Re: Meaning and purpose of the Subject field (was: Ignore error with non-zero exit status)

[Grant Edwards]

On 2015-12-21, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:

> So as far as I am concerned, if changes of subject line breaks threading for
> you, so sad, too bad. Go without threading or use a better mail client.

Same here.  After getting what is effectively a 

Re: Meaning and purpose of the Subject field (was: Ignore error with non-zero exit status)

[Ian Kelly]

On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 8:17 AM, Grant Edwards  wrote:
> On 2015-12-21, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
>
>> So as far as I am concerned, if changes of subject line breaks threading for
>> you, so sad, too bad. Go without threading or use a better mail client.
>
> Same here.  After getting what is effectively a 

Re: Meaning and purpose of the Subject field (was: Ignore error with non-zero exit status)

[Grant Edwards]

On 2015-12-22, Ian Kelly  wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 8:17 AM, Grant Edwards  
> wrote:
>> On 2015-12-21, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
>>
>>> So as far as I am concerned, if changes of subject line breaks threading for
>>> you, so sad, too bad. Go without threading or use a better mail client.
>>
>> Same here.  After getting what is effectively a 

Re: Meaning and purpose of the Subject field (was: Ignore error with non-zero exit status)

[Tim Chase]

On 2015-12-21 23:24, Jon Ribbens wrote:
> That sounds a bit confused - if the *intention* of changing the
> subject line is to create a new thread, then breaking the thread
> is not "breaking threading" ;-)

I'm pretty sure that the purpose is not to *break* the thread, but to
suggest that the sub-thread's topic has shifted away that of the
parent thread.

-tkc


-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Meaning and purpose of the Subject field (was: Ignore error with non-zero exit status)

[Ian Kelly]

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Ben Finney  wrote:
> Ian Kelly  writes:
>> This isn't just a Usenet group; it's also a mailing list, and many
>> MUAs rely on the Subject header for proper threading.
>
> If such MUAs do that, they're misinterpreting the Subject field. Other
> fields are available with the explicit meaning of relating messages to
> each other regardless of what they discuss.
>
> If the correct fields are being mangled, then the correct place to apply
> pressure is on those who can fix that error. Let's not overload the
> Subject field to make up the lack.

It might just be Gmail.

http://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/965/how-does-gmail-decide-to-thread-email-messages

I can't specifically recall if I've used any MUA other than Gmail that
even attempts threading email messages.
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Meaning and purpose of the Subject field (was: Ignore error with non-zero exit status)

[Jon Ribbens]

On 2015-12-21, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Dec 2015 08:44 am, Jon Ribbens wrote about mail clients that use
> the Subject line to thread messages:
>> Also: Thunderbird, The Bat!, Eudora, Gnus, Outlook, Outlook Express,
>> Pegasus Mail, Pine, Apple Mail, Windows Live Mail, Yahoo Mail,
>> Evolution, SquirrelMail, KMail, Windows Mail, etc.
>
> I understand that at least some of those will only use the Subject as a
> fallback when other threading information is not available. That's a
> reasonable strategy to take.
>
> As for mail clients that *always* and *exclusively* use the subject
> line to implement threading, they are horrifically broken.

Yes, that would be bizarre and clearly wrong. Are there any such clients?
I wouldn't put it past Microsoft to do such a thing, of course ;-)

> So as far as I am concerned, if changes of subject line breaks
> threading for you, so sad, too bad. Go without threading or use a
> better mail client.

I have no comment on that.

> The whole purpose of the change of subject is to indicate in a human-visible
> way that the subject of the thread has changed, i.e. that it is a new
> thread derived from the old one. If that breaks threading, oh well, it
> breaks threading.

That sounds a bit confused - if the *intention* of changing the
subject line is to create a new thread, then breaking the thread
is not "breaking threading" ;-)

>> And, yes, fixing the mail clients of "everybody else in the world"
>> might be a lovely idea but it is a little impractical to implement.
>
> Less impractical than insisting that "everybody else in the world" must
> change their posting habits to suit those using broken mail clients.

Fortunately I haven't suggested that.
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Meaning and purpose of the Subject field (was: Ignore error with non-zero exit status)

[Ian Kelly]

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 4:24 PM, Jon Ribbens
 wrote:
> On 2015-12-21, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
>> The whole purpose of the change of subject is to indicate in a human-visible
>> way that the subject of the thread has changed, i.e. that it is a new
>> thread derived from the old one. If that breaks threading, oh well, it
>> breaks threading.
>
> That sounds a bit confused - if the *intention* of changing the
> subject line is to create a new thread, then breaking the thread
> is not "breaking threading" ;-)
>
>>> And, yes, fixing the mail clients of "everybody else in the world"
>>> might be a lovely idea but it is a little impractical to implement.
>>
>> Less impractical than insisting that "everybody else in the world" must
>> change their posting habits to suit those using broken mail clients.
>
> Fortunately I haven't suggested that.

Yes, I only requested that people not change the subject headers for
trivial reasons, by which I meant things like fixing typos (as in the
subject header change that brought about this thread). I also only
intended my request in the context of this forum, which is shared
between Usenet and mailing list users. Changing the subject header to
indicate a change in subject is, of course, fine.
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Meaning and purpose of the Subject field (was: Ignore error with non-zero exit status)

[Jon Ribbens]

On 2015-12-21, Ian Kelly  wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Ben Finney  
> wrote:
>> Ian Kelly  writes:
>>> This isn't just a Usenet group; it's also a mailing list, and many
>>> MUAs rely on the Subject header for proper threading.
>>
>> If such MUAs do that, they're misinterpreting the Subject field. Other
>> fields are available with the explicit meaning of relating messages to
>> each other regardless of what they discuss.
>>
>> If the correct fields are being mangled, then the correct place to apply
>> pressure is on those who can fix that error. Let's not overload the
>> Subject field to make up the lack.
>
> It might just be Gmail.
>
> http://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/965/how-does-gmail-decide-to-thread-email-messages
>
> I can't specifically recall if I've used any MUA other than Gmail that
> even attempts threading email messages.

Also: Thunderbird, The Bat!, Eudora, Gnus, Outlook, Outlook Express,
Pegasus Mail, Pine, Apple Mail, Windows Live Mail, Yahoo Mail,
Evolution, SquirrelMail, KMail, Windows Mail, etc.

Trying to suggest that MUAs should never look at the Subject line for
threading is, unfortunately, ridiculous. Yes, in theory it shouldn't
be necessary but in practice enough people are using poor clients that
don't provide enough context in the proper headers that it can't be
avoided.

And, yes, fixing the mail clients of "everybody else in the world"
might be a lovely idea but it is a little impractical to implement.
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Meaning and purpose of the Subject field (was: Ignore error with non-zero exit status)

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Tue, 22 Dec 2015 08:44 am, Jon Ribbens wrote about mail clients that use
the Subject line to thread messages:

> Also: Thunderbird, The Bat!, Eudora, Gnus, Outlook, Outlook Express,
> Pegasus Mail, Pine, Apple Mail, Windows Live Mail, Yahoo Mail,
> Evolution, SquirrelMail, KMail, Windows Mail, etc.

I understand that at least some of those will only use the Subject as a
fallback when other threading information is not available. That's a
reasonable strategy to take.

As for mail clients that *always* and *exclusively* use the subject line to
implement threading, they are horrifically broken. It is completely
unreasonable to insist that people using non-broken tools must change their
habits to support those with completely broken tools.

So as far as I am concerned, if changes of subject line breaks threading for
you, so sad, too bad. Go without threading or use a better mail client.


> Trying to suggest that MUAs should never look at the Subject line for
> threading is, unfortunately, ridiculous. Yes, in theory it shouldn't
> be necessary but in practice enough people are using poor clients that
> don't provide enough context in the proper headers that it can't be
> avoided.

*shrug*

The whole purpose of the change of subject is to indicate in a human-visible
way that the subject of the thread has changed, i.e. that it is a new
thread derived from the old one. If that breaks threading, oh well, it
breaks threading.


> And, yes, fixing the mail clients of "everybody else in the world"
> might be a lovely idea but it is a little impractical to implement.

Less impractical than insisting that "everybody else in the world" must
change their posting habits to suit those using broken mail clients.

The fact is, even if nobody ever changed the subject line, sometimes
threading will be broken. I can't find the energy to care about something
which already only sometimes works.




-- 
Steven

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Meaning and purpose of the Subject field (was: Ignore error with non-zero exit status)

[Cameron Simpson]

On 22Dec2015 10:14, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:

On Tue, 22 Dec 2015 08:44 am, Jon Ribbens wrote about mail clients that use
the Subject line to thread messages:


Also: Thunderbird, The Bat!, Eudora, Gnus, Outlook, Outlook Express,
Pegasus Mail, Pine, Apple Mail, Windows Live Mail, Yahoo Mail,
Evolution, SquirrelMail, KMail, Windows Mail, etc.


I understand that at least some of those will only use the Subject as a
fallback when other threading information is not available. That's a
reasonable strategy to take.

As for mail clients that *always* and *exclusively* use the subject line to
implement threading, they are horrifically broken.


A big +1 here. Even as big as +2.


It is completely
unreasonable to insist that people using non-broken tools must change their
habits to support those with completely broken tools.

So as far as I am concerned, if changes of subject line breaks threading for
you, so sad, too bad. Go without threading or use a better mail client.

[...snip...]

Besides, changing the Subject line is _supposed_ to break the threading in 
these contexts: such clients clearly consider the discussion topic (subject) as 
sufficient definition of a thread, and changing the topic should imply a new 
thread to such simplistic clients.


Cheers,
Cameron Simpson 
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list