Re: Py-dea: Streamline string literals now!
On 12/29/2011 12:44 PM, Dan Sommers wrote: On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 22:54:16 +, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 11:36:17 -0800, Rick Johnson wrote: The point is people, we should be using string delimiters that are ANYTHING besides and '. Stop being a sheep and use your brain! ANYTHING, hey? I propose we use ئ and ร as the opening and closing string delimiters. Problem solved! Why stop at pre-determined, literal delimiters? That's way too easy on the parser, whether that parser is a computer or a person. __string_delimiter__ = Ω # magic syntax; no quotes needed x = ΩhelloΩ __string_delimiter__ = # # that first # isn't a comment marker x = # this isn't a comment; it's part of the string this is a multi-line string # __string_delimiter__ = '' # the delimiter is delimited by whitespace # now I can have comments, again, too x = ''hello'' # now x contains two double-quote characters I'm sure that the implementation is trivial, and it's so much easier to write strings that contain quotes (not to mention how easy it is to read those strings back later). right and you can generalize this idea even further __comment_marker__ = $ __string_delimiter__ = [#, %] $ also, even further __comment_marker_keyword = #__my_own_comment_marker__% __my_own_comment_marker__ = [, *] __assignment_symbol__ = - __attribute_delimiter__ - - for attributes * __call_delimiter__ = [!,@] l = [] l-append!5@ you're a genius!! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Py-dea: Streamline string literals now!
On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 10:19 AM, Lie Ryan lie.1...@gmail.com wrote: right and you can generalize this idea even further Don't stop generalizing. Everything should be custom. http://rosuav.com/1/?id=683 ChrisA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Py-dea: Streamline string literals now!
On Dec 28, 12:58 am, Steven D'Aprano steve +comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote: On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 21:34:19 -0800, Rick Johnson wrote: I am also thinking that ANY quote char is a bad choice for string literal delimiters. Why? Well because it is often necessary to embed single or double quotes into a string literal. We need to use a delimiter that is not a current delimiter elsewhere in Python, and also, is a very rare char. I believe Mr Ewing found that perfect char in his Multi-line uber raw string literals! (Just scroll down a bit at this link)... http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/greg.ewing/python/ideas.html Not surprisingly, you haven't thought this through. I'm sure Greg Ewing has, which is why he hasn't proposed *replacing* string delimiters with his multi-line format. That's why he proposed it as a *statement* and not string-builder syntax. Without an end-delimiter, how do you embed string literals in expressions? Did you even read what i wrote? And if you did, you missed the point! My point was... while Greg's idea is nice, it is not the answer. HOWEVER, he did find the perfect char, and that char is the pipe! -- | mlstr = ||| this is a multi line sting that is delimited by triple pipes. Or we could just 'single pipes' if we like, however, i think the triple pipe' is easier to see. Since the pipe char is so rare in Python source, it becomes the obvious choice. And, best of all, no more worries about embedded quotes. YAY! ||| slstr = |this is a single line string| The point is people, we should be using string delimiters that are ANYTHING besides and '. Stop being a sheep and use your brain! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Py-dea: Streamline string literals now!
On 12/28/2011 11:36 AM, Rick Johnson wrote: On Dec 28, 12:58 am, Steven D'Apranosteve +comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote: On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 21:34:19 -0800, Rick Johnson wrote: I am also thinking that ANY quote char is a bad choice for string literal delimiters. Why? Well because it is often necessary to embed single or double quotes into a string literal. We need to use a delimiter that is not a current delimiter elsewhere in Python, and also, is a very rare char. I believe Mr Ewing found that perfect char in his Multi-line uber raw string literals! (Just scroll down a bit at this link)... http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/greg.ewing/python/ideas.html Not surprisingly, you haven't thought this through. I'm sure Greg Ewing has, which is why he hasn't proposed *replacing* string delimiters with his multi-line format. That's why he proposed it as a *statement* and not string-builder syntax. Without an end-delimiter, how do you embed string literals in expressions? Did you even read what i wrote? And if you did, you missed the point! My point was... while Greg's idea is nice, it is not the answer. HOWEVER, he did find the perfect char, and that char is the pipe! -- | mlstr = ||| this is a multi line sting that is delimited by triple pipes. Or we could just 'single pipes' if we like, however, i think the triple pipe' is easier to see. Since the pipe char is so rare in Python source, it becomes the obvious choice. And, best of all, no more worries about embedded quotes. YAY! ||| slstr = |this is a single line string| The point is people, we should be using string delimiters that are ANYTHING besides and '. Stop being a sheep and use your brain! I disagree that quotes are a bad thing. Most programming languages use +, -, / and * for arithmentic operations (* is closest character on a keyboard to x that is not the letter ex). Why do they choose to do this? It's actually a lot more work for the language implementer(s) to do this rather than simply providing functions add(x,y), subtract(x,y), divide(x,y) and multiply(x,y). The answer is very simple - convention. We use these symbols in mathematics and so it's much more convenient to follow through the mathematical convention. The learning curve is much lower (and it's less typing). After all experienced programmers know this is what is going on under the hood in pretty much all programming languages. Compilers are just making it easy for us. While it may indeed make sense to use a different character for delimiting strings, in English we use to delimit spoken words in a narrative. Since strings most closely resemble spoken words from the point of view a programming language, using double quotes is a sensible choice since it eases learning. Convention is a very strong thing to argue against (not to mention huge code breakage as a result of such a change). Personally, I try to ensure I use consistency in the way I use the different quoting mechanisms, but that's just a personal choice. Sometimes that leads me to less pleasant looking strings, but I believe the consistency of style makes it easier to read. I think this proposal falls in the, let's make python case-insensitive kind of idea - it's never going to happen cause it offers very little benefit at huge cost. And I'm not going to contribute to this thread any further cause it's a pointless waste of my time to write it and others time to read it. -- Dominic Binks: dbi...@codeaurora.org Employee of Qualcomm Innovation Center, Inc. Qualcomm Innovation Center, Inc. is a member of Code Aurora Forum -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Py-dea: Streamline string literals now!
On 12/29/2011 06:36 AM, Rick Johnson wrote: mlstr = ||| this is a multi line sting that is delimited by triple pipes. Or we could just 'single pipes' if we like, however, i think the triple pipe' is easier to see. Since the pipe char is so rare in Python source, it becomes the obvious choice. And, best of all, no more worries about embedded quotes. YAY! ||| slstr = |this is a single line string| The point is people, we should be using string delimiters that are ANYTHING besides and '. Stop being a sheep and use your brain! This will incur the wrath of all linux/unix sysadmins all over the world. You are just replacing one problem with another; in your obliviousness, you had just missed the very obvious fact that once you replace quotes with pipes, quotes is extremely rare in Python (in fact you won't be seeing any quotes except inside string literals). -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Py-dea: Streamline string literals now!
On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 12:36 PM, Rick Johnson
rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote:
My point was... while Greg's idea is nice, it is not the answer.
HOWEVER, he did find the perfect char, and that char is the pipe! --
|
mlstr = |||
this is a
multi line sting that is
delimited by triple pipes. Or we
could just 'single pipes' if we like, however, i think
the triple pipe' is easier to see. Since the pipe char
is so rare in Python source, it becomes the obvious
choice. And, best of all, no more worries about
embedded quotes. YAY!
|||
slstr = |this is a single line string|
The point is people, we should be using string delimiters that are
ANYTHING besides and '. Stop being a sheep and use your brain!
So those who do shell scripting from Python might replace this:
subprocess.call(cat {0} | awk '/foo|bar/ {print $3;}' | sort | uniq
{1}.format(infile, outfile), shell=True)
with this:
subprocess.call(|cat {0} \| awk '/foo\|bar/ {print $3;}' \| sort \|
uniq {1}|.format(infile, outfile), shell=True)
or if we combine Rick's string escaping proposal:
subprocess.call(|cat {0} PIPE awk '/fooPIPEbar/ {print $3;}'
PIPE sort PIPE uniq GT{1}|.format(infile, outfile), shell=True)
Yeah, that's so much better. I especially like how nice and readable
the regex is now.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Py-dea: Streamline string literals now!
On 12/28/2011 04:34 PM, Rick Johnson wrote: On Dec 27, 9:49 pm, Rick Johnsonrantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote: The fact is...even with the multi-line issue solved, we still have two forms of literal delimiters that encompass two characters resulting in *four* possible legal combinations of the exact same string! I don't know about you guys, but i am not a big fan of Tim Towtdi. actually i was a bit hasty with that statment and underestimated the actual number of possiblities. 1) this is a string 2) 'this is a string' 3) rthis is a string 4) r'this is a string' 5) '''this is a string''' 6) this is a string 7) r'''this is a string''' 8) rthis is a string you missed unicode string and byte string, each of them available in both single and double quote flavor and single and triple quote flavor. Also, it's possible to mix them together urunicode raw string or brbyte raw string, they are also in single and double quote flavor and single and triple quote flavor. And of course, I can't believe you forget Guido's favourite version, g, available in musical and sirloin cloth flavor. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Py-dea: Streamline string literals now!
Lie, And of course, I can't believe you forget Guido's favourite version, g, available in musical and sirloin cloth flavor. LMAO! That was brilliant! :) Cheers! Malcolm -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Py-dea: Streamline string literals now!
Quotes are obnoxious in the nesting sense because everyone uses quotes for string delimiters. By the same token, quotes are wonderful because not only are they intuitive to programmers, but they are intuitive in general. Parenthesis are pretty much in the same boat... I *HATE* them nested, but they are so intuitive that replacing them is a non starter; Just write code that doesn't nest parenthesis. Nathan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Py-dea: Streamline string literals now!
On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 8:24 AM, Nathan Rice nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com wrote: Quotes are obnoxious in the nesting sense because everyone uses quotes for string delimiters. By the same token, quotes are wonderful because not only are they intuitive to programmers, but they are intuitive in general. Parenthesis are pretty much in the same boat... I *HATE* them nested, but they are so intuitive that replacing them is a non starter; Just write code that doesn't nest parenthesis. Parentheses have different starting and ending delimiters and must be 'properly nested' (ie there must be exactly-matching inner parens inside any given set of outer parens (note that English has similar rules - you can't mis-nest parentheses (at any depth) in either language)). You can't guarantee the same about quoted strings - suppose the starting delimiter were ' and the ending (or vice versa), it still wouldn't deal with the issue of coming across an apostrophe inside a quoted string. In actual fact, the real problem is that quoted strings need to be able to contain _anything_. The only true solution to that is length-provided strings: s = 4spam q = 14Hello, world!\n This works beautifully in interchange formats, but rather poorly in source code (or, for that matter, anything editable). ChrisA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Py-dea: Streamline string literals now!
On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 4:42 PM, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 8:24 AM, Nathan Rice nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com wrote: Quotes are obnoxious in the nesting sense because everyone uses quotes for string delimiters. By the same token, quotes are wonderful because not only are they intuitive to programmers, but they are intuitive in general. Parenthesis are pretty much in the same boat... I *HATE* them nested, but they are so intuitive that replacing them is a non starter; Just write code that doesn't nest parenthesis. Parentheses have different starting and ending delimiters and must be 'properly nested' (ie there must be exactly-matching inner parens inside any given set of outer parens (note that English has similar rules - you can't mis-nest parentheses (at any depth) in either language)). You can't guarantee the same about quoted strings - suppose the starting delimiter were ' and the ending (or vice versa), it still wouldn't deal with the issue of coming across an apostrophe inside a quoted string. I think you read more into my statement than was intended. Parens are bad like nested quotes are bad in the sense that they made statements difficult to read and confusing. While it is entirely possible to parse nested strings automatically in a probabilistic manner with nearly flawless accuracy by examining everything between the start and end of the line, generally I feel that people are uncomfortable with probabilistic techniques in the realm of programming :) Best just to make the user be explicit. Nathan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Py-dea: Streamline string literals now!
On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 11:36:17 -0800, Rick Johnson wrote: The point is people, we should be using string delimiters that are ANYTHING besides and '. Stop being a sheep and use your brain! ANYTHING, hey? I propose we use ئ and ร as the opening and closing string delimiters. Problem solved! Thank you Rick for yet another brilliant, well-thought-out idea. I look forward to seeing your fork of Python with this change. How is it going? I hope you aren't going to disappoint the legions of your fans who are relying on you to save the Python community from neglect. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Py-dea: Streamline string literals now!
On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote: Thank you Rick for yet another brilliant, well-thought-out idea. I look forward to seeing your fork of Python with this change. How is it going? I hope you aren't going to disappoint the legions of your fans who are relying on you to save the Python community from neglect. But Steven, the shocking state of IDLE has utterly destroyed any reputation Python may have had. There's not going to be any community left to neglect, soon! That said, though, the new string delimiters will solve many problems. We should adopt a strict policy: all syntactic elements MUST be comprised of non-ASCII characters, thus allowing all ASCII characters to represent themselves literally. I'm not sure what representing themselves literally would mean, since strings already have perfect delimiters, but it seems like a good policy. By the way, doubling the delimiter works for nesting strings. ئئ and รร look just fine. ChrisA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Py-dea: Streamline string literals now!
On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 22:54:16 +, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 11:36:17 -0800, Rick Johnson wrote: The point is people, we should be using string delimiters that are ANYTHING besides and '. Stop being a sheep and use your brain! ANYTHING, hey? I propose we use ئ and ร as the opening and closing string delimiters. Problem solved! Why stop at pre-determined, literal delimiters? That's way too easy on the parser, whether that parser is a computer or a person. __string_delimiter__ = Ω # magic syntax; no quotes needed x = ΩhelloΩ __string_delimiter__ = # # that first # isn't a comment marker x = # this isn't a comment; it's part of the string this is a multi-line string # __string_delimiter__ = '' # the delimiter is delimited by whitespace # now I can have comments, again, too x = ''hello'' # now x contains two double-quote characters I'm sure that the implementation is trivial, and it's so much easier to write strings that contain quotes (not to mention how easy it is to read those strings back later). -- Dan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Py-dea: Streamline string literals now!
On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote: My proposal is to introduce a single delimiter for string literals. A new string literal that is just as good at spanning single lines as it is spanning multiple lines. A new literal that uses widely known markup tag syntax instead of cryptic and noisy escape sequences. And finally, a *literal* that is worthy of the 21st century. So all you're doing is introducing a different form of escaping. You can already achieve this with regular expressions in several engines - declare a different delimiter and/or escape character - in order to dodge the issue of multiple escapes. Python already has raw strings for the same reason (although the rules governing raw strings are oddly complex in edge cases). Your proposal sounds like a good idea for a specific-situation config file, but a very bad idea for Python. If you want elaboration on that, ask me for my arguments on CSV vs /etc/passwd. Or search the web for the same topic, I'm sure many others have made the same points. ChrisA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Py-dea: Streamline string literals now!
On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 19:49:12 -0800, Rick Johnson wrote: I believe that with the ubiquitous-ness of syntax highlight, string literals only need one delimiter. In the old days (before syntax highlight was invented) i could understand how a programmer might miss a single (or even a triple!) closing delimiter; but those days died with the king. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_monarchs Thank you Rick for another non-solution to a non-problem. How is that fork of Python going? You promised us you would revitalise the community with a new fork of Python that throws out all the accumulated cruft of the language. I'm sure that the silent majority who agree with you are hanging out for your first release. I know I am. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Py-dea: Streamline string literals now!
On Dec 27, 10:17 pm, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote: My proposal is to introduce a single delimiter for string literals. A new string literal that is just as good at spanning single lines as it is spanning multiple lines. A new literal that uses widely known markup tag syntax instead of cryptic and noisy escape sequences. And finally, a *literal* that is worthy of the 21st century. So all you're doing is introducing a different form of escaping. Well that is but one of the proposals. The others include reducing four combinations of string literals into one, and by default, spanning multiple lines with one syntax. You can already achieve this with regular expressions in several engines - declare a different delimiter and/or escape character - in order to dodge the issue of multiple escapes. I am specifically referring to the Python language and how the interpreter interprets string literals. Wait, you do share the same definition of string literal as i do, i hope? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_literal Python already has raw strings for the same reason (although the rules governing raw strings are oddly complex in edge cases). Raw strings would be history with my proposal. No more need for raw strings. This is the string literal to rule all string literals! Your proposal sounds like a good idea for a specific-situation config file, but a very bad idea for Python. Can you give specific reasons why? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Py-dea: Streamline string literals now!
On Dec 27, 9:49 pm, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote: The fact is...even with the multi-line issue solved, we still have two forms of literal delimiters that encompass two characters resulting in *four* possible legal combinations of the exact same string! I don't know about you guys, but i am not a big fan of Tim Towtdi. actually i was a bit hasty with that statment and underestimated the actual number of possiblities. 1) this is a string 2) 'this is a string' 3) rthis is a string 4) r'this is a string' 5) '''this is a string''' 6) this is a string 7) r'''this is a string''' 8) rthis is a string A) this is difficult to \eyeball parse\ B) this is overkill C) that's just plain \nuts\! Now. If anyone can look at that mess and not admit it is a disaster, well then... I am also thinking that ANY quote char is a bad choice for string literal delimiters. Why? Well because it is often necessary to embed single or double quotes into a string literal. We need to use a delimiter that is not a current delimiter elsewhere in Python, and also, is a very rare char. I believe Mr Ewing found that perfect char in his Multi-line uber raw string literals! (Just scroll down a bit at this link)... http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/greg.ewing/python/ideas.html ...however, requiring a programmer to start EVERY line with a marker does not seem like fun to me. And just think what a nightmare it will be to modify copy/pasted data with line markers! Although it does solve the indention issue with doc-strings! I think just for foreign language compatibility reasons we should stick with one of either or ' (or maybe both), but allowing [r] and [r]''' is just WAY too much! We need to trim this fat. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Py-dea: Streamline string literals now!
On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 21:34:19 -0800, Rick Johnson wrote: Now. If anyone can look at that mess and not admit it is a disaster, well then... It isn't a disaster. A disaster is when people die, lose their houses, get tossed out into the street to starve, radioactive contamination everywhere, floods, fire, the first born of every family being struck down suddenly, that sort of thing. Not having eight ways to write string literals. That's merely a convenience. I am also thinking that ANY quote char is a bad choice for string literal delimiters. Why? Well because it is often necessary to embed single or double quotes into a string literal. We need to use a delimiter that is not a current delimiter elsewhere in Python, and also, is a very rare char. I believe Mr Ewing found that perfect char in his Multi-line uber raw string literals! (Just scroll down a bit at this link)... http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/greg.ewing/python/ideas.html Not surprisingly, you haven't thought this through. I'm sure Greg Ewing has, which is why he hasn't proposed *replacing* string delimiters with his multi-line format. That's why he proposed it as a *statement* and not string-builder syntax. Without an end-delimiter, how do you embed string literals in expressions? -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Py-dea: Streamline string literals now!
On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote: I am also thinking that ANY quote char is a bad choice for string literal delimiters. Why? Well because it is often necessary to embed single or double quotes into a string literal. Postgres allows dollar-delimited strings, which get around this issue somewhat. http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.1/static/sql-syntax-lexical.html#SQL-SYNTAX-DOLLAR-QUOTING But for most strings, it simply makes sense to use a quote character. Most strings don't need both ' and in them. You cannot pick one character to be your ultimate delimiter, because there will always be occasion to embed it. (If nothing else, what happens when you emit code?) You want the delimiter to be easily typed and recognized, and that guarantees that it'll be something that's going to want to be emitted. It's necessary to have multiple options, or escaping. ChrisA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
