Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Rustom Mody rustompm...@gmail.com: I really dont understand what we are communicating (or not) about... Can you hear my accent? If we met at a Python conference, I would hear it and hopefully even understand it. But more to the point its still not clear (to me) whether you are objecting to - to Mark - to British accent - to British spellings in software - to anyone/anywhere international, using non-international format I'm objecting (mildly) to British spellings in source code and technical documentation. I'm objecting (more strongly) to local English accents in settings including but not limited to: - conference speeches with international audiences - group discussions with international participants - teleconferences with international participants In my experience, it is harder to understand most British English accents than, say, a run-of-the-mill Chinese engineer trying to speak English. It has to do with pronunciation, speed and eloquence (too much of it with native speakers). Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Fri, 06 Mar 2015 08:31:40 +, Mark Lawrence wrote: On 06/03/2015 08:00, Rustom Mody wrote: On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 10:49:54 AM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: Rustom Mody: You keep talking of accent. At first I thought you were using the word figuratively or else joking. Im now beginning to wonder if you mean it literally. If so have you patented a new AOIP protocol? If not do you give tuitions¹ in ESP/telepathy/Voodoo? I'll be happy to paywink Where I work, people do use voice still occasionally to communicate. I really dont understand what we are communicating (or not) about... Can you hear my accent? I certainly cant hear yours If you are talking of accent (aural/physical just to be clear) of your co-workers how is that more on-topic or relevant to this list than the weather in Finland. [Yeah its been freakish weather out here for the last 10 days -- global warming? And is global warming on topic for this list?] Just to be clear -- I am going to be one of the tail-enders complaining about on/off-topicness. But someone or other will complain I guess. If on the other hand you are being slightly metaphorical and using 'accent' to talk of (say) Mark's britishisms¹ then please disambiguate for better communication. But more to the point its still not clear (to me) whether you are objecting to - to Mark - to British accent British accent, Christmas is early this year so ho, ho, ho. Nobody in this country ever guesses where I was born and bred, they all think I'm from the South West or the West Country. Irish, Scottish, Welsh, English alone are different. Most foreigners wouldn't have a dog's chance in hell of understanding a Geordie or a Glaswegian. Move 50 miles and you can hear a completely different accent. British accent indeed. Foreigner? I can barely understand a Geordie accent I am English. whilst I agree to a point with Marco that when talking to a forigner you should take care to speak clearly for them the suggestion that American pronunciation is what I find unacceptable. even though I can (and do) watch American TV shows reasonably easily some of their pronunciations seriously grate on my nerves :- Bouy - it is pounced Boy not bo-ey! chasis - it has a soft Ch not a hard Ch, Aluminium, Heck they don't even sell it correctly ;-) - to British spellings in software - to anyone/anywhere international, using non-international format ¹Personally I find Mark's britishisms sometimes funny eg I found this https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.python/EfloMHB3DjQ/ ZdY3Vn_6rpsJ hilarious even though I could not decipher more than 70% of the british accent. Sometimes though I find it irrelevant/unnecessary/undecipherable. Personally I am not going to object to him nor am I going to object to anyone objecting to him. Anybody objecting about me will be accused by me of discrimination against autistic people. Now there is a not very subtle hint that might penetrate one or two of the thicker skins on the thicker heads that participate here. Thankfully the numbers of such people are extremely small or we could have had WWIII. Which could have happened when Global Crossing bought Racal Telecommunications and tried to stop us Brits using our kettles to make our cuppas. Now that is seriously brain dead. And they turned out to be a bit naughty with the books :( -- All my life I wanted to be someone; I guess I should have been more specific. -- Jane Wagner -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Fri, 6 Mar 2015 00:00:28 -0800 (PST), Rustom Mody rustompm...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 10:49:54 AM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: Rustom Mody: You keep talking of accent. At first I thought you were using the word figuratively or else joking. Im now beginning to wonder if you mean it literally. If so have you patented a new AOIP protocol? If not do you give tuitions¹ in ESP/telepathy/Voodoo? I'll be happy to paywink Where I work, people do use voice still occasionally to communicate. I really dont understand what we are communicating (or not) about... Can you hear my accent? I certainly cant hear yours And if I call a Python list books, is Python going to complain about my accent? Really? -- Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Friday, March 6, 2015 at 2:03:42 AM UTC-8, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: Rustom Mody rustompm...@gmail.com: I really dont understand what we are communicating (or not) about... Can you hear my accent? If we met at a Python conference, I would hear it and hopefully even understand it. But more to the point its still not clear (to me) whether you are objecting to - to Mark - to British accent - to British spellings in software - to anyone/anywhere international, using non-international format I'm objecting (mildly) to British spellings in source code and technical documentation. I'm objecting (more strongly) to local English accents in settings including but not limited to: - conference speeches with international audiences - group discussions with international participants - teleconferences with international participants In my experience, it is harder to understand most British English accents than, say, a run-of-the-mill Chinese engineer trying to speak English. It has to do with pronunciation, speed and eloquence (too much of it with native speakers). Marko It's obvious that's what's needed here is a PEP requiring that the International Phonetic Alphabet be used for all Python identifiers and keywords. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Mark Lawrence breamore...@yahoo.co.uk: British accent, Christmas is early this year so ho, ho, ho. Nobody in this country ever guesses where I was born and bred, they all think I'm from the South West or the West Country. Irish, Scottish, Welsh, English alone are different. Most foreigners wouldn't have a dog's chance in hell of understanding a Geordie or a Glaswegian. Move 50 miles and you can hear a completely different accent. British accent indeed. The accents on the British isles are indeed much more diverse than in the colonies. They can also be very hard to understand, sometimes for native English-speakers as well. Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
llanitedave llanited...@birdandflower.com: It's obvious that's what's needed here is a PEP requiring that the International Phonetic Alphabet be used for all Python identifiers and keywords. You're onto something: #!/ˈjuːzəɹ/bɪn/ɛnv ˈpaɪˌθɑːn3 # -*- ˈkoʊdɪŋ: ˌjuːˌtiːˌɛf-ˈ8 -*- ˈɪmpoɹt loʊˈkæl dɛf meɪn(): tɹaɪ: ɹeɪz ˈVæljuːˈƐɹəɹ() ɪkˈsɛpt ˈVæljuːˈƐɹəɹ: tɹaɪ: ɹeɪz ˈAɪOʊˈƐɹəɹ() ˈfaɪnli: ɹeɪz ɪf __neɪm__ == __meɪn__: tɹaɪ: meɪn() ɪkˈsɛpt ˈVæljuːˈƐɹəɹ: pɹɪnt(Həˈloʊ) Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Am 06.03.15 um 19:15 schrieb Marko Rauhamaa: llanitedave llanited...@birdandflower.com: It's obvious that's what's needed here is a PEP requiring that the International Phonetic Alphabet be used for all Python identifiers and keywords. You're onto something: ROFL!!! Though I'd prefer a few identifiers in a different way; I think you can drop many of the ɹ, e.g. #!/ˈjuːzəɹ/bɪn/ɛnv ˈpaɪˌθɑːn3 # -*- ˈkoʊdɪŋ: ˌjuːˌtiːˌɛf-ˈ8 -*- ˈɪmpoɹt loʊˈkæl ɪmˈpɔːt ˈləʊkl British accent saves bytes!! SCNR dɛf meɪn(): tɹaɪ: ɹeɪz ˈVæljuːˈƐɹəɹ() ɪkˈsɛpt ˈVæljuːˈƐɹəɹ: tɹaɪ: ɹeɪz ˈAɪOʊˈƐɹəɹ() ˈfaɪnli: ɹeɪz ɪf __neɪm__ == __meɪn__: tɹaɪ: meɪn() ɪkˈsɛpt ˈVæljuːˈƐɹəɹ: pɹɪnt(Həˈloʊ) Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 10:49:54 AM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: Rustom Mody: You keep talking of accent. At first I thought you were using the word figuratively or else joking. Im now beginning to wonder if you mean it literally. If so have you patented a new AOIP protocol? If not do you give tuitions¹ in ESP/telepathy/Voodoo? I'll be happy to paywink Where I work, people do use voice still occasionally to communicate. I really dont understand what we are communicating (or not) about... Can you hear my accent? I certainly cant hear yours If you are talking of accent (aural/physical just to be clear) of your co-workers how is that more on-topic or relevant to this list than the weather in Finland. [Yeah its been freakish weather out here for the last 10 days -- global warming? And is global warming on topic for this list?] Just to be clear -- I am going to be one of the tail-enders complaining about on/off-topicness. But someone or other will complain I guess. If on the other hand you are being slightly metaphorical and using 'accent' to talk of (say) Mark's britishisms¹ then please disambiguate for better communication. But more to the point its still not clear (to me) whether you are objecting to - to Mark - to British accent - to British spellings in software - to anyone/anywhere international, using non-international format ¹Personally I find Mark's britishisms sometimes funny eg I found this https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.python/EfloMHB3DjQ/ZdY3Vn_6rpsJ hilarious even though I could not decipher more than 70% of the british accent. Sometimes though I find it irrelevant/unnecessary/undecipherable. Personally I am not going to object to him nor am I going to object to anyone objecting to him. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On 06/03/2015 08:00, Rustom Mody wrote: On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 10:49:54 AM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: Rustom Mody: You keep talking of accent. At first I thought you were using the word figuratively or else joking. Im now beginning to wonder if you mean it literally. If so have you patented a new AOIP protocol? If not do you give tuitions¹ in ESP/telepathy/Voodoo? I'll be happy to paywink Where I work, people do use voice still occasionally to communicate. I really dont understand what we are communicating (or not) about... Can you hear my accent? I certainly cant hear yours If you are talking of accent (aural/physical just to be clear) of your co-workers how is that more on-topic or relevant to this list than the weather in Finland. [Yeah its been freakish weather out here for the last 10 days -- global warming? And is global warming on topic for this list?] Just to be clear -- I am going to be one of the tail-enders complaining about on/off-topicness. But someone or other will complain I guess. If on the other hand you are being slightly metaphorical and using 'accent' to talk of (say) Mark's britishisms¹ then please disambiguate for better communication. But more to the point its still not clear (to me) whether you are objecting to - to Mark - to British accent British accent, Christmas is early this year so ho, ho, ho. Nobody in this country ever guesses where I was born and bred, they all think I'm from the South West or the West Country. Irish, Scottish, Welsh, English alone are different. Most foreigners wouldn't have a dog's chance in hell of understanding a Geordie or a Glaswegian. Move 50 miles and you can hear a completely different accent. British accent indeed. - to British spellings in software - to anyone/anywhere international, using non-international format ¹Personally I find Mark's britishisms sometimes funny eg I found this https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.python/EfloMHB3DjQ/ZdY3Vn_6rpsJ hilarious even though I could not decipher more than 70% of the british accent. Sometimes though I find it irrelevant/unnecessary/undecipherable. Personally I am not going to object to him nor am I going to object to anyone objecting to him. Anybody objecting about me will be accused by me of discrimination against autistic people. Now there is a not very subtle hint that might penetrate one or two of the thicker skins on the thicker heads that participate here. Thankfully the numbers of such people are extremely small or we could have had WWIII. Which could have happened when Global Crossing bought Racal Telecommunications and tried to stop us Brits using our kettles to make our cuppas. Now that is seriously brain dead. And they turned out to be a bit naughty with the books :( -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On 05/03/2015 03:38, Rustom Mody wrote: On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 1:03:13 AM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: Steven D'Aprano: Care to enlighten us then? Because your anecdote doesn't appear to have even the most tenuous relationship to this discussion. Even more important, when you talk about Python or other computer stuff to a non-English-speaker, try to emulate the accent most people around the world are most familiar with, American English. If you find that overwhelming, try to speak like a BBC newsreader. Your native accent can be very difficult to understand. You keep talking of accent. At first I thought you were using the word figuratively or else joking. Im now beginning to wonder if you mean it literally. If so have you patented a new AOIP protocol? If not do you give tuitions¹ in ESP/telepathy/Voodoo? I'll be happy to paywink -- ¹GG is red-lining tuitions -- heh! I like the idea of some visitor to Scotland mentioning some speaker's English accent. I'm not so keen on the idea of the said visitor being introduced to the Scottish handshake. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Wed, 04 Mar 2015 21:33:01 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa ma...@pacujo.net wrote: Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info: Care to enlighten us then? Because your anecdote doesn't appear to have even the most tenuous relationship to this discussion. English-speaker, when you name things in your Python programs, you had better stick to American spellings. Even more important, when you talk about Python or other computer stuff to a non-English-speaker, try to emulate the accent most people around the world are most familiar with, American English. If you find that overwhelming, try to speak like a BBC newsreader. Your native accent can be very difficult to understand. Are things named in Python named with an accent? Can you tell what my accent is like when I write in this newsgroup? -- Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Steve Hayes hayes...@telkomsa.net: On Wed, 04 Mar 2015 21:33:01 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa ma...@pacujo.net English-speaker, when you name things in your Python programs, you had better stick to American spellings. Even more important, when you talk about Python or other computer stuff to a non-English-speaker, try to emulate the accent most people around the world are most familiar with, American English. If you find that overwhelming, try to speak like a BBC newsreader. Your native accent can be very difficult to understand. Are things named in Python named with an accent? Can you tell what my accent is like when I write in this newsgroup? It's clear my accent is clouding my message. Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Thu, 05 Mar 2015 07:19:42 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa ma...@pacujo.net wrote: Where I work, people do use voice still occasionally to communicate. Communications skills... the bane of any software developer. Pronunciation is just another obstacle to cross on top of the natural barrier that is transmitting complex computer science ideas through natural language. An ascii file with some code does a much better job at that. Most bugs start in a our mouths, no matter how many times we brush our teeth. In any case, communication is a two-way process. If you can't understand British accent, you should make an effort to do so. It will enrich your communication skills and that is an important skill to have. Might even land you a better job. If instead you prefer to demand british people to speak in your accent, because you are in your country and people should speak with your accent and all that bullshit, and you can't understand them and they should make an effort, waa-waa, that is fine. I'm sure you are otherwise a a friendly and communicative character. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Mario Figueiredo mar...@gmail.com: If instead you prefer to demand british people to speak in your accent, because you are in your country I'm in Finland, mind you. Finnish (the Häme dialect, specifically) is my native language. I'm not suggesting my international coworkers should address me in my language, let alone my home dialect. Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Mario Figueiredo mar...@gmail.com: Care to summarize then? Because the one thing I'm seeing is your assertion that people should write identifiers in a more standard way following an us-eng dialect and you jab at the British by accusing them of being more resistant to this than non-english speakers (which is just a blanket statement). I don't remember jabbing at anybody. It is fact (proudly proclaimed on this forum as well) that most English-speakers believe their native accents are suitable for international communication. Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Marko Rauhamaa wrote: llanitedave llanited...@birdandflower.com: Seems the ultimate in irony when a language invented by a Dutchman and named after a British comedy troupe gets bogged down in an argument about whether its users are sufficiently American. No, the ultimate irony is that people don't understand what is being talked about. Care to enlighten us then? Because your anecdote doesn't appear to have even the most tenuous relationship to this discussion. Reminds me of a situation decades back when a (Lutheran) Finnish theology professor was suspected of heresy. It went like this: [...] -- Steven -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On 03/04/2015 11:14 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: [...] Wow -- a new level of succinctness! ;) -- ~Ethan~ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info: Care to enlighten us then? Because your anecdote doesn't appear to have even the most tenuous relationship to this discussion. English-speaker, when you name things in your Python programs, you had better stick to American spellings. Even more important, when you talk about Python or other computer stuff to a non-English-speaker, try to emulate the accent most people around the world are most familiar with, American English. If you find that overwhelming, try to speak like a BBC newsreader. Your native accent can be very difficult to understand. Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Marko Rauhamaa wrote: Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info: Care to enlighten us then? Because your anecdote doesn't appear to have even the most tenuous relationship to this discussion. English-speaker, when you name things in your Python programs, you had better stick to American spellings. Even more important, when you talk about Python or other computer stuff to a non-English-speaker, try to emulate the accent most people around the world are most familiar with, American English. If you find that overwhelming, try to speak like a BBC newsreader. Your native accent can be very difficult to understand. Yes, that's exactly what I thought your point was. So I am utterly perplexed why you said: No, the ultimate irony is that people don't understand what is being talked about. and gave an irrelevant anecdote about using a source's claim to divinity as evidence of divinity. It seems to me that people in this thread *do* understand what is being talked about, but just disagree with your conclusion about making American English the mandatory spelling for programs. As for your comments about spoken accents, I sympathise. But changing accents is very hard for most people (although a very few people find it incredibly easy). Even professionals typically need to have voice coaches to teach them to change accents successfully. One of the problems is that most people don't hear their own accent. My wife usually has a fairly generic English accent that most people think is American, but within seconds of beginning to talk to another Irish person she is speaking in a full-blown Irish accent, and she is *completely* unaware of it. -- Steven -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On 04/03/2015 19:33, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info: Care to enlighten us then? Because your anecdote doesn't appear to have even the most tenuous relationship to this discussion. English-speaker, when you name things in your Python programs, you had better stick to American spellings. Even more important, when you talk about Python or other computer stuff to a non-English-speaker, try to emulate the accent most people around the world are most familiar with, American English. If you find that overwhelming, try to speak like a BBC newsreader. Your native accent can be very difficult to understand. Marko This sums up perfectly why you made it onto my dream team so quickly. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On 5 March 2015 at 07:11, Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote: As for your comments about spoken accents, I sympathise. But changing accents is very hard for most people (although a very few people find it incredibly easy). Even professionals typically need to have voice coaches to teach them to change accents successfully. One of the problems is that most people don't hear their own accent. My wife usually has a fairly generic English accent that most people think is American, but within seconds of beginning to talk to another Irish person she is speaking in a full-blown Irish accent, and she is *completely* unaware of it. This is very much the case - any time someone is reacquainted with their native accent they tend to strongly slip back into it, and it takes some time to get their more neutral accent back. A related thing is when you have multiple multi-lingual people talking together where at least two of their languages match (or are close enough for most uses e.g. Spanish and Portuguese). They'll slip in and out of multiple languages depending on which best expresses what they're trying to say, and no one will involved realise. Tim Delaney -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On 3/4/2015 12:40 PM, Tim Delaney wrote: A related thing is when you have multiple multi-lingual people talking together where at least two of their languages match (or are close enough for most uses e.g. Spanish and Portuguese). They'll slip in and out of multiple languages depending on which best expresses what they're trying to say, and no one will involved realise. Except for my poor grandmother who hadn't understood a word my mother had said the previous ten minutes. :) Emile -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 1:03:13 AM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: Steven D'Aprano: Care to enlighten us then? Because your anecdote doesn't appear to have even the most tenuous relationship to this discussion. Even more important, when you talk about Python or other computer stuff to a non-English-speaker, try to emulate the accent most people around the world are most familiar with, American English. If you find that overwhelming, try to speak like a BBC newsreader. Your native accent can be very difficult to understand. You keep talking of accent. At first I thought you were using the word figuratively or else joking. Im now beginning to wonder if you mean it literally. If so have you patented a new AOIP protocol? If not do you give tuitions¹ in ESP/telepathy/Voodoo? I'll be happy to paywink -- ¹GG is red-lining tuitions -- heh! -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On 5 March 2015 at 09:39, Emile van Sebille em...@fenx.com wrote: On 3/4/2015 12:40 PM, Tim Delaney wrote: A related thing is when you have multiple multi-lingual people talking together where at least two of their languages match (or are close enough for most uses e.g. Spanish and Portuguese). They'll slip in and out of multiple languages depending on which best expresses what they're trying to say, and no one will involved realise. Except for my poor grandmother who hadn't understood a word my mother had said the previous ten minutes. :) The phenomenon I'm talking about involves people switching languages mid-sentence without the participants noticing. It mainly occurs with people who grew up speaking multiple languages, and commonly switch between them in their thoughts. If your grandmother learned her second/third/etc languages after she was a teenager then it's likely she mainly thinks in one language and translates to others. It can also be seen with people who have recently had long-term saturation exposure to a second language - for example, exchange students who have just come back from a year's stay. When I'd recently returned from Brasil (20-odd years ago now ...) there was one time when everyone was a native (Australia) english speaker and had a mix of latin-based second languages - that was close enough for it to happen. Tim Delaney -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Rustom Mody rustompm...@gmail.com: You keep talking of accent. At first I thought you were using the word figuratively or else joking. Im now beginning to wonder if you mean it literally. If so have you patented a new AOIP protocol? If not do you give tuitions¹ in ESP/telepathy/Voodoo? I'll be happy to paywink Where I work, people do use voice still occasionally to communicate. Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Wednesday, March 4, 2015 at 6:46:32 PM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: llanitedave : Seems the ultimate in irony when a language invented by a Dutchman and named after a British comedy troupe gets bogged down in an argument about whether its users are sufficiently American. No, the ultimate irony is that people don't understand what is being talked about. Reminds me of a situation decades back when a (Lutheran) Finnish theology professor was suspected of heresy. It went like this: Faithful Crowd: The professor won't accept the truth of the Bible even though the Bible states it is the word of God. Professor: You are saying the Bible is true because it says so. If that is a valid criterion, the Quran is even more obviously true. Faithful Crowd: Did you hear that! The professor's saying the Quran is truer than the Bible! Ha! Ha!! Reminds me of Bertrand Russel's: Man is said to be a logical animal. All my life Ive tried to find evidence of that. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
llanitedave llanited...@birdandflower.com: Seems the ultimate in irony when a language invented by a Dutchman and named after a British comedy troupe gets bogged down in an argument about whether its users are sufficiently American. No, the ultimate irony is that people don't understand what is being talked about. Reminds me of a situation decades back when a (Lutheran) Finnish theology professor was suspected of heresy. It went like this: Faithful Crowd: The professor won't accept the truth of the Bible even though the Bible states it is the word of God. Professor: You are saying the Bible is true because it says so. If that is a valid criterion, the Quran is even more obviously true. Faithful Crowd: Did you hear that! The professor's saying the Quran is truer than the Bible! Marko PS Before you get out your pitchforks, please note that this posting is *not* making a statement on the truth in the Bible and/or the Quran. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Wed, 04 Mar 2015 15:16:18 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa ma...@pacujo.net wrote: No, the ultimate irony is that people don't understand what is being talked about. Care to summarize then? Because the one thing I'm seeing is your assertion that people should write identifiers in a more standard way following an us-eng dialect and you jab at the British by accusing them of being more resistant to this than non-english speakers (which is just a blanket statement). -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Tuesday, March 3, 2015 at 10:02:30 AM UTC+5:30, Mario Figueiredo wrote: On Mon, 2 Mar 2015 19:51:31 -0800 (PST), Rustom Mody wrote: I dont know what you are saying Mario or even whom you are addressing I was replying directly to Marko. I don't think it is possible to establish a standard dialect for variable names in English or any other language. Eh? There was some such suggestion?? All that I saw was suggestions like this: [Of course I may have missed some] Marko: | (Spelling deviations are actually minor nuisances. A bigger problem is | when a Brit thinks they can use their home accent in international | contexts.) It doesn't even make sense as long as the code clearly communicates its intent. Any attempts at standardizing written language are just bound to failure due to natural cultural resistances, but also the way the spoken and written language evolve isn't going ever to agree with some official authority. As for your Thomas Merton quote, it didn't resonate with me. First I find it hilarious that a 20th century catholic monk speaks of people of faith as existing at the margin of society and accepting risk, particularly in the deeply conservative American society. That's a laugh right there. I dont understand what you are saying. Lets say you replace 'conservative' by something more definitively pejorative eg fundamentalist, backward etc Now replace 'American society' by 'Nazi Germany' Do you believe that everyone who was not a Jew was a Nazi? In actual fact I believe you would have found people on all points of the spectrum between Full cooperation with the machinery to active resistance to the point of endangering one's existence Likewise it seems only fair to acknowledge that Fr Thomas Merton seems to have had all sorts of difficulties trying to follow his vocation and that quote more or less reflects his difficulties. Of course you are welcome to your own individual allergic reactions. Some people need to be hospitalized if they eat one peanut. Likewise some people seem to stop hearing anything if some religion-associating word like 'God' appears. Generalizing from specific instance to paradigm is always a dicey business. Now personally I suffer no allergy to the word 'God' but in my younger days I suffered violent reaction to 'pop music' in particular the distortion of an electric guitar. Many years older and (hopefully!) wiser I find that the electric guitar captures Beethoven better than the official version see the two youtube clips at beginning of http://blog.languager.org/2011/02/cs-education-is-fat-and-weak-3.html A similar situation obtains (I believe!) vis-a-vis generic 'Christian priest' vs specific instance Thomas Merton -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Seems the ultimate in irony when a language invented by a Dutchman and named after a British comedy troupe gets bogged down in an argument about whether its users are sufficiently American. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Mark Lawrence breamore...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: I can assure you that in a veterinary sence, Yersey cows will produce a milk with higher fat content. Yersey? Eh, Jersey. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Chris Angelico wrote: And I've seen a number of proposals to build Python with its *keywords* localized. While there is a reasonable limit to this (for instance, I wouldn't expect the disassembly of CPython byte-code to have STORE_FAST translated into another language), there's nothing wrong with programmers being able to write their code in their languages. Just for fun, I used Google Translate to turn a piece of my Python code into French. Some of the results were rather amusing. For example, it turned mess (short for message) into désordre, and but (short for button) into mais. It got for, in, if, else and return right, though! # Original code def ask(mess, responses = [OK, Cancel], default = 0, cancel = -1, wrap_width = 60, **kwds): box = Dialog(**kwds) d = box.margin lb = wrapped_label(mess, wrap_width) lb.topleft = (d, d) buts = [] for caption in responses: but = Button(caption, action = lambda x = caption: box.dismiss(x)) buts.append(but) brow = Row(buts, spacing = d, equalize = 'w') lb.width = max(lb.width, brow.width) col = Column([lb, brow], spacing = d, align ='r') col.topleft = (d, d) if default is not None: box.enter_response = responses[default] else: box.enter_response = None if cancel is not None: box.cancel_response = responses[cancel] else: box.cancel_response = None box.add(col) box.shrink_wrap() return box.present() # Translated code demander def (désordre, réponses = [OK, Annuler], par défaut = 0, annulent = -1, wrap_width = 60, kwds **): boîte de dialogue = (** kwds) d = box.margin lb = wrapped_label (désordre, wrap_width) lb.topleft = (d, d) BUTS = [] pour la légende dans les réponses: mais = Bouton (légende, action = lambda x = légende: box.dismiss (x)) buts.append (mais) Brow = ROW (buts, l'espacement = d, égalisent = 'W') lb.width = max (lb.width, brow.width) col = Colonne ([lb, le front], l'espacement = d, align = 'r') col.topleft = (d, d) si par défaut ne est pas None: box.enter_response = réponses [défaut] d'autre: box.enter_response = Aucun si annuler ne est pas None: box.cancel_response = réponses [Annuler] d'autre: box.cancel_response = Aucun box.add (col) box.shrink_wrap () retourner box.present () -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Tue, 03 Mar 2015 03:00:30 -0800, Rustom Mody wrote: I dont understand what you are saying. Lets say you replace 'conservative' by something more definitively pejorative eg fundamentalist, backward etc Now replace 'American society' by 'Nazi Germany' finally we can call Godwins on this thread -- You may be sure that when a man begins to call himself a realist, he is preparing to do something he is secretly ashamed of doing. -- Sydney Harris -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Op 02-03-15 om 15:39 schreef Steven D'Aprano: Marko Rauhamaa wrote: alister alister.nospam.w...@ntlworld.com: or as another analogy why don't you (Marco) try telling a Barber in Seville that he should be speaking Latin Spanish not that strange variation he uses? If the barber conference language were Latin, and some Spaniard insisted on speaking Western Andalusian, I sure would consider that obnoxious. Similarly, I've heard some Finnish representatives in the Nordic Council complain how the Danish insist on speaking Danish. The official language there is Swedish. I'm reminded of the British Prime Minister David Lloyd George, who apparently made a habit of answering difficult or embarrassing questions in parliament in his native Welsh. I suspect the reaction you get will be far more severe than the one you are getting from we English ( Brits) I don't understand your reaction. The rest of us are willing to walk a mile (say, Finnish - American English) and you are up in arms about having to shift a foot (say, Scouse - American English). Not one inch! Sometimes the small differences are more important than the big. Your Finnishness is not threatened by learning English, any more than Mark's Britishness would be threatened by him learning Russian. [Now there's a thought... with the historical relationships between Finland and Russia, I wonder whether Finns would be as blasé about using a foreign language if it were Russian rather than English? But I digress.] Whereas the comparatively small differences between British and American English are all the more important because they distinguish the two. Nobody is ever going to mistake Finland and the Finish people for Americans, even if you learn to speak American English. But for Britons to use American English is, in a way, to cease to be Britons at all. Nonsense. Why should it be impossible for a Finish person speaking fluent American English do be mistaken for an American. This is mostly about personal attitude --- which can be culturally enforced. I regularly meet people from the Netherlands who came to live in Northern Belgium. Some have an attitude like you describe above and others don't and don't mind adapting their language without feeling any less a Dutchman. Then we have people whose native tongue is French, who seem to think they will somehow lose their French speaking identity by learning Dutch. Personally, I think that monocultures are harmful and ought to be resisted, whether than monoculture is one-species-of-wheat, one-operating-system, or one-language. The English-speaking world is threatened by American cultural and linguistic monoculture[1], and that's a bad thing. The same applies to the rest of the world, but to a much lesser extent. Having a rich and varied cultural ecosystem is important, and regional differences in language and culture are an essential part in that. People adapting their language in order to be better understood by their audience doesn't make a mono culture. This is just one newsgroup/mailing list. Talking about mono culture because of adapting to one specific variant of a particular language here makes no more sense than talking about mono culture because the subject here is python and not other computer languages. -- Antoon Pardon -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Steven D'Aprano wrote: I remember the first time I realised that when Indians talk about a code they aren't using wrong English, they are using a regional variation. I don't think this is confined to Indians. I've noticed that people from a Fortran scientific-computing background tend to use the word that way as well. -- Greg -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote: Variations in idiom and spelling are a good thing. They open our minds to new possibilities, remind us that we aren't all the same, and keep life fresh. I remember the first time I realised that when Indians talk about a code they aren't using wrong English, they are using a regional variation. In British and American English, code in the programming sense[2] is a mass or uncountable noun, like air[3], milk, music and housework. I can assure you that in a veterinary sence, Yersey cows will produce a milk with higher fat content. In a lingustic sence the a is not a count -- that would be the word one --, it is the indefinite article. Here is the difference: The Enigma machine produced a code that only Alan Turing could break. If I say the Enigma machine produced one code that only Alan Turing could break, it means all the other codes could be broken by someone else. What if I say this file contains a long Fortran code? Or what if I say this file contains one long Fortran code? There is a subtile difference in meaning here. Sturla -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Sturla Molden wrote: Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote: Variations in idiom and spelling are a good thing. They open our minds to new possibilities, remind us that we aren't all the same, and keep life fresh. I remember the first time I realised that when Indians talk about a code they aren't using wrong English, they are using a regional variation. In British and American English, code in the programming sense[2] is a mass or uncountable noun, like air[3], milk, music and housework. I can assure you that in a veterinary sence, Yersey cows will produce a milk with higher fat content. A good example of the complexity and subtlety of English grammar. I don't know enough linguistics to tell you what a milk in that sense is called, but it's not the same as 1 milk, 2 milks etc. I'm not even sure what the purpose of the a is, since it reads fine without it. I chalk that up to English is weird, like the way we sometimes refer to money as a mass noun (two buckets of money, not two monies) and other times we treat it as a mass plural noun (please hand all monies to the bursar, but it would be weird to say please hand five monies to the bursar). Oh, and of course since language is complicated and speakers of language are lazy, there are contexts where one does say two milks as a short-hand, like we say two sugars when we mean two spoonfuls of sugar or serves of sugar. The unit of measure is implied by context. In a lingustic sence the a is not a count -- that would be the word one --, it is the indefinite article. Here is the difference: The Enigma machine produced a code that only Alan Turing could break. If I say the Enigma machine produced one code that only Alan Turing could break, it means all the other codes could be broken by someone else. No. It means that there is one secret code that Turing, and only Turing, could break, and some unknown number (possibly zero, possibly millions) of codes that he could not break. Whether other people could break these other codes is not stated. Whether you say a code or one code (or fifteen codes for that matter) is irrelevant. There is a weak implication that if Turing cannot break the other codes, nobody else could either. That's not necessarily true in real life, but as a rough rule of thumb, we can reason like this: since there is one code that Turing can break but others cannot, he must be cleverer at breaking secret codes than everyone else. If he is cleverer at breaking codes, then it is unlikely that they could break codes that he cannot. If they could break an Enigma code, so could he. Therefore, if he cannot break them, neither can anyone else. What if I say this file contains a long Fortran code? Or what if I say this file contains one long Fortran code? There is a subtile difference in meaning here. In British/American/Australian English, you wouldn't say either of those. You would say a long piece of Fortran code or a long example of Fortran code. Or more likely, a long Fortran program. Program is counted: there is no difficulty in B/A/A English to say I have written 17 programs. We can substitute one for a and the meaning remains the same: Here is a long example of Fortran code. Here is one long example of Fortran code. In neither case does it imply that there is only one example of Fortran code which is long in the entire world. (This is bringing back memories of when I was, oh, four or so, when I got into a long argument with my teacher that a hundred and one hundred were different. You counted ninety-nine, *a* hundred, a hundred and one, a hundred and two, ... a hundred and ninety-nine, *one* hundred, one hundred and one...) -- Steven -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On 2015-03-03 01:44, Mark Lawrence wrote: On 03/03/2015 00:23, Sturla Molden wrote: Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote: Variations in idiom and spelling are a good thing. They open our minds to new possibilities, remind us that we aren't all the same, and keep life fresh. I remember the first time I realised that when Indians talk about a code they aren't using wrong English, they are using a regional variation. In British and American English, code in the programming sense[2] is a mass or uncountable noun, like air[3], milk, music and housework. I can assure you that in a veterinary sence, Yersey cows will produce a milk with higher fat content. Yersey? In a lingustic sence the a is not a count -- that would be the word one --, it is the indefinite article. Here is the difference: The Enigma machine produced a code that only Alan Turing could break. If I say the Enigma machine produced one code that only Alan Turing could break, it means all the other codes could be broken by someone else. No, it wasn't a code because not all the Enigma codes were broken. What if I say this file contains a long Fortran code? Or what if I say this file contains one long Fortran code? There is a subtile difference in meaning here. You might think so but I disagree, in UK English it means one and the same thing, there is so subtle difference at all. There might be a difference, like that between this program contains a bug and this program contains one bug. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Mon, 02 Mar 2015 17:30:42 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa ma...@pacujo.net wrote: Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info: But for Britons to use American English is, in a way, to cease to be Britons at all. Did Hugh Laurie have to turn in his British passport? The concepts behind an actor performing and a programmer programming are so distinct, I don't think your reply warrants an answer (even though I suspect you would want to draw some cheap analogies). I don't know if you realize who bad your stance looks like from the position of someone who doesn't even use english as a primary development language. You are not telling just Brits they should use your flavored dialect, you are telling everyone else that on top of their efforts to learn the english language, they will have to care about national dialects, if they wish to... how did you put it before?... conform. I'm from a country where we face the same language issues as English. There are many dialects of the Portuguese language. It is spoken officially in 5 continents, it's the second fastest growing language in Europe and it is the fith most spoken language in the world. We tried to solve the problem by officially standardizing the written language between all dialects. There is today an official Portuguese language across all countries that should be a standard for written communication. It is mostly a mixture of the portuguese and brazillian dialects, government-approved by all countries of the CPLP. (As if governments should decide how people speak and write, but whatever). This worked out so well that 10 years later we are still missing formalized plugins for our programs and no one is insterested in doing them. So if I wish to code in standard portuguese (as opossed to pt-PT or pt-BR, for instance), I won't have many options in the way of spell checkers. So good luck to you too trying to impose your en-US flavor of standard english. I'm also wondering how you think your stance works out in community development environments. Namely, how will it look like to everyone else when your next pull request on github includes a project-wide rename of the variables/identifiers analogue, colour and analyse. Or when you let everyone else know how annoyed you are at the Pyjamas development team. Software development bases most of its success in its ability to communicate. Not just ideas, but also code. One of the strengths of Python is, they say, how easy the language communicates its code intentions to a layman. Contrary to what you are thinking, trying to impose your kind of language barriers, stiffles that communication process. By forcing everyone to adapt to a standard dialect you are slowing down the ability of the worldwide community to express their ideas as they have now to learn a written language on top of a programming language, and you are growing the window for errors where before there was none. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On 03/03/2015 00:23, Sturla Molden wrote: Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote: Variations in idiom and spelling are a good thing. They open our minds to new possibilities, remind us that we aren't all the same, and keep life fresh. I remember the first time I realised that when Indians talk about a code they aren't using wrong English, they are using a regional variation. In British and American English, code in the programming sense[2] is a mass or uncountable noun, like air[3], milk, music and housework. I can assure you that in a veterinary sence, Yersey cows will produce a milk with higher fat content. Yersey? In a lingustic sence the a is not a count -- that would be the word one --, it is the indefinite article. Here is the difference: The Enigma machine produced a code that only Alan Turing could break. If I say the Enigma machine produced one code that only Alan Turing could break, it means all the other codes could be broken by someone else. No, it wasn't a code because not all the Enigma codes were broken. What if I say this file contains a long Fortran code? Or what if I say this file contains one long Fortran code? There is a subtile difference in meaning here. You might think so but I disagree, in UK English it means one and the same thing, there is so subtle difference at all. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 6:05 PM, Marko Rauhamaa ma...@pacujo.net wrote: Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com: Aye, but that's only an issue if you use more than one. You're most welcome to use colour in a project, just be consistent. Or Farbe or couleur or väri or... I *have* seen code like that. And I've seen a number of proposals to build Python with its *keywords* localized. While there is a reasonable limit to this (for instance, I wouldn't expect the disassembly of CPython byte-code to have STORE_FAST translated into another language), there's nothing wrong with programmers being able to write their code in their languages. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Chris Angelico wrote: And I've seen a number of proposals to build Python with its keywords localized. ChinesePython: http://www.chinesepython.org/english/english.html Teuton: http://www.fiber-space.de/EasyExtend/doc/teuton/teuton.htm -- Steve -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Steven D'Aprano wrote: please hand all monies to the bursar, I think that's another case of an implied unit, the unit in this case being the money involved in one transaction. but it would be weird to say please hand five monies to the bursar. It would, but I'm not sure I could explain exactly why. :-) In a lingustic sence the a is not a count -- that would be the word one --, it is the indefinite article. It still means one of something, though. If there's a difference, it's that it's somewhat more vague. There's a fly in my soup! is expressing surprise that there are more than zero flies present. You are referring to the first one you happen to see; there might be others, but they're not relevant. Whereas There is one fly in my soup! is being precise about the number of flies. -- Greg -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Sturla Molden wrote: I can assure you that in a veterinary sence, Yersey cows will produce a milk with higher fat content. There, a milk is really an abbreviation for a type of milk. But people who talk about a code don't mean a type of code, they're using it the way we would say a program or a library. What if I say this file contains a long Fortran code? Or what if I say this file contains one long Fortran code? There is a subtile difference in meaning here. There is, but the number of codes/pieces of code being referenced still equals 1. The difference is more that this file contains a long Fortran code suggests the file may contain other things as well, whereas this file contains one long Fortran code suggests that's the only thing it contains. Isn't English wonderful? -- Greg -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Rustom Mody rustompm...@gmail.com writes: And among these people, if they are faithful to their own calling, to their own vocation, and to their own message from God, communication on the deepest level is possible. And the deepest level of communication is not communication, but communion. It is wordless. It is beyond words, and it is beyond speech, and it is beyond concept. [… and on and on …] That's amazing. That sounds so deep and resonant. Like the sound of an empty water tank being thumped with a stick. It's rare to see an empty echoing clamour distilled into a salad of words tossed together with no regard for their meaning, quite as well as that. Thank you. Meanwhile, those of us who actually want to communicate will try harder to have our utterances actually mean something, and communicate clearer than the white noise of false profundity. -- \“The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things | `\ without evidence.” —Thomas Henry Huxley, _Evolution and | _o__)Ethics_, 1893 | Ben Finney -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Mon, 2 Mar 2015 19:51:31 -0800 (PST), Rustom Mody rustompm...@gmail.com wrote: I dont know what you are saying Mario or even whom you are addressing I was replying directly to Marko. I don't think it is possible to establish a standard dialect for variable names in English or any other language. It doesn't even make sense as long as the code clearly communicates its intent. Any attempts at standardizing written language are just bound to failure due to natural cultural resistances, but also the way the spoken and written language evolve isn't going ever to agree with some official authority. As for your Thomas Merton quote, it didn't resonate with me. First I find it hilarious that a 20th century catholic monk speaks of people of faith as existing at the margin of society and accepting risk, particularly in the deeply conservative American society. That's a laugh right there. But the whole comunion thing, the going through God, and the accepting we are all one, is really not my flavor of morning tea. I'm a bit more down to earth and less heavenly oriented. We are all really different individuals, deeply separated by our own minds and sharing only a similar biology. That we can communicate at all, is rather satisfying. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Tuesday, March 3, 2015 at 8:21:53 AM UTC+5:30, Mario Figueiredo wrote: On Mon, 02 Mar 2015 17:30:42 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: Steven D'Aprano: But for Britons to use American English is, in a way, to cease to be Britons at all. Did Hugh Laurie have to turn in his British passport? The concepts behind an actor performing and a programmer programming are so distinct, I don't think your reply warrants an answer (even though I suspect you would want to draw some cheap analogies). I don't know if you realize who bad your stance looks like from the position of someone who doesn't even use english as a primary development language. I dont know what you are saying Mario or even whom you are addressing - Steven or Marko - some seems to apply to one some to the other However... While this exchange is going on here, a friend sent me this: So I stand among you as one who offers a small message of hope, that first, there are always people who dare to seek on the margin of society, who are not dependent on social acceptance, not dependent on social routine, and prefer a kind of free-floating existence under a state of risk. And among these people, if they are faithful to their own calling, to their own vocation, and to their own message from God, communication on the deepest level is possible. And the deepest level of communication is not communication, but communion. It is wordless. It is beyond words, and it is beyond speech, and it is beyond concept. Not that we discover a new unity. We discover an older unity . . . we are already one. But we imagine that we are not. And what we have to recover is our original unity. What we have to be is what we are. Fr. Thomas Merton -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
MRAB wrote: There might be a difference, like that between this program contains a bug and this program contains one bug. Those two sentences mean exactly the same thing in standard American, British and Australian English. Pedants can argue whether one bug means *exactly* one bug, not more, or *at least* one bug, but they can make precisely the same arguments about a bug. -- Steve -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 4:40 PM, Gregory Ewing greg.ew...@canterbury.ac.nz wrote: Chris Angelico wrote: You want to use colour instead of color? Also not a problem, and should be easy enough for someone to understand who normally spells it the other way. It's not a matter of failing to understand, it's about having more than one spelling of an identifier around imposing an extra cognitive burden. PEP 8 recommends against abbreviating identifiers because it's hard to remember which abbreviation is being used in any given context. Multiple alternative spellings have a similar effect. Aye, but that's only an issue if you use more than one. You're most welcome to use colour in a project, just be consistent. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Chris Angelico wrote: You want to use colour instead of color? Also not a problem, and should be easy enough for someone to understand who normally spells it the other way. It's not a matter of failing to understand, it's about having more than one spelling of an identifier around imposing an extra cognitive burden. PEP 8 recommends against abbreviating identifiers because it's hard to remember which abbreviation is being used in any given context. Multiple alternative spellings have a similar effect. -- Greg -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com: Aye, but that's only an issue if you use more than one. You're most welcome to use colour in a project, just be consistent. Or Farbe or couleur or väri or... I *have* seen code like that. Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info: Marko Rauhamaa wrote: Similarly, I've heard some Finnish representatives in the Nordic Council complain how the Danish insist on speaking Danish. The official language there is Swedish. I'm reminded of the British Prime Minister David Lloyd George, who apparently made a habit of answering difficult or embarrassing questions in parliament in his native Welsh. What are the Danish embarrassed about? C++? C#? Delphi? ALGOL 60? BNF? But for Britons to use American English is, in a way, to cease to be Britons at all. Did Hugh Laurie have to turn in his British passport? -- But don't despair! I just ran into this (URL: http://speakmoreclearly.com/): Do you want to speak English fluently and with an American accent? - Sick of being asked to repeat yourself? - Tired of people not understanding you? - Worried about losing your job or no one hiring you? - Trouble being understood on the phone? - Embarrassed or shy in social situations? If you answered ‘yes’ to any of the above questions, then I have great news for you! You CAN change your accent and start speaking English like an American. In less than 15 minutes a day and from the comfort of your own home. You just need to know the RIGHT way to practise. Our Ultimate American Accent Training Package gives you all the exercises and methods you need for improving your English pronunciation. Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
I like Old Tricks. I learn lots of British english idioms. I'm from NYC On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 10:45 AM, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 1:39 AM, Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote: Whereas the comparatively small differences between British and American English are all the more important because they distinguish the two. Nobody is ever going to mistake Finland and the Finish people for Americans, even if you learn to speak American English. But for Britons to use American English is, in a way, to cease to be Britons at all. Which, I suspect, is part of why the pound is still alive and well, and hasn't been replaced with the euro. Maybe some other countries don't mind becoming the United States of Europe, but the British resist the encroachment, and rightly so. ... a mass or uncountable noun, like air[3], milk, music and housework. You cannot have three milks, you have to add some sort of unit to it: three litres of milk... And yet, oddly enough, you wouldn't bat an eyelid if someone asks for two sugars in his tea. Or his hot chocolate... mmm, time for me to go make myself one, I think. Two sugars, a splosh of milk, caramel hot chocolate powder, and butter. Not one butter, because that concept doesn't exist, but very definitely two sugars, because the sugar comes in discrete units. (Not discreet units, mind, although I do trust my sugar not to blab about the sorts of drinks I put it in.) [1] Yes, I watch as many American movies and television shows as the next guy. I'm allowed to take the parts of their culture I approve of and reject the parts I don't. Part of resisting monoculture is accepting other people's cultures, not just sticking with your own. Embracing that difference. So go ahead: Watch McHale's Navy and Yes Minister, and appreciate the comedy of both - decide for yourself which one you find more to your liking, but know that they both exist, and they represent different styles. (Aside: Even in an American TV show like Once Upon A Time, it's possible for non-American accents to be welcomed. Belle is played by an Aussie, and her distinctive accent is commented on in-universe. Somehow, she picked up an accent that's completely different from her father's and her mother's, but is its own particular style and speech. Maybe she learned the accent from one of her books.) We embrace Unicode in Python 3 because it allows us to welcome Russian, Icelandic, Arabic, and Chinese programmers and allow them to write variable names in their own languages, using their own scripts (or, in the case of Icelandic, a script very similar to ours but with a few additional letters). We should equally embrace American and British English - and Indian English, and Australian English, and any other variant that people want to code in. You want to write your code in North-East Scots? Sure. You want to write your code in Gaelic? No problem (though personally, I prefer garlic to Gaelic). You want to use colour instead of color? Also not a problem, and should be easy enough for someone to understand who normally spells it the other way. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- Joel Goldstick http://joelgoldstick.com -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 1:39 AM, Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote: Whereas the comparatively small differences between British and American English are all the more important because they distinguish the two. Nobody is ever going to mistake Finland and the Finish people for Americans, even if you learn to speak American English. But for Britons to use American English is, in a way, to cease to be Britons at all. Which, I suspect, is part of why the pound is still alive and well, and hasn't been replaced with the euro. Maybe some other countries don't mind becoming the United States of Europe, but the British resist the encroachment, and rightly so. ... a mass or uncountable noun, like air[3], milk, music and housework. You cannot have three milks, you have to add some sort of unit to it: three litres of milk... And yet, oddly enough, you wouldn't bat an eyelid if someone asks for two sugars in his tea. Or his hot chocolate... mmm, time for me to go make myself one, I think. Two sugars, a splosh of milk, caramel hot chocolate powder, and butter. Not one butter, because that concept doesn't exist, but very definitely two sugars, because the sugar comes in discrete units. (Not discreet units, mind, although I do trust my sugar not to blab about the sorts of drinks I put it in.) [1] Yes, I watch as many American movies and television shows as the next guy. I'm allowed to take the parts of their culture I approve of and reject the parts I don't. Part of resisting monoculture is accepting other people's cultures, not just sticking with your own. Embracing that difference. So go ahead: Watch McHale's Navy and Yes Minister, and appreciate the comedy of both - decide for yourself which one you find more to your liking, but know that they both exist, and they represent different styles. (Aside: Even in an American TV show like Once Upon A Time, it's possible for non-American accents to be welcomed. Belle is played by an Aussie, and her distinctive accent is commented on in-universe. Somehow, she picked up an accent that's completely different from her father's and her mother's, but is its own particular style and speech. Maybe she learned the accent from one of her books.) We embrace Unicode in Python 3 because it allows us to welcome Russian, Icelandic, Arabic, and Chinese programmers and allow them to write variable names in their own languages, using their own scripts (or, in the case of Icelandic, a script very similar to ours but with a few additional letters). We should equally embrace American and British English - and Indian English, and Australian English, and any other variant that people want to code in. You want to write your code in North-East Scots? Sure. You want to write your code in Gaelic? No problem (though personally, I prefer garlic to Gaelic). You want to use colour instead of color? Also not a problem, and should be easy enough for someone to understand who normally spells it the other way. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
