Re: Wanted Python programmer to join team

[Mike Driscoll]

On Tuesday, May 17, 2016 at 12:20:53 AM UTC-5, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Tuesday 17 May 2016 12:56, Chris Angelico wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Steven D'Aprano <>
> > wrote:
> >> On Tue, 17 May 2016 09:07 am, Chris Angelico wrote:
> >>
> >>> I'm not overly bothered by the use of GMail for a business address,
> >>
> >> It's 2016. Using a gmail address for your business (unless you're a really
> >> small business, like a sole trader or something) is equivalent to a postal
> >> address of "Leave mail with the lady in the milk bar on the corner".
> >>
> >> It's not hard to run your own mail server. *I* can do it. At the very 
> >> least,
> >> register a domain and tell Gmail to use that, and *pretend* you're running
> >> your own mail server.
> > 
> > And a lot of job postings do come from that sort of really small
> > business, trying to expand a bit. Plus, some of them want some
> > anonymity (why, I don't know, but there are plenty of jobs posted
> > without too much in the way of company details)
> 
> That probably means the job advert is coming from a recruiter. They don't 
> want 
> people to contact the company directly, and they want to hide the fact that 
> they are a recruiter.
> 
> Personally, I think that advertising a job position without saying who you 
> are, 
> what you do, and offering at least an indicative salary range, are 
> *astonishingly* rude (to say nothing of counter-productive). If I see a job 
> for 
> (let's say) Blackwater[1], paying $900,000 a year, then I know that (1) I 
> don't 
> want to work for them, and (2) even if I did, I wouldn't be qualified; so I 
> don't waste either my time or theirs applying. But when I see a job for some 
> unnamed company with an unknown salary doing something often couched in the 
> vaguest possible terms, I end up wasting everyone's time.

+1

I have had recruiters from within Company A bug me about their company, but 
when I asked about a salary range, they said that they wouldn't discuss that 
until a later stage but that I would be happy with it. How would they know? 
They don't know what I make or what would make me happy! I ignored them after 
that even though I was interested in working for Company A.

They do a lot of weird things. Frankly the ones that look like they spam 
everyone provide more information than the more professional recruiters.

- Mike
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Re: Wanted Python programmer to join team

[Larry Martell]

On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 1:29 AM, Chris Angelico  wrote:
> On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 3:20 PM, Steven D'Aprano
>  wrote:
>>> And a lot of job postings do come from that sort of really small
>>> business, trying to expand a bit. Plus, some of them want some
>>> anonymity (why, I don't know, but there are plenty of jobs posted
>>> without too much in the way of company details)
>>
>> That probably means the job advert is coming from a recruiter. They don't 
>> want
>> people to contact the company directly, and they want to hide the fact that
>> they are a recruiter.
>
> Ehh, that's possible. Given that I seldom get any responses back from
> them, I can't tell whether they (a) are using a recruiter who hates my
> guts, (b) are using a recruiter who is utterly incompetent, (c) are
> doing the recruitment themselves, and are so utterly flat-out busy
> that they can't fire off a simple email to their applicants, or (d)
> are doing it themselves, and don't consider failed applicants worthy
> of an email. Could be any of the above, for all I can tell. Or (e),
> the job was posted from just outside the Bermuda Triangle.

Recruiters have changed so much in my career. Back in the early 80's
you would have to have an interview with the recruiter before they
would even consider submitting you for a job. They would know your
skill set and they would not present a job you were not qualified for.
They returned phone calls and emails. Nowadays I get emails and calls
for jobs with requirements that are nowhere on my resume (e.g. .NET or
sales) and when I am qualified and interested and I reply, in most
cases I get no response at all.
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Re: Wanted Python programmer to join team

[Marko Rauhamaa]

Steven D'Aprano :

> On Tuesday 17 May 2016 16:18, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>
>> Steven D'Aprano :
>>> Personally, I think that advertising a job position without saying who
>>> you are, what you do, and offering at least an indicative salary
>>> range, are *astonishingly* rude
>> I don't believe they care.
>> 
>>> (to say nothing of counter-productive).
>> Maybe, maybe not.
>> 
>> I bet the zebras on the savannah consider the lions astonishingly rude
>> and their strategy counter-productive. The savannah would be a nicer
>> place if the lions ate grass like everybody else.
>
> A strange analogy. Employers and potential employees are not really in a 
> predator/prey relationship.

The unsavory recruiters are the predators.

> The problem is that recruiter's best interests do not align neatly
> with either potential employees *or* employers. They're like real
> estate agents. The incentives for a recruiter is to find a barely
> acceptable hire as quickly as possible for the least amount of effort
> possible. There's no point in doing extra work to find the best new
> hire, if the employer is willing to take a so- so hire. Since the
> employer is only seeing potentials that the recruiter passes on, the
> employer has no way of telling what the pool of would-be employees is
> really like.

Correct. Also, they may genuinely not care about ethics of any sort.

> I'm not saying that all recruiters are unscrupulous or are intentionally 
> deceiving the other parties,

Nor am I.

> but the incentives are such that:

Different recruiters follow different strategies, methods and practices.
Psychopathy stays in our gene pool over generations because it sometimes
*is* a winning strategy.


Marko
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Re: Wanted Python programmer to join team

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Tuesday 17 May 2016 17:39, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> - they're more likely

Er, apparently they're not more likely to do anything specific, just more 
likely.



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Steve

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Re: Wanted Python programmer to join team

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Tuesday 17 May 2016 16:18, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:

> Steven D'Aprano :
>> Personally, I think that advertising a job position without saying who
>> you are, what you do, and offering at least an indicative salary
>> range, are *astonishingly* rude
> 
> I don't believe they care.
> 
>> (to say nothing of counter-productive).
> 
> Maybe, maybe not.
> 
> 
> I bet the zebras on the savannah consider the lions astonishingly rude
> and their strategy counter-productive. The savannah would be a nicer
> place if the lions ate grass like everybody else.

A strange analogy. Employers and potential employees are not really in a 
predator/prey relationship.

(Employers and *actual* employees sometimes are, but that's a sign of a really 
dysfunctional business culture.)

The problem is that recruiter's best interests do not align neatly with either 
potential employees *or* employers. They're like real estate agents. The 
incentives for a recruiter is to find a barely acceptable hire as quickly as 
possible for the least amount of effort possible. There's no point in doing 
extra work to find the best new hire, if the employer is willing to take a so-
so hire. Since the employer is only seeing potentials that the recruiter passes 
on, the employer has no way of telling what the pool of would-be employees is 
really like.

I'm not saying that all recruiters are unscrupulous or are intentionally 
deceiving the other parties, but the incentives are such that:

- recruiters will take a bit less care to choose the right employee for the 
job;

- they'll take a bit less care worrying about attracting the right people, 
because their relationship with the parties is (on average) quite short;

- they're more likely 


The worst part of this is the vicious circle aspect. The less care recruiters 
put into targeting their positions, the more they get inundated with poor 
quality applicants. This trains applicants to carpet bomb recruiters and 
employers (since they're trained to expect that all job ads are misleading, and 
also because the unemployment office requires them to apply to X positions a 
week, whether X suitable positions exist or not), which gives employers an 
incentive to use recruiters (rather than deal with the carpet bombing of 
applicants). 



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Steve

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Re: Wanted Python programmer to join team

[Marko Rauhamaa]

Steven D'Aprano :
> Personally, I think that advertising a job position without saying who
> you are, what you do, and offering at least an indicative salary
> range, are *astonishingly* rude

I don't believe they care.

> (to say nothing of counter-productive).

Maybe, maybe not.


I bet the zebras on the savannah consider the lions astonishingly rude
and their strategy counter-productive. The savannah would be a nicer
place if the lions ate grass like everybody else.


Marko
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Re: Wanted Python programmer to join team

[Chris Angelico]

On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 3:20 PM, Steven D'Aprano
 wrote:
>> And a lot of job postings do come from that sort of really small
>> business, trying to expand a bit. Plus, some of them want some
>> anonymity (why, I don't know, but there are plenty of jobs posted
>> without too much in the way of company details)
>
> That probably means the job advert is coming from a recruiter. They don't want
> people to contact the company directly, and they want to hide the fact that
> they are a recruiter.

Ehh, that's possible. Given that I seldom get any responses back from
them, I can't tell whether they (a) are using a recruiter who hates my
guts, (b) are using a recruiter who is utterly incompetent, (c) are
doing the recruitment themselves, and are so utterly flat-out busy
that they can't fire off a simple email to their applicants, or (d)
are doing it themselves, and don't consider failed applicants worthy
of an email. Could be any of the above, for all I can tell. Or (e),
the job was posted from just outside the Bermuda Triangle.

ChrisA
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Re: Wanted Python programmer to join team

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Tuesday 17 May 2016 12:56, Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Steven D'Aprano 
> wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 May 2016 09:07 am, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not overly bothered by the use of GMail for a business address,
>>
>> It's 2016. Using a gmail address for your business (unless you're a really
>> small business, like a sole trader or something) is equivalent to a postal
>> address of "Leave mail with the lady in the milk bar on the corner".
>>
>> It's not hard to run your own mail server. *I* can do it. At the very least,
>> register a domain and tell Gmail to use that, and *pretend* you're running
>> your own mail server.
> 
> And a lot of job postings do come from that sort of really small
> business, trying to expand a bit. Plus, some of them want some
> anonymity (why, I don't know, but there are plenty of jobs posted
> without too much in the way of company details)

That probably means the job advert is coming from a recruiter. They don't want 
people to contact the company directly, and they want to hide the fact that 
they are a recruiter.

Personally, I think that advertising a job position without saying who you are, 
what you do, and offering at least an indicative salary range, are 
*astonishingly* rude (to say nothing of counter-productive). If I see a job for 
(let's say) Blackwater[1], paying $900,000 a year, then I know that (1) I don't 
want to work for them, and (2) even if I did, I wouldn't be qualified; so I 
don't waste either my time or theirs applying. But when I see a job for some 
unnamed company with an unknown salary doing something often couched in the 
vaguest possible terms, I end up wasting everyone's time.

This is part of the reason why it's not unusual for people end up applying for 
one or two hundred jobs before even getting a response, let alone an offer.



[1] Or whatever they call themselves these days.

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Steve

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Re: Wanted Python programmer to join team

[Chris Angelico]

On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
> On Tue, 17 May 2016 09:07 am, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> I'm not overly bothered by the use of GMail for a business address,
>
> It's 2016. Using a gmail address for your business (unless you're a really
> small business, like a sole trader or something) is equivalent to a postal
> address of "Leave mail with the lady in the milk bar on the corner".
>
> It's not hard to run your own mail server. *I* can do it. At the very least,
> register a domain and tell Gmail to use that, and *pretend* you're running
> your own mail server.

And a lot of job postings do come from that sort of really small
business, trying to expand a bit. Plus, some of them want some
anonymity (why, I don't know, but there are plenty of jobs posted
without too much in the way of company details), so maybe they do have
a domain as well.

Anyway, it's a small downside, but nothing compared to the other
issues with the post.

ChrisA
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Re: Wanted Python programmer to join team

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Tue, 17 May 2016 09:07 am, Chris Angelico wrote:

> I'm not overly bothered by the use of GMail for a business address,

It's 2016. Using a gmail address for your business (unless you're a really
small business, like a sole trader or something) is equivalent to a postal
address of "Leave mail with the lady in the milk bar on the corner".

It's not hard to run your own mail server. *I* can do it. At the very least,
register a domain and tell Gmail to use that, and *pretend* you're running
your own mail server.



-- 
Steven

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Re: Wanted Python programmer to join team

[Chris Angelico]

On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Dan Strohl via Python-list
 wrote:
>> My team is getting more projects that it can handle so we are looking for
>> Python programers to join. You will be given tasks to complete full or part 
>> of
>> the project.
>>
>> Skype: piefektas
>>
>> Contact me now with short description about yourself, your skills and
>> projects you have worked on.
>>
>
> Sorry... nope.  You lost me with using an email address like "netcrime4" and 
> using "gmail" as your address.  As a suggestion next time, try using a more 
> professional address, such as one for a company, and one that does not 
> suggest that the work might not be totally legit.
>
> (NOTE: I am NOT saying you aren’t legit, nor that the work is criminal, just 
> that the impression you gave was less than professional, and even if I was 
> looking, I would not consider contacting someone who presented that way.)
>

I'm not overly bothered by the use of GMail for a business address,
although you're right that a registered domain looks better. (And
"netcrime4" definitely doesn't fill me with confidence.) But more
bothersome is the sending of job postings to a list/newsgroup that
isn't meant to be used for that. Instead, try posting here:

https://www.python.org/jobs/

If you can't convince the Job Board folks that you're legit, you
probably won't be able to post. (Which I think is a good thing.)

ChrisA
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RE: Wanted Python programmer to join team

[Dan Strohl via Python-list]

> My team is getting more projects that it can handle so we are looking for
> Python programers to join. You will be given tasks to complete full or part of
> the project.
> 
> Skype: piefektas
> 
> Contact me now with short description about yourself, your skills and
> projects you have worked on.
> 

Sorry... nope.  You lost me with using an email address like "netcrime4" and 
using "gmail" as your address.  As a suggestion next time, try using a more 
professional address, such as one for a company, and one that does not suggest 
that the work might not be totally legit.

(NOTE: I am NOT saying you aren’t legit, nor that the work is criminal, just 
that the impression you gave was less than professional, and even if I was 
looking, I would not consider contacting someone who presented that way.)




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Re: Wanted Python programmer to join team

[Wildman via Python-list]

On Mon, 16 May 2016 12:46:13 -0700, netcrime4 wrote:

> My team is getting more projects that it can handle so we are looking for 
> Python programers to join. You will be given tasks to complete full or part 
> of the project.
> 
> Majority of projects consist of data mining(scraping) so experence in this 
> field is advantage.

No thanks.

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