Re: Anonymous email users

[Chris Angelico via Python-list]

On Wed, 26 Jun 2024 at 03:40, Anton Shepelev via Python-list
 wrote:
>
> Chris Angelico to dn:
>
> > > Python mailing-lists are covered by the Code of Conduct
> > > and monitored by ListAdmins. Thus, there are controls
> > > which limit the impact which advertisers and others with
> > > non-pythonic aims might otherwise exert!
> >
> > So long as there's a newsgroup gateway, those controls are
> > toothless.
>
> The gateway operator can have the usual anti-spam software
> installed

Anti-spam is not the same as CoC and admins, though. Without putting
an actual moderation barrier in there, it's still toothless.

(Yes, there are a scant few posters who've been blocked from the
gateway, but it's rare.)

ChrisA
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Re: Anonymous email users

[Anton Shepelev via Python-list]

Chris Angelico to dn:

> > Python mailing-lists are covered by the Code of Conduct
> > and monitored by ListAdmins. Thus, there are controls
> > which limit the impact which advertisers and others with
> > non-pythonic aims might otherwise exert!
>
> So long as there's a newsgroup gateway, those controls are
> toothless.

The gateway operator can have the usual anti-spam software
installed, and of course there is Gmane:

  

which actually subscribes users to mailing lists (on their
behalf).  Gmane's NNTP server is: news.gmane.io .

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Re: Anonymous email users

[Anton Shepelev via Python-list]

Sebastian Wells:

> The spammers won the spam wars, so even if you have
> someone's real e-mail address, that's no guarantee that
> you can contact them.

No so with me.  My e-mail address here is munged, but in a
very obvious way, and no, my mailbox is not overwhelmed with
spam.

I make a habit of reporting spam via:

  1.  https://www.spamcop.net/anonsignup.shtml
  2.  https://submit.spamhaus.org/submit/

They maintain blacklists of e-mail providers or notify them
of spam e-mails.  It helps.

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RE: Anonymous email users

[AVI GROSS via Python-list]

This discussion has wandered far from my original mention that I found it
hard to reply to people using an invalid email address. I see no real
connection to python except insofar as at least one spam-filter mentioned is
written in python!

Just to add an observation, the people writing here have obviously had many
different experiences with their email addresses and whether yours is
hijacked in some way, and made less useful, can even just become down to
random luck. 

But SPAM filters can also be manipulated and cause you to lose mail. I think
some people have been reporting email from a source they do not favor, such
as for political reasons, that then ends up being junked for people who
would welcome the messages. And, I can well imagine how something like a
post about python programs can start being filtered out because some key
words commonly use end up being used a lot in some kind of SPAM and the
filter "learns" to filter those out. Imagine of "python" appeared in lots of
actual SPAM messages as the war moved on, such as in the metadata designed
to make it look legit.

Email addresses can go bad for many reasons. My wife had a nice simple
address like jane.sm...@gmail.com that was messed up probably by
well-meaning people when another Jane Smith had an email address like
smith.jane or janesmith123 and they or others typed in the more
straightforward ones. It seems we ended up getting odd email from many
continents such as e-tickets for airplanes, initial estimates or bills from
vendors for products in places we have never been for services rendered in
say Tennessee or South Africa (well, I've been in Tennessee, but) and
subscriptions to internet magazines or groups that sent lots of messages, or
conversations between lots of people (all To: or Cc:) that included her
email address wrongly and even when she replied to ask to be taken off, the
conversations continued for months as many kept hitting reply-all, ...)

And, obviously, with so many people using the address wrongly, SPAM
followed.

Of course, choosing a strange name designed not to be typed by accident, has
it's own disadvantages.

But for those who want me to CALL their unspecified phone number and tell
them the subject line and then maybe you will look for my message,
FUGGEDABOUTIT! I have a cousin who does a trick  with her phone service
where she never answers and I have to run some gauntlet to identify myself
and then wait for a call back. After a few times, I solved the problem and
simply never call her.

Admittedly, making it hard for an email address to be abused in a forum like
this is understandable. Making it very hard to reach you legitimately when
the message is that your house is burning or just that your appointment is
canceled, may not work as well as you think.

And, FYI, I check my junkmail regularly and I have a fairly high rate of
finding things, including posts on forums like this one, that are NOT in my
opinion junk as I ordered them and they are on topic and not easily visible
as having committed some kind of sin. And as I use many email services, I
still find a high rate of false negatives everywhere.

It would not surprise me if a phrase like "not SPAM" gets this message
dumped into /dev/null


-Original Message-
From: Python-list  On
Behalf Of Chris Angelico via Python-list
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2024 9:49 PM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: Anonymous email users

On Tue, 25 Jun 2024 at 11:41, Grant Edwards via Python-list
 wrote:
> I've been using the same e-mail address for about 20 years. I've use
> that e-mail address with probably close to 100 retailers, charities,
> open-source projects, media sites, and various other organizations.

Mostly the same, although in my case, I've had multiple email
addresses for different purposes (and still kept all of them for
decades).

> I get at most a few spam emails per week [I just checked my spam
> folder: 8 in the past 30 days]. And Gmail is very, very close to 100%
> accurate at filtering them out.  I can't remember the last time I
> actually got a spam message in my inbox.
>
> > A few years ago the spam count was greater than a 1,000 a month.
>
> I'm baffled.  Is Gmail silently rejecting that much junk before it
> even gets to the filter that puts stuff into my "spam" folder?
>

It really depends on how you count. On my mail server (can't get stats
for Gmail), I have a number of anti-spam and anti-abuse rules that
apply prior to the Bayesian filtering (for example, protocol
violations), and any spam that gets blocked by those rules isn't shown
in my stats. And then I have a further set of rules that nuke some of
the most blatant spam, and finally the regular trainable filter. I
should probably keep better stats on the stuff I don't keep, but at
the moment, all I actually track is the ones that the filter sees -
which is roughly 25-50 a day.

So yeah, Gmail is 

Re: Anonymous email users

[Chris Angelico via Python-list]

On Tue, 25 Jun 2024 at 11:41, Grant Edwards via Python-list
 wrote:
> I've been using the same e-mail address for about 20 years. I've use
> that e-mail address with probably close to 100 retailers, charities,
> open-source projects, media sites, and various other organizations.

Mostly the same, although in my case, I've had multiple email
addresses for different purposes (and still kept all of them for
decades).

> I get at most a few spam emails per week [I just checked my spam
> folder: 8 in the past 30 days]. And Gmail is very, very close to 100%
> accurate at filtering them out.  I can't remember the last time I
> actually got a spam message in my inbox.
>
> > A few years ago the spam count was greater than a 1,000 a month.
>
> I'm baffled.  Is Gmail silently rejecting that much junk before it
> even gets to the filter that puts stuff into my "spam" folder?
>

It really depends on how you count. On my mail server (can't get stats
for Gmail), I have a number of anti-spam and anti-abuse rules that
apply prior to the Bayesian filtering (for example, protocol
violations), and any spam that gets blocked by those rules isn't shown
in my stats. And then I have a further set of rules that nuke some of
the most blatant spam, and finally the regular trainable filter. I
should probably keep better stats on the stuff I don't keep, but at
the moment, all I actually track is the ones that the filter sees -
which is roughly 25-50 a day.

So yeah, Gmail is probably rejecting that much junk, but most of
it for protocol violations.

ChrisA
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Re: Anonymous email users

[Grant Edwards via Python-list]

On 2024-06-24, Barry Scott via Python-list  wrote:
>> On 23 Jun 2024, at 06:58, Sebastian Wells via Python-list 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> The spammers won the spam wars, so even if you have someone's real
>> e-mail address, that's no guarantee that you can contact them. [...]
>
> My email address is well known and yes I get spam emails.

I've been puzzled by this for a long time. Many people talk about how
they get so much spam e-mail that there's little chance they'll notice
if I send them an e-mail.

I've been using the same e-mail address for about 20 years. I've use
that e-mail address with probably close to 100 retailers, charities,
open-source projects, media sites, and various other organizations.

I get at most a few spam emails per week [I just checked my spam
folder: 8 in the past 30 days]. And Gmail is very, very close to 100%
accurate at filtering them out.  I can't remember the last time I
actually got a spam message in my inbox.

> A few years ago the spam count was greater than a 1,000 a month.

I'm baffled.  Is Gmail silently rejecting that much junk before it
even gets to the filter that puts stuff into my "spam" folder?

--
Grant


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Re: Anonymous email users

[Chris Angelico via Python-list]

On Tue, 25 Jun 2024 at 08:31, dn via Python-list  wrote:
> Python mailing-lists are covered by the Code of Conduct and monitored by
> ListAdmins. Thus, there are controls which limit the impact which
> advertisers and others with non-pythonic aims might otherwise exert!
>

So long as there's a newsgroup gateway, those controls are toothless.

ChrisA
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Re: Anonymous email users

[dn via Python-list]

On 25/06/24 05:17, Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote:

On 6/24/2024 5:51 AM, Barry Scott via Python-list wrote:



On 23 Jun 2024, at 06:58, Sebastian Wells via Python-list 
 wrote:


The spammers won the spam wars, so even if you have someone's real
e-mail address, that's no guarantee that you can contact them. You
certainly wouldn't be able to contact me at my real e-mail address,
unless you also had my phone number, so you could call me and tell
me that you sent me an e-mail, and what the subject line was so I
can find it. I don't even open my e-mail inbox unless there's a
specific message I'm expecting to find there right now.


My email address is well known and yes I get spam emails.

I use the wonderful python based spambayes software to detect spam and
file into a Junk folder. It works for 99.9% of the emails I get.


I use the Thunderbird mail client and I just use its built in spam 
detector.  I don't know how it works but it's pretty darn good.  Very 
few false positives or false negatives.  And it learns each time I 
classify a message as "Junk", in case it missed one.


I am subscribed to a lot of mailing lists. I just checked and I am 
getting ~3,200

emails a month of which less than 200 are spam.

A few years ago the spam count was greater than a 1,000 a month.

I have been using spambayes for a very long time, 20 years I guess at 
this

point and bayesian categorisation has stood the test of time for me.

For me the spammers have not won, I have the tech to keep ahead of them.


Aside from the attractions of the new, and the 'shiny', what 
email-antagonists didn't anticipate, was that as fast as they moved to 
non-email messaging, the spammers, advertisers, and malcontents would 
simply do the same. Thus, a variation on whack-a-mole, as folk move from 
platform to platform trying to stay-ahead and find an illusion of 
safety. Quite how one out-runs human-nature is an issue 
philosophised-over by the (Ancient) Greeks (and was no-doubt old even-then).


Paradoxically, applying for an account elsewhere usually involves 
providing an email address. Even backing-up a cell-phone (communication 
tool) to the cloud requires an email address(!!!)


Most of the non-email platforms are provided by organisations who have 
'other uses' for your personal-data (and not forgetting GMail and MSFT's 
email services).


Python mailing-lists are covered by the Code of Conduct and monitored by 
ListAdmins. Thus, there are controls which limit the impact which 
advertisers and others with non-pythonic aims might otherwise exert!


--
Regards,
=dn
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RE: [Tutor] How to go about a simple object grabbing in python (given coordinates of arms and objects)

[AVI GROSS via Python-list]

Marc,

Several people have supplied feedback on whether your request is a good fit for 
here. Ultimately it is up to the owner/moderator. In particular, your request 
to the Tutor List may not fit the purpose and be a bit complex  and to the main 
Python List also outside some common usage whether it is about a specific 
module or product you are using, or asking about algorithms in a very general 
way.

You question has evolved to being about algorithms, more than about Python as a 
basic language or even commonly used modules.

So, I suggest you simplify your model and then maybe bring it in-line with the 
module(s) you showed us you were using. Some of what you ask sounds like it 
would be extremely commonly done in things like robotics, or even just machines 
with moving parts.

Consider the somewhat related concept often seen of how you get from one place 
to another in parts of Manhattan where most of the streets run either in one 
direction or the orthogonal direction. How do you get from say East 14th Street 
at 1st Avenue to West 28th Street and 11th Avenue? This is a slight imitation 
of how to move a robotic arm that can mainly either go one way or another but 
not both at once. And, in the real world, parts of Manhattan are more complex 
with streets ending or renaming or running more diagonally or huge voids like 
Central Park.

The number of solutions is huge for walking, and smaller for driving as some 
streets are one way. But assuming you avoid wasteful paths (except when roads 
are closed for endless purposes) and you do not take a path through Brooklyn, 
Queens and The Bronx and back to Manhattan as in the NY Marathon that also 
touches another borough, the solutions mainly look like this:

Go as far horizontally as you need and then as far vertically.
Or, do vertical, then horizontal.
Or lots of combined versions such as climbing stairs by doing a block or three 
one way then some in the other and repeat.

The above is referred to as Manhattan Distance, as compared to other measures 
like Euclidean distance.

So back to your robot arm, you can see a set of simple solutions where you make 
a sort of triangle with the direct Euclidean arm being a hypoteneuse and the  X 
and Y movements are the other two sides. You can then break up your problem as 
heading one way and pausing and turning the other way and stopping just short 
of the object you want. If there are no obstacles, you can do that in either 
order. Or, you could alternate in smaller amounts and get to the same 
destination. 

Grabbing it would be something else I will not address except to say that 
depending on what is grabbing and how it is shaped, you may need to aim not for 
the object, but the appropriate distance and direction so that when you stop 
moving, the "grasper" can close on it, again, avoiding existing obstacles. And 
note, speed is a consideration as many things need to be approached slowly and 
gently.

Next, consider what it would mean if you could have a combined motion based on 
both operations allowed at the same time. Consider a robot that is on wheels 
that can move horizontally while also having a "lift" component that lifts the 
part with the graspers vertically. Both could be programmed to run in tandem at 
appropriate speeds so the graspers are traveling along the hypotenuse I mention 
and are going the shortest path. This might be faster and more economical in 
other ways but can be more complex. And, it may be the robot does not have 
power or computing ability to do both at the same time. Your design is beyond 
vague.

Both of the approaches above make a plan and carry it out. But in the real 
world, many algorithms must adjust and work somewhat probabilistically. One 
algorithm for say catching a moving object, especially one that can change 
speed and direction a bit, like a running dog or a kite flying in the wind, is 
to locate where the object seems to be now, perhaps just a direction and a 
guess at distance, and maybe with some observation make a guess at where it 
might be at some time in the future that is approximately when you might move 
the robot near there. Then, use a technique like above (or completely 
different) that perhaps aims to get you something like halfway there. Monitor 
along the way to update your position and the newest destination position (if 
it is moving) and re-evaluate and adjust for the next round and maybe evaluate 
again as you approach halfway or so, again. Eventually, if you are close, slow 
down and gradually try to come to a stop where you can grab. If the object 
reacts to your attempting to go after it, it can be complex. And, you may 
overshoot and sort of circle back.

Now, expand the problem more if needed. What does the robot look like. How many 
places can it bend? For example, can it have something like two or more elbows, 
perhaps one allowing twisting of up to 30 degrees and one moving forward and 
backward and another al

Re: Anonymous email users

[Thomas Passin via Python-list]

On 6/24/2024 5:51 AM, Barry Scott via Python-list wrote:




On 23 Jun 2024, at 06:58, Sebastian Wells via Python-list 
 wrote:

The spammers won the spam wars, so even if you have someone's real
e-mail address, that's no guarantee that you can contact them. You
certainly wouldn't be able to contact me at my real e-mail address,
unless you also had my phone number, so you could call me and tell
me that you sent me an e-mail, and what the subject line was so I
can find it. I don't even open my e-mail inbox unless there's a
specific message I'm expecting to find there right now.


My email address is well known and yes I get spam emails.

I use the wonderful python based spambayes software to detect spam and
file into a Junk folder. It works for 99.9% of the emails I get.


I use the Thunderbird mail client and I just use its built in spam 
detector.  I don't know how it works but it's pretty darn good.  Very 
few false positives or false negatives.  And it learns each time I 
classify a message as "Junk", in case it missed one.



I am subscribed to a lot of mailing lists. I just checked and I am getting 
~3,200
emails a month of which less than 200 are spam.

A few years ago the spam count was greater than a 1,000 a month.

I have been using spambayes for a very long time, 20 years I guess at this
point and bayesian categorisation has stood the test of time for me.

For me the spammers have not won, I have the tech to keep ahead of them.

Barry



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Re: Anonymous email users

[Barry Scott via Python-list]

> On 23 Jun 2024, at 06:58, Sebastian Wells via Python-list 
>  wrote:
> 
> The spammers won the spam wars, so even if you have someone's real
> e-mail address, that's no guarantee that you can contact them. You
> certainly wouldn't be able to contact me at my real e-mail address,
> unless you also had my phone number, so you could call me and tell
> me that you sent me an e-mail, and what the subject line was so I
> can find it. I don't even open my e-mail inbox unless there's a
> specific message I'm expecting to find there right now.

My email address is well known and yes I get spam emails.

I use the wonderful python based spambayes software to detect spam and
file into a Junk folder. It works for 99.9% of the emails I get.

I am subscribed to a lot of mailing lists. I just checked and I am getting 
~3,200
emails a month of which less than 200 are spam.

A few years ago the spam count was greater than a 1,000 a month.

I have been using spambayes for a very long time, 20 years I guess at this
point and bayesian categorisation has stood the test of time for me.

For me the spammers have not won, I have the tech to keep ahead of them.

Barry

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Re: [Tutor] How to go about a simple object grabbing in python (given coordinates of arms and objects)

[marc nicole via Python-list]

What are the parameters to account for in this type of algorithm? are there
some checks to perform the arm moves ? for example angle moves or cartesian
moves based on some distance thresholds? Any idea about the
pseudo-algorithm is welcome.

Thanks.

Le dim. 23 juin 2024 à 10:33, Alan Gauld via Tutor  a
écrit :

> On 22/06/2024 13:41, marc nicole wrote:
>
> > So, given the x,y,z coordinates of a target object and the offset x,y,z
> of
> > arms of a robot, what is a good algorithm to perform to grab the object
> > between the hands (either from both sides or from below all using both
> > hands).
> >
> > Specifically, my problem is applied to a NAO robot environment where I
> > retrieve a target object coordinates using the following code:
>
> This is almost entirely outside the Python domain and all within
> your 3rd party environment. Do they have a user forum or mailing
> list? You will probably get better results asking there?
>
> Another possibility is that you are using a Python wrapper around
> a C (or other language) library and there might be FAQs, fora or
> lists supporting that. If so you should be able to translate
> their examples to your Python code?
>
> In terms of generic solutions the only thing I can suggest that
> might help is to research collision detection algorithms.
> Wikipedia is likely a good starting point.
>
> --
> Alan G
> Author of the Learn to Program web site
> http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
> http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
> Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos
>
>
>
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Re: Decoding bytes to text strings in Python 2

[Chris Angelico via Python-list]

On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 at 10:18, MRAB via Python-list
 wrote:
> Tkinter in recent versions of Python can handle astral characters, at
> least back to Python 3.8, the oldest I have on my Windows PC.

Good to know, thanks! I was hoping that would be the case, but I don't
have a Windows system to check on, so I didn't want to speak without
facts.

ChrisA
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Re: Decoding bytes to text strings in Python 2

[MRAB via Python-list]

On 2024-06-24 00:30, Chris Angelico via Python-list wrote:

On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 at 08:20, Rayner Lucas via Python-list
 wrote:


In article ,
ros...@gmail.com says...
>
> If you switch to a Linux system, it should work correctly, and you'll
> be able to migrate the rest of the way onto Python 3. Once you achieve
> that, you'll be able to operate on Windows or Linux equivalently,
> since Python 3 solved this problem. At least, I *think* it will; my
> current system has a Python 2 installed, but doesn't have tkinter
> (because I never bothered to install it), and it's no longer available
> from the upstream Debian repos, so I only tested it in the console.
> But the decoding certainly worked.

Thank you for the idea of trying it on a Linux system. I did so, and my
example code generated the error:

_tkinter.TclError: character U+1f40d is above the range (U+-U+)
allowed by Tcl

So it looks like the problem is ultimately due to a limitation of
Tcl/Tk.

Yep, that seems to be the case. Not sure if that's still true on a
more recent Python, but it does look like you won't get astral
characters in tkinter on the one you're using.


[snip]
Tkinter in recent versions of Python can handle astral characters, at 
least back to Python 3.8, the oldest I have on my Windows PC.

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Re: Decoding bytes to text strings in Python 2

[Chris Angelico via Python-list]

On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 at 08:20, Rayner Lucas via Python-list
 wrote:
>
> In article ,
> ros...@gmail.com says...
> >
> > If you switch to a Linux system, it should work correctly, and you'll
> > be able to migrate the rest of the way onto Python 3. Once you achieve
> > that, you'll be able to operate on Windows or Linux equivalently,
> > since Python 3 solved this problem. At least, I *think* it will; my
> > current system has a Python 2 installed, but doesn't have tkinter
> > (because I never bothered to install it), and it's no longer available
> > from the upstream Debian repos, so I only tested it in the console.
> > But the decoding certainly worked.
>
> Thank you for the idea of trying it on a Linux system. I did so, and my
> example code generated the error:
>
> _tkinter.TclError: character U+1f40d is above the range (U+-U+)
> allowed by Tcl
>
> So it looks like the problem is ultimately due to a limitation of
> Tcl/Tk.
Yep, that seems to be the case. Not sure if that's still true on a
more recent Python, but it does look like you won't get astral
characters in tkinter on the one you're using.

> I'm still not sure why it doesn't give an error on Windows and

Because of the aforementioned weirdness of old (that is: pre-3.3)
Python versions on Windows. They were built to use a messy, buggy
hybrid of UCS-2 and UTF-16. Sometimes this got you around problems, or
at least masked them; but it wouldn't be reliable. That's why, in
Python 3.3, all that was fixed :)

> instead either works (when UTF-8 encoding is specified) or converts the
> out-of-range characters to ones it can display (when the encoding isn't
> specified). But now I know what the root of the problem is, I can deal
> with it appropriately (and my curiosity is at least partly satisfied).

Converting out-of-range characters is fairly straightforward, at least
as long as your Python interpreter is correctly built (so, Python 3,
or a Linux build of Python 2).

"".join(c if ord(c) < 65536 else "?" for c in text)

> This has given me a much better understanding of what I need to do in
> order to migrate to Python 3 and add proper support for non-ASCII
> characters, so I'm very grateful for your help!
>

Excellent. Hopefully all this mess is just a transitional state and
you'll get to something that REALLY works, soon!

ChrisA
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Re: Anonymous email users

[Sebastian Wells via Python-list]

On Fri, 14 Jun 2024 18:00:37 -0400, avi.e.gross wrote:

> I notice that in some recent discussions, we have users who cannot be
> replied to directly as their email addresses are not valid ones, and I
> believe on purpose. Examples in the thread I was going to reply to are:
>  
>   henha...@devnull.tb
>  
>   no.email@nospam.invalid
>  
>  
> candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid (user  is
> generated from /dev/urandom)
>  
> I know some here suggest that we only reply to the wider community and
> they have a point. But I think there is a role for having some
> conversations offline and especially when they are not likely to be
> wanted, or even tolerated, by many in the community.
>  
> Using such fake or invalid emails makes it hard to answer the person
> directly or perhaps politely ask them for more info on their request or
> discuss unrelated common interests. Worse, when I reply, unless I use
> reply-all, my mailer sends to them futilely. When I do the reply-all, I
> have to edit out their name or get a rejection.
>  

The spammers won the spam wars, so even if you have someone's real
e-mail address, that's no guarantee that you can contact them. You
certainly wouldn't be able to contact me at my real e-mail address,
unless you also had my phone number, so you could call me and tell
me that you sent me an e-mail, and what the subject line was so I
can find it. I don't even open my e-mail inbox unless there's a
specific message I'm expecting to find there right now.

With e-mail addresses being phone-validated, it's not easy to create
a new one either. And even if I did, you can't even trust e-mail 
providers not to give your address out to spammers.

The only function e-mail addresses serve now is to positively identify
the sender of a Usenet posting so he can be targeted for harassment,
lawsuits, or worse.
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Re: Decoding bytes to text strings in Python 2

[Rayner Lucas via Python-list]

In article , r...@zedat.fu-
berlin.de says...
> 
>   I didn't really do a super thorough deep dive on this,
>   but I'm just giving the initial impression without 
>   actually being familiar with Tkinter under Python 2,
>   so I might be wrong!
> 
>   The Text widget typically expects text in Tcl encoding,
>   which is usually UTF-8. 
> 
>   This is independent of the result returned by sys.get-
>   defaultencoding()! 
> 
>   If a UTF-8 string is inserted directly as a bytes object,
>   its code points will be displayed correctly by the Text 
>   widget as long as they are in the BMP (Basic Multilingual
>   Plane), as you already found out yourself.

Many thanks, you've helped me greatly in understanding what's happening. 
When I tried running my example code on a different system (Python 
2.7.18 on Linux, with Tcl/Tk 8.5), I got the error:

_tkinter.TclError: character U+1f40d is above the range (U+-U+) 
allowed by Tcl

So, as your reply suggests, the problem is ultimately a limitation of 
Tcl/Tk itself. Perhaps I should have spent more time studying the docs 
for that instead of puzzling over the details of character encodings in 
Python! I'm not sure why it doesn't give the same error on Windows, but 
at least now I know where the root of the issue is.

I am now much better informed about how to migrate the code I'm working 
on, so I am very grateful for your help.

Thanks,
Rayner
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Re: Decoding bytes to text strings in Python 2

[Rayner Lucas via Python-list]

In article , 
ros...@gmail.com says...
> 
> If you switch to a Linux system, it should work correctly, and you'll
> be able to migrate the rest of the way onto Python 3. Once you achieve
> that, you'll be able to operate on Windows or Linux equivalently,
> since Python 3 solved this problem. At least, I *think* it will; my
> current system has a Python 2 installed, but doesn't have tkinter
> (because I never bothered to install it), and it's no longer available
> from the upstream Debian repos, so I only tested it in the console.
> But the decoding certainly worked.

Thank you for the idea of trying it on a Linux system. I did so, and my 
example code generated the error:

_tkinter.TclError: character U+1f40d is above the range (U+-U+) 
allowed by Tcl

So it looks like the problem is ultimately due to a limitation of 
Tcl/Tk. I'm still not sure why it doesn't give an error on Windows and 
instead either works (when UTF-8 encoding is specified) or converts the 
out-of-range characters to ones it can display (when the encoding isn't 
specified). But now I know what the root of the problem is, I can deal 
with it appropriately (and my curiosity is at least partly satisfied).

This has given me a much better understanding of what I need to do in 
order to migrate to Python 3 and add proper support for non-ASCII 
characters, so I'm very grateful for your help!

Thanks,
Rayner
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Re: [Tutor] How to go about a simple object grabbing in python (given coordinates of arms and objects)

[marc nicole via Python-list]

My code is just an attempt at the task, it is not exact as what relates to
the coordinates (e.g., doesn't account for the size of the object. I would
like to have a idea on the general approach to such problems (even a pseudo
code would do)

"Get the hands rapidly enough in the vicinity and then do some fine
coordinated motions to capture the object and then presumably move it."
seems to be a good approach indeed,
The grabbing with both hands code should be more precise.

Thanks for the help anyways!

Le sam. 22 juin 2024 à 23:04, ThreeBlindQuarks 
a écrit :

> Marc,
>
> Could you specify what is wrong with what you are doing? you show us code
> that uses an environment you point to that is largely outside of basic
> Python.
>
> There is no one way to get from point A to point B and various constraints
> you have not mentioned can apply. How many joints does the assemblage have
> and what are the limits and costs associated with each. Cam there be
> barriers along a route, including to the side where they may brush part of
> your equipment. Are other things moving (independently even) that may end
> up blocking.
>
> You seem to need both "hands" and presumably at the same time. So
> solutions can take that into account. You need to define what is meant by
> contacting the object to move and you don't want to approach it and hit
> with some speed.
>
> So, the problem may be in parts. Get the hands rapidly enough in the
> vicinity and then do some fine coordinated motions to capture the object
> and then presumably move it.
>
> If you could point to what code is not doing what is expected, someone who
> knows the details or is willing to learn, might help, If you want an
> overall algorithm, there may be some people could share but they may not
> easily translate into the package of sorts you are using.
>
> But the web site you point us to may well already contain examples of
> doing some aspects that you might learn from.
>
> For me, this is too detailed to focus on as I struggle to figure out how
> to move my hands to different parts of my keyboard while looking ...
>
> And that may be one variant of an algorithm where instead of trying to
> move all the way, you move art-way and LOOK where you are, then repeat.
>
>
> Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
>
> On Saturday, June 22nd, 2024 at 8:41 AM, marc nicole 
> wrote:
>
> > Hello to all of this magnificent community!
> >
> > I have this problem I had already spent a few days on and still can't
> > figure out a proper solution.
> >
> > So, given the x,y,z coordinates of a target object and the offset x,y,z
> of
> > arms of a robot, what is a good algorithm to perform to grab the object
> > between the hands (either from both sides or from below all using both
> > hands).
> >
> > Specifically, my problem is applied to a NAO robot environment where I
> > retrieve a target object coordinates using the following code:
> >
> > tracker_service= session.service("ALTracker")
> > xyz_pos = tracker_service.getTargetPosition(motion.FRAME_TORSO)
> >
> >
> > src:
> >
> http://doc.aldebaran.com/2-8/naoqi/motion/control-cartesian.html#motion-cartesian-effectors
> >
> >
> > Then I get to move the right arm towards nearby the object using the
> > following code:
> >
> > effector = "RArm"
> >
> > frame = motion.FRAME_TORSO
> > effector_offset =
> > almath.Transform(self.motion.getTransform(effector, frame, False))
> > effector_init_3d_position = almath.position3DFromTransform(
> > effector_offset)
> >
> > target_3d_position = almath.Position3D(target_position)
> > move_3d = target_3d_position - effector_init_3d_position
> > moveTransform = almath.Transform.fromPosition(move_3d.x,
> > move_3d.y, move_3d.z)
> > target_transformer_list = list(moveTransform.toVector())
> > times = [2.0]
> > axis_mask_list = motion.AXIS_MASK_VEL
> > self.motion.transformInterpolations(effector, frame,
> > target_transformer_list, axis_mask_list, times).
> >
> > src:
> http://doc.aldebaran.com/1-14/dev/python/examples/almath/index.html?highlight=offset
> > This question is specific to NAO environment but in general how to go
> > about this task? what is a most common algorithm used in this case? Do
> > I have to also get the side of the object in order to know where
> > exactly the arms should be placed?
> > ___
> > Tutor maillist - tu...@python.org
> > To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
>
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Re: Decoding bytes to text strings in Python 2

[Chris Angelico via Python-list]

On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 at 03:28, Rayner Lucas via Python-list
 wrote:
> I'm curious about something I've encountered while updating a very old
> Tk app (originally written in Python 1, but I've ported it to Python 2
> as a first step towards getting it running on modern systems).
>
> I am using Python 2.7.18 on a Windows 10 system. If there's any other
> relevant information I should provide please let me know.

Unfortunately, you're running into one of the most annoying problems
from Python 2 and Windows: "narrow builds". You don't actually have
proper Unicode support. You have a broken implementation that works
for UCS-2 but doesn't actually support astral characters.

If you switch to a Linux system, it should work correctly, and you'll
be able to migrate the rest of the way onto Python 3. Once you achieve
that, you'll be able to operate on Windows or Linux equivalently,
since Python 3 solved this problem. At least, I *think* it will; my
current system has a Python 2 installed, but doesn't have tkinter
(because I never bothered to install it), and it's no longer available
from the upstream Debian repos, so I only tested it in the console.
But the decoding certainly worked.

ChrisA
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Re: Timezone in HH:MM Format

[Ivan "Rambius" Ivanov via Python-list]

Thank you all for your responses!

On Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 9:54 PM Jon Ribbens via Python-list
 wrote:
>
> datetime.now(ZoneInfo("America/New_York")).isoformat()

Both .isoformat() and "%:z" work.


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Re: Timezone in HH:MM Format

[Jon Ribbens via Python-list]

On 2024-06-18, Ivan "Rambius" Ivanov  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> How can I convert a date, usually datetime.now(), into a format where
> the timezone is in hours:minutes format. I was able to get that format
> in shell:
>
> $ date +%Y-%m-%dT%H:%M:%S%:z
> 2024-06-18T19:24:09-04:00
>
> The closest I got in python is
>
> from datetime import datetime
> from zoneinfo import ZoneInfo
>
> s = datetime.strftime(datetime.now(ZoneInfo("America/New_York")),
> "%Y-%m-%dT%H:%M:%S%z")
> print(s)
>
> This prints the same as the shell command above except the last column:
> 2024-06-18T19:28:56-0400
>
> Any help will be appreciated.

datetime.now(ZoneInfo("America/New_York")).isoformat()
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Re: Timezone in HH:MM Format

[MRAB via Python-list]

On 2024-06-19 00:32, Ivan "Rambius" Ivanov via Python-list wrote:

Hello,

How can I convert a date, usually datetime.now(), into a format where
the timezone is in hours:minutes format. I was able to get that format
in shell:

$ date +%Y-%m-%dT%H:%M:%S%:z
2024-06-18T19:24:09-04:00

The closest I got in python is

from datetime import datetime
from zoneinfo import ZoneInfo

s = datetime.strftime(datetime.now(ZoneInfo("America/New_York")),
"%Y-%m-%dT%H:%M:%S%z")
print(s)

This prints the same as the shell command above except the last column:
2024-06-18T19:28:56-0400

Starting from Python 3.12, you can use "%:z" in the format string. For 
earlier versions of Python, you need to do some string slicing.

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Re: in Python: (101 102 103 201 202 203 301 302 303 401 402 403 )

[Peter J. Holzer via Python-list]

On 2024-06-14 06:10:06 -, candycanearter07 via Python-list wrote:
> Phil Carmody  wrote at 12:01 this Thursday (GMT):
> > I'd say you can't beat the verbosity, or lack thereof of just plain 
> > zsh/bash:
> >   $ echo {1,2,3,4}0{1,2,3}
> >   101 102 103 201 202 203 301 302 303 401 402 403
> 
> 
> I /think/ you can replace it with {1...4} and {1...3}? I know there is
> some syntax for "range of numbers" but I can't remember it exactly.

Only two dots, not three:

% echo {1..4}0{1..3}
101 102 103 201 202 203 301 302 303 401 402 403

hp

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|_|_) ||
| |   | h...@hjp.at |-- Charles Stross, "Creative writing
__/   | http://www.hjp.at/ |   challenge!"


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Re: Anonymous email users

[Grant Edwards via Python-list]

On 2024-06-18, Mats Wichmann via Python-list  wrote:
> On 6/17/24 17:51, dn via Python-list wrote:
>
>> +1
>> 
>> The "public" part is not to embarrass posters, but recognition that 
>> there are likely other people 'out there' (or arriving in-future if they 
>> care to read the archives) experiencing a similar problem. (hence need 
>> for descriptive Subject lines - isn't the most difficult task in 
>> programming 'choosing names'?)
>
> well, one of two, along with cache invalidation and off-by-one errors 
> (according to the wags).
>
> I do agree with this, but mailman (2) archives aren't particularly 
> useful for searching, as they're organized in monthly chunks and you 
> have to keep clicking around - this list doesn't have a search engine as 
> it's not converted to be one of the mailman 3 lists.

Gmane used to have a usable search feature (along with a decent
threaded web UI to read the arhives), but that got lost during the
great gmane server/domain upheaval of 2016 (or whenever that was). I
still miss it.

--
Grant

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Re: Anonymous email users

[Mats Wichmann via Python-list]

On 6/17/24 17:51, dn via Python-list wrote:


+1

The "public" part is not to embarrass posters, but recognition that 
there are likely other people 'out there' (or arriving in-future if they 
care to read the archives) experiencing a similar problem. (hence need 
for descriptive Subject lines - isn't the most difficult task in 
programming 'choosing names'?)


well, one of two, along with cache invalidation and off-by-one errors 
(according to the wags).


I do agree with this, but mailman (2) archives aren't particularly 
useful for searching, as they're organized in monthly chunks and you 
have to keep clicking around - this list doesn't have a search engine as 
it's not converted to be one of the mailman 3 lists.


There are supposed to be some search engine incantations to make this 
better. I find this one works, though I can never actually remember it 
and have to go hunting again each time... picking a random-ish subject 
line from this list in the past:


site:mail.python.org inurl:Python-list multiplication

I don't know that we publicise such methods (there are probably others).

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Re: win32clipboard writing to clipboard on Windows 11

[Eryk Sun via Python-list]

On Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 2:19 AM Eryk Sun  wrote:
>
>
> def set_clipboard_text(text):
> hMem = global_alloc_text(text)
> try:
> win32clipboard.SetClipboardData(win32clipboard.CF_UNICODETEXT,
> hMem)
> # Now the system owns the global memory.
> except:
> kernel32.GlobalFree(hMem)

Oops, that suppresses the exception. Fixed:

def set_clipboard_text(text):
hMem = global_alloc_from_text(text)
try:
win32clipboard.SetClipboardData(win32clipboard.CF_UNICODETEXT,
hMem)
# Now the system owns the global memory.
except:
kernel32.GlobalFree(hMem)
raise
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Re: win32clipboard writing to clipboard on Windows 11

[Eryk Sun via Python-list]

On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 8:36 PM MRAB via Python-list
 wrote:
> On 2024-06-17 20:27, Rob Cliffe via Python-list wrote:
>
> > SetClipboardData(CF_UNICODETEXT, "0")
> > CloseClipboard()

win32clipboard.SetClipboardData() first tries to covert the second
argument as an integer handle to global memory, which gets passed to
WinAPI SetClipboardData(). The integer conversion is basically via
int(). With int("0"), it's passing a NULL handle value, which
instructs the window manager to query the data from the window that
was associated via OpenClipboard(), if any. Since no memory handle is
passed in this case, SetClipboardData() returns NULL.
win32clipboard.SetClipboardData() misinterprets this as failure and
raises an exception for whatever random error code is currently set in
the thread's last error value. On the other hand, for a numeric text
string with a nonzero value, such as "123",
win32clipboard.SetClipboardData() will raise an exception for the
error code ERROR_INVALID_HANDLE (6), unless the integer value happens
to be a valid global memory handle value.

I recommend just using win32clipboard.SetClipboardText(). Otherwise I
don't see an easy workaround given the peculiar design of
win32clipboard.SetClipboardData(). You'd have to manually allocate a
block of global memory, copy the numeric text string into it, and pass
the global memory handle to win32clipboard.SetClipboardData(). For
example:

import ctypes
import win32clipboard
from ctypes import wintypes

kernel32 = ctypes.WinDLL('kernel32', use_last_error=True)

GMEM_MOVEABLE = 0x0002

kernel32.GlobalAlloc.restype = wintypes.HGLOBAL
kernel32.GlobalFree.argtypes = (wintypes.HGLOBAL,)
kernel32.GlobalLock.restype = wintypes.LPVOID
kernel32.GlobalLock.argtypes = (wintypes.HGLOBAL,)
kernel32.GlobalUnlock.argtypes = (wintypes.HGLOBAL,)

def global_alloc_text(text):
array_t = ctypes.c_wchar * (len(text) + 1)
hMem = kernel32.GlobalAlloc(GMEM_MOVEABLE, ctypes.sizeof(array_t))
if not hMem:
raise ctypes.WinError(ctypes.get_last_error())
pMem = kernel32.GlobalLock(hMem)
try:
try:
array_t.from_address(pMem).value = text
finally:
kernel32.GlobalUnlock(hMem)
except:
kernel32.GlobalFree(hMem)
raise
return hMem

def set_clipboard_text(text):
hMem = global_alloc_text(text)
try:
win32clipboard.SetClipboardData(win32clipboard.CF_UNICODETEXT,
hMem)
# Now the system owns the global memory.
except:
kernel32.GlobalFree(hMem)
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Re: win32clipboard writing to clipboard on Windows 11

[Thomas Passin via Python-list]

On 6/17/2024 9:30 PM, MRAB via Python-list wrote:

On 2024-06-17 20:27, Rob Cliffe via Python-list wrote:

Recently I acquired a new laptop running WIndows 11; my previous one
uses WIndows 10.  I encountered a strange problem:
I am using the win32clipboard backage (part of pywin32), and when I use
SetClipboardData() to write text which consists ***entirely of digits***
to the clipboard, I either get an error (not always the same error
message) or a program crash.  The problem does not appear if I use
SetClipboardText() instead.  The problem does not occur on my old
machine (where I used the feature extensively).

Sample program:

from win32clipboard import *
OpenClipboard()
SetClipboardData(CF_UNICODETEXT, "A")
SetClipboardData(CF_UNICODETEXT, "A0")
SetClipboardData(CF_UNICODETEXT, "0A")
SetClipboardText("0", CF_UNICODETEXT)
print("OK so far")
SetClipboardData(CF_UNICODETEXT, "0")
CloseClipboard()

Sample output:

OK so far
Traceback (most recent call last):
    File "C:\TEST*.PY", line 8, in 
      SetClipboardData(CF_UNICODETEXT, "0")
pywintypes.error: (0, 'SetClipboardData', 'No error message is 
available')


Can anyone shed light on this?
Best wishes
Rob Cliffe


I tried it on Windows 10 and got this:

 >>> from win32clipboard import *
 >>> OpenClipboard()
 >>> SetClipboardData(CF_UNICODETEXT, "A")
1830508101640
 >>> CloseClipboard()
 >>> OpenClipboard()
 >>> SetClipboardData(CF_UNICODETEXT, "0")
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "", line 1, in 
pywintypes.error: (6, 'SetClipboardData', 'The handle is invalid.')
 >>> CloseClipboard()

It looks like it's something to memory ownership:

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1264137/how-to-copy-string-to-clipboard-in-c

If you're putting text on the clipboard, why not just use 
SetClipboardText()? That's what I do.


If you can make a change, and you only need to work with text on the 
clipboard, you could change to use pyperclip.  It also works on Linux, 
if you might care about that in the future.  It's available as a pip 
install. It's easier to use than the win32 approach.

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Re: win32clipboard writing to clipboard on Windows 11

[MRAB via Python-list]

On 2024-06-17 20:27, Rob Cliffe via Python-list wrote:

Recently I acquired a new laptop running WIndows 11; my previous one
uses WIndows 10.  I encountered a strange problem:
I am using the win32clipboard backage (part of pywin32), and when I use
SetClipboardData() to write text which consists ***entirely of digits***
to the clipboard, I either get an error (not always the same error
message) or a program crash.  The problem does not appear if I use
SetClipboardText() instead.  The problem does not occur on my old
machine (where I used the feature extensively).

Sample program:

from win32clipboard import *
OpenClipboard()
SetClipboardData(CF_UNICODETEXT, "A")
SetClipboardData(CF_UNICODETEXT, "A0")
SetClipboardData(CF_UNICODETEXT, "0A")
SetClipboardText("0", CF_UNICODETEXT)
print("OK so far")
SetClipboardData(CF_UNICODETEXT, "0")
CloseClipboard()

Sample output:

OK so far
Traceback (most recent call last):
    File "C:\TEST*.PY", line 8, in 
      SetClipboardData(CF_UNICODETEXT, "0")
pywintypes.error: (0, 'SetClipboardData', 'No error message is available')

Can anyone shed light on this?
Best wishes
Rob Cliffe


I tried it on Windows 10 and got this:

>>> from win32clipboard import *
>>> OpenClipboard()
>>> SetClipboardData(CF_UNICODETEXT, "A")
1830508101640
>>> CloseClipboard()
>>> OpenClipboard()
>>> SetClipboardData(CF_UNICODETEXT, "0")
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "", line 1, in 
pywintypes.error: (6, 'SetClipboardData', 'The handle is invalid.')
>>> CloseClipboard()

It looks like it's something to memory ownership:

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1264137/how-to-copy-string-to-clipboard-in-c

If you're putting text on the clipboard, why not just use 
SetClipboardText()? That's what I do.

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Re: Anonymous email users

[dn via Python-list]

On 18/06/24 05:29, Roel Schroeven via Python-list wrote:

AVI GROSS via Python-list schreef op 17/06/2024 om 17:03:
I simply am thinking that people who do not allow me to easily reply 
to them

directly, should be ignored by me and not get my cooperation that way.
FWIW, personally I (mostly) don't see the point of replying to people 
personally. To me a public mailing list is much like any public forum, 
where my expectation is that conversations happen in public. To me it 
always feels weird when I get a personal reply when I make a public post 
in a mailing list. I mostly ignore those, unless there's really 
something in it that's best kept out of the public. Sometimes people 
write long mails with wandering thoughts only loosely related to the 
topic at hand directly to me instead of to the whole list. My take is: 
if it's not on-topic enough for the list, it's not on-topic enough for 
me either. Not that it bothers me *that* much; I just ignore those. It's 
very well possible that's just me, and that other people have different 
expectations.


+1

The "public" part is not to embarrass posters, but recognition that 
there are likely other people 'out there' (or arriving in-future if they 
care to read the archives) experiencing a similar problem. (hence need 
for descriptive Subject lines - isn't the most difficult task in 
programming 'choosing names'?)


Yes, like @Avi, I have been known to contact folk directly. However, 
such for personal purposes - as distinct from the list, and possibly 
subjects OT for the list.


When contacted by others off-list, I play it by ear - ignore, personal, 
or post response on-list. (some lists/email-clients do seem to prefer 
personal replies, even when incoming message is from a list - so easy 
accident.)


The Delete-key is your friend!

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RE: Anonymous email users

[AVI GROSS via Python-list]

It seems clear we have people on mailing lists that see it as a purely
public forum, and that is fine for them.

I have found plenty of times I choose not to continue in public and waste
time for people as in this reply on a topic I raised and now will move away
from.

I have in the past, for example, offered to help people and participate in
aspects of their project that do not need to be viewed here, such as helping
them find out how to adjust their graphical output to better fit their
needs. Or, if someone mentions me negatively, I prefer not always replying
in public to perhaps see if I misunderstood something or was misunderstood. 

I have lots of people I "met" in places like this that I keep in touch with
privately and see that as a plus. For those who just want a business-like
experience, no problem. For those who choose levels of anonymity or don't
like being contacted, again, fine for them.

The reality is that I have found people who show up in forums looking almost
legit but actually are not at all who they appear or claim to be even when
they have valid email addresses like mrsp...@gmail.com or even use names of
real people you can search for on the internet but who are not actually the
ones they may even claim.

My message was not to say what people could not do, but to point out they
may be missing out on what some see as collateral opportunities. The people
I have helped privately would not have received it had they only
participated through the group and I would not have received some chances to
learn if I could not ask questions in private that clearly did not fit the
purpose of the group.

So, I am outa this conversation IN PUBLIC. LOL!

-Original Message-
From: Python-list  On
Behalf Of Grant Edwards via Python-list
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2024 5:08 PM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: Anonymous email users

On 2024-06-17, Roel Schroeven via Python-list 
wrote:

> FWIW, personally I (mostly) don't see the point of replying to people 
> personally. To me a public mailing list is much like any public forum, 
> where my expectation is that conversations happen in public. To me it 
> always feels weird when I get a personal reply when I make a public post 
> in a mailing list. I mostly ignore those, unless there's really 
> something in it that's best kept out of the public.

My sentiments exactly. I generally don't even read replies that get
mailed to me. They almost always seem to be copies of replies that
were also posted to the mailing list (which I read using an NNTP
client pointed at news.gmane.io).

--
Grant
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Re: Anonymous email users

[Grant Edwards via Python-list]

On 2024-06-17, Roel Schroeven via Python-list  wrote:

> FWIW, personally I (mostly) don't see the point of replying to people 
> personally. To me a public mailing list is much like any public forum, 
> where my expectation is that conversations happen in public. To me it 
> always feels weird when I get a personal reply when I make a public post 
> in a mailing list. I mostly ignore those, unless there's really 
> something in it that's best kept out of the public.

My sentiments exactly. I generally don't even read replies that get
mailed to me. They almost always seem to be copies of replies that
were also posted to the mailing list (which I read using an NNTP
client pointed at news.gmane.io).

--
Grant
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Re: Anonymous email users

[Roel Schroeven via Python-list]

AVI GROSS via Python-list schreef op 17/06/2024 om 17:03:

I simply am thinking that people who do not allow me to easily reply to them
directly, should be ignored by me and not get my cooperation that way.
FWIW, personally I (mostly) don't see the point of replying to people 
personally. To me a public mailing list is much like any public forum, 
where my expectation is that conversations happen in public. To me it 
always feels weird when I get a personal reply when I make a public post 
in a mailing list. I mostly ignore those, unless there's really 
something in it that's best kept out of the public. Sometimes people 
write long mails with wandering thoughts only loosely related to the 
topic at hand directly to me instead of to the whole list. My take is: 
if it's not on-topic enough for the list, it's not on-topic enough for 
me either. Not that it bothers me *that* much; I just ignore those. It's 
very well possible that's just me, and that other people have different 
expectations.


But I don't go hiding my email address, that's a whole different kettle.

--
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Beauty and terror
Just keep going
No feeling is final"
-- Rainer Maria Rilke

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RE: Anonymous email users

[AVI GROSS via Python-list]

Thanks, Marco, for explaining.

I, personally, have no interest in finding out who people are in this case.
I simply am thinking that people who do not allow me to easily reply to them
directly, should be ignored by me and not get my cooperation that way.

I do understand reasons people use fake ID but note others have put their
email address in their signature, perhaps slightly disguised as in:

Myname=ereweon.com

Or 

myn...@unspecified.tb s/unspecified.tb/yahoo.com/

It may be the gateway or other records can find them if they are nasty, but
for now, it is just an observation that it seems the discussions with people
in the email list are more useful to me.

-Original Message-
From: Python-list  On
Behalf Of Marco Moock via Python-list
Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2024 2:03 AM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: Anonymous email users

On 15.06.2024 um 10:30 Uhr dn wrote:

> These mailing-lists all run under the Python Code of Conduct.
> 
> This also effects a conundrum. Firstly, that someone abusing others
> (for example) shall be held responsible. Secondly, that in order to
> hold someone responsible, he/she/... must be identifiable.

The mailing list has a Usenet gateway

Those users use the Usenet to post.
Check the Injection-Info header for the address of the news server
operator. He can identify the account that posted it.

-- 
kind regards
Marco

Send spam to 1718440236mu...@cartoonies.org

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Re: Anonymous email users

[Marco Moock via Python-list]

On 15.06.2024 um 10:30 Uhr dn wrote:

> These mailing-lists all run under the Python Code of Conduct.
> 
> This also effects a conundrum. Firstly, that someone abusing others
> (for example) shall be held responsible. Secondly, that in order to
> hold someone responsible, he/she/... must be identifiable.

The mailing list has a Usenet gateway

Those users use the Usenet to post.
Check the Injection-Info header for the address of the news server
operator. He can identify the account that posted it.

-- 
kind regards
Marco

Send spam to 1718440236mu...@cartoonies.org

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Re: Suggested python feature: allowing except in context maneger

[j via Python-list]

On 2024-06-13 23:49, Cameron Simpson via Python-list wrote:
On 13Jun2024 19:44, dieter.mau...@online.de  
wrote:

Why not use:
```
try:
 with open()...
   ...
except FileNotFoundError:
 ...
```


This is exactly what the OP was expressing dissatisfaction with.

I'm -1 on the idea myself - not every combination of things needs 
additional syntactic support, and doing stuff like merging an `except` 
with a `wtih` is bound to introduce some weird corner case, 
complicating its semantics.


I agree. If python allowed statement lambdas you could write what you 
want above within the language (albeit a bit clumsily). It's very handy.


jan



Cheers,
Cameron Simpson 

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Re: Suggested python feature: allowing except in context maneger

[Albert-Jan Roskam via Python-list]

 The example exception is not what bothers me. The syntax change is
 nowhere near as useful as `with` and context managers. They provide an
 excellent idiom for resource usage and release.

 Your suggestion complicates the `with` statement and brings only a tiny
 indentation reduction over the `with`-inside-`try` idiom. It brings no
 semantic changes or new features.

   
   I also don't see the added value. If you desperately want to get rid of an
   indentation level, you could use an except
   hook. https://docs.python.org/3/library/sys.html#sys.excepthook
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Re: Suggested python feature: allowing except in context maneger

[Cameron Simpson via Python-list]

On 14Jun2024 09:07, Yair Eshel  wrote:

Cameron, I'm not really sure I got your point. I've used the "file not
found" exception as an example for a behavior typical on context managers.
This could be a failure to connect to DB, or threads. It also applies to
any kind of possible exception, whether cased by the context manager itself
or the lines inside it. Long story short, this syntax change is as useful
as context managers are


The example exception is not what bothers me. The syntax change is 
nowhere near as useful as `with` and context managers. They provide an 
excellent idiom for resource usage and release.


Your suggestion complicates the `with` statement and brings only a tiny 
indentation reduction over the `with`-inside-`try` idiom. It brings no 
semantic changes or new features.


That is why I'm -1: the benefit is triviailly small to my eye.
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Re: Anonymous email users

[Cameron Simpson via Python-list]

On 14Jun2024 18:00, avi.e.gr...@gmail.com  wrote:

I notice that in some recent discussions, we have users who cannot be
replied to directly as their email addresses are not valid ones, and I
believe on purpose. Examples in the thread I was going to reply to are:

 henha...@devnull.tb

[...]
I know some here suggest that we only reply to the wider community and 
they

have a point. But I think there is a role for having some conversations
offline and especially when they are not likely to be wanted, or even
tolerated, by many in the community.

Using such fake or invalid emails makes it hard to answer the person
directly or perhaps politely ask them for more info on their request or
discuss unrelated common interests. Worse, when I reply, unless I use
reply-all, my mailer sends to them futilely. When I do the reply-all, I have
to edit out their name or get a rejection.


I often reply-all (meaning to the list and to the author). And edit the 
headers (frankly, often just to discard anything @gmail.com which has 
very stupid spam poolicies).  If I miss an @invalid.com or whatever, 
then whoops.


If I want to reply directly (eg for some kind of feedback rather than a 
list type reply) and they've got a bogus address, well then I don't.  
Supposedly my reply would be of benefit for them or I shouldn't be doing 
it, so their loss. But equally, if they don't want personal off-list 
contact, they've expressed their preference. I should respect that.


Plenty of people have reasons to post anonymously, even to a list like 
this one. Just assume they've got their reasons and move on.

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Re: Anonymous email users

[Chris Angelico via Python-list]

On Sat, 15 Jun 2024 at 08:32, dn via Python-list  wrote:
> These mailing-lists all run under the Python Code of Conduct.
>

The newsgroup, however, is not. Which means that anyone who posts on
the newsgroup is subject to no such restrictions - and that might
explain the, shall we say, quite different signal-to-noise ratio of
newsgroup posters compared to mailing list posters.

ChrisA
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Re: Anonymous email users

[dn via Python-list]

On 15/06/24 10:00, AVI GROSS via Python-list wrote:

I notice that in some recent discussions, we have users who cannot be
replied to directly as their email addresses are not valid ones, and I
believe on purpose. Examples in the thread I was going to reply to are:

...

It's an interesting conundrum. There are good reasons and nefarious, for 
such behavior.


Some have questioned my behavior in similar regard - asking why I use 
initials (also used IRL). It is because my first name "David" is/was 
very popular. At a meeting this week there were three of us. Thus, 
"David", "Dave", and "dn" was necessary to distinguish between us.



These mailing-lists all run under the Python Code of Conduct.

This also effects a conundrum. Firstly, that someone abusing others (for 
example) shall be held responsible. Secondly, that in order to hold 
someone responsible, he/she/... must be identifiable.



Personal opinion: if someone is asked a 
question/clarification/sample-code, particularly as a response to their 
own OP, and does not answer; this is at the least rude, and thus 
disrespectful, or at worst grounds for not bothering with them again - 
hardly a 'community' attitude!


--
Regards,
=dn
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Re: in Python: (101 102 103 201 202 203 301 302 303 401 402 403 )

[candycanearter07 via Python-list]

Phil Carmody  wrote at 12:01 this Thursday (GMT):
> Paul Rubin  writes:
>> HenHanna  writes:
>>> is there another (simple) way to write this?
>>
>> Yes, but please consider doing these easy exercises yourself instead of
>> fobbing them onto other people.
>
> Hen's probably just an experimental GPT. You, with your limited
> resources, can never train it.
>
> I'd say you can't beat the verbosity, or lack thereof of just plain zsh/bash:
>   $ echo {1,2,3,4}0{1,2,3}
>   101 102 103 201 202 203 301 302 303 401 402 403
>
> Phil


I /think/ you can replace it with {1...4} and {1...3}? I know there is
some syntax for "range of numbers" but I can't remember it exactly.
-- 
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Re: Suggested python feature: allowing except in context maneger

[Yair Eshel via Python-list]

Cameron, I'm not really sure I got your point. I've used the "file not
found" exception as an example for a behavior typical on context managers.
This could be a failure to connect to DB, or threads. It also applies to
any kind of possible exception, whether cased by the context manager itself
or the lines inside it. Long story short, this syntax change is as useful
as context managers are

On Fri, 14 Jun 2024, 01:49 Cameron Simpson,  wrote:

> On 13Jun2024 19:44, dieter.mau...@online.de 
> wrote:
> >Why not use:
> >```
> >try:
> >  with open()...
> >...
> >except FileNotFoundError:
> >  ...
> >```
>
> This is exactly what the OP was expressing dissatisfaction with.
>
> I'm -1 on the idea myself - not every combination of things needs
> additional syntactic support, and doing stuff like merging an `except`
> with a `wtih` is bound to introduce some weird corner case, complicating
> its semantics.
>
> Cheers,
> Cameron Simpson 
>
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Re: Suggested python feature: allowing except in context maneger

[Cameron Simpson via Python-list]

On 13Jun2024 19:44, dieter.mau...@online.de  wrote:

Why not use:
```
try:
 with open()...
   ...
except FileNotFoundError:
 ...
```


This is exactly what the OP was expressing dissatisfaction with.

I'm -1 on the idea myself - not every combination of things needs 
additional syntactic support, and doing stuff like merging an `except` 
with a `wtih` is bound to introduce some weird corner case, complicating 
its semantics.


Cheers,
Cameron Simpson 
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Re: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

[Ethan Furman via Python-list]

Hey, everyone!

I believe the original question has been answered, and tempers seem to be flaring in sub-threads, so let's call this 
thread done and move on to other interesting topics.


Thank you for your support!

--
~Ethan~
Moderator
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Re: Suggested python feature: allowing except in context maneger

[Barry Scott via Python-list]

> On 13 Jun 2024, at 11:01, Yair Eshel via Python-list  
> wrote:
> 
> I read this is a good place to give some suggestions for features in
> python.

Best place these days is to raise an idea on https://discuss.python.org/

Beware that this idea has come up in the past and was rejected.

Barry

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Re: in Python: (101 102 103 201 202 203 301 302 303 401 402 403 )

[Phil Carmody via Python-list]

Paul Rubin  writes:
> HenHanna  writes:
>> is there another (simple) way to write this?
>
> Yes, but please consider doing these easy exercises yourself instead of
> fobbing them onto other people.

Hen's probably just an experimental GPT. You, with your limited
resources, can never train it.

I'd say you can't beat the verbosity, or lack thereof of just plain zsh/bash:
  $ echo {1,2,3,4}0{1,2,3}
  101 102 103 201 202 203 301 302 303 401 402 403

Phil
-- 
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gained some understanding of the world in which we live. As such, we can cast
aside childish remnants from the dawn of our civilization.
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Re: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

[Chris Green via Python-list]

Chris Angelico  wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 at 10:58,  wrote:
> >
> > Chris,
> >
> > You seem to have perceived an insult that I remain unaware of.
> 
> If you're not aware that you're saying this, then don't say it.
> 
Er, um, that really makes no sense! :-)

How can one not say something that one isn't aware of saying?

-- 
Chris Green
·
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Re: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

[Chris Angelico via Python-list]

On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 at 10:58,  wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> You seem to have perceived an insult that I remain unaware of.

If you're not aware that you're saying this, then don't say it.

> I looked up FUD and sharply disagree with suggestions I am trying to somehow
> cause Fear, Uncertainty or Doubt. I simply asked if another such update ...
> as a hypothetical. Had I asked what impact Quantum Computers might have on
> existing languages, would that also be FUD, or just a speculation in a
> discussion.

What DID you intend by your comments? Were you trying to imply that
work spent upgrading to Python 3 would have to be redone any day now
when this hypothetical massively-incompatible Python 4 is released? Or
what? What WERE you trying to say?

If you don't understand how damaging it can be to say that sort of
thing, **don't say it**. Otherwise, expect responses like this.

I *detest* the attitude that you can make vague disparaging comments
and then hide behind claims that you had no idea how damaging you were
being.

ChrisA
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RE: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

[AVI GROSS via Python-list]

Chris,

You seem to have perceived an insult that I remain unaware of.

I have no special knowledge, like you do, of plans made for changes to the
pthon language and implementation.

I was asking a hypothetical question about what some users would do if
python came out with a newer major version. I have seen people often wait
until some software that tries to get updated too frequently makes multiple
updates and then finally give in and skip the intermediates.

I wondered if something like a version 4.0 might get people still using
version 2 might finally come around and also if some version 3 users would
not be thrilled with something not stable enough.

I have no favorite ideas here and can see a balance between adding features
or fixing flaws and on the other side, not discomfiting many and especially
when in many cases, the original people who wrote software are no longer
there nor budgets to pay for changes.

I looked up FUD and sharply disagree with suggestions I am trying to somehow
cause Fear, Uncertainty or Doubt. I simply asked if another such update ...
as a hypothetical. Had I asked what impact Quantum Computers might have on
existing languages, would that also be FUD, or just a speculation in a
discussion.

Either way, I am taking any further discussion along these lines offline and
will not continue here.

-Original Message-
From: Python-list  On
Behalf Of Chris Angelico via Python-list
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2024 7:23 PM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 at 09:20,  wrote:
> My point was that version 4 COULD HAPPEN one day and I meant INCOMPATIBLE
> version not 4. Obviously we can make a version 4 that is not incompatible
> too.

This is still FUD. Back your words with something, or stop trying to
imply that there's another incompatible change just around the corner.

Do you realise how insulting you are being to the developers of Python
by these implications?

ChrisA
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Re: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

[Chris Angelico via Python-list]

On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 at 09:20,  wrote:
> My point was that version 4 COULD HAPPEN one day and I meant INCOMPATIBLE
> version not 4. Obviously we can make a version 4 that is not incompatible
> too.

This is still FUD. Back your words with something, or stop trying to
imply that there's another incompatible change just around the corner.

Do you realise how insulting you are being to the developers of Python
by these implications?

ChrisA
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RE: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

[AVI GROSS via Python-list]

Chris,

I don't want to get off message and debate whether my "jokes" are jokes, let
alone funny. Obviously, they often aren't.

What I meant by joking here does seem relevant. As the years pass, there can
come a time when it is suggested that a language (any language including
python) is no longer useful to many in the community as it has not kept up
with changes in the industry or whatever. Suggestions are made for changes
and additions that that not be backward compatible. They can be somewhat
minor things like new keywords that have not been reserved and where
programs that exist might be scanned for use of that keyword, and you simply
replace those names with was_keyword or something and the programs will
generally  run.  But there can be major changes too and there can be a
choice to just create a new language that has some similarities to python 3
(or PERL version whatever) or just name it the same but a version higher
much like has happened.

My point was that version 4 COULD HAPPEN one day and I meant INCOMPATIBLE
version not 4. Obviously we can make a version 4 that is not incompatible
too.

I have experience in other languages where disconnects happen at various
levels. Some functions in a collection such as a package are removed perhaps
to replace them with a more abstract version that does much more. Do you
remove the old one immediately or do you make a new name for the new one and
perhaps in some way mark the old one for deprecation with a pointer to the
new one to be used as soon as reasonable? I have seen many approaches. I
have seen entire packages yanked. I have seen parts that used to be in the
distribution as if built-in and then taken out and vice versa.

The point is you do not need a 4.0 to be incompatible. The incompatibility,
or need to change, can happen anytime when you are importing things like
numpy which is released whenever they want to and is not part of the python
distribution. Also, as we have seen at times, other modules you may have
imported, in some languages, can mask names you are using in your program
that you may not even be aware are there. Much can go wrong with software
and keeping current can also give you problems when something released may
have inadvertent changes or bugs.

So much of our code is voluntary and as noted earlier, some python
variants/distributions simply may not have anyone interested in keeping them
up to date. You as a user, take your chances.


-Original Message-
From: Python-list  On
Behalf Of Chris Angelico via Python-list
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2024 5:52 PM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 at 07:36,  wrote:
> But if the goal was to deprecate python 2 and in some sense phase it out,
it
> is perhaps not working well for some. Frankly, issuing so many updates
like
> 2.7 and including backporting of new features has helped make it possible
to
> delay any upgrade.

The goal was to improve Python. I don't think anyone's ever tried to
"kill off" Python 2 - not in the sense of stopping people from using
it - but there haven't been any changes, not even security fixes, in
over four years.

> And, yes, I was KIDDING about python 4. I am simply suggesting that there
> may well be a time that another shift happens that may require another
> effort to get people on board a new and perhaps incompatible setup.

Kidding, eh? It sure sounded like you were trying to imply that there
would inevitably be another major breaking change. It definitely
smelled like FUD.

Maybe your jokes just aren't funny.

ChrisA
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Re: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

[Oscar Benjamin via Python-list]

On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 at 23:52, Greg Ewing via Python-list
 wrote:
> On 13/06/24 10:09 am, Chris Angelico wrote:
>  > So if anyone
>  > actually does need to use pip with Python 2.7, they probably need to
>  > set up a local server
>
> You should also be able to download a .tar.gz from PyPI and use pip
> to install that. Although you'll have to track down the dependencies
> yourself in that case.

It is almost certainly better to download the wheel (.whl) file rather
than the sdist (.tar.gz) file. Building NumPy from source needs not
just compilers etc but also you first need to build/install a BLAS
library.

--
Oscar
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Re: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

[Chris Angelico via Python-list]

On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 at 08:46, Oscar Benjamin via Python-list
 wrote:
> I don't know much about SSL and related networking things especially
> on Windows. I would be surprised if pip on old Python can't install
> from current PyPI though. I imagine that something strange has
> happened like a new version of pip running on an old version of Python
> or old Python on new OS (or old PyCharm...).
>
> There is no problem using Python 2.7 with pip and PyPI on this Linux
> machine but I guess it has a newer SSL library provided by the OS:

Sadly, I would NOT be surprised if this is indeed a problem on
Windows. You're exactly right - on Linux, it can use a newer SSL
library from the OS. Of course, this does assume that you've updated
your OS, which is far from a guarantee, but since this has security
implications there's a good chance you can update it while retaining a
legacy system.

On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 at 08:51, Greg Ewing via Python-list
 wrote:
> On 13/06/24 10:09 am, Chris Angelico wrote:
>  > So if anyone
>  > actually does need to use pip with Python 2.7, they probably need to
>  > set up a local server
>
> You should also be able to download a .tar.gz from PyPI and use pip
> to install that. Although you'll have to track down the dependencies
> yourself in that case.

Also a possibility; in my opinion, losing dependency management is too
big a cost, so I would be inclined to set up a local server. But then,
I would be using a newer SSL library and not have the problem in the
first place.

ChrisA
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Re: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

[Greg Ewing via Python-list]

On 13/06/24 4:31 am, avi.e.gr...@gmail.com wrote:

It seems Microsoft is having a problem where something lik 2/3 of Windows
users have not upgraded from Windows 10 after many years


At least Python 3 is a clear improvement over Python 2 in many ways.
Whereas the only thing Microsoft seems to have done with Windows in
recent times is change it in ways that nobody wants, so there is
understandable resistance to upgrading even if it's possible.

On 13/06/24 10:09 am, Chris Angelico wrote:
> So if anyone
> actually does need to use pip with Python 2.7, they probably need to
> set up a local server

You should also be able to download a .tar.gz from PyPI and use pip
to install that. Although you'll have to track down the dependencies
yourself in that case.

--
Greg
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Re: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

[Oscar Benjamin via Python-list]

On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 at 23:11, Chris Angelico via Python-list
 wrote:
>
> On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 at 07:57, Oscar Benjamin via Python-list
>  wrote:
> > They are seeing a warning that explicitly says "You can upgrade to a
> > newer version of Python to solve this". I don't know whether that SSL
> > warning is directly connected to pip not finding any versions of numpy
> > but with the available information so far that seems like the first
> > thing to consider.
>
> I think it is; AIUI, with an ancient SSL library, pip is unable to
> download packages safely from the current pypi server. So if anyone
> actually does need to use pip with Python 2.7, they probably need to
> set up a local server, using older encryption protocols (which should
> therefore NOT be made accessible to the internet). Since pip can't
> contact the upstream pypi, there's no available numpy for it to
> install.

I don't know much about SSL and related networking things especially
on Windows. I would be surprised if pip on old Python can't install
from current PyPI though. I imagine that something strange has
happened like a new version of pip running on an old version of Python
or old Python on new OS (or old PyCharm...).

There is no problem using Python 2.7 with pip and PyPI on this Linux
machine but I guess it has a newer SSL library provided by the OS:

$ pip install numpy
DEPRECATION: Python 2.7 reached the end of its life on January 1st,
2020. Please upgrade your Python as Python 2.7 is no longer
maintained. pip 21.0 will drop support for Python 2.7 in January 2021.
More details about Python 2 support in pip can be found at
https://pip.pypa.io/en/latest/development/release-process/#python-2-support
pip 21.0 will remove support for this functionality.
Collecting numpy
  Downloading numpy-1.16.6-cp27-cp27mu-manylinux1_x86_64.whl (17.0 MB)
 || 17.0 MB 14.3 MB/s
Installing collected packages: numpy
Successfully installed numpy-1.16.6

If it is actually the case that pip on Python 2.7 (on Windows) cannot
download from PyPI then an easier option rather than creating a local
server would just be to download the numpy wheels from PyPI using a
browser:

  https://pypi.org/project/numpy/1.15.4/#files

Then you can do

   pip install .\numpy-1.15.4-cp27-none-win_amd64.whl

Using a newer version of Python is still my primary suggestion though.

--
Oscar
-- 
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Re: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

[Chris Angelico via Python-list]

On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 at 07:57, Oscar Benjamin via Python-list
 wrote:
> They are seeing a warning that explicitly says "You can upgrade to a
> newer version of Python to solve this". I don't know whether that SSL
> warning is directly connected to pip not finding any versions of numpy
> but with the available information so far that seems like the first
> thing to consider.

I think it is; AIUI, with an ancient SSL library, pip is unable to
download packages safely from the current pypi server. So if anyone
actually does need to use pip with Python 2.7, they probably need to
set up a local server, using older encryption protocols (which should
therefore NOT be made accessible to the internet). Since pip can't
contact the upstream pypi, there's no available numpy for it to
install.

ChrisA
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Re: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

[Oscar Benjamin via Python-list]

On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 at 22:38, AVI GROSS via Python-list
 wrote:
>
> The discussion though was about a specific OP asking if they can fix their
> problem. One solution being suggested is to fix a deeper problem and simply
> make their code work with a recent version of python 3.

The OP has not replied with any explanation as to why they are using
Python 2.7 and has not said whether they have any existing code that
only works with Python 2.7. It is unclear at this point whether there
is any reason that they shouldn't just install a newer version of
Python.

They are seeing a warning that explicitly says "You can upgrade to a
newer version of Python to solve this". I don't know whether that SSL
warning is directly connected to pip not finding any versions of numpy
but with the available information so far that seems like the first
thing to consider.

It is entirely reasonable to start by suggesting to use a newer
version of Python until some reason is given for not doing that.

--
Oscar
-- 
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Re: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

[Chris Angelico via Python-list]

On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 at 07:36,  wrote:
> But if the goal was to deprecate python 2 and in some sense phase it out, it
> is perhaps not working well for some. Frankly, issuing so many updates like
> 2.7 and including backporting of new features has helped make it possible to
> delay any upgrade.

The goal was to improve Python. I don't think anyone's ever tried to
"kill off" Python 2 - not in the sense of stopping people from using
it - but there haven't been any changes, not even security fixes, in
over four years.

> And, yes, I was KIDDING about python 4. I am simply suggesting that there
> may well be a time that another shift happens that may require another
> effort to get people on board a new and perhaps incompatible setup.

Kidding, eh? It sure sounded like you were trying to imply that there
would inevitably be another major breaking change. It definitely
smelled like FUD.

Maybe your jokes just aren't funny.

ChrisA
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RE: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

[AVI GROSS via Python-list]

Chris,

Since you misunderstood, my statement was that making an incompatible set of
changes to create Python 3 in the first place was a decision made by some
and perhaps not one that thrilled others who already had an embedded base of
programs or ones in the pipeline that would need much work to become
comparable.

And, of course, users of a program who continued to use python 2, also have
to find a way to ...

But if the goal was to deprecate python 2 and in some sense phase it out, it
is perhaps not working well for some. Frankly, issuing so many updates like
2.7 and including backporting of new features has helped make it possible to
delay any upgrade.

And, yes, I was KIDDING about python 4. I am simply suggesting that there
may well be a time that another shift happens that may require another
effort to get people on board a new and perhaps incompatible setup. I have
seen things like that happen in multiple phases including phases where the
new tools are not an upgrade, but brand new. An example might be if
accompany decided to switch to another existing language because they want
better error detection and faster execution or new features that may take
forever to arrive in what they are using or that supply various services by
humans to help them.

The discussion though was about a specific OP asking if they can fix their
problem. One solution being suggested is to fix a deeper problem and simply
make their code work with a recent version of python 3. But another solution
could be to step backward to a version of python 2 that still has numpy
support, or as was suggested, find out what other modules they are using are
interfering with the program being satisfied with the last version of numpy
being used and perhaps find a way to get ...

In the long run, though, continuing with python 2 will likely cause ever
more such headaches if you want the latest and greatest of things like
numpy.


-Original Message-
From: Python-list  On
Behalf Of Chris Angelico via Python-list
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2024 2:00 PM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 at 03:41, AVI GROSS via Python-list
 wrote:
>
> Change is hard even when it may be necessary.
>
> The argument often is about whether some things are necessary or not.
>
> Python made a decision but clearly not a unanimous one.

What decision? To not release any new versions of Python 2? That isn't
actually the OP's problem here - the Python interpreter runs just
fine. But there's no numpy build for the OP's hardware and Python 2.7.

So if you want to complain about Python 2.7 being dead, all you have
to do is go through all of the popular packages and build binaries for
all modern computers. If that sounds easy, go ahead and do it; if it
sounds hard, realise that open source is not a democracy, and you
can't demand that other people do more and more and more unpaid work
just because you can't be bothered upgrading your code.

> My current PC was not upgradable because of the new hardware requirement
> Microsoft decided was needed for Windows 11.

Yes, and that's a good reason to switch to Linux for the older computer.

> I mention this in the context of examples of why even people who are
fairly
> knowledgeable do not feel much need to fix what does not feel broken.

It doesn't feel broken, right up until it does. The OP has discovered
that it *IS* broken. Whining that it doesn't "feel broken" is nonsense
when it is, in fact, not working.

> When is Python 4 coming?

Is this just another content-free whine, or are you actually curious
about the planned future of Python? If the latter, there is **PLENTY**
of information out there and I don't need to repeat it here.

Please don't FUD.

ChrisA
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

-- 
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Re: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

[Chris Angelico via Python-list]

On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 at 06:55, Thomas Passin via Python-list
 wrote:
> The project cannot move to a Python-3 compatible version because Jython
> 3.xx doesn't exist and may never exist.  The saving grace is that my
> project doesn't have to use packages like numpy, scipy, and so forth.

Exactly. If you don't need to ALSO use something newer, there's
nothing stopping you from continuing with the old version. And that's
fine! As long as you're okay with not getting updates, you're welcome
to do whatever you like - including running Windows 98 on an ancient
PC and editing your documents on that. (Yes, I know someone who did
that, long after Win 98 was dead to most of us.)

> Thunderbird and everything else worked perfectly for me during that
> week.  True, there were a few Windows-only programs I missed, but I used
> other similar programs even if I didn't like them as much.

It's true. And there ARE solutions to that, although it's a bit rough
trying to run them on low hardware (Wine works nicely for some
programs, less so for others; VirtualBox is really not gonna be happy
with a small fraction of your limited RAM). But if your needs are
simple, even a crazily low-end system is sufficient.

> It's amazing
> how little resources Linux installs need, even with a GUI.  Of course,
> 4GB RAM is limiting whether you are on Linux or Windows - you can't
> avoid shuffling all those GUI bits around - but with a little care it
> worked great.  And with the external SSD the laptop was a lot snappier
> than it ever was when it was new.

One of the big differences with Linux is that you have a choice of
desktop environments, from "none" (just boot straight into a terminal)
on up. Some of them are a bit of a compromise in terms of how well you
can get your work done, but let's say you had an even MORE ancient
system with maybe one gig of memory... I'd rather have a super-light
desktop environment even if it doesn't have everything I'm normally
accustomed to!

ChrisA
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Re: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

[Thomas Passin via Python-list]

On 6/12/2024 1:59 PM, Chris Angelico via Python-list wrote:

On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 at 03:41, AVI GROSS via Python-list
 wrote:


Change is hard even when it may be necessary.

The argument often is about whether some things are necessary or not.

Python made a decision but clearly not a unanimous one.


What decision? To not release any new versions of Python 2? That isn't
actually the OP's problem here - the Python interpreter runs just
fine. But there's no numpy build for the OP's hardware and Python 2.7.

So if you want to complain about Python 2.7 being dead, all you have
to do is go through all of the popular packages and build binaries for
all modern computers. If that sounds easy, go ahead and do it; if it
sounds hard, realise that open source is not a democracy, and you
can't demand that other people do more and more and more unpaid work
just because you can't be bothered upgrading your code.


I support a Tomcat project that has some java code and most of the code 
is for Jython 2.7.  Jython 2.7 is approximately on a par with Python 
2.7.  Any Python-only code from the standard library will probably run, 
but of course any C extensions cannot.  The nice thing about using 
Jython in a java environment is that it can call any java object, and 
java code can call Jython objects and their methods.


The project cannot move to a Python-3 compatible version because Jython 
3.xx doesn't exist and may never exist.  The saving grace is that my 
project doesn't have to use packages like numpy, scipy, and so forth. 
Also, the project is very mature and almost certainly won't need to 
create functionality such packages would enable.  It would be nice to be 
able to use some newer parts of the standard library, but there it is. 
Jython does support "from __future__ import" and I make use of that for 
the print function and the like.



My current PC was not upgradable because of the new hardware requirement
Microsoft decided was needed for Windows 11.


Yes, and that's a good reason to switch to Linux for the older computer.


I have a 2012-vintage laptop that in modern terms has a very small 
supply of RAM and a very slow hard drive. When my newer Windows 10 
computer was going to be out of service for a while, I put a Linux 
distro on an external SSD and copied things I needed to work on to it, 
including my Thunderbird email profile directory.


Thunderbird and everything else worked perfectly for me during that 
week.  True, there were a few Windows-only programs I missed, but I used 
other similar programs even if I didn't like them as much.  It's amazing 
how little resources Linux installs need, even with a GUI.  Of course, 
4GB RAM is limiting whether you are on Linux or Windows - you can't 
avoid shuffling all those GUI bits around - but with a little care it 
worked great.  And with the external SSD the laptop was a lot snappier 
than it ever was when it was new.



I mention this in the context of examples of why even people who are fairly
knowledgeable do not feel much need to fix what does not feel broken.


It doesn't feel broken, right up until it does. The OP has discovered
that it *IS* broken. Whining that it doesn't "feel broken" is nonsense
when it is, in fact, not working.


When is Python 4 coming?


Is this just another content-free whine, or are you actually curious
about the planned future of Python? If the latter, there is **PLENTY**
of information out there and I don't need to repeat it here.

Please don't FUD.

ChrisA


--
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Re: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

[Chris Angelico via Python-list]

On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 at 03:41, AVI GROSS via Python-list
 wrote:
>
> Change is hard even when it may be necessary.
>
> The argument often is about whether some things are necessary or not.
>
> Python made a decision but clearly not a unanimous one.

What decision? To not release any new versions of Python 2? That isn't
actually the OP's problem here - the Python interpreter runs just
fine. But there's no numpy build for the OP's hardware and Python 2.7.

So if you want to complain about Python 2.7 being dead, all you have
to do is go through all of the popular packages and build binaries for
all modern computers. If that sounds easy, go ahead and do it; if it
sounds hard, realise that open source is not a democracy, and you
can't demand that other people do more and more and more unpaid work
just because you can't be bothered upgrading your code.

> My current PC was not upgradable because of the new hardware requirement
> Microsoft decided was needed for Windows 11.

Yes, and that's a good reason to switch to Linux for the older computer.

> I mention this in the context of examples of why even people who are fairly
> knowledgeable do not feel much need to fix what does not feel broken.

It doesn't feel broken, right up until it does. The OP has discovered
that it *IS* broken. Whining that it doesn't "feel broken" is nonsense
when it is, in fact, not working.

> When is Python 4 coming?

Is this just another content-free whine, or are you actually curious
about the planned future of Python? If the latter, there is **PLENTY**
of information out there and I don't need to repeat it here.

Please don't FUD.

ChrisA
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

RE: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

[AVI GROSS via Python-list]

Change is hard even when it may be necessary.

The argument often is about whether some things are necessary or not.

Python made a decision but clearly not a unanimous one.

My current PC was not upgradable because of the new hardware requirement
Microsoft decided was needed for Windows 11. I bought a new one a while back
and turned it on in another room and then set it aside because replacing the
current one in the current position will be a pain, especially with getting
all my wires and so on, and since I do not want to use a full copy of my
data including many obsolete things, that will be another pain to get what I
need, if I can remember. Complicating issues also include licenses for
things in fixed amounts and the likelihood of messing up the
hardware/software I have that records shows from cable to my hard disk,
possibly needing to buy a new one.

I mention this in the context of examples of why even people who are fairly
knowledgeable do not feel much need to fix what does not feel broken.

I have wondered if instead of doing what Microsoft wants, if maybe switching
to Linux of some kinds makes as much sense. I suspect some may simply
upgrade to an Apple product.

And think of all the PC's that may effectively be discarded as they may not
even be usable if donated.

We live in a rapidly developing age and hence one with regularly and
irregularly scheduled rounds of obsolescence.

When is Python 4 coming?

-Original Message-
From: Python-list  On
Behalf Of MRAB via Python-list
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2024 12:56 PM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

On 2024-06-12 17:31, AVI GROSS via Python-list wrote:
> I am sure there is inertia to move from an older product and some people
> need a reason like this where the old becomes untenable.
> 
> It seems Microsoft is having a problem where something lik 2/3 of Windows
> users have not upgraded from Windows 10 after many years and have set a
> deadline in a year or so for stopping updates. In that case, hardware was
a
> concern for some as Windows 11 did not work on their machines. With
> upgrading python, the main concern is having to get someone to examine old
> code and try to make it compatible.
> 
In the case of Windows, my PC is over 10 years old yet performs 
perfectly well for my needs. It can't run Windows 11. Therefore, I'm in 
the process of migrating to Linux, and I still have over a year to 
achieve that before support ends.

> But anyone doing new code in Python 2 in recent years should ...
> 
Indeed...

> -Original Message-
> From: Python-list 
On
> Behalf Of Gordinator via Python-list
> Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2024 10:19 AM
> To: python-list@python.org
> Subject: Re: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7
> 
> On 12/06/2024 12:30, marc nicole wrote:
>> I am trying to install numpy library on Python 2.7.15 in PyCharm but the
>> error message I get is:
>> 
>> ERROR: Could not find a version that satisfies the requirement numpy
(from
>>> versions: none)
>>> ERROR: No matching distribution found for numpy
>>> c:\python27\lib\site-packages\pip\_vendor\urllib3\util\ssl_.py:164:
>>> InsecurePlatformWarning: A true SSLContext object is not available. This
>>> prevents urllib3 fro
>>> m configuring SSL appropriately and may cause certain SSL connections to
>>> fail. You can upgrade to a newer version of Python to solve this. For
> more
>>> information, see
>>>
https://urllib3.readthedocs.io/en/latest/advanced-usage.html#ssl-warnings
>>>InsecurePlatformWarning,
>> 
>> 
>> Any clues?
> 
> Why are you using Python 2? Come on, it's been 16 years. Ya gotta move
> on at some point.

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-- 
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Re: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

[MRAB via Python-list]

On 2024-06-12 17:31, AVI GROSS via Python-list wrote:

I am sure there is inertia to move from an older product and some people
need a reason like this where the old becomes untenable.

It seems Microsoft is having a problem where something lik 2/3 of Windows
users have not upgraded from Windows 10 after many years and have set a
deadline in a year or so for stopping updates. In that case, hardware was a
concern for some as Windows 11 did not work on their machines. With
upgrading python, the main concern is having to get someone to examine old
code and try to make it compatible.

In the case of Windows, my PC is over 10 years old yet performs 
perfectly well for my needs. It can't run Windows 11. Therefore, I'm in 
the process of migrating to Linux, and I still have over a year to 
achieve that before support ends.



But anyone doing new code in Python 2 in recent years should ...


Indeed...


-Original Message-
From: Python-list  On
Behalf Of Gordinator via Python-list
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2024 10:19 AM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

On 12/06/2024 12:30, marc nicole wrote:

I am trying to install numpy library on Python 2.7.15 in PyCharm but the
error message I get is:

ERROR: Could not find a version that satisfies the requirement numpy (from

versions: none)
ERROR: No matching distribution found for numpy
c:\python27\lib\site-packages\pip\_vendor\urllib3\util\ssl_.py:164:
InsecurePlatformWarning: A true SSLContext object is not available. This
prevents urllib3 fro
m configuring SSL appropriately and may cause certain SSL connections to
fail. You can upgrade to a newer version of Python to solve this. For

more

information, see
https://urllib3.readthedocs.io/en/latest/advanced-usage.html#ssl-warnings
   InsecurePlatformWarning,



Any clues?


Why are you using Python 2? Come on, it's been 16 years. Ya gotta move
on at some point.


--
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RE: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

[AVI GROSS via Python-list]

I am sure there is inertia to move from an older product and some people
need a reason like this where the old becomes untenable.

It seems Microsoft is having a problem where something lik 2/3 of Windows
users have not upgraded from Windows 10 after many years and have set a
deadline in a year or so for stopping updates. In that case, hardware was a
concern for some as Windows 11 did not work on their machines. With
upgrading python, the main concern is having to get someone to examine old
code and try to make it compatible. 

But anyone doing new code in Python 2 in recent years should ...

-Original Message-
From: Python-list  On
Behalf Of Gordinator via Python-list
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2024 10:19 AM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

On 12/06/2024 12:30, marc nicole wrote:
> I am trying to install numpy library on Python 2.7.15 in PyCharm but the
> error message I get is:
> 
> ERROR: Could not find a version that satisfies the requirement numpy (from
>> versions: none)
>> ERROR: No matching distribution found for numpy
>> c:\python27\lib\site-packages\pip\_vendor\urllib3\util\ssl_.py:164:
>> InsecurePlatformWarning: A true SSLContext object is not available. This
>> prevents urllib3 fro
>> m configuring SSL appropriately and may cause certain SSL connections to
>> fail. You can upgrade to a newer version of Python to solve this. For
more
>> information, see
>> https://urllib3.readthedocs.io/en/latest/advanced-usage.html#ssl-warnings
>>InsecurePlatformWarning,
> 
> 
> Any clues?

Why are you using Python 2? Come on, it's been 16 years. Ya gotta move 
on at some point.
-- 
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Re: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

[Gordinator via Python-list]

On 12/06/2024 12:30, marc nicole wrote:

I am trying to install numpy library on Python 2.7.15 in PyCharm but the
error message I get is:

ERROR: Could not find a version that satisfies the requirement numpy (from

versions: none)
ERROR: No matching distribution found for numpy
c:\python27\lib\site-packages\pip\_vendor\urllib3\util\ssl_.py:164:
InsecurePlatformWarning: A true SSLContext object is not available. This
prevents urllib3 fro
m configuring SSL appropriately and may cause certain SSL connections to
fail. You can upgrade to a newer version of Python to solve this. For more
information, see
https://urllib3.readthedocs.io/en/latest/advanced-usage.html#ssl-warnings
   InsecurePlatformWarning,



Any clues?


Why are you using Python 2? Come on, it's been 16 years. Ya gotta move 
on at some point.

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Couldn't install numpy on Python 2.7

[Chris Angelico via Python-list]

On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 at 21:32, marc nicole via Python-list
 wrote:
>
> I am trying to install numpy library on Python 2.7.15 in PyCharm but the
> error message I get is:
>
> You can upgrade to a newer version of Python to solve this.

The answer is right there in the error message.

ChrisA
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Re: in Python? -- Chunk -- (ChunkC '(a a b b b)), ==> ((a 2) (b 3))

[HenHanna via Python-list]

On 6/10/2024 6:29 AM, Rob Cliffe wrote:

import itertools

def chunk1(seq):
     return [ ch * len(list(grp)) for (ch, grp) in itertools.groupby(s) ]

def chunk2(seq):
     return [ (ch, len(list(grp))) for (ch, grp) in itertools.groupby(s) ]

s='aaabbaa'
print(chunk1(s))
print(chunk2(s))
###
Program output:
['aaa', 'bb', '', 'aa']
[('a', 3), ('b', 2), ('c', 4), ('a', 2)]

Rob Cliffe




thank you...   OMG... For 10 minutes... i was SO mystified by
the question...
How can this code work??? ,  when it's
  > def chunk1(seq):
 and it's  [s]   within the def-body ?

it seemed as if the Compiler was doing a DWIM (Do what i mean)  trick.




On 09/06/2024 22:20, HenHanna via Python-list wrote:


Chunk, ChunkC -- nice simple way(s) to write these in Python?


(Chunk  '(a a   b    a a a   b b))
    ==> ((a a) (b)  (a a a) (b b))


(Chunk  '(a a a a   b   c c   a a   d   e e e e))
    ==> ((a a a a) (b) (c c) (a a) (d) (e e e e))


(Chunk  '(2 2   foo   bar bar   j j j   k   baz baz))
    ==> ((2 2) (foo) (bar bar) (j j j) (k) (baz baz))

_

(ChunkC  '(a a   b b b))
 ==> ((a 2)  (b 3))

(ChunkC  '(a a   b  a a a   b b))
 ==> ((a 2)  (b 1)  (a 3)   (b 2))




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RE: in Python? -- Chunk -- (ChunkC '(a a b b b)), ==> ((a 2) (b 3))

[AVI GROSS via Python-list]

Rob,

That is a fairly straightforward and elegant solution if using an added mode 
called itertools.

I went a different way by creating my own focused iterator and calling it, when 
needed, to produce one or the other of the results requested in the functions 
named chunk() and chunkc(). But note my version operates to produce lists no 
matter what the input was. It produces lists nestled within lists. Presumably 
it could be adjusted to check if the input was a tuple and then return a 
grouping of tuples within a tuple.

The code, just for fun, is below and probably could be more elegant! LOL!

### CODE START

# Iterator version to be called as needed or all at once as with ChunkC
def ChunkIterator(seq):
  # Purpose is to evaluate a list and return a list
  # of lists with each one containing the longest run
  # of each item.
  
  # Handle an empty list
  if len(seq) == 0: return container
  
  # Initialize the first item in a copy.
  # The first item is now in a initialized list.
  gathered = [last := seq[0]]
  
  # Loop over the remaining items and yield as needed.
  for item in seq[1:]:
if len(gathered) == 0: gathered = [item]
elif item == last: gathered.append(item)
else: # not equal means yield result and start anew for next group
  yield(gathered)
  gathered = [last := item]
  
  # After loop completes, any remaining data is returned as the function 
terminates. 
  if len(gathered) > 0: yield(gathered)

# Accesory function that runs the iterator to completion into a list.  
def Chunk(seq): return list(ChunkIterator(seq))

# Function that simplifies the Chunks as an item and a number of instances.
def ChunkC(seq):
  return [[group[0], len(group)] for  group in ChunkIterator(seq)]
### CODE END

### EXAMPLES
>>> tuple(Chunk([1, 2, 2, 'c', 'c', 'c', 'singleton']))
([1], [2, 2], ['c', 'c', 'c'], ['singleton'])
>>> chunk([1, 2, 2, 'c', 'c', 'c', 'singleton'])
[[1], [2, 2], ['c', 'c', 'c'], ['singleton']]
>>> chunkC([1, 2, 2, 'c', 'c', 'c', 'singleton'])
[[1, 1], [2, 2], ['c', 3], ['singleton', 1]]

# COMMENTS
The current version has flaws I have not bothered correcting. Just for a demo.


-Original Message-
From: Python-list  On 
Behalf Of Rob Cliffe via Python-list
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2024 9:29 AM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: in Python? -- Chunk -- (ChunkC '(a a b b b)), ==> ((a 2) (b 3))

import itertools

def chunk1(seq):
 return [ ch * len(list(grp)) for (ch, grp) in itertools.groupby(s) ]

def chunk2(seq):
 return [ (ch, len(list(grp))) for (ch, grp) in itertools.groupby(s) ]

s='aaabbaa'
print(chunk1(s))
print(chunk2(s))
###
Program output:
['aaa', 'bb', '', 'aa']
[('a', 3), ('b', 2), ('c', 4), ('a', 2)]

Rob Cliffe

On 09/06/2024 22:20, HenHanna via Python-list wrote:
>
> Chunk, ChunkC -- nice simple way(s) to write these in Python?
>
>
> (Chunk  '(a a   ba a a   b b))
> ==> ((a a) (b)  (a a a) (b b))
>
>
> (Chunk  '(a a a a   b   c c   a a   d   e e e e))
> ==> ((a a a a) (b) (c c) (a a) (d) (e e e e))
>
>
> (Chunk  '(2 2   foo   bar bar   j j j   k   baz baz))
> ==> ((2 2) (foo) (bar bar) (j j j) (k) (baz baz))
>
> _
>
> (ChunkC  '(a a   b b b))
>  ==> ((a 2)  (b 3))
>
> (ChunkC  '(a a   b  a a a   b b))
>  ==> ((a 2)  (b 1)  (a 3)   (b 2))

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Re: in Python? -- Chunk -- (ChunkC '(a a b b b)), ==> ((a 2) (b 3))

[Rob Cliffe via Python-list]

import itertools

def chunk1(seq):
    return [ ch * len(list(grp)) for (ch, grp) in itertools.groupby(s) ]

def chunk2(seq):
    return [ (ch, len(list(grp))) for (ch, grp) in itertools.groupby(s) ]

s='aaabbaa'
print(chunk1(s))
print(chunk2(s))
###
Program output:
['aaa', 'bb', '', 'aa']
[('a', 3), ('b', 2), ('c', 4), ('a', 2)]

Rob Cliffe

On 09/06/2024 22:20, HenHanna via Python-list wrote:


Chunk, ChunkC -- nice simple way(s) to write these in Python?


(Chunk  '(a a   b    a a a   b b))
    ==> ((a a) (b)  (a a a) (b b))


(Chunk  '(a a a a   b   c c   a a   d   e e e e))
    ==> ((a a a a) (b) (c c) (a a) (d) (e e e e))


(Chunk  '(2 2   foo   bar bar   j j j   k   baz baz))
    ==> ((2 2) (foo) (bar bar) (j j j) (k) (baz baz))

_

(ChunkC  '(a a   b b b))
 ==> ((a 2)  (b 3))

(ChunkC  '(a a   b  a a a   b b))
 ==> ((a 2)  (b 1)  (a 3)   (b 2))


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RE: in Python? -- Chunk -- (ChunkC '(a a b b b)), ==> ((a 2) (b 3))

[AVI GROSS via Python-list]

> i was just curiuos about simple, clever way to write it in Python

It depends on what you mean by "clever".

For some, it was like a suggestion on using something already available such
as itertools.groupby, perhaps even better if it is actually compiled in from
a language like C and perhaps more efficient.

For some who like to Scheme, only a recursive solution may be  considered
clever!

For some who have absorbed ideas in languages like python,  perhaps they
would implement it the way I described as an iterator that is efficient in
the sense that it delivers things just in time and quits if not iterated
further. An example might be if you asked to get groups of consecutive
digits in the calculated indefinite value of a number like pi or e or looked
at how many digits in a row were the same for prime numbers but wanted to
quit after the first billion.

Some may like some kind of functional programming method. Some want short
code and some want efficiency and some even like something written in a
subtle way so others have trouble understanding it, as in the obfuscated C
contests.

What you do need to consider is what exactly are your requirements. Your
examples are trivial so maybe we need to think about what it means to gather
together what is supplied in one container, into a container containing
other grouped containers.

First, what python containers should be handled? Yes, you probably mean a
list but if handed a tuple, should it return the same, or always return a
list for the top level and perhaps even deeper levels? There are many
containers in python including (ordered) dictionaries where the keys may be
unique, but you may want to see if the contents have some order, numpy
arrays, and so on.

And, are all the contents required to be atomic? What does it mean for items
in a row to be equal? If I have a sublist, should I unlist to make it flat
first, or should it be an error, or should each such sublist be compared for
full equality or even relative equality so that (a (b c) (c b) d) actually
accepts (b c) and (c b) as the same for the purpose? For that matter, is 1.0
matched to 1 or even "1" or perhaps an object that has that value in some
way such as when comparing arbitrary objects?

There can be many such questions and some elegant methods get less elegant
if they need to handle too much. You need to explain what to do when a bad
unintended case is found, such as perhaps an empty list or ...

To just do what your examples ask, again, seems easy enough. It is the usual
code if not done too elegantly. Write a function that accepts a list (or
tries to coerce what it gets into a copy as a list. It returns an empty list
if it has nothing, otherwise pops off the first item and then loops on the
rest. When items match the current first item, extend a sublist and when
they don't, yield what you have and start a new sublist. After the loop,
anything remaining is returned.

Simple enough?

Note to get your result properly, since it is an iterator, you need to
either be calling it iteratively, or do something like:

Result = list(chunk(something))

To force it to run to completion.



-Original Message-
From: Python-list  On
Behalf Of HenHanna via Python-list
Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2024 10:37 PM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: in Python? -- Chunk -- (ChunkC '(a a b b b)), ==> ((a 2) (b 3))

On 6/9/2024 7:05 PM, avi.e.gr...@gmail.com wrote:
> I remembered that HenHanna had been hard to deal with in the past and when
> my reply to him/her/them bounced as a bad/fake address it came back to me
> that I am better off not participating in this latest attempt to get us to
> perform then probably shoot whatever we say down.
> 
> A considerate person would ask questions more clearly and perhaps explain
> what language they are showing us code from and so on.
> 
> Life is too short to waste.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Python-list 
On
> Behalf Of HenHanna via Python-list
> Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2024 5:20 PM
> To: python-list@python.org
> Subject: in Python? -- Chunk -- (ChunkC '(a a b b b)), ==> ((a 2) (b 3))
> 
> Chunk, ChunkC -- nice simple way(s) to write these in Python?
> 
> 
> (Chunk  '(a a   ba a a   b b))
>   ==> ((a a) (b)  (a a a) (b b))
> 
> 
> (Chunk  '(a a a a   b   c c   a a   d   e e e e))
>   ==> ((a a a a) (b) (c c) (a a) (d) (e e e e))
> 
> 
> (Chunk  '(2 2   foo   bar bar   j j j   k   baz baz))
>   ==> ((2 2) (foo) (bar bar) (j j j) (k) (baz baz))
> 
> _
> 
> (ChunkC  '(a a   b b b))
>==> ((a 2)  (b 3))
> 
> (ChunkC  '(a a   b  a a a   b b))
>==> ((a 2)  (b 1)  (a 3)   (b 2))



i was just curiuos about simple, clever way to write it in Python


in Scheme (Gauche)

(use srfi-1)  ;; span

(define (gp x)
   (if (null? x) '()
 (let-values (((F L) 

Re: IDLE: clearing the screen

[Michael F. Stemper via Python-list]

On 08/06/2024 14.18, Rob Cliffe wrote:

OK, here is the advanced version:
import os
class _cls(object):
     def __repr__(self):
         os.system('cls')
         return ''
cls = _cls()

Now when you type
cls
it clears the screen.  The only flaw is that there is a blank line at the very top of the screen, 
and the ">>>" prompt appears on the SECOND line.
(This blank line is because the IDLE prints the blank value returned by "return 
''" and adds a newline to it, as it does when printing the value of any expression.)


Why have it return anything at all?

--
Michael F. Stemper
Indians scattered on dawn's highway bleeding;
Ghosts crowd the young child's fragile eggshell mind.

--
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Re: IDLE: clearing the screen

[Michael F. Stemper via Python-list]

On 10/06/2024 09.32, Stefan Ram wrote:

"Michael F. Stemper"  wrote or quoted:

On 08/06/2024 14.18, Rob Cliffe wrote:

OK, here is the advanced version:
import os
class _cls(object):
      def __repr__(self):
          os.system('cls')
          return ''
cls = _cls()

...

Why have it return anything at all?


   Because __repr__ needs to return a str.


Got it. Thanks for clarifying.

--
Michael F. Stemper
87.3% of all statistics are made up by the person giving them.

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: in Python? -- Chunk -- (ChunkC '(a a b b b)), ==> ((a 2) (b 3))

[HenHanna via Python-list]

On 6/9/2024 7:05 PM, avi.e.gr...@gmail.com wrote:

I remembered that HenHanna had been hard to deal with in the past and when
my reply to him/her/them bounced as a bad/fake address it came back to me
that I am better off not participating in this latest attempt to get us to
perform then probably shoot whatever we say down.

A considerate person would ask questions more clearly and perhaps explain
what language they are showing us code from and so on.

Life is too short to waste.

-Original Message-
From: Python-list  On
Behalf Of HenHanna via Python-list
Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2024 5:20 PM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: in Python? -- Chunk -- (ChunkC '(a a b b b)), ==> ((a 2) (b 3))

Chunk, ChunkC -- nice simple way(s) to write these in Python?


(Chunk  '(a a   ba a a   b b))
  ==> ((a a) (b)  (a a a) (b b))


(Chunk  '(a a a a   b   c c   a a   d   e e e e))
  ==> ((a a a a) (b) (c c) (a a) (d) (e e e e))


(Chunk  '(2 2   foo   bar bar   j j j   k   baz baz))
  ==> ((2 2) (foo) (bar bar) (j j j) (k) (baz baz))

_

(ChunkC  '(a a   b b b))
   ==> ((a 2)  (b 3))

(ChunkC  '(a a   b  a a a   b b))
   ==> ((a 2)  (b 1)  (a 3)   (b 2))




i was just curiuos about simple, clever way to write it in Python


in Scheme (Gauche)

(use srfi-1)  ;; span

(define (gp x)
  (if (null? x) '()
(let-values (((F L) (span (cut equal? (car x) <>) x)))
  (cons F (gp L)

(print (gp   '(ab ba a a   b b b b)))
(print (gp   '(c c c   a   d d d d   a   e e e e e)))

(define (gpC x)  (map (lambda (x) (list (car x) (length x))) (gp x)))

(print (gpC '(ab ba a a   b b b b)))
(print (gpC '(c c c   a   d d d d   a   e e e e e)))
--
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Re: in Python? -- Chunk -- (ChunkC '(a a b b b)), ==> ((a 2) (b 3))

[HenHanna via Python-list]

On 6/9/2024 3:50 PM, MRAB wrote:

On 2024-06-09 22:20, HenHanna via Python-list wrote:


Chunk, ChunkC -- nice simple way(s) to write these in Python?


(Chunk  '(a a   b    a a a   b b))
  ==> ((a a) (b)  (a a a) (b b))


(Chunk  '(a a a a   b   c c   a a   d   e e e e))
  ==> ((a a a a) (b) (c c) (a a) (d) (e e e e))


(Chunk  '(2 2   foo   bar bar   j j j   k   baz baz))
  ==> ((2 2) (foo) (bar bar) (j j j) (k) (baz baz))

_

(ChunkC  '(a a   b b b))
   ==> ((a 2)  (b 3))

(ChunkC  '(a a   b  a a a   b b))
   ==> ((a 2)  (b 1)  (a 3)   (b 2))


You can make use of itertools.groupby.




Thanks!   i'll try it.


Scheme (Gauche)

(use srfi-1)   ; span

(define (gp x)
  (if (null? x) '()
(let-values (((F L) (span (cut equal? (car x) <>) x)))
  (cons F (gp L)

(print (gp   '(ab ba a a   b b b b)))
(print (gp   '(c c c   a   d d d d   a   e e e e e)))

--
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RE: in Python? -- Chunk -- (ChunkC '(a a b b b)), ==> ((a 2) (b 3))

[AVI GROSS via Python-list]

I remembered that HenHanna had been hard to deal with in the past and when
my reply to him/her/them bounced as a bad/fake address it came back to me
that I am better off not participating in this latest attempt to get us to
perform then probably shoot whatever we say down.

A considerate person would ask questions more clearly and perhaps explain
what language they are showing us code from and so on.

Life is too short to waste.

-Original Message-
From: Python-list  On
Behalf Of HenHanna via Python-list
Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2024 5:20 PM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: in Python? -- Chunk -- (ChunkC '(a a b b b)), ==> ((a 2) (b 3))


Chunk, ChunkC -- nice simple way(s) to write these in Python?


(Chunk  '(a a   ba a a   b b))
 ==> ((a a) (b)  (a a a) (b b))


(Chunk  '(a a a a   b   c c   a a   d   e e e e))
 ==> ((a a a a) (b) (c c) (a a) (d) (e e e e))


(Chunk  '(2 2   foo   bar bar   j j j   k   baz baz))
 ==> ((2 2) (foo) (bar bar) (j j j) (k) (baz baz))

_

(ChunkC  '(a a   b b b))
  ==> ((a 2)  (b 3))

(ChunkC  '(a a   b  a a a   b b))
  ==> ((a 2)  (b 1)  (a 3)   (b 2))
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RE: in Python? -- Chunk -- (ChunkC '(a a b b b)), ==> ((a 2) (b 3))

[AVI GROSS via Python-list]

HH,

Before bothering, it might be helpful if you spelled out a bit more in the
way of requirements that would satisfy you and perhaps show your attempts.

Your examples suggest it would be fairly simple to create an iterator, for
example, that would yield as it examined one item at a time until it ran out
or the next item was not the same. It could then either return a tuple it
had collected so far since the last yield, or for what you call chunkC,
return a tuple containing one copy of the item and a count of how many.

But if you want something else, such as a list all at once, that too would
be trivial, perhaps leveraging the above.

-Original Message-
From: Python-list  On
Behalf Of HenHanna via Python-list
Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2024 5:20 PM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: in Python? -- Chunk -- (ChunkC '(a a b b b)), ==> ((a 2) (b 3))


Chunk, ChunkC -- nice simple way(s) to write these in Python?


(Chunk  '(a a   ba a a   b b))
 ==> ((a a) (b)  (a a a) (b b))


(Chunk  '(a a a a   b   c c   a a   d   e e e e))
 ==> ((a a a a) (b) (c c) (a a) (d) (e e e e))


(Chunk  '(2 2   foo   bar bar   j j j   k   baz baz))
 ==> ((2 2) (foo) (bar bar) (j j j) (k) (baz baz))

_

(ChunkC  '(a a   b b b))
  ==> ((a 2)  (b 3))

(ChunkC  '(a a   b  a a a   b b))
  ==> ((a 2)  (b 1)  (a 3)   (b 2))
-- 
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-- 
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Re: in Python? -- Chunk -- (ChunkC '(a a b b b)), ==> ((a 2) (b 3))

[MRAB via Python-list]

On 2024-06-09 22:20, HenHanna via Python-list wrote:


Chunk, ChunkC -- nice simple way(s) to write these in Python?


(Chunk  '(a a   ba a a   b b))
  ==> ((a a) (b)  (a a a) (b b))


(Chunk  '(a a a a   b   c c   a a   d   e e e e))
  ==> ((a a a a) (b) (c c) (a a) (d) (e e e e))


(Chunk  '(2 2   foo   bar bar   j j j   k   baz baz))
  ==> ((2 2) (foo) (bar bar) (j j j) (k) (baz baz))

_

(ChunkC  '(a a   b b b))
   ==> ((a 2)  (b 3))

(ChunkC  '(a a   b  a a a   b b))
   ==> ((a 2)  (b 1)  (a 3)   (b 2))


You can make use of itertools.groupby.

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Re: IDLE: clearing the screen

[Alan Gauld via Python-list]

On 08/06/2024 20:18, Rob Cliffe via Python-list wrote:
> OK, here is the advanced version:
> import os
> class _cls(object):
>      def __repr__(self):
>          os.system('cls')
>          return ''
> cls = _cls()
> 
> Now when you type
> cls
> it clears the screen.  

For me on a Mac it clears the terminal screen that I used
to launch IDLE and prints a single blank line on the IDLE
shell. (And I have to use "clear" instead of "cls" of course.

A quick Google suggests that printing Ctrl-L (formfeed?) might
be a platform agnostic solution. But that didn't work for me
in IDLE either. I think this is one where the best bet is to go
into the IDLE code and add a Shell submenu to clear screen!
Apparently it's been on the workstack at idle-dev for a long
time but is considered low priority...

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos


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Re: From JoyceUlysses.txt -- words occurring exactly once

[Grant Edwards via Python-list]

On 2024-06-08, Larry Martell via Python-list  wrote:

> The original question struck me as homework or an interview question for a
> junior position. But having no clear requirements or specifications is good
> training for the real world where that is often the case. When you question
> that, you are told to just do something, and then you’re told it’s not what
> is wanted. That frustrates people but it’s often part of the process.
> People need to see something to help them know what they really want.

Too true.  You can spend all sorts of time getting people to pin down
and sign off on the initial requirements, but it all goes right out
the window when they get the first prototype.

  "This isn't what we want, we want it to do ."

  "It does what you specified."

  "But, this isn't what we want."

  ...

If you're on salary, it's all part of the job. If you're a contractor,
you either figure it in to the bid or charge for change orders.



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RE: From JoyceUlysses.txt -- words occurring exactly once

[AVI GROSS via Python-list]

I agree with Larry that the OP was asking something that might be fair to use 
in an interview process where perhaps an exact answer is not as important as 
showing how the person thinks about a process. The original question can be 
incomplete or vague. Do they give up? Do they ask careful questions that might 
elicit missing parts? Do they examine alternatives and then pick a reasonable 
one and document exactly which possible version(s) their presented code should 
solve?

In this case, as mentioned, one approach is to isolate the determination of 
what a word means from the rest of the problem.

In effect, the code can be:

- read in all lines of text.
- words = function_name(text)
- optionally, manipulate the words such as making them all the same case, 
removing some characters, throwing some way.
- count the words in words remaining using some method such as a dictionary.
- output reports as requested.

You could then design any number of functions you can slide into place and the 
remaining code may continue working without changes.

It may not matter if you can specify the specific definition of text if you 
show the general solution, and maybe instantiate some fairly simple way of 
making words.

Note, the above logic applies not to just python but most programming 
environments. If someone interviewed me for a job in say, Rust, which I am just 
now learning out of curiosity, I might not know how to program some parts of a 
problem like this, let alone make use of the idioms of that language right 
away. But if they want someone who can rapidly learn the local ways and adapt, 
then the best they can do is try to see if you think like a programmer and can 
think abstractly and be able to do lots of work even while waiting for more 
info from someone on what they want for a specific part.

Or, in a case like this problem, I wonder if they would want to hear a 
suggestion that this may more easily be done in languages that support 
something like the dictionary or hash or associative array concept or that have 
available modules/packages/crates/etc. that provide such functionality.

-Original Message-
From: Python-list  On 
Behalf Of Larry Martell via Python-list
Sent: Saturday, June 8, 2024 11:54 AM
To: Mats Wichmann 
Cc: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: From JoyceUlysses.txt -- words occurring exactly once

On Sat, Jun 8, 2024 at 10:39 AM Mats Wichmann via Python-list <
python-list@python.org> wrote:

> On 6/5/24 05:10, Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote:
>
> > Of course, we see this lack of clarity all the time in questions to the
> > list.  I often wonder how these askers can possibly come up with
> > acceptable code if they don't realize they don't truly know what it's
> > supposed to do.
>
> Fortunately, having to explain to someone else why something is giving
> you trouble can help shed light on the fact the problem statement isn't
> clear, or isn't clearly understood. Sometimes (sadly, many times it
> doesn't).


The original question struck me as homework or an interview question for a
junior position. But having no clear requirements or specifications is good
training for the real world where that is often the case. When you question
that, you are told to just do something, and then you’re told it’s not what
is wanted. That frustrates people but it’s often part of the process.
People need to see something to help them know what they really want.

>
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Re: From JoyceUlysses.txt -- words occurring exactly once

[Thomas Passin via Python-list]

On 6/8/2024 2:46 PM, avi.e.gr...@gmail.com wrote:

Agreed, Thomas.

As someone who has spent lots of time writing code OR requirements of various 
levels or having to deal with the bugs afterwards, there can be a huge 
disconnect between the people trying to decide what to do and the people having 
to do it. It is not necessarily easy to come back later and ask for changes 
that wewre not anticipated in the design or implementation.


And typical contract vehicles aren't often flexible to allow for this 
kind of thing. I've always tried to persuade my management to allow 
built-in phases where re-evaluation can take place based on what's been 
learned. To have a hope of that working, though, there needs to be a lot 
of trust between client and development folks.  Can be hard to come by.



I recently wrote a program where the original specifications seemed reasonable. 
In one part, I was asked to make a graph with some random number (or all) of 
the data shown as a series of connected line segments showing values for the 
same entity at different measurement periods and then superimpose the mean for 
all the original data, not just the subsample shown. This needed to be done on 
multiple subsamples of the original/calculated data so I made it into a 
function.

One of the datasets contained a column that was either A or B and the function 
was called multiple times to show what a random sample of A+B, just A and just 
B graphed like along with the mean of the specific data it was drawn from. But 
then, I got an innocuously simple request.

Could we graph A+B and overlay not only the means for A+B as was now done, but 
also the mean for A and the mean for B. Ideally, this would mean three bolder 
jaged lines superimposed above the plot and seemed simple enough.

But was it? To graph the means in the first place, I made a more complex data 
structure needed so when graphed, it aligned well with what was below it. But 
that was hard coded in my function, but in one implementation, I now needed it 
three times. Extracting it into a new function was not trivial as it depended 
initially on other things within the body of the function. But, it was doable 
and might have been done that way had I known such a need might arise. It often 
is like that when there seems no need to write a function for just one use. The 
main function now needed to be modified to allow optionally adding one or two 
more datasets and if available, call the new function on each and add layers to 
the graph with the additional means (dashed and dotted) if they are called 
while otherwise, the function worked as before.


I feel your pain. In the generalized X-Y graphing program I've evolved 
over several generations, I have graphing methods that can plot points 
and curves, optionally overlaying them.  Any function that wants to plot 
something has to generate a dataset object of the type that the plotter 
knows how to plot.  No exceptions. Nothing else ever plots to the 
screen.  It's simple and works very well ... but I only designed it to 
have axis labels and the title of the plot. They are all three 
interactive, editable by the user.  That's good, but for anything else 
it's hack time.  Witness lines, legends, point labels, etc., etc. don't 
have a natural home.



But did I do it right? Well, if next time I am asked to have the data extended to 
have more measurements in more columns at more times, I might have to rewrite quite 
a bit of the code. My localized change allowed one or two additional means to be 
plotted. Adding an arbitrary number takes a different approach and, frankly, there 
are limits on how many kinds of 'line" segments can be used to differentiate 
among them.


This is the kind of situation where it needs to be implemented three 
times before it gets good.  One always thinks that the second time 
around will work well because all the lessons were learned the first 
time around.  But no, it's not the second but the third implementation 
that can start to be really good.



Enough of the example except to make a point. In some projects, it is not 
enough to tell a programmer what you want NOW. You may get what you want fairly 
quickly but if you have ideas of possible extensions or future upgrades, it 
would be wiser to make clear some of the goals so the programmer creates an 
implementation that can be more easily adjusted to do more. Such code can take 
longer and be more complex so it may not pay off immediately.

But, having said that, plenty of software may benefit from looking at what is 
happening and adjusting on the fly. Clearly my client cannot know what feedback 
they may get when showing an actual result to others who then suggest changes 
or enhancements. The results may not be anticipated so well in advance and 
especially not when the client has no idea what is doable and so on.

A related example was a request for how to modify a sort of Venn Diagram  chart 
to change the font size

Re: IDLE: clearing the screen

[Rob Cliffe via Python-list]

OK, here is the advanced version:
import os
class _cls(object):
    def __repr__(self):
        os.system('cls')
        return ''
cls = _cls()

Now when you type
cls
it clears the screen.  The only flaw is that there is a blank line at 
the very top of the screen, and the ">>>" prompt appears on the SECOND 
line.
(This blank line is because the IDLE prints the blank value returned by 
"return ''" and adds a newline to it, as it does when printing the value 
of any expression.)


Best wishes
Rob Cliffe
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RE: From JoyceUlysses.txt -- words occurring exactly once

[AVI GROSS via Python-list]

ython-list  On 
Behalf Of Thomas Passin via Python-list
Sent: Saturday, June 8, 2024 1:10 PM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: From JoyceUlysses.txt -- words occurring exactly once

On 6/8/2024 11:54 AM, Larry Martell via Python-list wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 8, 2024 at 10:39 AM Mats Wichmann via Python-list <
> python-list@python.org> wrote:
> 
>> On 6/5/24 05:10, Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote:
>>
>>> Of course, we see this lack of clarity all the time in questions to the
>>> list.  I often wonder how these askers can possibly come up with
>>> acceptable code if they don't realize they don't truly know what it's
>>> supposed to do.
>>
>> Fortunately, having to explain to someone else why something is giving
>> you trouble can help shed light on the fact the problem statement isn't
>> clear, or isn't clearly understood. Sometimes (sadly, many times it
>> doesn't).
> 
> 
> The original question struck me as homework or an interview question for a
> junior position. But having no clear requirements or specifications is good
> training for the real world where that is often the case. When you question
> that, you are told to just do something, and then you’re told it’s not what
> is wanted. That frustrates people but it’s often part of the process.
> People need to see something to help them know what they really want.

At the extremes, there are two kinds of approaches you are alluding to. 
One is what I learned to call "rock management": "Bring me a rock ... 
no, that's not the right one, bring me another ... no that's not what 
I'm looking for, bring me another...".  If this is your situation, so, 
so sorry!

At the other end, there is a mutual evolution of the requirements 
because you and your client could not have known what they should be 
until you have spent effort and time feeling your way along.  With the 
right client and management, this kind of project can be a joy to work 
on.  I've been lucky enough to have worked on several projects of this kind.

In truth, there always are requirements.  Often (usually?) they are not 
thought out, not consistent, not articulated clearly, and not 
communicated well. They may live only in the mind of one person.

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Re: From JoyceUlysses.txt -- words occurring exactly once

[Thomas Passin via Python-list]

On 6/8/2024 11:54 AM, Larry Martell via Python-list wrote:

On Sat, Jun 8, 2024 at 10:39 AM Mats Wichmann via Python-list <
python-list@python.org> wrote:


On 6/5/24 05:10, Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote:


Of course, we see this lack of clarity all the time in questions to the
list.  I often wonder how these askers can possibly come up with
acceptable code if they don't realize they don't truly know what it's
supposed to do.


Fortunately, having to explain to someone else why something is giving
you trouble can help shed light on the fact the problem statement isn't
clear, or isn't clearly understood. Sometimes (sadly, many times it
doesn't).



The original question struck me as homework or an interview question for a
junior position. But having no clear requirements or specifications is good
training for the real world where that is often the case. When you question
that, you are told to just do something, and then you’re told it’s not what
is wanted. That frustrates people but it’s often part of the process.
People need to see something to help them know what they really want.


At the extremes, there are two kinds of approaches you are alluding to. 
One is what I learned to call "rock management": "Bring me a rock ... 
no, that's not the right one, bring me another ... no that's not what 
I'm looking for, bring me another...".  If this is your situation, so, 
so sorry!


At the other end, there is a mutual evolution of the requirements 
because you and your client could not have known what they should be 
until you have spent effort and time feeling your way along.  With the 
right client and management, this kind of project can be a joy to work 
on.  I've been lucky enough to have worked on several projects of this kind.


In truth, there always are requirements.  Often (usually?) they are not 
thought out, not consistent, not articulated clearly, and not 
communicated well. They may live only in the mind of one person.


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Re: From JoyceUlysses.txt -- words occurring exactly once

[Larry Martell via Python-list]

On Sat, Jun 8, 2024 at 10:39 AM Mats Wichmann via Python-list <
python-list@python.org> wrote:

> On 6/5/24 05:10, Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote:
>
> > Of course, we see this lack of clarity all the time in questions to the
> > list.  I often wonder how these askers can possibly come up with
> > acceptable code if they don't realize they don't truly know what it's
> > supposed to do.
>
> Fortunately, having to explain to someone else why something is giving
> you trouble can help shed light on the fact the problem statement isn't
> clear, or isn't clearly understood. Sometimes (sadly, many times it
> doesn't).


The original question struck me as homework or an interview question for a
junior position. But having no clear requirements or specifications is good
training for the real world where that is often the case. When you question
that, you are told to just do something, and then you’re told it’s not what
is wanted. That frustrates people but it’s often part of the process.
People need to see something to help them know what they really want.

>
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Re: From JoyceUlysses.txt -- words occurring exactly once

[Mats Wichmann via Python-list]

On 6/5/24 05:10, Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote:

Of course, we see this lack of clarity all the time in questions to the 
list.  I often wonder how these askers can possibly come up with 
acceptable code if they don't realize they don't truly know what it's 
supposed to do.


Fortunately, having to explain to someone else why something is giving 
you trouble can help shed light on the fact the problem statement isn't 
clear, or isn't clearly understood. Sometimes (sadly, many times it 
doesn't).


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Re: From JoyceUlysses.txt -- words occurring exactly once

[Thomas Passin via Python-list]

On 6/5/2024 12:33 AM, dn via Python-list wrote:

On 31/05/24 14:26, HenHanna via Python-list wrote:

On 5/30/2024 2:18 PM, dn wrote:

On 31/05/24 08:03, HenHanna via Python-list wrote:


Given a text file of a novel (JoyceUlysses.txt) ...

could someone give me a pretty fast (and simple) Python program 
that'd give me a list of all words occurring exactly once?


   -- Also, a list of words occurring once, twice or 3 
times




re: hyphenated words    (you can treat it anyway you like)

    but ideally, i'd treat  [editor-in-chief]
    [go-ahead]  [pen-knife]
    [know-how]  [far-fetched] ...
    as one unit.





Split into words - defined as you will.
Use Counter.

Show some (of your) code and we'll be happy to critique...



hard to decide what to do with hyphens
    and apostrophes
  (I'd,  he's,  can't, haven't,  A's  and  B's)


2-step-Process

   1. make a file listing all words (one word per line)

   2.  then, doing the counting.  using
   from collections import Counter



Apologies for lateness - only just able to come back to this.

This issue is not Python, and is not solved by code!

If you/your teacher can't define a "word", the code, any code, will 
almost-certainly be wrong!



One of the interesting aspects of our work is that we can write all 
manner of tests to try to ensure that the code is correct: unit tests, 
integration tests, system tests, acceptance tests, eye-tests, ...


However, there is no such thing as a test (or proof) that statements of 
requirements are complete or correct!

(nor for any other previous stages of the full project life-cycle)

As coders we need to learn to require clear specifications and not 
attempt to read-between-the-lines, use our initiative, or otherwise 'not 
bother the ...'. When there is ambiguity, we should go back to the 
user/client/boss and seek clarification. They are the 
domain/subject-matter experts...


I'm reminded of a cartoon, possibly from some IBM source, first seen in 
black-and-white but here in living-color: 
https://www.monolithic.org/blogs/presidents-sphere/what-the-customer-really-wants


That one's been kicking around for years ... good job in finding a link 
for it!


That has been the sad history of programming and dev.projects - wherein 
we are blamed for every short-coming, because no-one else understands 
the nuances of development projects.


Of course, we see this lack of clarity all the time in questions to the 
list.  I often wonder how these askers can possibly come up with 
acceptable code if they don't realize they don't truly know what it's 
supposed to do.



If we don't insist on clarity, are we our own worst enemy?




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Re: Fwd: IDLE: clearing the screen

[Rob Cliffe via Python-list]

On 05/06/2024 04:09, Cameron Simpson wrote:

On 04Jun2024 22:43, Rob Cliffe  wrote:

import os
def cls(): x=os.system("cls")

Now whenever you type
cls()
it will clear the screen and show the prompt at the top of the screen.

(The reason for the "x=" is: os.system returns a result, in this case 
0.  When you evaluate an expression in the IDE, the IDE prints the 
result.  So without the "x=" you get an extra line at the top of the 
screen containing "0".)


Not if it's in a function, because the IDLE prints the result if it 
isn't None, and your function returns None. So:


    def cls():
    os.system("cls")

should be just fine.


Yes, you're right.
Rob Cliffe

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Re: From JoyceUlysses.txt -- words occurring exactly once

[Grant Edwards via Python-list]

On 2024-06-05, dn via Python-list  wrote:

> If you/your teacher can't define a "word", the code, any code, will 
> almost-certainly be wrong!

Back when I was a student...

When there was a homework/project assignemnt with a vague requirement
(and it wasn't practical to get the requirement refined), what always
worked for me was to put in the project report or program comments or
somewhere a statement that the requirement could be interpreted in
different ways and here is the precise interpretation of the
requirement that is being implemented.



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Re: From JoyceUlysses.txt -- words occurring exactly once

[dn via Python-list]

On 31/05/24 14:26, HenHanna via Python-list wrote:

On 5/30/2024 2:18 PM, dn wrote:

On 31/05/24 08:03, HenHanna via Python-list wrote:


Given a text file of a novel (JoyceUlysses.txt) ...

could someone give me a pretty fast (and simple) Python program 
that'd give me a list of all words occurring exactly once?


   -- Also, a list of words occurring once, twice or 3 times



re: hyphenated words    (you can treat it anyway you like)

    but ideally, i'd treat  [editor-in-chief]
    [go-ahead]  [pen-knife]
    [know-how]  [far-fetched] ...
    as one unit.





Split into words - defined as you will.
Use Counter.

Show some (of your) code and we'll be happy to critique...



hard to decide what to do with hyphens
    and apostrophes
  (I'd,  he's,  can't, haven't,  A's  and  B's)


2-step-Process

   1. make a file listing all words (one word per line)

   2.  then, doing the counting.  using
   from collections import Counter



Apologies for lateness - only just able to come back to this.

This issue is not Python, and is not solved by code!

If you/your teacher can't define a "word", the code, any code, will 
almost-certainly be wrong!



One of the interesting aspects of our work is that we can write all 
manner of tests to try to ensure that the code is correct: unit tests, 
integration tests, system tests, acceptance tests, eye-tests, ...


However, there is no such thing as a test (or proof) that statements of 
requirements are complete or correct!

(nor for any other previous stages of the full project life-cycle)

As coders we need to learn to require clear specifications and not 
attempt to read-between-the-lines, use our initiative, or otherwise 'not 
bother the ...'. When there is ambiguity, we should go back to the 
user/client/boss and seek clarification. They are the 
domain/subject-matter experts...


I'm reminded of a cartoon, possibly from some IBM source, first seen in 
black-and-white but here in living-color: 
https://www.monolithic.org/blogs/presidents-sphere/what-the-customer-really-wants


That has been the sad history of programming and dev.projects - wherein 
we are blamed for every short-coming, because no-one else understands 
the nuances of development projects.


If we don't insist on clarity, are we our own worst enemy?


--
Regards,
=dn
--
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Re: Fwd: IDLE: clearing the screen

[Cameron Simpson via Python-list]

On 04Jun2024 22:43, Rob Cliffe  wrote:

import os
def cls(): x=os.system("cls")

Now whenever you type
cls()
it will clear the screen and show the prompt at the top of the screen.

(The reason for the "x=" is: os.system returns a result, in this case 
0.  When you evaluate an expression in the IDE, the IDE prints the 
result.  So without the "x=" you get an extra line at the top of the 
screen containing "0".)


Not if it's in a function, because the IDLE prints the result if it 
isn't None, and your function returns None. So:


def cls():
os.system("cls")

should be just fine.
--
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Re: From JoyceUlysses.txt -- words occurring exactly once

[Chris Angelico via Python-list]

On Wed, 5 Jun 2024 at 02:49, Edward Teach via Python-list
 wrote:
>
> On Mon, 03 Jun 2024 14:58:26 -0400 (EDT)
> Grant Edwards  wrote:
>
> > On 2024-06-03, Edward Teach via Python-list 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > The Gutenburg Project publishes "plain text".  That's another
> > > problem, because "plain text" means UTF-8and that means
> > > unicode...and that means running some sort of unicode-to-ascii
> > > conversion in order to get something like "words".  A couple of
> > > hoursa couple of hundred lines of Cproblem solved!
> >
> > I'm curious.  Why does it need to be converted frum Unicode to ASCII?
> >
> > When you read it into Python, it gets converted right back to
> > Unicode...
> >
>
> Well.when using the file linux.words as a useful master list of
> "words".linux.words is strict ASCII
>

Whatever gave you that idea? I have a large number of dictionaries in
/usr/share/dict, all of them encoded UTF-8 except one (and I don't
know why that is). Even the English ones aren't entirely ASCII.

There is no need to "convert from Unicode to ASCII", which makes no sense.

ChrisA
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RE: From JoyceUlysses.txt -- words occurring exactly once

[AVI GROSS via Python-list]

>> Well.when using the file linux.words as a useful master list of
>> "words".linux.words is strict ASCII

The meaning of "words" depends on the context. The contents of the file
mentioned are a minor attempt to capture a common subset of words in English
but probably are not what you mean by words in other contexts including
words also in ASCII format  like names and especially uncommon names or
words like UNESCO. There are other selected lists of words such as valid
Scrabble words or WORLDLE words for specialized purposes that exclude words
of lengths that can not be used. The person looking to count words in a work
must determine what words make sense for their purpose.

ASCII is a small subset of UNICODE. So when using a concept of word that
includes many characters from many character sets, and in many languages,
things may not be easy to parse uniquely such as words containing something
like an apostrophe earlier on as in d'eau. Words can flow in different
directions. There can be fairly complex rules and sometimes things like
compound words may need to be considered to either be one or multiple words
and may even occur both ways in the same work so is every body the same as
everybody?

So what is being discussed here may have several components. One is to
tokenize all the text to make a set of categories. Another is to count them.
Perhaps another might even analyze and combine multiple categories or even
look at words in context to determine if two uses of the same word are
different enough to try to keep both apart in two categories Is polish the
same as Polish?

Once that is decided, you have a fairly simple exercise in storing the data
in a searchable data structure and doing your searches to get subsets and
counts and so on.

As mentioned, the default native format in Python is UNICODE and ASCII files
being read in may well be UNICODE internally unless you carefully ask
otherwise. The conversion from ASCII to UNICODE is trivial. 

As for how well the regular expressions like \w work in general, I have no
idea. I can be very sure they are way more costly than the simpler ones you
can write that just know enough about what English words in ASCII look like
and perhaps get it wrong on some edge cases.


-Original Message-
From: Python-list  On
Behalf Of Edward Teach via Python-list
Sent: Tuesday, June 4, 2024 7:22 AM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: From JoyceUlysses.txt -- words occurring exactly once

On Mon, 03 Jun 2024 14:58:26 -0400 (EDT)
Grant Edwards  wrote:

> On 2024-06-03, Edward Teach via Python-list 
> wrote:
> 
> > The Gutenburg Project publishes "plain text".  That's another
> > problem, because "plain text" means UTF-8and that means
> > unicode...and that means running some sort of unicode-to-ascii
> > conversion in order to get something like "words".  A couple of
> > hoursa couple of hundred lines of Cproblem solved!  
> 
> I'm curious.  Why does it need to be converted frum Unicode to ASCII?
> 
> When you read it into Python, it gets converted right back to
> Unicode...
> 
> 
> 

Well.when using the file linux.words as a useful master list of
"words".linux.words is strict ASCII

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Re: From JoyceUlysses.txt -- words occurring exactly once

[Grant Edwards via Python-list]

On 2024-06-04, Edward Teach via Python-list  wrote:
> On Mon, 03 Jun 2024 14:58:26 -0400 (EDT)
> Grant Edwards  wrote:
>
>> On 2024-06-03, Edward Teach via Python-list 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> > The Gutenburg Project publishes "plain text".  That's another
>> > problem, because "plain text" means UTF-8and that means
>> > unicode...and that means running some sort of unicode-to-ascii
>> > conversion in order to get something like "words".  A couple of
>> > hoursa couple of hundred lines of Cproblem solved!  
>> 
>> I'm curious.  Why does it need to be converted frum Unicode to ASCII?
>> 
>> When you read it into Python, it gets converted right back to
>> Unicode...

> Well.when using the file linux.words as a useful master list of
> "words".linux.words is strict ASCII

I guess I missed the part of the problem description where it said to
use linux.words to decide what a word is. :)

--
Grant


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Re: From JoyceUlysses.txt -- words occurring exactly once

[Edward Teach via Python-list]

On Mon, 03 Jun 2024 14:58:26 -0400 (EDT)
Grant Edwards  wrote:

> On 2024-06-03, Edward Teach via Python-list 
> wrote:
> 
> > The Gutenburg Project publishes "plain text".  That's another
> > problem, because "plain text" means UTF-8and that means
> > unicode...and that means running some sort of unicode-to-ascii
> > conversion in order to get something like "words".  A couple of
> > hoursa couple of hundred lines of Cproblem solved!  
> 
> I'm curious.  Why does it need to be converted frum Unicode to ASCII?
> 
> When you read it into Python, it gets converted right back to
> Unicode...
> 
> 
> 

Well.when using the file linux.words as a useful master list of
"words".linux.words is strict ASCII

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Re: From JoyceUlysses.txt -- words occurring exactly once

[Dieter Maurer via Python-list]

Edward Teach wrote at 2024-6-3 10:47 +0100:
> ...
>The Gutenburg Project publishes "plain text".  That's another problem,
>because "plain text" means UTF-8and that means unicode...and that
>means running some sort of unicode-to-ascii conversion in order to get
>something like "words".  A couple of hoursa couple of hundred lines
>of Cproblem solved!

Unicode supports the notion "owrd" even better "ASCII".
For example, the `\w` (word charavter) regular expression wild card,
works for Unicode like for ASCII (of course with enhanced letter,
digits, punctuation, etc.)
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Re: From JoyceUlysses.txt -- words occurring exactly once

[Grant Edwards via Python-list]

On 2024-06-03, Edward Teach via Python-list  wrote:

> The Gutenburg Project publishes "plain text".  That's another
> problem, because "plain text" means UTF-8and that means
> unicode...and that means running some sort of unicode-to-ascii
> conversion in order to get something like "words".  A couple of
> hoursa couple of hundred lines of Cproblem solved!

I'm curious.  Why does it need to be converted frum Unicode to ASCII?

When you read it into Python, it gets converted right back to Unicode...



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