Re: Python list code of conduct
On 7/2/2013 7:46 PM, Roy Smith wrote: In article mailman.4125.1372798337.3114.python-l...@python.org, Ned Deily n...@acm.org wrote: If you find a bug in Python, don't send it to comp.lang.python; file a bug report in the issue tracker. I would revise this to If you are have really found a bug in Python... How does a newbie know? I'm not sure I agree with that one, at least not fully. It's certainly true that you shouldn't expect anybody to do anything about a bug unless you open an issue. On the other hand, I often find it useful to discuss things that I believe are bugs on c.l.p first. Sometimes people will explain to me that I'm just doing it wrong. Sometimes the discussion will end up with, Yeah, that's a bug. usually followed by File a tracker issue or I opened an tracker issue for this. (I have done that several times, though I sometimes prefer a person learn how to do it themselves.) In either case, it serves as a good initial filter for whether I should file a bug or not, and the discussion is often educational. Ask here first. With a subject line that says 'I think ...' or Problem with ...' Advantages: 1. At least half the bugs newbies report are not. The tracker does not need the extra clutter. 2. Filing a tracker issue sometimes creates a 'mental investment' in the mis-perception, which leads to resentment upon explanation. 3. There are lots of people here ready to help and answer questions. Any sensible question usually gets multiple responses, usually within a few hours or a day. (Invalid tracker reports may sit for days and get one short response.) 4. Explanations posted here benefit lots of people, rather than just 1. 5. A question posted here may elicit essential information, like which systems or which versions have the problem. 6. If you make an informed post to the tracker backed up by at least opinion, at least one tracker responder be in a better mode when responding. -- Terry Jan Reedy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python list code of conduct
On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 08:39:59 +1000, Ben Finney wrote: Steve Simmons square.st...@gmail.com writes: Does this list have a code of conduct or a netiqeutte (sp?) statement/requirement? This forum (both a Usenet newsgroup and a mailing list) is part of the Python community. So the “Python Community Code of Conduct” applies. URL:http://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ It certainly does not apply. Even putting aside the practical impossibility of enforcing it on an unmoderated mailing list/news group, the Code of Conduct needs to be adopted by each community group that chooses to do so. The Python Software Foundation (PSF) has approved the CoC, but it is only *suggested* that Python-related communities adopt it, it is not mandatory. Nor could it be mandatory -- the PSF has no power to tell arbitrary Python groups how to run their community. (Although in principle it could choose to withhold funding from those that do not.) The PSF blog post introducing this makes it clear that the PSF *encourages* community groups to adopt this CoC, but that is all: [quote] The PSF supports and advocates for the use of the CoC throughout the community, but without adoption by specific areas, the CoC is merely a document that the Foundation is supportive of. The way it’s useful is that an area of the community can adopt the CoC and use it as a guideline for participation. IT COULD BE adopted by mailing lists, IRC channels, the bug tracker, user groups, sprints, and more. For example, a mailing list COULD SAY that their membership should adhere to the CoC. [emphasis added] [end quote] http://pyfound.blogspot.com.au/2013/06/announcing-code-of-conduct-for-use-by.html To my knowledge, only two groups have adopted this so far: the PSF itself have adopted it for their internal (and private) mailing lists), and the python-ideas mailing list, whose two moderators adopted it without consultation with the mailing list subscribers, not that I'm bitter or anything. That was formed by the Python community and adopted by our gracious hosts, the Python Software Foundation, who provide this forum for our use. The Code of Conduct was not formed by the Python community. It was formed by a small but influential subset of the Python community, the PSF. The greater Python community includes large numbers of people who are not members of the PSF, are not on this mailing list, and indeed may not be on any mailing list at all. It is absurd to think that the PSF can unilaterally decide how (say) StackOverflow users are allowed to behave when they ask Python questions. Now, if we were talking about the Python Secret Underground, which emphatically does not exist, then -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct]
On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 10:52 AM, Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote: A popular language like Python has been around for about 20 years. It is in daily use by tens of thousands of people around the world. What are the chances that you, in your first week of using Python, just happened to stumble across a bug that *nobody else in the world* has noticed? Of course, it's possible for there to be dark corners. But if you're working with those, you know it full well. The dark corners of Python might be in some of its more obscure modules, or maybe in IPv6 handling, or perhaps some weird platform that misbehaves, but they're definitely not in lists and tuples treated normally. ChrisA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python list code of conduct
Dennis Lee Bieber: So who would enforce any rules? I doubt it could be ported to a new (if approval could even be obtained) comp.lang.python.mod(erated) so nothing can be enforced on the comp.lang.python side; and what would you do with Google Groups? The current news group charter doesn't really have any rules. While it may be possible to recharter an existing news group, it would likely be simpler to just create a new one. CHARTER Comp.lang.python is an unmoderated newsgroup which will serve as a forum for discussing the Python computer language. The group will serve both those who just program in Python and those who work on developing the language. Topics that may be discussed include: - announcements of new versions of the language and applications written in Python. - discussion on the internals of the Python language. - general information about the language. - discussion on programming in Python. http://www.python.org/search/hypermail/python-1994q1/0377.html Neil -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python list code of conduct
On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 6:09:35 AM UTC+5:30, Ben Finney wrote: Dennis Lee Bieber writes: So who would enforce any rules? Ideally, this community is healthy enough for us to enforce the code of conduct of our host, through social convention among us all. Thanks Ben for that. Lets not stymie Steve Simmons original suggestion for a CoC by making it into a formal CoC and then saying its impossible. There is a good deal of informal enforcement already. Consider eg: - Mark's footnote reminding about GG problems and their solutions link - Steven's brusque 'cut-the-crap' type responses - Your own prompt STOPs to racist/sexist etc posts etc So we may take and welcome Steve Simmons' call to expand that list. I certainly welcome the suggestion. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct]
In article mailman.4153.1372838561.3114.python-l...@python.org, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: Of course, it's possible for there to be dark corners. But if you're working with those, you know it full well. The dark corners of Python might be in some of its more obscure modules, or maybe in IPv6 handling, The sad thing about this statement is that IPv6 has been around for about as long as Python. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python list code of conduct
In article mailman.4148.1372832343.3114.python-l...@python.org, Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote: 6. If you make an informed post to the tracker backed up by at least opinion, at least one tracker responder be in a better mode when responding. What I generally do is summarize the problem in the tracker, but also include a link to the google groups archive of the mailing list thread. Then, if anybody wants to see the whole background discussion, it's easy to find. The most common outcome, for me at least, is that I end up opening a bug against the docs, because they didn't do a good job of explaining how something is supposed to work. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python list code of conduct
On 03/07/2013 12:50, rusi wrote: On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 6:09:35 AM UTC+5:30, Ben Finney wrote: Dennis Lee Bieber writes: So who would enforce any rules? Ideally, this community is healthy enough for us to enforce the code of conduct of our host, through social convention among us all. Thanks Ben for that. Lets not stymie Steve Simmons original suggestion for a CoC by making it into a formal CoC and then saying its impossible. There is a good deal of informal enforcement already. Consider eg: - Mark's footnote reminding about GG problems and their solutions link - Steven's brusque 'cut-the-crap' type responses - Your own prompt STOPs to racist/sexist etc posts etc So we may take and welcome Steve Simmons' call to expand that list. I certainly welcome the suggestion. Thanks Rusi - and everyone else that provided feedback. I understand (and had already anticipated) that this type of group can't and probably shouldn't be moderated in the more draconian sense of the word but there's no reason why we couldn't create some behavioural and technical guidelines. I had it in mind to move to a few (?!) paragraphs that read well when considered as a single document but that were also suitable to cut'n'paste into a response - much as Mark puts his GG warning in every mail. The aim would be to put a considered response in a first reply that tells the OP 'this is what you need to do to get a sensible answer'. We have this for GG code fragments and I see no reason why we can't have it for bad language; bad attitude; unreasonable expectations; thread high-jacking; top posting; and all the other sins we expect Noobs (and some long standing members!) to avoid. I guess I should have said this up front but let me say it now: I completely 'get' that this won't fix the Trolls or the dyed-in-the-wool pedants or recidivist high-jackers but it may put some buffering between: Newb: I want you to do my homework and I have to give it in tomorrow morning and Pythonista: you're a dick If there's enough support for the general idea, I'm happy to make a decent sized contribution but if there isn't - Nuff said. Steve -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct]
On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 12:03 AM, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote: In article mailman.4153.1372838561.3114.python-l...@python.org, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: Of course, it's possible for there to be dark corners. But if you're working with those, you know it full well. The dark corners of Python might be in some of its more obscure modules, or maybe in IPv6 handling, The sad thing about this statement is that IPv6 has been around for about as long as Python. Yeah, and yet so many ISPs simply don't support it (only one of the Australian ISPs I've worked with does - Internode). So heaps of code just doesn't get tested in an IPv6 environment. I don't know whether there's anything in Python that would fail in that way, but there might be; if someone starts writing a DNS server in Python and runs into difficulties with records, then it actually might be a library bug. But the concept still applies: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.[1] Before ranting loudly about how Python is buggy, make absolutely sure you're right, and show the evidence. ChrisA [1] http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#idp5249360 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct]
In article mailman.4170.1372860945.3114.python-l...@python.org, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 12:03 AM, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote: In article mailman.4153.1372838561.3114.python-l...@python.org, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: Of course, it's possible for there to be dark corners. But if you're working with those, you know it full well. The dark corners of Python might be in some of its more obscure modules, or maybe in IPv6 handling, The sad thing about this statement is that IPv6 has been around for about as long as Python. Yeah, and yet so many ISPs simply don't support it (only one of the Australian ISPs I've worked with does - Internode). My comment was not meant as a flame against Python, but as a flame against the whole frigging Internet industry for dragging their feet(*) on IPv6 rollout. (*) It is difficult to walk with any gait other than foot-dragging when you are suffering from a severe case of cranio-rectal inversion. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct]
On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 12:23 AM, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote: In article mailman.4170.1372860945.3114.python-l...@python.org, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 12:03 AM, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote: In article mailman.4153.1372838561.3114.python-l...@python.org, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: Of course, it's possible for there to be dark corners. But if you're working with those, you know it full well. The dark corners of Python might be in some of its more obscure modules, or maybe in IPv6 handling, The sad thing about this statement is that IPv6 has been around for about as long as Python. Yeah, and yet so many ISPs simply don't support it (only one of the Australian ISPs I've worked with does - Internode). My comment was not meant as a flame against Python, but as a flame against the whole frigging Internet industry for dragging their feet(*) on IPv6 rollout. (*) It is difficult to walk with any gait other than foot-dragging when you are suffering from a severe case of cranio-rectal inversion. Right. My examples of dark corners were non-specific too; I haven't actually found any such corners in Python as I don't use it enough. It's high time the world moved to IPv6 wholesale. Start leaning on your ISPs to offer /64s (or /56s as Internode give) to all their customers. Sooner or later they'll have to make it a priority. IPv4 depletion was back in early 2011 - that's two years since IANA gave out the last blocks to the RIRs. Surely that means something? At work, we took a stand on this, for what it's worth. We rent dedicated servers from a number of hosting companies (giving us geographically and topologically separate servers), and will not work with anyone who doesn't give IPv6 as well as IPv4 addressing. But since we currently put less than $100/month into servers, that's not much of a stand :) ChrisA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python list code of conduct
On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 10:10:17 -0400, Roy Smith wrote: In article mailman.4148.1372832343.3114.python-l...@python.org, Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote: 6. If you make an informed post to the tracker backed up by at least opinion, at least one tracker responder be in a better mode when responding. What I generally do is summarize the problem in the tracker, but also include a link to the google groups archive of the mailing list thread. ^^ Please don't. Link to the actual mailing list thread instead: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list This is the canonical archive for the list, and doesn't involve the atrocious Google Groups interface. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct]
On 2013-07-03, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote: In article mailman.4153.1372838561.3114.python-l...@python.org, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: Of course, it's possible for there to be dark corners. But if you're working with those, you know it full well. The dark corners of Python might be in some of its more obscure modules, or maybe in IPv6 handling, The sad thing about this statement is that IPv6 has been around for about as long as Python. I've recently added IPv6 support to some embedded firmware. We had to add it because various purchasing people (mostly government) have non-negotiable feature checklists and IPv6 support is starting to show up on the checklists. However, so far, none of the people requiring IPv6 support actually have any plans to use IPv6 -- ever. I'm convinced we could put IPv6 support on the data sheets and continue shipping IPv4-only stuff for many years to come, and all our customers would be perfectly happy. -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! My NOSE is NUMB! at gmail.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct]
In article kr20h3$omo$1...@reader2.panix.com, Grant Edwards invalid@invalid.invalid wrote: On 2013-07-03, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote: In article mailman.4153.1372838561.3114.python-l...@python.org, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: Of course, it's possible for there to be dark corners. But if you're working with those, you know it full well. The dark corners of Python might be in some of its more obscure modules, or maybe in IPv6 handling, The sad thing about this statement is that IPv6 has been around for about as long as Python. I've recently added IPv6 support to some embedded firmware. We had to add it because various purchasing people (mostly government) have non-negotiable feature checklists and IPv6 support is starting to show up on the checklists. Yup. I did one of those.Hmmm, just found the powerpoint deck dated March 2006, so we probably started the project around September 2005. Same deal, we couldn't sell into government accounts unless we had IPv6. Have they actually used it? I doubt it. The really annoying thing about the project was I never got around to implementing rfc1924. However, so far, none of the people requiring IPv6 support actually have any plans to use IPv6 -- ever. What's known in the industry as shelfware. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct]
On 2013-07-03, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote: In article kr20h3$omo$1...@reader2.panix.com, Grant Edwards invalid@invalid.invalid wrote: On 2013-07-03, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote: In article mailman.4153.1372838561.3114.python-l...@python.org, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: Of course, it's possible for there to be dark corners. But if you're working with those, you know it full well. The dark corners of Python might be in some of its more obscure modules, or maybe in IPv6 handling, The sad thing about this statement is that IPv6 has been around for about as long as Python. I've recently added IPv6 support to some embedded firmware. We had to add it because various purchasing people (mostly government) have non-negotiable feature checklists and IPv6 support is starting to show up on the checklists. Yup. I did one of those.Hmmm, just found the powerpoint deck dated March 2006, so we probably started the project around September 2005. Same deal, we couldn't sell into government accounts unless we had IPv6. Have they actually used it? I doubt it. The really annoying thing about the project was I never got around to implementing rfc1924. Thankfully, the network library for our RTOS had support functions to handle rfc1924. Otherwise I would have had to do it myself because there's no way I could have made it through the project having to read and type full-length IPv6 addresses the whole time. However, so far, none of the people requiring IPv6 support actually have any plans to use IPv6 -- ever. What's known in the industry as shelfware. Yep. 99.9% of the time, our products are used on small, isolated industrial networks that have little or no internet connectivity. The product line started out when a lot of customers weren't even using IPv4 yet. We still have customers who use our products with all IP support disabled (though these days it's always on networks that have other IP traffic). -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! On the road, ZIPPY at is a pinhead without a gmail.compurpose, but never without a POINT. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Python list code of conduct
Erm, It probably isn't the best time to start this post but I was wondering... Does this list have a code of conduct or a netiqeutte (sp?) statement/requirement? If not, should it? Is the membership of this list presently in the right frame of mind to create one or update any existing one? The reason I ask is that it seems to me that if we (the current membership of the list) could agree to a set of preferred/required behaviours we would at least have a framework by which to measure unwelcome posts. And, more importantly, to guide newcomers in understanding that we are enthusiasts who choose to discuss Python and *voluntarily* help solve problems with Python for the less experienced members. [Runs for cover] Steve Simmons Sent from a Galaxy far far away-- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python list code of conduct
On 2 July 2013 16:51, Steve Simmons square.st...@gmail.com wrote: Erm, It probably isn't the best time to start this post but I was wondering... Does this list have a code of conduct or a netiqeutte (sp?) statement/requirement? If not, should it? Is the membership of this list presently in the right frame of mind to create one or update any existing one? The reason I ask is that it seems to me that if we (the current membership of the list) could agree to a set of preferred/required behaviours we would at least have a framework by which to measure unwelcome posts. And, more importantly, to guide newcomers in understanding that we are enthusiasts who choose to discuss Python and *voluntarily* help solve problems with Python for the less experienced members. I don't know if we do and I'll support such measures (pending that they're done intelligently) but unfortunately there seem to be at least two problems with your plan. - There seems to be no authority for upholding such rules - Newbies never read around That said, the idea itself is well grounded. I'd suggest stealing the rules Python already has somewhere. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python list code of conduct
Does this list have a code of conduct or a netiqeutte (sp?) statement/requirement? If not, should it? No, and probably not. As Joshua Landau indicated, nobody reads the user manual anyway. In addition, this mailing list is not currently moderated in an approve-each-message sort of way (and I doubt anyone wants to take on that task). The gateway with comp.lang.python makes things somewhat worse I would think. I've forgotten how Usenet works for moderation (far too many dead neurons ago), but I doubt it would be all that effective. ISTR moderation is done using a simple header which can be faked. If someone annoys you to no end, I think your best recourse is to ignore their posts or ignore threads which seem to generate more heat than light. In the old Usenet days, periodic (monthly?) posting of FAQs was common in many newsgroups. Ignoring fake newsgroups like the stuff that Google Groups and Gmane create, this mailing list is my only exposure to Usenet. I have no idea if periodic FAQ posting is common practice anymore. It might be worthwhile to create one if it's kept fairly brief and to the point. Skip -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python list code of conduct
In article a3704f85-2ef1-41e7-8fd1-8d7191f3f...@email.android.com, Steve Simmons square.st...@gmail.com wrote: Does this list have a code of conduct or a netiqeutte (sp?) statement/requirement? From http://www.python.org/community/lists/ comp.lang.python comp.lang.python is a high-volume Usenet open (not moderated) newsgroup for general discussions and questions about Python. You can also access it as a mailing list through python-list. Pretty much anything Python-related is fair game for discussion, and the group is even fairly tolerant of off-topic digressions; there have been entertaining discussions of topics such as floating point, good software design, and other programming languages such as Lisp and Forth. Most discussion on comp.lang.python is about developing with Python, not about development of the Python interpreter itself. Some of the core developers still read the list, but most of them don't. Occasionally comp.lang.python suggestions have resulted in an enhancement proposal being written, leading to a new Python feature. If you find a bug in Python, don't send it to comp.lang.python; file a bug report in the issue tracker. Items posted on the Usenet group appear on the mailing list, and vice versa (bidirectional gateway). Due to the mysteries of Usenet, the order in which items show up may vary. Rudeness and personal attacks, even in reaction to blatant flamebait, are strongly frowned upon. People may strongly disagree on an issue, but usually discussion remains civil. In case of an actual flamebait posting, you can ignore it, quietly plonk the offending poster in your killfile or mail filters, or write a sharp but still-polite response, but at all costs resist the urge to flame back. Generally comp.lang.python is a high-signal, low-noise group. It's also a high-traffic group, running at around 200 posts per day. There are several different archives: ? Google Groups archive of comp.lang.python ? python.org archive of python-list ? gmane.org archive of python-list -- Ned Deily, n...@acm.org -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python list code of conduct
Steve Simmons square.st...@gmail.com writes: It probably isn't the best time to start this post but I was wondering... An excellent time to raise this, in my opinion. Thank you for doing so. Does this list have a code of conduct or a netiqeutte (sp?) statement/requirement? This forum (both a Usenet newsgroup and a mailing list) is part of the Python community. So the “Python Community Code of Conduct” applies. URL:http://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ That was formed by the Python community and adopted by our gracious hosts, the Python Software Foundation, who provide this forum for our use. The reason I ask is that it seems to me that if we (the current membership of the list) could agree to a set of preferred/required behaviours we would at least have a framework by which to measure unwelcome posts. I welcome use of the above code of conduct to guide social norms in this community. And, more importantly, to guide newcomers in understanding that we are enthusiasts who choose to discuss Python and *voluntarily* help solve problems with Python for the less experienced members. Amen. -- \ “If sharing a thing in no way diminishes it, it is not rightly | `\ owned if it is not shared.” —Saint Augustine | _o__) | Ben Finney -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python list code of conduct
In article mailman.4125.1372798337.3114.python-l...@python.org, Ned Deily n...@acm.org wrote: If you find a bug in Python, don't send it to comp.lang.python; file a bug report in the issue tracker. I'm not sure I agree with that one, at least not fully. It's certainly true that you shouldn't expect anybody to do anything about a bug unless you open an issue. On the other hand, I often find it useful to discuss things that I believe are bugs on c.l.p first. Sometimes people will explain to me that I'm just doing it wrong. Sometimes the discussion will end up with, Yeah, that's a bug. In either case, it serves as a good initial filter for whether I should file a bug or not, and the discussion is often educational. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python list code of conduct
In article roy-d8c68f.19461302072...@70-1-84-166.pools.spcsdns.net, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote: In article mailman.4125.1372798337.3114.python-l...@python.org, Ned Deily n...@acm.org wrote: If you find a bug in Python, don't send it to comp.lang.python; file a bug report in the issue tracker. I'm not sure I agree with that one, at least not fully. It's certainly true that you shouldn't expect anybody to do anything about a bug unless you open an issue. On the other hand, I often find it useful to discuss things that I believe are bugs on c.l.p first. Sometimes people will explain to me that I'm just doing it wrong. Sometimes the discussion will end up with, Yeah, that's a bug. In either case, it serves as a good initial filter for whether I should file a bug or not, and the discussion is often educational. For the record, those are not my words, rather a quote from the charter for this forum on http://www.python.org/community/lists/. I think the point of the quoted words is not to discourage discussion here but rather a reminder about the role of the issue tracker. As you say, don't expect anybody to do anything about it without an issue on the tracker. -- Ned Deily, n...@acm.org -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python list code of conduct
On 02Jul2013 19:46, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote: | In article mailman.4125.1372798337.3114.python-l...@python.org, | Ned Deily n...@acm.org wrote: | | If you find a bug in Python, don't send it to comp.lang.python; file | a bug report in the issue tracker. | | I'm not sure I agree with that one, at least not fully. It's certainly | true that you shouldn't expect anybody to do anything about a bug unless | you open an issue. | | On the other hand, I often find it useful to discuss things that I | believe are bugs on c.l.p first. Sometimes people will explain to me | that I'm just doing it wrong. Sometimes the discussion will end up | with, Yeah, that's a bug. In either case, it serves as a good initial | filter for whether I should file a bug or not, and the discussion is | often educational. +1 I've certinly been educated that way. -- Cameron Simpson c...@zip.com.au Try not to get sucked into the vortex of hell, Billy! - MST3K, Megalon vs. Godzilla -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python list code of conduct
Dennis Lee Bieber wlfr...@ix.netcom.com writes: So who would enforce any rules? Ideally, this community is healthy enough for us to enforce the code of conduct of our host, through social convention among us all. -- \“I took a course in speed waiting. Now I can wait an hour in | `\ only ten minutes.” —Steven Wright | _o__) | Ben Finney -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python list code of conduct
On Tue, 02 Jul 2013 16:51:38 +0100, Steve Simmons wrote: Erm, It probably isn't the best time to start this post but I was wondering... Does this list have a code of conduct or a netiqeutte (sp?) statement/requirement? If not, should it? I *knew* this would be raised. You are right to do so, of course, but I really, really, REALLY wasn't looking forward to it. No, this list does not have a Code of Conduct, apart from the informal conventions of netiquette (most of which can be summed up with don't be a dick) that most public forums populated by adults[1] operate under. In practical terms, it *cannot* have a Code of Conduct enforced, because it is an unmoderated list. Anyone can join. Anyone can post. It exists as both email and news. Do we need one? No, I don't think so. I'm philosophically opposed to formalising the idea of polite behaviour in a Code of Conduct for various reasons, but even putting that aside I have been here for at least 7 years, and I've seen Xah Lee come and go (and come, and go...) and Ranting Rick in full-on troll mode, and spammers, and endless heated discussions about fine semantics of some aspect of Python's object model. People come and go, but the community goes on, and we have weathered all of those and we will weather this damned argument over whether or not it is appropriate to flame help-vampires or not. [1] I refer to state of maturity, not chronological age. Some people are adult at ten, others can live to ninety and never be worthy of the term. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct]
On Tue, 02 Jul 2013 19:46:13 -0400, Roy Smith wrote: In article mailman.4125.1372798337.3114.python-l...@python.org, Ned Deily n...@acm.org wrote: If you find a bug in Python, don't send it to comp.lang.python; file a bug report in the issue tracker. I'm not sure I agree with that one, at least not fully. It's certainly true that you shouldn't expect anybody to do anything about a bug unless you open an issue. On the other hand, I often find it useful to discuss things that I believe are bugs on c.l.p first. Sometimes people will explain to me that I'm just doing it wrong. Sometimes the discussion will end up with, Yeah, that's a bug. In either case, it serves as a good initial filter for whether I should file a bug or not, and the discussion is often educational. Agreed strongly! It frustrates and amuses me when I see newbies, who sometimes don't know enough Python to tell the difference between (1, 2, 3) and [1, 2, 3], jump straight to the conclusion that anything that doesn't work the way they expect must be a bug in Python. If you are a beginner to a programming language, assume that anything that doesn't work the way you expect is a bug in YOUR code, or YOUR understanding, not in the language. 99.% of the time you will be correct. If you assume the opposite, you will nearly always just come across looking hopelessly naive at best, and at worst like an entitled, arrogant idiot. A popular language like Python has been around for about 20 years. It is in daily use by tens of thousands of people around the world. What are the chances that you, in your first week of using Python, just happened to stumble across a bug that *nobody else in the world* has noticed? So anyway, if you're going to make a fool of yourself by loudly proclaiming that your broken code is a bug in the language, at least do it here rather than waste the time of the people actually working on Python :-) -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct]
On 3 July 2013 01:52, Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote: If you are a beginner to a programming language, assume that anything that doesn't work the way you expect is a bug in YOUR code, or YOUR understanding, not in the language. Not just beginners. Out of the hundreds of times where I've gone this *can't* make sense, I think only one -maybe two- was an actual bug in Python. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
