list@python.org
Date: Wednesday, August 26, 2009, 7:40 PM

On 2009-08-26 18:08 PM, sturlamolden wrote:
> On 26 Aug, 22:47, David C Ullrich  wrote:
> 
>>> Nothing, except lobbying for wxFormBuilder for anyone who still doesn't
>>> know of it. :)
>> 
>> That's great. But do you know of anything I can use as a
>> visual form design tool in wxPython?
> 
> Right... I don't know if you are trying to be funny, but as I said
> there is wxFormBuilder...
> 
> 3.0 generates XRC that you can use with wxPython.
> 3.1 beta generates wxPython classes you can subclass.
> 
> Honestly, it's the best GUI builder for wxPython I know of.

It's possible that he is not asking for a visual form designer tool *for* 
building a wxPython app, but one that can be used *inside* a wxPython app like 
an IDE or something similar.

-- Robert Kern

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
 that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
 an underlying truth."
  -- Umberto Eco

-- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



  -- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[erikj]

On Aug 27, 2:31 pm, Neuruss  wrote:
> On 26 ago, 05:29, erikj  wrote:
>
>
>
> > Hi,
>
> > You could have a look at Camelot, to see if it fits
> > your needs :http://www.conceptive.be/projects/camelot/
>
> > it was developed with cross platform business apps in
> > mind.  when developing Camelot, we tried to build it using
> > wxWidgets first (because of the licensing at that time),
> > but it turned out that developing with QT proved to be
> > much more straightforward.  QT is documented very well
> > and you seldom encounter 'strange' issues that cost hours
> > of time to pinpoint and fix.
>
> > the datagrid was developed to be able to handle millions
> > of database records without glitches and is flexible thanks
> > to QT's model-view-delegate framework.
>
> > we do print barcodes with this app (even directly to
> > zebra printers)
>
> > if you have questions regarding Camelot, please feel free
> > to post on our mailing list :http://groups.google.com/group/project-camelot
>
> > Regards,
>
> > Erik
>
> > On Aug 24, 2:08 pm, Gilles Ganault  wrote:
>
> > > Hello
>
> > >         I was wondering if some people in this ng use Python and someGUI
> > > toolkit (PyWin32, wxWidgets, QT, etc.) to build professional
> > > applications, and if yes, what it's like, the pros and cons, etc.
>
> > > I'm especially concerned about the lack of controls, the lack of
> > > updates (lots of controls in wxWidgets are 1.0 deadware), and problems
> > > linked to how to update users' PC remotely when I build a new version
> > > using eg. Py2exe.
>
> > > I need controls for business apps like access to databases, good data
> > > grid, printing reports (with or without barcodes), etc.
>
> > > Thank you.
>
> Looks interesting, but I wonder if I can use Camelot without its ORM.
> I feel that ORMs make easy things easier, but complex things much
> harder...
> Can I use it with plain old sql?
>
> Luis

Yes and no :)

It uses sqlalchemy as it's orm, which is quite flexible and allows the
use of
plain old sql, but you still have to map the result to objects for the
GUI to
to handle them.

You are right that the ORM makes easy things easier, eg. what we do a
lot is
to create our core model using the ORM, and then create the different
summaries
directly as views in the database (since these are usually very
complex
queries, and those tend to be easier to write/debug in plain old
sql).  Then
we use the ORM again to map those views back to objects and have them
visualized.

Cheers,

Erik
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[Vivian Wang]

On Aug 24, 8:08 pm, Gilles Ganault  wrote:
> Hello
>
>         I was wondering if some people in this ng use Python and some GUI
> toolkit (PyWin32, wxWidgets, QT, etc.) to build professional
> applications, and if yes, what it's like, the pros and cons, etc.
>
> I'm especially concerned about the lack of controls, the lack of
> updates (lots of controls in wxWidgets are 1.0 deadware), and problems
> linked to how to update users' PC remotely when I build a new version
> using eg. Py2exe.
>
> I need controls for business apps like access to databases, good data
> grid, printing reports (with or without barcodes), etc.
>
> Thank you.

On Aug 24, 8:08 pm, Gilles Ganault  wrote:
> Hello
>
> I was wondering if some people in this ng use Python and some

GUI
> toolkit (PyWin32, wxWidgets, QT, etc.) to build professional
> applications, and if yes, what it's like, the pros and cons, etc.
>
> I'm especially concerned about the lack of controls, the lack of
> updates (lots of controls in wxWidgets are 1.0 deadware), and problems
> linked to how to update users' PC remotely when I build a new version
> using eg. Py2exe.
>
> I need controls for business apps like access to databases, good data
> grid, printing reports (with or without barcodes), etc.
>
> Thank you.

You can try biform:
http://www.bilive.com/download/Setup_BiForm_V2.1_en.msi.zip

Demo:
http://www.bilive.com/demo/BiForm_EN_demo.htm

More demo:(Chinese version)
http://www.bilive.com/demo/

BiForm is a form designer,one designed form will deploy as a PFF file.
BiReader is a runtime PFF file process engine for end-users.
Setup file above include BiForm and BiReader.

Main features:
*Python as script language,base on QT GUI library
*Visible form designer
*Internal database access framework
*Auto connect database,auto create tables
*Supports SQLite/Mssql2000/Sybase ASE,not need write diffrent script
for diffrent database at most time
*Simple deploy,simple upgrade
*Different forms can share same tables, they will auto cooperation
with other forms at runtime.If you want to deploy a new function , not
need uninstall other forms,deploy the new PFF file is enough .


-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[Peter Decker]

On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 4:47 PM, David C Ullrich wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 22:22:20 -0700, sturlamolden wrote:
>
>> On 25 Aug, 05:56, Peter Decker  wrote:
>>
>>> I use the Dabo Class Designer to visually design my forms. So what's
>>> you're point?  :)
>>
>> Nothing, except lobbying for wxFormBuilder for anyone who still doesn't
>> know of it. :)
>
> That's great. But do you know of anything I can use as a
> visual form design tool in wxPython?

You mean you prefer the wxPython style of coding? No, I don't know
what's available. Once I discovered that Dabo is the smart way to get
all the benefits of wxPython without the ugly C++ style of coding, I
haven't used raw wxPython.

-- 

# p.d.
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[Neuruss]

On 26 ago, 05:29, erikj  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> You could have a look at Camelot, to see if it fits
> your needs :http://www.conceptive.be/projects/camelot/
>
> it was developed with cross platform business apps in
> mind.  when developing Camelot, we tried to build it using
> wxWidgets first (because of the licensing at that time),
> but it turned out that developing with QT proved to be
> much more straightforward.  QT is documented very well
> and you seldom encounter 'strange' issues that cost hours
> of time to pinpoint and fix.
>
> the datagrid was developed to be able to handle millions
> of database records without glitches and is flexible thanks
> to QT's model-view-delegate framework.
>
> we do print barcodes with this app (even directly to
> zebra printers)
>
> if you have questions regarding Camelot, please feel free
> to post on our mailing list :http://groups.google.com/group/project-camelot
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik
>
> On Aug 24, 2:08 pm, Gilles Ganault  wrote:
>
>
>
> > Hello
>
> >         I was wondering if some people in this ng use Python and someGUI
> > toolkit (PyWin32, wxWidgets, QT, etc.) to build professional
> > applications, and if yes, what it's like, the pros and cons, etc.
>
> > I'm especially concerned about the lack of controls, the lack of
> > updates (lots of controls in wxWidgets are 1.0 deadware), and problems
> > linked to how to update users' PC remotely when I build a new version
> > using eg. Py2exe.
>
> > I need controls for business apps like access to databases, good data
> > grid, printing reports (with or without barcodes), etc.
>
> > Thank you.

Looks interesting, but I wonder if I can use Camelot without its ORM.
I feel that ORMs make easy things easier, but complex things much
harder...
Can I use it with plain old sql?

Luis
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[Hendrik van Rooyen]

On Wednesday 26 August 2009 22:47:23 David C Ullrich wrote:

> That's great. But do you know of anything I can use as a
> visual form design tool in wxPython?

Boa Constructor

- Hendrik


-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[Stef Mientki]

Gilles Ganault wrote:

On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 13:24:39 +0200, Wolfgang Keller 
wrote:
  

The area of _desktop_ database application development indeed looks like a vast 
and very hostile desert in the Python landscape.

The only framework that seems to be worth trying is Dabo. Unfortunately there's 
little documentation, and that's mostly outdated.

There's also Kiwi, but that's even less well documented.

And GNU Enterprise essentially seems to be dead.



Combined with the comment above about issues with printing, it looks
like Python for GUI apps isn't a very good idea :-/

I'd be interested in checking out commercial applications written in
Python for the Windows OS, if there are any.
  

I've been grown up with (and still using) Delphi,
known as having thé best GUI-builder.
I now use wxPython (with GUI-support),
with more comfort and more easy than Delphi !

cheers,
Stef


Thank you.
  


--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[Robert Kern]

On 2009-08-26 18:08 PM, sturlamolden wrote:

On 26 Aug, 22:47, David C Ullrich  wrote:


Nothing, except lobbying for wxFormBuilder for anyone who still doesn't
know of it. :)


That's great. But do you know of anything I can use as a
visual form design tool in wxPython?


Right... I don't know if you are trying to be funny, but as I said
there is wxFormBuilder...

3.0 generates XRC that you can use with wxPython.
3.1 beta generates wxPython classes you can subclass.

Honestly, it's the best GUI builder for wxPython I know of.


It's possible that he is not asking for a visual form designer tool *for* 
building a wxPython app, but one that can be used *inside* a wxPython app like 
an IDE or something similar.


--
Robert Kern

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
 that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
 an underlying truth."
  -- Umberto Eco

--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[Che M]

On Aug 26, 4:47 pm, David C Ullrich  wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 22:22:20 -0700, sturlamolden wrote:
> > On 25 Aug, 05:56, Peter Decker  wrote:
>
> >> I use the Dabo Class Designer to visually design my forms. So what's
> >> you're point?  :)
>
> > Nothing, except lobbying for wxFormBuilder for anyone who still doesn't
> > know of it. :)
>
> That's great. But do you know of anything I can use as a
> visual form design tool in wxPython?

If in your mind GUI-builder = form builder (or close enough)
there's Boa Constructor (my choice) and wxGlade.
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[Che M]

> Combined with the comment above about issues with printing, it looks
> like Python for GUI apps isn't a very good idea :-/

I don't have that feeling at all.  I don't have that much of a basis
of comparison, but my experience with wxPython for making GUI apps
has been pretty good.

Does anyone know of a wxPython "gallery" of apps using it?  That'd
be the quickest way to prove its usefulness.

Che

-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[sturlamolden]

On 26 Aug, 22:47, David C Ullrich  wrote:

> > Nothing, except lobbying for wxFormBuilder for anyone who still doesn't
> > know of it. :)
>
> That's great. But do you know of anything I can use as a
> visual form design tool in wxPython?

Right... I don't know if you are trying to be funny, but as I said
there is wxFormBuilder...

3.0 generates XRC that you can use with wxPython.
3.1 beta generates wxPython classes you can subclass.

Honestly, it's the best GUI builder for wxPython I know of.
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[Stef Mientki]

David C Ullrich wrote:

On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 22:22:20 -0700, sturlamolden wrote:

  

On 25 Aug, 05:56, Peter Decker  wrote:



I use the Dabo Class Designer to visually design my forms. So what's
you're point?  :)
  

Nothing, except lobbying for wxFormBuilder for anyone who still doesn't
know of it. :)



That's great. But do you know of anything I can use as a
visual form design tool in wxPython?

  

Not a real form designer, but very convenient is XRC or GUI-support
http://mientki.ruhosting.nl/data_www/pylab_works/pw_gui_support.html

cheers,
Stef
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[David C Ullrich]

On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 22:22:20 -0700, sturlamolden wrote:

> On 25 Aug, 05:56, Peter Decker  wrote:
> 
>> I use the Dabo Class Designer to visually design my forms. So what's
>> you're point?  :)
> 
> Nothing, except lobbying for wxFormBuilder for anyone who still doesn't
> know of it. :)

That's great. But do you know of anything I can use as a
visual form design tool in wxPython?

-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[erikj]

Hi,

You could have a look at Camelot, to see if it fits
your needs : http://www.conceptive.be/projects/camelot/

it was developed with cross platform business apps in
mind.  when developing Camelot, we tried to build it using
wxWidgets first (because of the licensing at that time),
but it turned out that developing with QT proved to be
much more straightforward.  QT is documented very well
and you seldom encounter 'strange' issues that cost hours
of time to pinpoint and fix.

the datagrid was developed to be able to handle millions
of database records without glitches and is flexible thanks
to QT's model-view-delegate framework.

we do print barcodes with this app (even directly to
zebra printers)

if you have questions regarding Camelot, please feel free
to post on our mailing list : http://groups.google.com/group/project-camelot

Regards,

Erik

On Aug 24, 2:08 pm, Gilles Ganault  wrote:
> Hello
>
>         I was wondering if some people in this ng use Python and some GUI
> toolkit (PyWin32, wxWidgets, QT, etc.) to build professional
> applications, and if yes, what it's like, the pros and cons, etc.
>
> I'm especially concerned about the lack of controls, the lack of
> updates (lots of controls in wxWidgets are 1.0 deadware), and problems
> linked to how to update users' PC remotely when I build a new version
> using eg. Py2exe.
>
> I need controls for business apps like access to databases, good data
> grid, printing reports (with or without barcodes), etc.
>
> Thank you.

-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[Simon Brunning]

2009/8/26 geekworking :
> If you are planning a database driven app, you should first settle on
> a DB server. Any real enterprise DB system will put all of the
> business logic in the database server. The choice of a front end
> should be secondary.

The trend for some years now has been to get behavior out of the
database and into the application, where it belongs. True, we tend to
keep the presentation tier separate too, but we really don't "put all
of the business logic in the database server".

Going back to the OP's question, it would be worth taking a look at
what the resolver boys are up to: .

-- 
Cheers,
Simon B.
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[geekworking]

If you are planning a database driven app, you should first settle on
a DB server. Any real enterprise DB system will put all of the
business logic in the database server. The choice of a front end
should be secondary.


Wikipedia's list of Python apps:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Python_software
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[Peter Decker]

On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 7:24 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:

> The only framework that seems to be worth trying is Dabo. Unfortunately 
> there's little documentation, and that's mostly outdated.

To be honest, that was my biggest concern when I tried Dabo. However,
after as small a learning curve as one could expect for any
non-trivial tool, it seemed that if I wasn't sure what a particular
way to do something was, the most obvious guess was almost always
correct. Contrast that with developing in wxPython, which has quite a
bit of documentation, which I constantly had to refer to, because the
confusing and inconsistent design.

There is a step by step guide on Google docs written by one of the
authors that is a very helpful approach to using Dabo. The authors are
also very active on the dabo-users list, and any questions are quickly
answered.

So I guess if you need a desktop framework in Python, I would strongly
urge you to check out Dabo and not let the volume of documentation
scare you off.

-- 

# p.d.
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[sturlamolden]

On 25 Aug, 13:24, Wolfgang Keller  wrote:

> The area of _desktop_ database application development indeed looks like a 
> vast and very hostile desert in the Python landscape.

Yes, you don't have drag-and-drop database tools like MS Access or
FoxPro. You actually have to use a database API (such as pyodbc or
pymssql) with GUI (tkinter, wxPython, PyGTK, PyQt, MFC) manually. If
you need a framework for this, you should not be developing software
anyway.

-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[sturlamolden]

On 25 Aug, 20:30, Gilles Ganault  wrote:

> Combined with the comment above about issues with printing, it looks
> like Python for GUI apps isn't a very good idea :-/

With pywin32, printing is the same as for any other Windows app (you
get MFC for Python).

-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[David Boddie]

On Tuesday 25 August 2009 13:24, Wolfgang Keller wrote:

> The area of _desktop_ database application development indeed looks like a
> vast and very hostile desert in the Python landscape.
> 
> The only framework that seems to be worth trying is Dabo. Unfortunately
> there's little documentation, and that's mostly outdated.
> 
> There's also Kiwi, but that's even less well documented.
> 
> And GNU Enterprise essentially seems to be dead.

There's also Camelot, if that's the kind of thing you're after:

  http://www.conceptive.be/projects/camelot

David
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[Gilles Ganault]

On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 13:24:39 +0200, Wolfgang Keller 
wrote:
>The area of _desktop_ database application development indeed looks like a 
>vast and very hostile desert in the Python landscape.
>
>The only framework that seems to be worth trying is Dabo. Unfortunately 
>there's little documentation, and that's mostly outdated.
>
>There's also Kiwi, but that's even less well documented.
>
>And GNU Enterprise essentially seems to be dead.

Combined with the comment above about issues with printing, it looks
like Python for GUI apps isn't a very good idea :-/

I'd be interested in checking out commercial applications written in
Python for the Windows OS, if there are any.

Thank you.
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[Wolfgang Keller]

> I need controls for business apps like access to databases, good data
> grid, printing reports (with or without barcodes), etc.

The area of _desktop_ database application development indeed looks like a vast 
and very hostile desert in the Python landscape.

The only framework that seems to be worth trying is Dabo. Unfortunately there's 
little documentation, and that's mostly outdated.

There's also Kiwi, but that's even less well documented.

And GNU Enterprise essentially seems to be dead.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

-- 
NO "Courtesy Copies" PLEASE!
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[sturlamolden]

On 25 Aug, 05:56, Peter Decker  wrote:

> I use the Dabo Class Designer to visually design my forms. So what's
> you're point?  :)

Nothing, except lobbying for wxFormBuilder for anyone who still
doesn't know of it. :)

-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[Peter Decker]

On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 10:26 PM, sturlamolden wrote:
> On 25 Aug, 03:51, Peter Decker  wrote:
>
>> I've used in fairly regularly for about 2 years now. I haven't had to
>> write that ugly wxPython code for so long that every time I see
>> examples on their mail list I wanna barf.
>
> I prefer wxFormBuilder. GUIs should be designed visually whenever
> possible.

I use the Dabo Class Designer to visually design my forms. So what's
you're point?  :)

-- 

# p.d.
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[Che M]

> I'm especially concerned about the lack of controls, the lack of
> updates (lots of controls in wxWidgets are 1.0 deadware),

I use wxPython.  No lack of controls there, and most are up to
date.  Which "lots" in wxWidgets are you thinking of?

> I need controls for business apps like access to databases, good data
> grid,

Should be fine with wxPython.

> printing reports (with or without barcodes), etc.

Maybe ReportManager? (haven't used) or other options.

-cm
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[Steve]

You can also use Windows Forms with IronPython

http://www.ironpython.info/index.php/Contents#Windows_Forms
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[sturlamolden]

On 25 Aug, 03:51, Peter Decker  wrote:

> I've used in fairly regularly for about 2 years now. I haven't had to
> write that ugly wxPython code for so long that every time I see
> examples on their mail list I wanna barf.

I prefer wxFormBuilder. GUIs should be designed visually whenever
possible.




-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[Peter Decker]

On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Stephen Hansen wrote:

> P.S. I have no idea why I'm pumping Dabo so much in this though I've never
> used it!

I've used in fairly regularly for about 2 years now. I haven't had to
write that ugly wxPython code for so long that every time I see
examples on their mail list I wanna barf.

Dabo is powerful, Pythonic, and strongly supported by its developers.
Check it out at http://dabodev.com

-- 

# p.d.
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[rurpy]

On 08/24/2009 06:08 AM, Gilles Ganault wrote:
>   I was wondering if some people in this ng use Python and some GUI
> toolkit (PyWin32, wxWidgets, QT, etc.) to build professional
> applications, and if yes, what it's like, the pros and cons, etc.
>
> I'm especially concerned about the lack of controls, the lack of
> updates (lots of controls in wxWidgets are 1.0 deadware), and problems
> linked to how to update users' PC remotely when I build a new version
> using eg. Py2exe.
>
> I need controls for business apps like access to databases, good data
> grid, printing reports (with or without barcodes), etc.

I sure you'll get plenty of GUI-x is really great and you'll
is just as good as anything commercial out there, so I thought
a minority opinion, even if unpopular, might be useful.

Won't comment on the control choices or packaging issues, but I
am at the moment doing a little database-connected app that
presents editable data in a spreadsheet like (grid) form using
wxPython.

It has been a very painful process.  I have not found any simple
pre-written code to connect a wxPython grid to a database so
that the result is something like a Microsoft Access datasheet.[*1]
It is probably taking me 10 times as long to develop this app
in WxPython/Postgresql as it did to develop something similar
in MS Access/VBA/SQL Server.

I haven't needed for printing yet, but I've read wxpython maillist
posts about the difficultly of getting printing to work so you may
want to check that out as well before commiting to wxpython.

A meta-issue that applies (I think) to both wxPython and PyQt
is that both projects seem to be highly dependent on a single
person leading one to worry about the "bus" scenario.

I am not a fan of Microsoft (in fact I despise their commercial
behavior and many aspects of thier products) but I am reporting
the reality as I've experienced it.

[*1] There are ORMs like Sqlalchemy but they introduce a additional
problems like inefficient database operations, dependency on a
large external package, etc.  It is hard to tell for sure since
the Sqlalchemy docs are lousy, which of course means even more
development time.
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[Stephen Hansen]

>
>I was wondering if some people in this ng use Python and some GUI
> toolkit (PyWin32, wxWidgets, QT, etc.) to build professional
> applications, and if yes, what it's like, the pros and cons, etc.


My company does. A few years ago we decided to re-write our entire aging
product line in Python using wxPython as the GUI layer (PyWin32 was out
because we wanted Mac compatibility, and at that time between QT's
commercial license and my own familiarity with wx meant we just used that by
default.)

It took some time to get solid; there's a learning curve involved in doing
things "the pythonic way", and wxPython is -- not really pythonic(and no
powerful GUI library is, though there are some simpler libraries out there
which are), so you're learning in two directions at once.

It's been a pretty interesting experience, and I'd consider it a complete
success, honestly. It took some time to get the full suite going from
"functional" to "mature", mostly because of certain complexities to our
system which have nothing to do with Python. But, Python and wxPython as the
foundation for the system has allowed some pretty remarkable flexibility in
getting something usable to the customer quickly, getting early feedback and
rapidly responding to their needs and growing the application as we did so.

It's been a very iterative process, but I don't know if you want to create a
long-term project or get something out that works Just Fine, Right Now. For
us we started out with a basic re-implementation of the legacy system which
just 'worked', and have over the last few years probably rewritten most of
the original code at least twice (a piece at a time)-- re-factoring and
redesigning both the insides and UI as new controls and technologies (and
our own knowledge!) improve over time. For us that's good, because we like
maintenance contracts :)

But we've had a continually evolving product line-- getting faster with
every new release, slicker, with new features and evolving continually.
Sure, every program /should/ do that -- but using Python+wxPython IMHO has
been invaluable to the process of evolving /efficiently/. It takes very
little effort to /maintain/ the system, very little effort going back to
some deep dark place in the codebase and figuring out what the heck was done
by someone else three years ago... and very little effort to pull the whole
thing apart and piece it back together with a new heart when it's discovered
the original didn't quite do things as well as it should.

I'm especially concerned about the lack of controls, the lack of
> updates (lots of controls in wxWidgets are 1.0 deadware),


I find this comment -- frankly bizarre.

There's a plethora if controls in wxWidgets, and it's not terribly hard once
you learn the system how to make your own. Check out Andrea Gavana's
excellent suite of custom widgets (which continually get migrated into the
core wxPython) and the AUI, and the sublime ObjectListView for Python.

Now, if you're talking about "lack of the latest Microsoft-specialized
controls", that's true. wxWidgets is cross-platform so doesn't readily adopt
the latest and newest way that Microsoft does things with each new iteration
of Office and Windows pumping out a new UI paradigm. But you can still
create very native and impressively functional looking apps.

With wxWidgets at least (I have no idea about QT), you also don't have a
series of data-aware controls that you may be used to, but it's *really* not
that hard to write that layer yourself.

You may also want to look into Dabo, which builds on top of wxPython and I
believe solves some of its limitations with regards to data-integration if
you do things in a way that are Dabo-esque. I'm only vaguely familiar with
it, though.

Depending on your needs, you can use various dialog builders to create
XRC/XML "descriptions" of your interface and load them up-- but personally I
hand-code all the controls and interfaces, and doing so once you learn the
system is really quite rapid. I can dummy up a very functional interface for
testing/dummying much faster in Python/wxPython then I can in Visual Studio.
It doesn't have as many bells and whistles, but I really can't imagine why
anyone would find themselves control-starved.


> and problems
> linked to how to update users' PC remotely when I build a new version
> using eg. Py2exe.
>

What problems? Yes, you have to learn py2exe, but once you have your program
packaged together, it's no different then any other program on windows.
Build a MSI, and have the IT guy push that MSI out via an active directory
group policy. Isn't that the standard way you install and update /any/ group
of users' software on a windows network? Regardless of in what language you
write it in?

I need controls for business apps like access to databases, good data
> grid, printing reports (with or without barcodes), etc.


Data access is easy and well supported to a wide-variety of databases,
depending on just how you want

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[sturlamolden]

On 24 Aug, 14:08, Gilles Ganault  wrote:

> and problems
> linked to how to update users' PC remotely when I build a new version
> using eg. Py2exe.

Remote update is a problem regardless of language. It typically
involves the following steps:

1. Download the update from a server using a background thread.

2. When the program starts, look for downloaded updates. Install
updates, then launch the Python app.

The problem is that a program's DLLs etc. become write-protected when
the program runs. So you nees two programs that cooperate to install
updates. But regardless of language you will run into this problem -
it is not Python specific. With py2exe, you can solve this using two
executables. The first py2exe launch a script that installs updates,
then spawns the second py2exe executable. The second py2exe lauch a
script that installs updates in the first, then launch the Python app.
The Python app then run a background thread that downloads new
updates.


Sturla Molden
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[sturlamolden]

On 24 Aug, 14:08, Gilles Ganault  wrote:

> I'm especially concerned about the lack of controls, the lack of
> updates (lots of controls in wxWidgets are 1.0 deadware), and problems
> linked to how to update users' PC remotely when I build a new version
> using eg. Py2exe.

There is pywin32 if you like to work with MFC and ActiveX. Apart from
that, lack of controls is not what I associate with GTK, Qt or
wxWidgets.


> I need controls for business apps like access to databases, good data
> grid, printing reports (with or without barcodes), etc.

Why do you want GUI controls for this? If you think you do, Visual
Basic has crippled your mind.

Python has packages for database connectivity. There is ReportLab for
reports, matplotlib for graphs, pyagg or pycairo for whatever you want
to draw, etc. You can find Python packages for anything you can
imagine.



Sturla

-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Python for professsional Windows GUI apps?

[Gilles Ganault]

Hello

I was wondering if some people in this ng use Python and some GUI
toolkit (PyWin32, wxWidgets, QT, etc.) to build professional
applications, and if yes, what it's like, the pros and cons, etc.

I'm especially concerned about the lack of controls, the lack of
updates (lots of controls in wxWidgets are 1.0 deadware), and problems
linked to how to update users' PC remotely when I build a new version
using eg. Py2exe.

I need controls for business apps like access to databases, good data
grid, printing reports (with or without barcodes), etc.

Thank you.
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list