Re: Best Web dev language
John Roth [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Mike Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Jon Slaughter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Someone mentioned that you might require JavaScript on the client side. I recommend against that - people and organizations disable JavaScript for security reasons, and browsers on portable devices may not have JavaScript at all. Why limit your audience? If you understand HTML, it's possible to write a web page that uses JavaScript (or any other such technology) for flashy effects, but still functions properly if the user has disabled JavaScript, or doesn't have it available. But that's a long discussion - see URL: http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/papers.green.html for more information. I would have said that at one time, but then the world changed with AJAX, expecially with Google using very script heavy applications for all of their new work. It leads to very responsive web applications. Actually, AJAX just makes the case for wanting JavaScript turned on stronger - it doesn't change the fundamental facts of what's going on. People/organization will still turn off JavaScript because it represents a security risk. Low-end network devices will still have browsers that can't do JavaScript. You can still either code your pages to alienate such users, or you can provide them with the same basic functionality as they'd get if they had JavaScript, except it won't be as responsive/flashy as it would be if they did. Try Googles new work with JavaScript turned off. You'll find that a lot of the new stuff works fine without it, thought it may not be as spiffy. For those that don't, they warn the user that it won't work, which means they are doing better than 90% of the sites that require JavaScript on the web. mike -- Mike Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Best Web dev language
Jon Slaughter wrote: I'm trying to get into web development for creating a professional web site and I'm confused on which language I should use. I've read some comparisons between the major languages and I was thinking that python might be the way to go for the most powerful and general language but I am not sure. If you are really interested in the most powerful and general, then Python is one of only perhaps several options. I wouldn't bother counting something like C++ in the mix, personally... I'd say doing web development with C++ would warrant a quick visit from those nice, young men in their clean, white coats. Perhaps the following pages will be of some assistance, not directly in comparing Python with something else, but with giving the flavour (and, unfortunate or not, diversity!) of Python approaches: http://www.fredshack.com/docs/pythonweb.html http://www.boddie.org.uk/python/web_frameworks.html Michelle Levesque has been comparing several of the most popular in a bakeoff at http://pyre.third-bit.com/pyweb/index.html . Does anyone know of any detailed and objective comparisons between the major languages(perl, php, java, javascript, etc...) that might help me get a clearer picture? No, sorry. I can say, however, that if you want general purpose you do not want PHP. In fact, if you're a real programmer you probably don't want PHP. Perl... well, enough has been written about the unreadability of Perl code and the number of ways its arbitrariness can get you into trouble that I'm not going to waste time adding to it. Javascript shouldn't be considered a serious contender for the server-side stuff, though you will quite likely _require_ it for the client side stuff, so keep it in mind but try to minimize your use of it and postpone it as long as you can. (It's not actually that bad a language in many ways, and even has a bit of the same flavour as Python from time to time, in its dynamic nature.) Java? Well, a large number of us here (me included) have spent a fair bit of time with Java and, well, we're here now. (Really, Java is likely a much better candidate than C++ for many reasons. If you are down to a choice of two to make, I suspect it will be between Java and Python, or perhaps Ruby thrown into the mix.) Also, can anyone recommend any book or web page that gives an introduction to the method in which one programs web sites? I am not clear on who one, for instance, would use C++ as the language for a web site except by using it to create html... I'm not sure if basicaly all languages goal is creating html dynamically or if there is more to do. What I mean is that basicaly one is using some other language to wrap the html code or possibly generate it at run-time for dynamic results. (so all client based web interfaces are really just html readers but all this extra stuff is used to make certain things easier and dynamic(just as generating tables and forms and all that). That's not a particular bad description. You're really starting from scratch here, aren't you? grin My advice, since you have such a long way to travel, is to use an agile approach and start with some small subset of your overall requirements, the most critical/valuable part, and pick any of the favourite Python frameworks and see how far you can get. If you like the way it went, pick the next most valuable part and then do it. (Keep these down to only a day or two of programming or you'll get bogged down.) The PyWebOff page above is actually an excellent demonstration of the approach you should take, and it's already been done by someone else for three or four different frameworks! -Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Best Web dev language
Hi Jon, Yes, there are a variety of tutorials on the Internet that can help you learning how to use Python with the web. Two of the best ones you can get for free by clicking on the link below. 1) http://www.devshed.com/c/a/Python/Writing-CGI-Programs-in-Python/ 2) http://www.devshed.com/c/a/Python/Python-on-the-Web/ However, in order to understand the tutorials above, it is important to first have a basic understanding of the Python programming language. Python is not hard to learn, but it might take you a few hours to learn it, if you have not done so already. 1) http://www.greenteapress.com/thinkpython/ 2) http://www.devshed.com/c/a/Python/ Hope this helps, Brian :-) --- Jon Slaughter wrote: I'm trying to get into web development for creating a professional web site and I'm confused on which language I should use. I've read some comparisons between the major languages and I was thinking that python might be the way to go for the most powerful and general language but I am not sure. Does anyone know of any detailed and objective comparisons between the major languages(perl, php, java, javascript, etc...) that might help me get a clearer picture? I have some experience with C/C++ but it has been some time since I have done any real programming... I'd prefer to use C++ style so I would no thave to learn a new language completely. I've also read that one can use C/C++ to develop just as one would use any other language and I'm wondering if this is advisable? (since it seems most web pages are done in perl, python, or php?) Also, can anyone recommend any book or web page that gives an introduction to the method in which one programs web sites? I am not clear on who one, for instance, would use C++ as the language for a web site except by using it to create html... I'm not sure if basicaly all languages goal is creating html dynamically or if there is more to do. What I mean is that basicaly one is using some other language to wrap the html code or possibly generate it at run-time for dynamic results. (so all client based web interfaces are really just html readers but all this extra stuff is used to make certain things easier and dynamic(just as generating tables and forms and all that). Thanks for any help, Jon -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Best Web dev language
Jon Slaughter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does anyone know of any detailed and objective comparisons between the major languages(perl, php, java, javascript, etc...) that might help me get a clearer picture? I don't know of any (really good) comparisions, but anyway here are my opinion: Don't look only at something someone calls major language. The not-so-well-known one may offer you quite some nice extras. If you have to deal with medium to complex application give continuation based approches (Seaside (Smalltalk), PLT/Scheme, Cocoon (Java), UncommonWeb (Common Lisp) and others; to get an idea look at http://lisp.tech.coop/Web/Continuation ). What language do i seem interesting to look at for web development? Hmmm... let's see (listing in random order): - Common Lisp (my personal favorite) - Scheme (PLT/Scheme, Bigloo,...) - Scala (http://scala.epfl.ch/) - Nice (http://nice.sourceforge.net/) - Squeak (http://www.squeak.org/index.html) - Python Scala and Nice compiles to Java-Bytecode and you have access to the complete Java-World (AFAIK there are such JVM-Compilers for Common Lisp and some Scheme, too and there is JPython). I don't like Perl syntax much, so it's not on the list, and PHP is a rather chaotic language with (personal view!) at least a couple of new security issues eacht month, so it's the worst choice one can make (i think). Hope that helps a little bit. -- Stefan. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Best Web dev language
Jon Slaughter wrote: I'm trying to get into web development for creating a professional web site and I'm confused on which language I should use. I've read some comparisons between the major languages and I was thinking that python might be the way to go for the most powerful and general language but I am not sure. Does anyone know of any detailed and objective comparisons between the major languages(perl, php, java, javascript, etc...) that might help me get a clearer picture? The one that is most popular and has by far the most open source example applications out there is PHP (plus MySQL for databases). It's been that way for many years now. It is also much cheaper and easier to find PHP/MySQL hosting. Search sourceforge.net for many example PHP web applications. I hope you realize that by posting your question on the Python newsgroup instead of a general web development newgroup, you're going to get extremely biased answers. If you do go with Python, check out the mod_python module for the Apache web server. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Best Web dev language
Jon Slaughter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Also, can anyone recommend any book or web page that gives an introduction to the method in which one programs web sites? I am not clear on who one, for instance, would use C++ as the language for a web site except by using it to create html... I'm not sure if basicaly all languages goal is creating html dynamically or if there is more to do. What I mean is that basicaly one is using some other language to wrap the html code or possibly generate it at run-time for dynamic results. (so all client based web interfaces are really just html readers but all this extra stuff is used to make certain things easier and dynamic(just as generating tables and forms and all that). That's one way to look at it. Personally, I prefer to think of HTML as the UI toolkit for web development. It's more like CLI code that GUI code, in that you have three distinct phases of process, display, await response rather than waiting for UI events which trigger data processing and a display update. As such, you can use pretty much any language that can connect to the toolkit. CGI is pretty low-level, and pretty much anything can be used. C++ and Java both certainly get used. Others have mentioned LISP variants. I've used the shell and Rexx. These days, I prefer Python, but that's what you'd expect from somene reading c.l.python. Anything you're comfortable with should work. In particular, since the user is going to spend time waiting on network delays, any performance issues the language implementation may have will be negligible for a single user. Someone mentioned that you might require JavaScript on the client side. I recommend against that - people and organizations disable JavaScript for security reasons, and browsers on portable devices may not have JavaScript at all. Why limit your audience? If you understand HTML, it's possible to write a web page that uses JavaScript (or any other such technology) for flashy effects, but still functions properly if the user has disabled JavaScript, or doesn't have it available. But that's a long discussion - see URL: http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/papers.green.html for more information. mike -- Mike Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Best Web dev language
Mike Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Jon Slaughter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Someone mentioned that you might require JavaScript on the client side. I recommend against that - people and organizations disable JavaScript for security reasons, and browsers on portable devices may not have JavaScript at all. Why limit your audience? If you understand HTML, it's possible to write a web page that uses JavaScript (or any other such technology) for flashy effects, but still functions properly if the user has disabled JavaScript, or doesn't have it available. But that's a long discussion - see URL: http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/papers.green.html for more information. I would have said that at one time, but then the world changed with AJAX, expecially with Google using very script heavy applications for all of their new work. It leads to very responsive web applications. John Roth mike -- Mike Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
