Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
Steven D'Aprano wrote: I'm amused and somewhat perplexed that somebody with the non-English name of Stefan, writing from a .de email address, seems to be assuming that (1) everybody is on the Internet, and (2) everybody on the Internet speaks English. Oh, I totally don't. But most people who read c.l.py do at least understand it to a certain extent. I don't commonly read /that/ many non-english-speaking Python forums thoroughly enough to assume that the OP posted the question only in English and only in c.l.py. I don't even assume that he only posted that question to an Internet newsgroup. You know, there's real-life, too. But reading statements like the above really makes me feel that it's best to comment even on simple things like hi guys!. Or you could enter the 21 century and understand that guys has become a generic term for people of any sex. Is that true for everyone who understands and/or writes English? In that case, I'm fine with your above statement. Otherwise, I'd wonder who you meant with the term cultural chauvinism. So far, I only learned that most North-American English native speakers use that term in the way you refer to. That doesn't even get you close to the majority of English speakers. Stefan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
Mensanator wrote: On Aug 23, 2:25�pm, Stefan Behnel wrote: Mensanator wrote: asking how many Jews you can fit into a Volswagen. None, because it's already full. A spelling error does not make it any less offensive. As it stands, I find the joke above perfectly acceptable. Using the word Jew in a joke doesn't make it anti-semitic by default. Stefan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:40:03 +0200, Stefan Behnel wrote: Or you could enter the 21 century and understand that guys has become a generic term for people of any sex. Is that true for everyone who understands and/or writes English? In that case, I'm fine with your above statement. Otherwise, I'd wonder who you meant with the term cultural chauvinism. So far, I only learned that most North-American English native speakers use that term in the way you refer to. That doesn't even get you close to the majority of English speakers. If you read the entire thread, you'd see that we've already discussed the issue of guys for mixed sex groups and females. In fact, as I'd already said, I'm one of those old fashioned guys who still gets surprised when women refer to themselves as guys, but I'm learning to keep up with the times. I'm Australian, not North American, and the British author Michael Quinion, one of the researchers for the Oxford Dictionary, also states that guys now refers to both men and women: http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-guy1.htm When guys can refer to either sex in English, American, Canadian and Australian English, I think it should be pretty uncontroversial to treat it as standard now. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:40:03 +0200, Stefan Behnel wrote: Or you could enter the 21 century and understand that guys has become a generic term for people of any sex. Is that true for everyone who understands and/or writes English? In that case, I'm fine with your above statement. Otherwise, I'd wonder who you meant with the term cultural chauvinism. So far, I only learned that most North-American English native speakers use that term in the way you refer to. That doesn't even get you close to the majority of English speakers. If you read the entire thread, you'd see that we've already discussed the issue of guys for mixed sex groups and females. In fact, as I'd already said, I'm one of those old fashioned guys who still gets surprised when women refer to themselves as guys, but I'm learning to keep up with the times. I'm Australian, not North American, and the British author Michael Quinion, one of the researchers for the Oxford Dictionary, also states that guys now refers to both men and women: http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-guy1.htm When guys can refer to either sex in English, American, Canadian and Australian English, I think it should be pretty uncontroversial to treat it as standard now. Ok, then I guess I just misread after being adopted in the USA it started to change meaning in one of the cited articles as it changed meaning in the USA. I didn't expect Australians (and Oxford dictionary writers, and potentially others) to be /that/ influenced by shifts in US juvenile word semantics... I for one wouldn't start calling my leg foot, even though the Austrians kept insisting for ages now. Stefan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
Simon Brunning wrote: 2009/8/11 Robert Dailey: On Aug 11, 3:40 pm, Bearophile wrote: There are gals too here. It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help. Give the attitudes still prevalent in our industry (cf http://tinyurl.com/c5nqju and many more), I'm sorry to say that I don't think this is funny. Me neither. I used to reply with comments like you just missed more than half of the world's population to people who started their postings with hi guys!, and I stopped doing that as a) it became too tiring, especially on a potentially-for-newbees group like c.l.py, and b) to many people it actually *is* a figure of speech. But reading statements like the above really makes me feel that it's best to comment even on simple things like hi guys!. Stefan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
Jean-Michel Pichavant wrote: Grant Edwards wrote: On 2009-08-18, Simon Forman sajmik...@gmail.com wrote: Sexism, racism, homophobia, religious intolerance, etc., all stem from a fundamental forgetfulness of our Unity in God (as I would put it) and this is perhaps the single greatest cause of human misery. You mean the single greatest cause of human misery isn't Microsoft Windows? No, emacs is responsible ! Hail to Vi ! Heck, where's Godwin's law when you need it? Stefan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
Mensanator wrote: asking how many Jews you can fit into a Volswagen. None, because it's already full. (or voll as those who design Volkswagens would put it...) Stefan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Sun, 23 Aug 2009 20:52:16 +0200, Stefan Behnel wrote: Simon Brunning wrote: 2009/8/11 Robert Dailey: On Aug 11, 3:40 pm, Bearophile wrote: There are gals too here. It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help. Give the attitudes still prevalent in our industry (cf http://tinyurl.com/c5nqju and many more), I'm sorry to say that I don't think this is funny. Me neither. I used to reply with comments like you just missed more than half of the world's population to people who started their postings with hi guys!, If you start your post with Hi guys, you've missed more than EIGHTY percent of the world's population, namely the 5.5 to 6 billion people who speak no English. To say nothing of the 99.9% of the world's population who couldn't help you with your query, even if they spoke English, and even if they were on the Internet. In that case, missing out on the small percentage of English-speaking women who don't know that guys has become sexless probably doesn't matter. (I'm amused and somewhat perplexed that somebody with the non-English name of Stefan, writing from a .de email address, seems to be assuming that (1) everybody is on the Internet, and (2) everybody on the Internet speaks English. Awareness of sexism is a good thing, but so is awareness of cultural chauvinism.) and I stopped doing that as a) it became too tiring, especially on a potentially-for-newbees group like c.l.py, and b) to many people it actually *is* a figure of speech. But reading statements like the above really makes me feel that it's best to comment even on simple things like hi guys!. Or you could enter the 21 century and understand that guys has become a generic term for people of any sex. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Aug 23, 2:25�pm, Stefan Behnel stefan...@behnel.de wrote: Mensanator wrote: asking how many Jews you can fit into a Volswagen. None, because it's already full. A spelling error does not make it any less offensive. (or voll as those who design Volkswagens would put it...) Stefan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 10:51:08 -0700, Simon Forman wrote: (FWIW, I've always admired Humpty Dumpty's attitude to words. When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less. When you say admired, do you mean what the rest of us understand by admired, or something completely different? How about always, attitude, to and words? For all I know, you're talking about baking a birthday cake for your cat, by which I mean shaving off all your hair, and by hair I mean lunch and by shaving off I mean eating. Have you ever read R.A. Wilson's Quantum Psychology?) Perhaps I have, perhaps I haven't, it depends on who asks first. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
Simon Forman sajmik...@gmail.com writes: On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 8:42 PM, Ben Finneyben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au wrote: We're all unified by our humanity. Bringing any god into the picture is surely counter to any goals of unity. Unity in humanity is, to my way of thinking, the same as Unity in God. Then you're playing Humpty-Dumpty games with words. You know very well that “God” has established meanings entirely different from “humanity”, and those meanings played a part in your choice of that word. I maintain that you can't consistently make a declaration in favour of human unity and unfounded religious assertions. I think Unity, like None, is a built-in singleton, so to speak. This is white noise. We are one family. Agreed. 3 I think we can peaceably leave it at that. -- \“Spam will be a thing of the past in two years' time.” —Bill | `\ Gates, 2004-01-24 | _o__) | Ben Finney -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
In article mailman.18.1250595423.2854.python-l...@python.org, Jean-Michel Pichavant jeanmic...@sequans.com wrote: MRAB wrote: Carl Banks wrote: On Aug 17, 10:03 am, Jean-Michel Pichavant jeanmic...@sequans.com wrote: I'm no English native, but I already heard women/men referring to a group as guys, no matter that group gender configuration. It's even used for group composed exclusively of women. Moreover it looks like a *very* friendly form, so there is really nothing to worry about it. I like how being very friendly means calling people after a guy who tried to blow up the English Parliament. Guy Fawkes adopted the name Guido while fighting for the Spanish in the Low Countries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes I didn't get Carl's reference. The only thing I know about blowing the parliament is from the movie V for Vendetta (no comment please !). You should read the original comic book, it's much more interesting (and clearly mentions the Guy Fawkes connection). -- Aahz (a...@pythoncraft.com) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/ I saw `cout' being shifted Hello world times to the left and stopped right there. --Steve Gonedes -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Aug 19, 12:05 am, Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au wrote: Simon Forman sajmik...@gmail.com writes: On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 8:42 PM, Ben Finneyben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au wrote: We're all unified by our humanity. Bringing any god into the picture is surely counter to any goals of unity. Unity in humanity is, to my way of thinking, the same as Unity in God. Then you're playing Humpty-Dumpty games with words. You know very well that “God” has established meanings entirely different from “humanity”, and those meanings played a part in your choice of that word. I maintain that you can't consistently make a declaration in favour of human unity and unfounded religious assertions. I think Unity, like None, is a built-in singleton, so to speak. This is white noise. We are one family. Agreed. 3 I think we can peaceably leave it at that. Hear hear! (FWIW, I've always admired Humpty Dumpty's attitude to words. Have you ever read R.A. Wilson's Quantum Psychology?) Regards, ~Simon -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
Grant Edwards wrote: On 2009-08-18, Simon Forman sajmik...@gmail.com wrote: Sexism, racism, homophobia, religious intolerance, etc., all stem from a fundamental forgetfulness of our Unity in God (as I would put it) and this is perhaps the single greatest cause of human misery. You mean the single greatest cause of human misery isn't Microsoft Windows? No, emacs is responsible ! Hail to Vi ! JM -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
Simon Forman wrote: On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 8:03 PM, Steven D'Apranost...@remove-this-cybersource.com.au wrote: On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 17:13:02 -0400, Simon Forman wrote: Sexism, racism, homophobia, religious intolerance, etc., all stem from a fundamental forgetfulness of our Unity in God (as I would put it) and Of the tens of thousands of Gods that people have invented, which is the one we're supposed to believe in? I always forget which ones we're supposed to dismiss as nonsense, and which one we're not. Why the heck are you asking me? (I'd say /you/ are the God you should believe in.) Steven, a God... funny :o) No the only God we should surely worship is Guido, our BDFL :bow:. That is not questionable, and those who dare will be hung by the balls. (In order to be fairly cruel we should find an appropriate torture for our ladies, I don't want to be tagged as sexist). JM -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Aug 18, 8:49 pm, Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au wrote: Grant Edwards gra...@visi.com writes: On 2009-08-19, Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au wrote: Simon Forman sajmik...@gmail.com writes: We are one family. Agreed. That's not much comfort if you've seen the way many families get along with each other. Demonstrable facts, by nature of being independently verifiable, are a better point of unification than comforting illusions, however confidently asserted. You know, if you're going to escalate a budding flame war the least you could do is to choose to do it some other way than by following up to an obvious joke, probably one designed to diffuse the ill-feeling. Carl Banks -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Monday 17 August 2009 23:06:04 Carl Banks wrote: On Aug 17, 10:03 am, Jean-Michel Pichavant jeanmic...@sequans.com wrote: I'm no English native, but I already heard women/men referring to a group as guys, no matter that group gender configuration. It's even used for group composed exclusively of women. Moreover it looks like a *very* friendly form, so there is really nothing to worry about it. I like how being very friendly means calling people after a guy who tried to blow up the English Parliament. +1 QOTW - Hendrik -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Diversity in Python (was Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string)
On Tuesday 18 August 2009 06:45:39 Aahz wrote: In article pan.2009.08.18.04.34...@remove.this.cybersource.com.au, Steven D'Aprano ste...@remove.this.cybersource.com.au wrote: The comments were made a week ago -- why the sudden flurry of attention? Mainly an opportunity to flog the new diversity list. Here my English fails me - flog as in whip, or flog as in sell? - Hendrik -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
MRAB wrote: Carl Banks wrote: On Aug 17, 10:03 am, Jean-Michel Pichavant jeanmic...@sequans.com wrote: I'm no English native, but I already heard women/men referring to a group as guys, no matter that group gender configuration. It's even used for group composed exclusively of women. Moreover it looks like a *very* friendly form, so there is really nothing to worry about it. I like how being very friendly means calling people after a guy who tried to blow up the English Parliament. Guy Fawkes adopted the name Guido while fighting for the Spanish in the Low Countries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes I didn't get Carl's reference. The only thing I know about blowing the parliament is from the movie V for Vendetta (no comment please !). Now thanks to your link: In 18th-century England, the term guy was used to refer to an effigy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effigy of Fawkes, which would be paraded around town by children on the anniversary of the conspiracy Well, my knowledge is much too low to get this kind of reference from the start. :-/ JM -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 13:36:49 +0200, Jean-Michel Pichavant wrote: MRAB wrote: Carl Banks wrote: On Aug 17, 10:03 am, Jean-Michel Pichavant jeanmic...@sequans.com wrote: I'm no English native, but I already heard women/men referring to a group as guys, no matter that group gender configuration. It's even used for group composed exclusively of women. Moreover it looks like a *very* friendly form, so there is really nothing to worry about it. I like how being very friendly means calling people after a guy who tried to blow up the English Parliament. Guy Fawkes adopted the name Guido while fighting for the Spanish in the Low Countries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes I didn't get Carl's reference. The only thing I know about blowing the parliament is from the movie V for Vendetta (no comment please !). Now thanks to your link: In 18th-century England, the term guy was used to refer to an effigy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effigy of Fawkes, which would be paraded around town by children on the anniversary of the conspiracy Well, my knowledge is much too low to get this kind of reference from the start. :-/ Guy is an old English name, related to the old French name Gy and Italian Guido. It's originally derived from the Old German for wood or warrior. After Guy Fawkes tried to blow up the English Parliament house, and was executed, the British government encouraged people to burn effigies of him. These became known as guys, which eventually became slang for an ugly man, which later became slang for any man, and in recent years, any person. So the irony is that the friendly term guys, referring to a group of people, is derived from the name of an 18th century religious terrorist. One can only wonder whether in 200 years time people will walk into the office and say Hey you osamas, they're giving away free donuts down stairs, anyone want some? -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Diversity in Python (was Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string)
On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 12:12:14 +0200, Hendrik van Rooyen wrote: On Tuesday 18 August 2009 06:45:39 Aahz wrote: In article pan.2009.08.18.04.34...@remove.this.cybersource.com.au, Steven D'Aprano ste...@remove.this.cybersource.com.au wrote: The comments were made a week ago -- why the sudden flurry of attention? Mainly an opportunity to flog the new diversity list. Here my English fails me - flog as in whip, or flog as in sell? Almost certainly flog as in sell. But not literally sell, for money, but sell in the sense of convincing others it is a good list to join. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On 2009-08-17, Carl Banks pavlovevide...@gmail.com wrote: On Aug 17, 10:03?am, Jean-Michel Pichavant jeanmic...@sequans.com wrote: I'm no English native, but I already heard women/men referring to a group as guys, no matter that group gender configuration. It's even used for group composed exclusively of women. Moreover it looks like a *very* friendly form, so there is really nothing to worry about it. I like how being very friendly means calling people after a guy who tried to blow up the English Parliament. Everybody likes fireworks! -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! Where do your SOCKS at go when you lose them in visi.comth' WASHER? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
Robert Dailey: [...] It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help. Sorry, Robert, simply not acceptable. Whether designed to be funny or not it's the kind of inane remark I would be really happy never to see again. The problem is that we can't just let these things go by all the time (even though we aren't discussing a major crime here). If we do that it encourages (at best) an atmosphere of complacency and a feeling that it's OK to demean people in Python forums. I'd really like to see those *not* get a hold. regards Steve -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
Steve Holden wrote: Robert Dailey: [...] It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help. Sorry, Robert, simply not acceptable. Whether designed to be funny or not it's the kind of inane remark I would be really happy never to see again. The problem is that we can't just let these things go by all the time (even though we aren't discussing a major crime here). If we do that it encourages (at best) an atmosphere of complacency and a feeling that it's OK to demean people in Python forums. I'd really like to see those *not* get a hold. regards Steve Did you read the original post (this is an old one) ? Because quoting a joke out of its context is totally unfair. Anyway the hysteria that is surrounding this thread is just amazing. I'm waiting for more. JM -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Jean-Michel Pichavantjeanmic...@sequans.com wrote: Steve Holden wrote: Robert Dailey: [...] It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help. Sorry, Robert, simply not acceptable. Whether designed to be funny or not it's the kind of inane remark I would be really happy never to see again. The problem is that we can't just let these things go by all the time (even though we aren't discussing a major crime here). If we do that it encourages (at best) an atmosphere of complacency and a feeling that it's OK to demean people in Python forums. I'd really like to see those *not* get a hold. regards Steve Did you read the original post (this is an old one) ? Because quoting a joke out of its context is totally unfair. Unfair to whom? In any event, the context here seems to be a mixture of Guy Fawkes trivia and general disapproval of sexist remarks on c.l.p, so I don't see this comment as out of context. (For the record, I use guys to refer to groups of people regardless of their gender. I also use dude to refer to people regardless of their gender. The only person who has taken offense to this is my mom. I am not a dude. But she means she's not a cowboy, not not a male.) (Uh, she is, in fact, female.) Anyway the hysteria that is surrounding this thread is just amazing. I'm waiting for more. I don't feel hysterical, only appalled. The OP used a common slang term, someone mentioned that the term implies a group of males when in fact the group being addressed is mixed gender, and the OP replied that it was just a figure of speech. So far, so good. But then the OP made a sexist joke. He was called on it and issued a rather gracious apology, but then he dropped another sexist turd right in the middle of his otherwise model apology. I won't speak for anyone else, but I was appalled. Sexism, racism, homophobia, religious intolerance, etc., all stem from a fundamental forgetfulness of our Unity in God (as I would put it) and this is perhaps the single greatest cause of human misery. We are one family. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On 2009-08-18, Simon Forman sajmik...@gmail.com wrote: Sexism, racism, homophobia, religious intolerance, etc., all stem from a fundamental forgetfulness of our Unity in God (as I would put it) and this is perhaps the single greatest cause of human misery. You mean the single greatest cause of human misery isn't Microsoft Windows? -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! What I want to find at out is -- do parrots know visi.commuch about Astro-Turf? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On 8/18/2009 2:31 PM Unknown said... You mean the single greatest cause of human misery isn't Microsoft Windows? Either that or users... Sick-of-both-today-ly y'rs, Emile -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 17:13:02 -0400, Simon Forman wrote: Sexism, racism, homophobia, religious intolerance, etc., all stem from a fundamental forgetfulness of our Unity in God (as I would put it) and Of the tens of thousands of Gods that people have invented, which is the one we're supposed to believe in? I always forget which ones we're supposed to dismiss as nonsense, and which one we're not. this is perhaps the single greatest cause of human misery. Okay, we're Unified in God. Great. What does that actually mean, really? In the struggle to survive in a world of shortages, disease, natural disasters and disputes between well-meaning but incompatible viewpoints (to say nothing of the selfish and greedy), what practical difference does it make? -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
Simon Forman sajmik...@gmail.com writes: Sexism, racism, homophobia, religious intolerance, etc., all stem from a fundamental forgetfulness of our Unity in God (as I would put it) It seems odd, for someone who cites religious intolerance as a problem, to then assert an extremely divisive religious idea. We're all unified by our humanity. Bringing any god into the picture is surely counter to any goals of unity. We are one family. Agreed. -- \ “Are you thinking what I'm thinking, Pinky?” “Uh... yeah, | `\ Brain, but where are we going to find rubber pants our size?” | _o__) —_Pinky and The Brain_ | Ben Finney -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 8:03 PM, Steven D'Apranost...@remove-this-cybersource.com.au wrote: On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 17:13:02 -0400, Simon Forman wrote: Sexism, racism, homophobia, religious intolerance, etc., all stem from a fundamental forgetfulness of our Unity in God (as I would put it) and Of the tens of thousands of Gods that people have invented, which is the one we're supposed to believe in? I always forget which ones we're supposed to dismiss as nonsense, and which one we're not. Why the heck are you asking me? (I'd say /you/ are the God you should believe in.) this is perhaps the single greatest cause of human misery. Okay, we're Unified in God. Great. What does that actually mean, really? In the struggle to survive in a world of shortages, disease, natural disasters and disputes between well-meaning but incompatible viewpoints (to say nothing of the selfish and greedy), what practical difference does it make? It means (to me, at least) that underlying all the BS and misery there's a reason to hope, a reality the transcends this squalid mud-ball Earth, and can overcome it completely if tapped. It's more than a symbol with meaning, Unity is a phenomenon that can be lived, experienced. It can be practiced and deepened. Done well, the practical difference it makes defies measurement. (That's why calling folks on sexist behavior is important enough to butt in on a thread on usenet with an OT reprimand. IMHO) Regards, ~Simon -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 8:42 PM, Ben Finneyben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au wrote: Simon Forman sajmik...@gmail.com writes: Sexism, racism, homophobia, religious intolerance, etc., all stem from a fundamental forgetfulness of our Unity in God (as I would put it) It seems odd, for someone who cites religious intolerance as a problem, to then assert an extremely divisive religious idea. Well, I did say, (as I would put it) to try to cushion the blow. We're all unified by our humanity. Bringing any god into the picture is surely counter to any goals of unity. Unity in humanity is, to my way of thinking, the same as Unity in God. I think Unity, like None, is a built-in singleton, so to speak. We are one family. Agreed. 3 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Aug 18, 7:59�am, Steven D'Aprano st...@remove-this- cybersource.com.au wrote: On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 13:36:49 +0200, Jean-Michel Pichavant wrote: MRAB wrote: Carl Banks wrote: On Aug 17, 10:03 am, Jean-Michel Pichavant jeanmic...@sequans.com wrote: I'm no English native, but I already heard women/men referring to a group as guys, no matter that group gender configuration. It's even used for group composed exclusively of women. Moreover it looks like a *very* friendly form, so there is really nothing to worry about it. I like how being very friendly means calling people after a guy who tried to blow up the English Parliament. Guy Fawkes adopted the name Guido while fighting for the Spanish in the Low Countries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes I didn't get Carl's reference. The only thing I know about blowing the parliament is from the movie V for Vendetta (no comment please !). Now thanks to your link: In 18th-century England, the term guy was used to refer to an effigy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effigy of Fawkes, which would be paraded around town by children on the anniversary of the conspiracy Well, my knowledge is much too low to get this kind of reference from the start. :-/ Guy is an old English name, related to the old French name Gy and Italian Guido. It's originally derived from the Old German for wood or warrior. After Guy Fawkes tried to blow up the English Parliament house, and was executed, the British government encouraged people to burn effigies of him. These became known as guys, which eventually became slang for an ugly man, which later became slang for any man, and in recent years, any person. So the irony is that the friendly term guys, referring to a group of people, is derived from the name of an 18th century You're off by at least a century. religious terrorist. As were all members of parliament including the king. One can only wonder whether in 200 years time people will walk into the office and say Hey you osamas, they're giving away free donuts down stairs, anyone want some? joke Q: What's white and flies across the ocean? A: Lord Mountbatten's tennis shoes. /joke Ain't so fuckin' funny, is it? (Unless you're Irish, in which case it's hysterical). -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Aug 17, 11:35�pm, Carl Banks pavlovevide...@gmail.com wrote: On Aug 17, 8:49�pm, Mensanator mensana...@aol.com wrote: On Aug 17, 8:04 pm, Carl Banks pavlovevide...@gmail.com wrote: On Aug 17, 5:40 pm, Mensanator mensana...@aol.com wrote: On Aug 17, 4:06 pm, Carl Banks pavlovevide...@gmail.com wrote: On Aug 17, 10:03 am, Jean-Michel Pichavant jeanmic...@sequans.com wrote: I'm no English native, but I already heard women/men referring to a group as guys, no matter that group gender configuration. It's even used for group composed exclusively of women. Moreover it looks like a *very* friendly form, so there is really nothing to worry about it. I like how being very friendly means calling people after a guy who tried to blow up the English Parliament. So? I also like how making an amusing pointless observation Pointless, yes, but what was amusing abot the observation? The irony that in being friendly that you're calling someone a terrorist. � People of Irish Catholic heritage find that extremely offensive, like asking how many Jews you can fit into a Volswagen. I guess I shouldn't have expected you to get it. Oh, I got it alright, moreso than you could possibly imagine. gets people all huffy. That wasn't huffy. You want to see huffy, make a wisecrack comparing mothballs to Zyklon B, you'll REALLY get a load of huffy replies. (BTW, lest anyone is not aware, that is the origin of the word guy, It most certainly is not. My dictionary disagrees with you. hen yor dictionary is wrong. Or, more likely, you have comprehension problems. People have been named Guy for centuries prior to Mr. Fawkes. Try reading my whole post before shouting your mouth off. Maybe the origin of that word's useage as a genric reference to a male, but you didn't say that. this was not some random association.) Penny for the guy? Probably that phrase was part of the word's gradual common adoption. Kinda why I mentioned it. Duh. Carl Banks -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Aug 18, 6:36�am, Jean-Michel Pichavant jeanmic...@sequans.com wrote: MRAB wrote: Carl Banks wrote: On Aug 17, 10:03 am, Jean-Michel Pichavant jeanmic...@sequans.com wrote: I'm no English native, but I already heard women/men referring to a group as guys, no matter that group gender configuration. It's even used for group composed exclusively of women. Moreover it looks like a *very* friendly form, so there is really nothing to worry about it. I like how being very friendly means calling people after a guy who tried to blow up the English Parliament. Guy Fawkes adopted the name Guido while fighting for the Spanish in the Low Countries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes I didn't get Carl's reference. The only thing I know about blowing the parliament is from the movie V for Vendetta (no comment please !). Now thanks to your link: In 18th-century England, the term guy was used to refer to an effigy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effigy of Fawkes, which would be paraded around town by children on the anniversary of the conspiracy Well, my knowledge is much too low to get this kind of reference from the start. :-/ So I guess you have no clue WHY Mr. Fawkes would want to blow up the parliment and assassinate the king. Read up a bit on how just how the Church of England came to be and it will be quite obvious. On some TV show, someone did a re-creation of that event to see what would have happened had he not gotten caught. They built a life-size mockuup of the room under which the gunpowder kegs were stashed and filled the room with dummys. The blast was spectacular. They eventually found the head of the dummy representing king James a couple miles away. Or maybe it was kilometers. Either way, the conclusion was it was very lucky to have worked out the way it did. JM -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Diversity in Python (was Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string)
In article 461cc6f1-fc23-4bc7-a719-6f29babf8...@o15g2000yqm.googlegroups.com, Robert Dailey rcdai...@gmail.com wrote: It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help. Well, I'm sorry to see this, it means I was wrong about the lack of sexism in the Python community. I encourage anyone who wants to improve the situation to join the new diversity list: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity -- Aahz (a...@pythoncraft.com) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/ I saw `cout' being shifted Hello world times to the left and stopped right there. --Steve Gonedes -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On 2009-08-11, Bearophile bearophileh...@lycos.com wrote: Robert Dailey: This breaks the flow of scope. Would you guys solve this problem by moving failMsg into global scope? Perhaps through some other type of syntax? There are gals too here. Straying a bit OT, but I find this particular issue rather fascinating. At least in the US, guys is now pretty much gender-neutral according to my casual research (mostly just paying attention to informal speach). Oddly, it still seems to be masculine when singular. Though one commonly hears a group of females addressed as you guys or refered to as those guys, one never hears a single female referred to as a guy or that guy. It is a bit tricky, however, since a phrase like a group of guys still seems to refer to just males since the word guys in that case is being applied individually to a plurality of persons rather being applied collectivelly to a single group -- if that makes any sense. I've actually discussed this with a a number of female friends, and they almost all thought the term gals was condescending and actually preferred to be referred to collectively as guys. -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! You can't hurt me!! at I have an ASSUMABLE visi.comMORTGAGE!! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
Grant Edwards wrote: On 2009-08-11, Bearophile bearophileh...@lycos.com wrote: Robert Dailey: This breaks the flow of scope. Would you guys solve this problem by moving failMsg into global scope? Perhaps through some other type of syntax? There are gals too here. Straying a bit OT, but I find this particular issue rather fascinating. At least in the US, guys is now pretty much gender-neutral according to my casual research (mostly just paying attention to informal speach). Oddly, it still seems to be masculine when singular. Though one commonly hears a group of females addressed as you guys or refered to as those guys, one never hears a single female referred to as a guy or that guy. It is a bit tricky, however, since a phrase like a group of guys still seems to refer to just males since the word guys in that case is being applied individually to a plurality of persons rather being applied collectivelly to a single group -- if that makes any sense. I've actually discussed this with a a number of female friends, and they almost all thought the term gals was condescending and actually preferred to be referred to collectively as guys. I'm no English native, but I already heard women/men referring to a group as guys, no matter that group gender configuration. It's even used for group composed exclusively of women. Moreover it looks like a *very* friendly form, so there is really nothing to worry about it. Forms like: Hi guys, You guys should do something..., Come on guys... are very friendly and gender-neutral. JM -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
Simon Brunning si...@brunningonline.net (SB) wrote: SB 2009/8/11 Robert Dailey rcdai...@gmail.com: On Aug 11, 3:40 pm, Bearophile bearophileh...@lycos.com wrote: There are gals too here. It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help. SB Give the attitudes still prevalent in our industry (cf SB http://tinyurl.com/c5nqju and many more), I'm sorry to say that I SB don't think this is funny. seconded -- Piet van Oostrum p...@cs.uu.nl URL: http://pietvanoostrum.com [PGP 8DAE142BE17999C4] Private email: p...@vanoostrum.org -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Diversity in Python (was Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string)
Aahz wrote: In article 461cc6f1-fc23-4bc7-a719-6f29babf8...@o15g2000yqm.googlegroups.com, Robert Dailey rcdai...@gmail.com wrote: It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help. Well, I'm sorry to see this, it means I was wrong about the lack of sexism in the Python community. I encourage anyone who wants to improve the situation to join the new diversity list: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity Are you suggesting this list reject part of the community regarding its sexual orientation, ethnicity, size, culture? If that was the case I'd like to know about it. I would really want to know how you'd guess my gender (could be some clue somewhere), my sexual orientation, my religion and so on. How can you reject someone regarding informations you don't have ? That's the beauty of this mailing list, it has diversity, by design. We even welcome people that mixes up joke with sexist aggression, not to mention how open minded we are :o) Beside, the day you'll meet a real act of sexism in this list, please know that people talk and act on their own, do not assign their attitude to the whole community. You'll know that Python is sexist the day you'll find the title 'No women allowed' on the python main document page. JM PS : Newbies are not welcome here ! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Diversity in Python (was Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string)
You'll know that Python is sexist the day you'll find the title 'No women allowed' on the python main document page. Good God I hope you're being ironic. On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 10:23:39 -0700, Jean-Michel Pichavant jeanmic...@sequans.com wrote: Aahz wrote: In article 461cc6f1-fc23-4bc7-a719-6f29babf8...@o15g2000yqm.googlegroups.com, Robert Dailey rcdai...@gmail.com wrote: It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help. Well, I'm sorry to see this, it means I was wrong about the lack of sexism in the Python community. I encourage anyone who wants to improve the situation to join the new diversity list: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity Are you suggesting this list reject part of the community regarding its sexual orientation, ethnicity, size, culture? If that was the case I'd like to know about it. I would really want to know how you'd guess my gender (could be some clue somewhere), my sexual orientation, my religion and so on. How can you reject someone regarding informations you don't have ? That's the beauty of this mailing list, it has diversity, by design. We even welcome people that mixes up joke with sexist aggression, not to mention how open minded we are :o) Beside, the day you'll meet a real act of sexism in this list, please know that people talk and act on their own, do not assign their attitude to the whole community. You'll know that Python is sexist the day you'll find the title 'No women allowed' on the python main document page. JM PS : Newbies are not welcome here ! -- Rami Chowdhury Never attribute to malice that which can be attributed to stupidity -- Hanlon's Razor 408-597-7068 (US) / 07875-841-046 (UK) / 0189-245544 (BD) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Diversity in Python (was Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string)
On 17 Aug, 19:23, Jean-Michel Pichavant jeanmic...@sequans.com wrote: Are you suggesting this list reject part of the community regarding its sexual orientation, ethnicity, size, culture? If that was the case I'd like to know about it. Careful: you probably meant to write rejects, not reject. That changes the meaning of what you've written somewhat. I would really want to know how you'd guess my gender (could be some clue somewhere), my sexual orientation, my religion and so on. How can you reject someone regarding informations you don't have ? Well, everyone can of course hide their actual identity on the Internet, but when someone references a group of people with a juvenile remark (if we are being charitable about the matter), it has nothing to do with guessing the characteristics of individuals. The whole excuse that anonymity defends against insults and harassment is a bit like saying that slinging mud at everyone is acceptable as long as everyone is encouraged to do it and nobody is wearing their nicest clothes. And unless your idea of a Python-related conference is something close to a fancy-dress event with everyone in character - which would obviously limit the effectiveness of such an event - you presumably understand that there is a genuine need for continuity between interactions on and off the Internet. This somewhat undermines your argument. That's the beauty of this mailing list, it has diversity, by design. An explanation is needed here for this not to sound like conversational padding. We even welcome people that mixes up joke with sexist aggression, not to mention how open minded we are :o) Well, jokes actually need an amusing side, regardless of how edgy (juvenile is typically the more accurate term) the joke- teller is trying to be, and that was completely absent from the remark in question. There's little room for error in communication over a medium like this one, as I pointed out with your opening sentence. And much as it probably upsets the unfettered free speech advocates, we should be able to assert that sexist aggression is not acceptable behaviour amongst those who seek to participate in our community. Paul -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Aug 17, 10:03 am, Jean-Michel Pichavant jeanmic...@sequans.com wrote: I'm no English native, but I already heard women/men referring to a group as guys, no matter that group gender configuration. It's even used for group composed exclusively of women. Moreover it looks like a *very* friendly form, so there is really nothing to worry about it. I like how being very friendly means calling people after a guy who tried to blow up the English Parliament. Carl Banks -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Diversity in Python (was Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string)
On Aug 17, 8:44 am, a...@pythoncraft.com (Aahz) wrote: In article 461cc6f1-fc23-4bc7-a719-6f29babf8...@o15g2000yqm.googlegroups.com, Robert Dailey rcdai...@gmail.com wrote: It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help. Well, I'm sorry to see this, it means I was wrong about the lack of sexism in the Python community. Oh come on, one newbie making an off-color joke is not any sort of reflection of the community as a whole. Anyway it's pretty naive to expect what is now a large community to avoid bad eggs altogether. Price you pay for popularity. Carl Banks -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Diversity in Python (was Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string)
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 2:12 PM, Carl Bankspavlovevide...@gmail.com wrote: On Aug 17, 8:44 am, a...@pythoncraft.com (Aahz) wrote: In article 461cc6f1-fc23-4bc7-a719-6f29babf8...@o15g2000yqm.googlegroups.com, Robert Dailey rcdai...@gmail.com wrote: It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help. Well, I'm sorry to see this, it means I was wrong about the lack of sexism in the Python community. Oh come on, one newbie making an off-color joke is not any sort of reflection of the community as a whole. Anyway it's pretty naive to expect what is now a large community to avoid bad eggs altogether. Price you pay for popularity. Agreed on both points, but the lack of any reprimanding for making said inappropriate joke /would/ reflect badly on the community. Fortunately, said person's behavior has now been condemned by virtue of this thread; it's a step in the right direction. Cheers, Chris -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
Carl Banks wrote: On Aug 17, 10:03 am, Jean-Michel Pichavant jeanmic...@sequans.com wrote: I'm no English native, but I already heard women/men referring to a group as guys, no matter that group gender configuration. It's even used for group composed exclusively of women. Moreover it looks like a *very* friendly form, so there is really nothing to worry about it. I like how being very friendly means calling people after a guy who tried to blow up the English Parliament. Guy Fawkes adopted the name Guido while fighting for the Spanish in the Low Countries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
Robert Dailey rcdai...@gmail.com writes: On Aug 11, 3:40 pm, Bearophile bearophileh...@lycos.com wrote: Robert Dailey: This breaks the flow of scope. Would you guys solve this problem by […] There are gals too here. It's a figure of speech. Indeed. When I use the term “guys” as a form of address, it's intended to be gender-neutral. And besides, why would I want programming advice from a woman? lol. No, that's not worth any laughter, especially because there are still too many people who seriously think that way. It's totally unacceptable. Please don't promote sexist garbage like that here. -- \“With Lisp or Forth, a master programmer has unlimited power | `\ and expressiveness. With Python, even a regular guy can reach | _o__) for the stars.” —Raymond Hettinger | Ben Finney -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Aug 12, 6:52 am, Robert Dailey rcdai...@gmail.com wrote: On Aug 11, 3:40 pm, Bearophile bearophileh...@lycos.com wrote: Robert Dailey: This breaks the flow of scope. Would you guys solve this problem by moving failMsg into global scope? Perhaps through some other type of syntax? There are gals too here. This may help:http://docs.python.org/library/textwrap.html#textwrap.dedent Bye, bearophile It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help. Please consider having an attitude transplant. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Aug 17, 4:06 pm, Carl Banks pavlovevide...@gmail.com wrote: On Aug 17, 10:03 am, Jean-Michel Pichavant jeanmic...@sequans.com wrote: I'm no English native, but I already heard women/men referring to a group as guys, no matter that group gender configuration. It's even used for group composed exclusively of women. Moreover it looks like a *very* friendly form, so there is really nothing to worry about it. I like how being very friendly means calling people after a guy who tried to blow up the English Parliament. So? Carl Banks -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Aug 17, 5:40 pm, Mensanator mensana...@aol.com wrote: On Aug 17, 4:06 pm, Carl Banks pavlovevide...@gmail.com wrote: On Aug 17, 10:03 am, Jean-Michel Pichavant jeanmic...@sequans.com wrote: I'm no English native, but I already heard women/men referring to a group as guys, no matter that group gender configuration. It's even used for group composed exclusively of women. Moreover it looks like a *very* friendly form, so there is really nothing to worry about it. I like how being very friendly means calling people after a guy who tried to blow up the English Parliament. So? I also like how making an amusing pointless observation gets people all huffy. (BTW, lest anyone is not aware, that is the origin of the word guy, this was not some random association.) Carl Banks -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Aug 17, 8:04�pm, Carl Banks pavlovevide...@gmail.com wrote: On Aug 17, 5:40�pm, Mensanator mensana...@aol.com wrote: On Aug 17, 4:06�pm, Carl Banks pavlovevide...@gmail.com wrote: On Aug 17, 10:03�am, Jean-Michel Pichavant jeanmic...@sequans.com wrote: I'm no English native, but I already heard women/men referring to a group as guys, no matter that group gender configuration. It's even used for group composed exclusively of women. Moreover it looks like a *very* friendly form, so there is really nothing to worry about it. I like how being very friendly means calling people after a guy who tried to blow up the English Parliament. So? I also like how making an amusing pointless observation Pointless, yes, but what was amusing abot the observation? gets people all huffy. That wasn't huffy. You want to see huffy, make a wisecrack comparing mothballs to Zyklon B, you'll REALLY get a load of huffy replies. (BTW, lest anyone is not aware, that is the origin of the word guy, It most certainly is not. Maybe the origin of that word's useage as a genric reference to a male, but you didn't say that. this was not some random association.) Penny for the guy? Carl Banks -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Diversity in Python (was Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string)
On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 14:31:51 -0700, Chris Rebert wrote: Oh come on, one newbie making an off-color joke is not any sort of reflection of the community as a whole. Anyway it's pretty naive to expect what is now a large community to avoid bad eggs altogether. Price you pay for popularity. Agreed on both points, but the lack of any reprimanding for making said inappropriate joke /would/ reflect badly on the community. Fortunately, said person's behavior has now been condemned by virtue of this thread; it's a step in the right direction. Pardon me, but he has been slapped, a number of times. Check the original thread, you'll see that the OP was slapped for his stupid joke, then slapped again for another dismissive comment after the first reprimand. You might argue he wasn't slapped *enough*, but that's another story. Personally, I thought he was either trolling for a reaction, or he was an old-fuddy-duddy (regardless of biological age), and either way reacting to his comments would just draw attention to something which is best dealt with with a cold-shoulder. Reinforce the good behaviour, shun the bad. The comments were made a week ago -- why the sudden flurry of attention? -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Aug 17, 8:49 pm, Mensanator mensana...@aol.com wrote: On Aug 17, 8:04 pm, Carl Banks pavlovevide...@gmail.com wrote: On Aug 17, 5:40 pm, Mensanator mensana...@aol.com wrote: On Aug 17, 4:06 pm, Carl Banks pavlovevide...@gmail.com wrote: On Aug 17, 10:03 am, Jean-Michel Pichavant jeanmic...@sequans.com wrote: I'm no English native, but I already heard women/men referring to a group as guys, no matter that group gender configuration. It's even used for group composed exclusively of women. Moreover it looks like a *very* friendly form, so there is really nothing to worry about it. I like how being very friendly means calling people after a guy who tried to blow up the English Parliament. So? I also like how making an amusing pointless observation Pointless, yes, but what was amusing abot the observation? The irony that in being friendly that you're calling someone a terrorist. I guess I shouldn't have expected you to get it. gets people all huffy. That wasn't huffy. You want to see huffy, make a wisecrack comparing mothballs to Zyklon B, you'll REALLY get a load of huffy replies. (BTW, lest anyone is not aware, that is the origin of the word guy, It most certainly is not. My dictionary disagrees with you. Maybe the origin of that word's useage as a genric reference to a male, but you didn't say that. this was not some random association.) Penny for the guy? Probably that phrase was part of the word's gradual common adoption. Carl Banks -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 18:04:58 -0700, Carl Banks wrote: On Aug 17, 5:40 pm, Mensanator mensana...@aol.com wrote: On Aug 17, 4:06 pm, Carl Banks pavlovevide...@gmail.com wrote: On Aug 17, 10:03 am, Jean-Michel Pichavant jeanmic...@sequans.com wrote: I'm no English native, but I already heard women/men referring to a group as guys, no matter that group gender configuration. It's even used for group composed exclusively of women. Moreover it looks like a *very* friendly form, so there is really nothing to worry about it. I like how being very friendly means calling people after a guy who tried to blow up the English Parliament. So? I also like how making an amusing pointless observation gets people all huffy. (BTW, lest anyone is not aware, that is the origin of the word guy, this was not some random association.) Yes, apparently the slang term guy for man (and these days, person) was derived from Guy Fawkes: http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-guy1.htm but the name itself is much older, and comes from Old German for wood or warrior. In old French, it was Gy, and in Italian (and presumably Dutch) it is Guido. http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Guy http://www.blurtit.com/q113276.html You'll also note that guy the noun has a number of meanings: http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=guy I don't know if there's any point to all this, but it's interesting, even if off-topic. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Diversity in Python (was Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string)
In article pan.2009.08.18.04.34...@remove.this.cybersource.com.au, Steven D'Aprano ste...@remove.this.cybersource.com.au wrote: The comments were made a week ago -- why the sudden flurry of attention? Mainly an opportunity to flog the new diversity list. -- Aahz (a...@pythoncraft.com) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/ I saw `cout' being shifted Hello world times to the left and stopped right there. --Steve Gonedes -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 21:35:48 -0700, Carl Banks wrote: I like how being very friendly means calling people after a guy who tried to blow up the English Parliament. So? I also like how making an amusing pointless observation Pointless, yes, but what was amusing abot the observation? The irony that in being friendly that you're calling someone a terrorist. Please, the term is Freedom Fighter. I guess I shouldn't have expected you to get it. Ouch! Nasty! Is there something in the air today? People are short-tempered and grouchy all over the place... -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
2009/8/11 Robert Dailey rcdai...@gmail.com: On Aug 11, 3:40 pm, Bearophile bearophileh...@lycos.com wrote: There are gals too here. It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help. Give the attitudes still prevalent in our industry (cf http://tinyurl.com/c5nqju and many more), I'm sorry to say that I don't think this is funny. -- Cheers, Simon B. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Tuesday 11 August 2009 22:52:34 Robert Dailey wrote: On Aug 11, 3:40 pm, Bearophile bearophileh...@lycos.com wrote: Robert Dailey: This breaks the flow of scope. Would you guys solve this problem by moving failMsg into global scope? Perhaps through some other type of syntax? There are gals too here. This may help:http://docs.python.org/library/textwrap.html#textwrap.dedent Bye, bearophile It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help. Well it may come as a surprise to you, but it was a woman who wrote one of the first compilers. She became an Admiral in the US navy as a result. If I recall correctly, her name was Grace Hooper. How many compilers have you written from scratch, without a compiler to help you? :-) - Hendrik -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
Hendrik van Rooyen wrote: On Tuesday 11 August 2009 22:52:34 Robert Dailey wrote: On Aug 11, 3:40 pm, Bearophile bearophileh...@lycos.com wrote: Robert Dailey: This breaks the flow of scope. Would you guys solve this problem by moving failMsg into global scope? Perhaps through some other type of syntax? There are gals too here. This may help:http://docs.python.org/library/textwrap.html#textwrap.dedent Bye, bearophile It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help. Well it may come as a surprise to you, but it was a woman who wrote one of the first compilers. She became an Admiral in the US navy as a result. If I recall correctly, her name was Grace Hooper. Grace Hopper. The saying It's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission is attributed to her. How many compilers have you written from scratch, without a compiler to help you? :-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
Simon Brunning wrote: 2009/8/11 Robert Dailey rcdai...@gmail.com: On Aug 11, 3:40 pm, Bearophile bearophileh...@lycos.com wrote: There are gals too here. It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help. Give the attitudes still prevalent in our industry (cf http://tinyurl.com/c5nqju and many more), I'm sorry to say that I don't think this is funny. Having someone present technical informations with porn content cannot be qualified as prevalent in our industry. I would even dare to say this is the opposite, it is almost unique. I would also add that Robert was very far from this attitude, I consider his joke as a friendly tickle, not a male chauvinist aggression. I'm no women, but I'm sure they are as capable as me, not to say more, of making the distinction. It has been said this list is not very friendly to newbies, let's not make it hostile to gentle jokes (even those not funny) when thanking helpers. JM -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On 01:27 pm, jeanmic...@sequans.com wrote: Simon Brunning wrote: 2009/8/11 Robert Dailey rcdai...@gmail.com: On Aug 11, 3:40 pm, Bearophile bearophileh...@lycos.com wrote: There are gals too here. It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help. Give the attitudes still prevalent in our industry (cf http://tinyurl.com/c5nqju and many more), I'm sorry to say that I don't think this is funny. Having someone present technical informations with porn content cannot be qualified as prevalent in our industry. I would even dare to say this is the opposite, it is almost unique. I would also add that Robert was very far from this attitude, I consider his joke as a friendly tickle, not a male chauvinist aggression. I'm no women, but I'm sure they are as capable as me, not to say more, of making the distinction. It has been said this list is not very friendly to newbies, let's not make it hostile to gentle jokes (even those not funny) when thanking helpers. It's lots of little things like this which combine to create an environment which is less friendly towards women than it is towards others. You might read it as a joke, others might not. Even if it is a joke, it's in poor taste and doesn't really belong on python-list. There's a difference between pointing out inappropriate behavior and being unfriendly. Hopefully Robert got help with his problem. That's what the list is here for. Having accomplished that, it is not unfriendly to ask him not to make disparaging comments, jokes or otherwise, about groups of people. Jean-Paul -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Aug 12, 9:09 am, exar...@twistedmatrix.com wrote: On 01:27 pm, jeanmic...@sequans.com wrote: Simon Brunning wrote: 2009/8/11 Robert Dailey rcdai...@gmail.com: On Aug 11, 3:40 pm, Bearophile bearophileh...@lycos.com wrote: There are gals too here. It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help. Give the attitudes still prevalent in our industry (cf http://tinyurl.com/c5nqju and many more), I'm sorry to say that I don't think this is funny. Having someone present technical informations with porn content cannot be qualified as prevalent in our industry. I would even dare to say this is the opposite, it is almost unique. I would also add that Robert was very far from this attitude, I consider his joke as a friendly tickle, not a male chauvinist aggression. I'm no women, but I'm sure they are as capable as me, not to say more, of making the distinction. It has been said this list is not very friendly to newbies, let's not make it hostile to gentle jokes (even those not funny) when thanking helpers. It's lots of little things like this which combine to create an environment which is less friendly towards women than it is towards others. You might read it as a joke, others might not. Even if it is a joke, it's in poor taste and doesn't really belong on python-list. There's a difference between pointing out inappropriate behavior and being unfriendly. Hopefully Robert got help with his problem. That's what the list is here for. Having accomplished that, it is not unfriendly to ask him not to make disparaging comments, jokes or otherwise, about groups of people. Jean-Paul Hey everyone, I was actually joking about my remark, I was making fun of the fact that Bearophile took my figure of speech literally. I have worked with a lot of women in the past and they even use guys to refer to everyone in a room (When there were obviously other females in that room as well). On a more serious note, I do apologize to those offended by my remark. I realize that these things can be a touchy subject for some people. I expected more of a laid-back attitude from everyone. No need to be so serious all the time. I cannot completely doubt that there are logical women out there. I just haven't seen one yet. But that doesn't mean I'm a sexist. With my apology presented, I would like to propose that we end the discussion here. As I said, this is a very sensitive subject and this thread could spin way out of control if we don't just ignore the issue. For those that took it as a friendly, harmless joke, hopefully you had a laugh. For those that took it seriously or as an offense, please take my apology to heart. Thanks once again to everyone for your help. I've long been a member of this community and I really appreciate the continuous support I've been receiving! Take care everyone! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Aug 12, 9:41 am, Robert Dailey rcdai...@gmail.com wrote: On Aug 12, 9:09 am, exar...@twistedmatrix.com wrote: On 01:27 pm, jeanmic...@sequans.com wrote: Simon Brunning wrote: 2009/8/11 Robert Dailey rcdai...@gmail.com: On Aug 11, 3:40 pm, Bearophile bearophileh...@lycos.com wrote: There are gals too here. It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help. Give the attitudes still prevalent in our industry (cf http://tinyurl.com/c5nqju and many more), I'm sorry to say that I don't think this is funny. Having someone present technical informations with porn content cannot be qualified as prevalent in our industry. I would even dare to say this is the opposite, it is almost unique. I would also add that Robert was very far from this attitude, I consider his joke as a friendly tickle, not a male chauvinist aggression. I'm no women, but I'm sure they are as capable as me, not to say more, of making the distinction. It has been said this list is not very friendly to newbies, let's not make it hostile to gentle jokes (even those not funny) when thanking helpers. It's lots of little things like this which combine to create an environment which is less friendly towards women than it is towards others. You might read it as a joke, others might not. Even if it is a joke, it's in poor taste and doesn't really belong on python-list. There's a difference between pointing out inappropriate behavior and being unfriendly. Hopefully Robert got help with his problem. That's what the list is here for. Having accomplished that, it is not unfriendly to ask him not to make disparaging comments, jokes or otherwise, about groups of people. Jean-Paul Hey everyone, I was actually joking about my remark, I was making fun of the fact that Bearophile took my figure of speech literally. I have worked with a lot of women in the past and they even use guys to refer to everyone in a room (When there were obviously other females in that room as well). On a more serious note, I do apologize to those offended by my remark. I realize that these things can be a touchy subject for some people. I expected more of a laid-back attitude from everyone. No need to be so serious all the time. I cannot completely doubt that there are logical women out there. I just haven't seen one yet. But that doesn't mean I'm a sexist. With my apology presented, I would like to propose that we end the discussion here. As I said, this is a very sensitive subject and this thread could spin way out of control if we don't just ignore the issue. For those that took it as a friendly, harmless joke, hopefully you had a laugh. For those that took it seriously or as an offense, please take my apology to heart. Thanks once again to everyone for your help. I've long been a member of this community and I really appreciate the continuous support I've been receiving! Take care everyone! Oh, one last thing... So everyone knows, I chose the following formatting solution to multiline strings: def MyFunction(): multilineString = ( 'This is a string that spans ' 'multiple lines.' ) print( multilineString ) I think this is as good as it is going to get for my personal needs. However, I do not like having to put a space at the end of each string. I've also done this in the past, which is slightly more ugly: multilineString = ( 'This is a string that spans', 'multiple lines.' ) print( ' '.join( multilineString ) ) This will add the spaces between lines for you. However, in a production quality application I would always have strings external to the scripts and have an advanced localization system. However this is useful for quick little scripts that I want to keep tidy. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Aug 12, 10:41 am, Robert Dailey rcdai...@gmail.com wrote: On Aug 12, 9:09 am, exar...@twistedmatrix.com wrote: On 01:27 pm, jeanmic...@sequans.com wrote: Simon Brunning wrote: 2009/8/11 Robert Dailey rcdai...@gmail.com: On Aug 11, 3:40 pm, Bearophile bearophileh...@lycos.com wrote: There are gals too here. It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help. Give the attitudes still prevalent in our industry (cf http://tinyurl.com/c5nqju and many more), I'm sorry to say that I don't think this is funny. Having someone present technical informations with porn content cannot be qualified as prevalent in our industry. I would even dare to say this is the opposite, it is almost unique. I would also add that Robert was very far from this attitude, I consider his joke as a friendly tickle, not a male chauvinist aggression. I'm no women, but I'm sure they are as capable as me, not to say more, of making the distinction. It has been said this list is not very friendly to newbies, let's not make it hostile to gentle jokes (even those not funny) when thanking helpers. It's lots of little things like this which combine to create an environment which is less friendly towards women than it is towards others. You might read it as a joke, others might not. Even if it is a joke, it's in poor taste and doesn't really belong on python-list. There's a difference between pointing out inappropriate behavior and being unfriendly. Hopefully Robert got help with his problem. That's what the list is here for. Having accomplished that, it is not unfriendly to ask him not to make disparaging comments, jokes or otherwise, about groups of people. Jean-Paul Hey everyone, I was actually joking about my remark, I was making fun of the fact that Bearophile took my figure of speech literally. I have worked with a lot of women in the past and they even use guys to refer to everyone in a room (When there were obviously other females in that room as well). On a more serious note, I do apologize to those offended by my remark. I realize that these things can be a touchy subject for some people. I expected more of a laid-back attitude from everyone. No need to be so serious all the time. I cannot completely doubt that there are logical women out there. I just haven't seen one yet. But that doesn't mean I'm a sexist. Oh my. And you were doing so well. You haven't seen a logical woman? Perhaps you're blind because your eyes were torn out by a raging marmoset? Guess what? Thinking (or just saying) that /does/ mean you're a sexist. (Even if it was just another friendly, harmless joke.) With my apology presented, I would like to propose that we end the discussion here. As I said, this is a very sensitive subject and this thread could spin way out of control if we don't just ignore the issue. For those that took it as a friendly, harmless joke, hopefully you had a laugh. For those that took it seriously or as an offense, please take my apology to heart. Thanks once again to everyone for your help. I've long been a member of this community and I really appreciate the continuous support I've been receiving! Take care everyone! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 07:47:58 -0700, Robert Dailey wrote: On Aug 12, 9:41 am, Robert Dailey rcdai...@gmail.com wrote: ... I was actually joking about my remark, I was making fun of the fact that Bearophile took my figure of speech literally. Keep in mind that the Internet is a global forum, and not everyone here speaks English as a first language. I believe Bearophile is one of those. Although his, or possibly her, English is excellent, it wouldn't surprise me that (s)he would misinterpret guys as just referring to men. I'm a native English speaker, and I would have done the same. I have worked with a lot of women in the past and they even use guys to refer to everyone in a room (When there were obviously other females in that room as well). Yes, I've seen this myself, but it's still uncommon enough to surprise me every time I see it. On a more serious note, I do apologize to those offended by my remark. I realize that these things can be a touchy subject for some people. I expected more of a laid-back attitude from everyone. No need to be so serious all the time. I cannot completely doubt that there are logical women out there. I just haven't seen one yet. That's okay, I haven't seen terribly many logical men out there either. Oh, one last thing... So everyone knows, I chose the following formatting solution to multiline strings: def MyFunction(): multilineString = ( 'This is a string that spans ' 'multiple lines.' ) print( multilineString ) I think this is as good as it is going to get for my personal needs. However, I do not like having to put a space at the end of each string. So put them at the beginning of the next line. It makes the space more obvious, so it's clearer what you have done. That's what I sometimes do. I've also done this in the past, which is slightly more ugly: multilineString = ( 'This is a string that spans', 'multiple lines.' ) print( ' '.join( multilineString ) ) It's also less efficient, as it does the concatenation at runtime instead of compile time. But for a small script, that's not likely to be a problem worth worrying about. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 08:11:43 -0700, Simon Forman wrote: [quoting Robert Dailey] I cannot completely doubt that there are logical women out there. I just haven't seen one yet. But that doesn't mean I'm a sexist. Oh my. And you were doing so well. You haven't seen a logical woman? Perhaps you're blind because your eyes were torn out by a raging marmoset? Guess what? Thinking (or just saying) that /does/ mean you're a sexist. (Even if it was just another friendly, harmless joke.) It was an incredibly insensitive thing for Robert to say, having just been slapped for a previous insensitive joke about women. But still, most people, male or female, *aren't* logical. I know I've never met somebody who is entirely logical, of either sex, and I'm pretty sure I've not met very many people who are even mostly logical. Vulcans we are not. Does this mean I'm equally sexist against men *and* women? (I'm not biased, I hate everyone equally! *wink*) Hell, here I am, at 2am, defending somebody I don't know, for saying something I don't approve of, against somebody who is saying something I agree with, out of some sort of misguided sense of fairness. Logic? Ha, what's logic got to do with it? -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
Robert Dailey rcdai...@gmail.com writes:
Hey guys. Being a C++ programmer, I like to keep variable definitions
close to the location in which they will be used. This improves
readability in many ways. However, when I have a multi-line string
definition at function level scope, things get tricky because of the
indents. In this case indents are serving two purposes: For syntax and
actual text output. The tabs for function scope should not be included
in the contents of the string. (...)
Personally I'm in the camp that something like this should be hoisted
out of the code path (whether to global scope, a dedicated message
module or configuration file is a design choice).
But if it's going to stay inline, one approach that can maintain some
of the attractive qualities of a triple quoted string is to make use
of the textwrap module:
import textwrap
def RunCommand( commandList ):
# ...
if returnCode:
failMsg = textwrap.dedent('''\
*
The following command returned exit code [{:#x}].
This represents failure of some form. Please review
the command output for more details on the issue.
{}
*
''')
which removes any common leading whitespace (must be identical in terms
of any tabs/spaces).
This is still additional run-time processing, and most likely less
efficient than the joining of individual strings, but it does permit a
clean triple-quoted string so IMO is easier to read/maintain in the
source - providing the code indentation level doesn't get in the way
of the desired line length of the string. You can also choose to
dedent the string a bit (say to the level of failMsg) if needed
without being forced all the way back to the left margin.
You can also combine textwrap.dedent with some of the other options if
where the strings are defined makes it nicer if they still have some
indentation (say in a global Python module). In that case, you'd most
likely just process them once when the module was imported, so any
inefficiency in textwrap.dedent is far less important.
-- David
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Aug 11, 3:08 pm, Robert Dailey rcdai...@gmail.com wrote:
Hey guys. Being a C++ programmer, I like to keep variable definitions
close to the location in which they will be used. This improves
readability in many ways. However, when I have a multi-line string
definition at function level scope, things get tricky because of the
indents. In this case indents are serving two purposes: For syntax and
actual text output. The tabs for function scope should not be included
in the contents of the string. Below is the code I am trying to
improve. Notice how it looks ugly/unreadable because of the way the
string contents are shifted all the way to the left edge of the
document. This breaks the flow of scope. Would you guys solve this
problem by moving failMsg into global scope? Perhaps through some
other type of syntax?
Help is appreciated!
def RunCommand( commandList ):
commandString =
print( 'Running Command:', )
cmd = subprocess.Popen( commandList )
returnCode = cmd.wait()
if returnCode:
failMsg = '''\
*
The following command returned exit code [{:#x}].
This represents failure of some form. Please review
the command output for more details on the issue.
{}
*
'''
commandString = ' '.join( commandList )
raise CommandFailure( failMsg.format( returnCode,
commandString ) )
And yes, I recognize there are syntax errors. Ignore those for now.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
Robert Dailey wrote:
On Aug 11, 3:08 pm, Robert Dailey rcdai...@gmail.com wrote:
Hey guys. Being a C++ programmer, I like to keep variable definitions
close to the location in which they will be used. This improves
readability in many ways. However, when I have a multi-line string
definition at function level scope, things get tricky because of the
indents. In this case indents are serving two purposes: For syntax and
actual text output. The tabs for function scope should not be included
in the contents of the string. Below is the code I am trying to
improve. Notice how it looks ugly/unreadable because of the way the
string contents are shifted all the way to the left edge of the
document. This breaks the flow of scope. Would you guys solve this
problem by moving failMsg into global scope? Perhaps through some
other type of syntax?
Help is appreciated!
def RunCommand( commandList ):
commandString =
print( 'Running Command:', )
cmd = subprocess.Popen( commandList )
returnCode = cmd.wait()
if returnCode:
failMsg = '''\
*
The following command returned exit code [{:#x}].
This represents failure of some form. Please review
the command output for more details on the issue.
{}
*
'''
commandString = ' '.join( commandList )
raise CommandFailure( failMsg.format( returnCode,
commandString ) )
And yes, I recognize there are syntax errors. Ignore those for now.
For starters take a look at http://tinyurl.com/o2o8r8 , just about every
combination of string concatenation going there. I assume that one of
these will let you leave failMsg where it belongs.
--
Kindest regards.
Mark Lawrence.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
Robert Dailey: This breaks the flow of scope. Would you guys solve this problem by moving failMsg into global scope? Perhaps through some other type of syntax? There are gals too here. This may help: http://docs.python.org/library/textwrap.html#textwrap.dedent Bye, bearophile -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
On Aug 11, 3:40 pm, Bearophile bearophileh...@lycos.com wrote: Robert Dailey: This breaks the flow of scope. Would you guys solve this problem by moving failMsg into global scope? Perhaps through some other type of syntax? There are gals too here. This may help:http://docs.python.org/library/textwrap.html#textwrap.dedent Bye, bearophile It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Need cleanup advice for multiline string
Robert Dailey wrote:
Hey guys. Being a C++ programmer, I like to keep variable definitions
close to the location in which they will be used. This improves
readability in many ways. However, when I have a multi-line string
definition at function level scope, things get tricky because of the
indents. In this case indents are serving two purposes: For syntax and
actual text output. The tabs for function scope should not be included
in the contents of the string. Below is the code I am trying to
improve. Notice how it looks ugly/unreadable because of the way the
string contents are shifted all the way to the left edge of the
document. This breaks the flow of scope. Would you guys solve this
problem by moving failMsg into global scope? Perhaps through some
other type of syntax?
Help is appreciated!
def RunCommand( commandList ):
commandString =
print( 'Running Command:', )
cmd = subprocess.Popen( commandList )
returnCode = cmd.wait()
if returnCode:
failMsg = '''\
*
The following command returned exit code [{:#x}].
This represents failure of some form. Please review
the command output for more details on the issue.
{}
*
'''
commandString = ' '.join( commandList )
raise CommandFailure( failMsg.format( returnCode,
commandString ) )
No, don't put it in global scope. Put it externally, so it can be
readily localized for international markets.
DaveA
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
