Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], fumanchu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 16, 5:09 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) wrote: If you did not like the programming this year (aside from the sponsor talks) and you did not participate in organizing PyCon or in delivering presentations, it is YOUR FAULT. PERIOD. EXCLAMATION POINT! This would be true, except that the two talks I proposed last year were essentially denied because they were too advanced, so I didn't even bother this year. Perhaps I should have, but the PERIOD needs to at least be replaced by a COMMA as long as the talk-acceptance committee continues to reject more advanced talk topics in favor of HOWTOs and Introduction To Package X. Feel free to join the Program Committee! Seriously, this is exactly the kind of difficult problem I was talking about when I said it is YOUR FAULT. Speaking as someone who has been on the program committee for most of the last few PyCons, it is extremely difficult to balance all the conflicting expectations that attendees have (particularly given that we have to guess, for the most part -- consider that a thousand people compared to the six hundred at PyCon 2007 means that much of the feedback from 2007 isn't particularly relevant). On top of that, we have to pick and choose from whatever proposals are offered; with very limited exceptions, we can't just solicit talks on topics, we don't have enough volunteer labor. -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/ It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code. --Bill Harlan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)
On Mar 19, 6:07 am, Jeff Schwab [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As I have never attended PyCon, the amount of entertainment already gleaned from this thread has wildly exceeded my expectations. :) Are slides or notes from any of the presentations available online? What was the topic of the well-received presentation from Google? I'm mostly intrigued by the tantalising hints being dropped regarding Steve Holden's Teach Me Twisted talk ;) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)
On Mar 17, 6:25 pm, dundeemt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree - the balance wasn't as good. We can all agree that HowTos and Intros are a necessary part of the conference talks track, but as Robert pointed out some talks should be of a more advanced nature. I enjoy those that stretch my brain. Alex M, Pyke and NetworkIO and Mark Hammond's keynote were among my favorite talks. Raymond Hettinger's talk on collections was not only one of my favorites, it was apparently lots of other people's too--the room was PACKED. I can't recall seeing any other talk that was even close to seating capacity. Robert Brewer [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)
On Mar 18, 1:41 pm, fumanchu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 17, 6:25 pm, dundeemt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree - the balance wasn't as good. We can all agree that HowTos and Intros are a necessary part of the conference talks track, but as Robert pointed out some talks should be of a more advanced nature. I enjoy those that stretch my brain. Alex M, Pyke and NetworkIO and Mark Hammond's keynote were among my favorite talks. Raymond Hettinger's talk on collections was not only one of my favorites, it was apparently lots of other people's too--the room was PACKED. I can't recall seeing any other talk that was even close to seating capacity. Robert Brewer [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Using PyGame and PySight to Create an Interactive Halloween Activity (#9) session with Mr. John Harrison was also quite full as was the one for Pyglet. I think the nose presentation had people sitting on the floor. Geeks like games! I know I do! Mike -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)
Mike Driscoll wrote: On Mar 18, 1:41 pm, fumanchu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 17, 6:25 pm, dundeemt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree - the balance wasn't as good. We can all agree that HowTos and Intros are a necessary part of the conference talks track, but as Robert pointed out some talks should be of a more advanced nature. I enjoy those that stretch my brain. Alex M, Pyke and NetworkIO and Mark Hammond's keynote were among my favorite talks. Raymond Hettinger's talk on collections was not only one of my favorites, it was apparently lots of other people's too--the room was PACKED. I can't recall seeing any other talk that was even close to seating capacity. Robert Brewer [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Using PyGame and PySight to Create an Interactive Halloween Activity (#9) session with Mr. John Harrison was also quite full as was the one for Pyglet. I think the nose presentation had people sitting on the floor. Geeks like games! I know I do! Me too. As I have never attended PyCon, the amount of entertainment already gleaned from this thread has wildly exceeded my expectations. :) Are slides or notes from any of the presentations available online? What was the topic of the well-received presentation from Google? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)
On 17 Mar, 02:39, BJörn Lindqvist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I haven't been to EuroPython even when it has been fairly nearby because the entrance fee was to high. But how do you help change something like that? You could join in and make your case. There was a more protracted discussion than usual last year about fees because some people pointed out the discrepancy between salary and price levels in different parts of Europe and the need to make the conference more affordable: what may be relatively inexpensive for some might be relatively expensive for others, and the organisers felt that it would be foolish to exclude the latter group, particularly when they may be more likely to travel to the conference in its present location. It's hard to say whether the conference is reaching everyone it should, given the composition of attendees: http://www.europython.org/community/Planning/Projections But without anyone to pursue a particular cause, and with decisions needing to be made within certain timeframes (which is often a struggle, anyway), things often get preserved as they are rather than being improved. I live in a European country which is either number one or two on the price scale (depending on whether you include alcohol prices or not), and I can't say what the right fee level should be (other than possibly lower than it is) - it's up to others to weigh in and give their opinion, I think. Paul -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)
Paul Boddie napisał(a): I haven't been to EuroPython even when it has been fairly nearby because the entrance fee was to high. But how do you help change something like that? You could join in and make your case. There was a more protracted discussion than usual last year about fees because some people pointed out the discrepancy between salary and price levels in different parts of Europe and the need to make the conference more affordable: what may be relatively inexpensive for some might be relatively expensive for others, and the organisers felt that it would be foolish to exclude the latter group, particularly when they may be more likely to travel to the conference in its present location. It's hard to say whether the conference is reaching everyone it should, given the composition of attendees: http://www.europython.org/community/Planning/Projections I did not event think on attending EuroPython in Switzerland due to high cost of 3-day accomodation there (relatively to my wage these times). Lithuania seems to be not much more expensive than my home country, so I'll travel to Vilnius this year too. I thionk it was valid for others in Poland too, judging from the figures you mention. But without anyone to pursue a particular cause, and with decisions needing to be made within certain timeframes (which is often a struggle, anyway), things often get preserved as they are rather than being improved. I live in a European country which is either number one or two on the price scale (depending on whether you include alcohol prices or not), and I can't say what the right fee level should be (other than possibly lower than it is) - it's up to others to weigh in and give their opinion, I think. EUR 100 does not seem too high as early bird registration fee, so the most intimidating costs (for me at least) is accomodation and travel. I mean, lowering the fee would be nice, but not essential to me. -- Jarek Zgoda Skype: jzgoda | GTalk: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | voice: +48228430101 We read Knuth so you don't have to. (Tim Peters) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)
On Mar 16, 5:09 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) wrote: fumanchu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is my third PyCon, and I've found a reasonably-sized cadre of people who come for the hallway conversations plus a Bof or two, having given up on hearing anything new, useful, or inspiring in the talks. There are several people I know who would like to see a more advanced academic track. Finally, trying to satisfy a thousand people is impossible. Well understood. Sorry if I implied it was an easy job. I know it isn't. If you did not like the programming this year (aside from the sponsor talks) and you did not participate in organizing PyCon or in delivering presentations, it is YOUR FAULT. PERIOD. EXCLAMATION POINT! This would be true, except that the two talks I proposed last year were essentially denied because they were too advanced, so I didn't even bother this year. Perhaps I should have, but the PERIOD needs to at least be replaced by a COMMA as long as the talk-acceptance committee continues to reject more advanced talk topics in favor of HOWTOs and Introduction To Package X. Robert Brewer [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)
On Mar 17, 10:35 am, fumanchu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 16, 5:09 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) wrote: fumanchu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is my third PyCon, and I've found a reasonably-sized cadre of people who come for the hallway conversations plus a Bof or two, having given up on hearing anything new, useful, or inspiring in the talks. There are several people I know who would like to see a more advanced academic track. Finally, trying to satisfy a thousand people is impossible. Well understood. Sorry if I implied it was an easy job. I know it isn't. If you did not like the programming this year (aside from the sponsor talks) and you did not participate in organizing PyCon or in delivering presentations, it is YOUR FAULT. PERIOD. EXCLAMATION POINT! This would be true, except that the two talks I proposed last year were essentially denied because they were too advanced, so I didn't even bother this year. Perhaps I should have, but the PERIOD needs to at least be replaced by a COMMA as long as the talk-acceptance committee continues to reject more advanced talk topics in favor of HOWTOs and Introduction To Package X. I agree - the balance wasn't as good. We can all agree that HowTos and Intros are a necessary part of the conference talks track, but as Robert pointed out some talks should be of a more advanced nature. I enjoy those that stretch my brain. Alex M, Pyke and NetworkIO and Mark Hammond's keynote were among my favorite talks. -jeff hinrichs -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)
On 17 Mar, 01:09, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) wrote: PyCon is what YOU make of it. If you want to change PyCon, propose a presentation or join the conference committee (concom) -- the latter only requires signing up for the pycon-organizers mailing list. This doesn't mean that we are uninterested in feedback. We love feedback. But there are stark limits to what we can do unless people get involved and push their pet projects. The same rules apply for most of the other Python conferences, too. Apologies to Aahz for hijacking his rant, but for anyone interested in enhancing the EuroPython 2008 experience, the advice is fairly similar: join the volunteers organising the conference and make what you want to see actually happen. For EuroPython, start here: http://www.europython.org/community/Volunteers If EuroPython is too remote or not to your taste, help your local conference or the Python conference which caters to your specific interests: http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonConferences http://www.pycon.org/ (a list of the big generic Python conferences) Constructive feedback is always welcome, but it's better to change things before your favourite conference so that it remains your favourite conference. Paul -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) writes: I would like to encourage anyone who was at PyCon but has not provided formal feedback to use the following URLs: For those who don't like to follow opaque munged URLs from services that give no indication where you'll end up, here are the actual URLs you'll arrive at: For the conference: http://tinyurl.com/2ara8u PyCon 2008: Conference Feedback URL:http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=BvZ0fzE5FMKgiqbRk2g6OA_3d_3d For the tutorials: http://tinyurl.com/2ew2pc PyCon 2008: Tutorial Evaluation URL:http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=_2fBZVTQe3Ov49vIGxgs_2fh9g_3d_3d Thanks for posting these links, Aahz. -- \ Imagine a world without hypothetical situations. —anonymous | `\ | _o__) | Ben Finney -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ben Finney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) writes: I would like to encourage anyone who was at PyCon but has not provided formal feedback to use the following URLs: For those who don't like to follow opaque munged URLs from services that give no indication where you'll end up, here are the actual URLs you'll arrive at: For the conference: http://tinyurl.com/2ara8u PyCon 2008: Conference Feedback URL:http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=BvZ0fzE5FMKgiqbRk2g6OA_3d_3d For the tutorials: http://tinyurl.com/2ew2pc PyCon 2008: Tutorial Evaluation URL:http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=_2fBZVTQe3Ov49vIGxgs_2fh9g_3d_3d Sorry, I agree with you -- those URLs were not (and should have been) on pycon.org, and I just pasted what I got from someone else. Not enough spoons -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/ It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code. --Bill Harlan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)
On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 12:32 AM, Paul Boddie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 17 Mar, 01:09, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) wrote: PyCon is what YOU make of it. If you want to change PyCon, propose a presentation or join the conference committee (concom) -- the latter only requires signing up for the pycon-organizers mailing list. This doesn't mean that we are uninterested in feedback. We love feedback. But there are stark limits to what we can do unless people get involved and push their pet projects. The same rules apply for most of the other Python conferences, too. Apologies to Aahz for hijacking his rant, but for anyone interested in enhancing the EuroPython 2008 experience, the advice is fairly similar: join the volunteers organising the conference and make what you want to see actually happen. For EuroPython, start here: http://www.europython.org/community/Volunteers I haven't been to EuroPython even when it has been fairly nearby because the entrance fee was to high. But how do you help change something like that? -- mvh Björn -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)
On Mar 16, 8:09 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) wrote: If you did not like the programming this year (aside from the sponsor talks) and you did not participate in organizing PyCon or in delivering presentations, it is YOUR FAULT. PERIOD. EXCLAMATION POINT! I find this insulting, inexcusable, and utter nonsense. If putting the blame for a failed experiment on the backs of the good folks who paid good money for travel, lodging, and registration is also an experiment, you can hereby consider it also failed. The bottom line is that the people who are providing feedback in this forum are doing so *voluntarily*, and for the good of future PyCon events. They were sold a bill of goods, it was ill-comunicated, and they have taken their time to express that this is not a good idea moving forward. If it weren't for these people giving feedback, you would not have a complete experiment, because you would never have been able to prove or disprove your hypothesis. In fact, the people in this forum are just as important to the process as those who devised the experiment. As an experiment, it would seem that having an event organizer, who is presumably interested in the future success of the event, talking down to the people who would also like to see a better event in the future (and think they can make that happen - otherwise why bother giving feedback?), is doomed to failure. Of course, I'm only looking at how the experiment is being carried out. I claim ignorance as to the hypothesis. The rest of the points in your rant are all pretty commonly known by now, to most. At the end of the day, the buck has to stop somewhere, and that somewhere has to be with the organization that were charged with motivating a volunteer force, and the organization who set the expectations of the attendees. If you think that PyCon would've been better had there been more volunteers, then you should feed that back to the folks in charge of attracting and motivating said force. If you think it was simply a mis-labeling of the different classes of talks, feed that back to the folks who are in charge of such things. The point is that there are endless things that can be done which are more useful and productive than pointing fingers back at the people who support the conference by being attendees. They help build the conference too. A conference answers to its attendees, and that should be an expectation of anyone concerned with conference organization. Period. Exclamation point. Brian K. Jones Editor in Chief Python Magazine -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)
On Mar 16, 10:49 pm, Brian Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 16, 8:09 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) wrote: If you did not like the programming this year (aside from the sponsor talks) and you did not participate in organizing PyCon or in delivering presentations, it is YOUR FAULT. PERIOD. EXCLAMATION POINT! I find this insulting, inexcusable, and utter nonsense. If putting the blame for a failed experiment on the backs of the good folks who paid good money for travel, lodging, and registration is also an experiment, you can hereby consider it also failed. He said aside from the sponsor talks, chief. You need one of these: http://tinyurl.com/26owvg Carl Banks -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
