subject:"Re\: Python Interview Questions"

In article 50a9e5cf$0$21863$c3e8da3$76491...@news.astraweb.com,
 Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:

 I see. It wasn't clear from your earlier description that the items had 
 been post-processed from collections of raw log lines to fixed records.

Well, I did provide the code that does this.
 
 But it doesn't actually change my analysis any. See below.
 
 By the way, based on the sample data you show, your script is possibly 
 broken. You don't record either the line number that raises, or the 
 exception raised, so your script doesn't differentiate between different 
 errors that happen to occur with similar stack traces. 

You really might want to read the code I provided.  Here's the reference 
again:

https://bitbucket.org/roysmith/python-tools/src/4f8118d175ed/logs/traceba
ck_helper.py

The header referred to does indeed contain the exception raised.  And 
the line numbers are included.  Here's a typical output stanza:

2012-11-19T00:00:15+00:00 web5 ËË2012-11-19 00:00:15,831 [2712]: 
songza-api IGPhwNU2SJ691cx8 4C0ABFA9-50A974E7-384995 W6D-HSO 
173.145.137.54 songza.django.middleware ERROR process_exception() Path = 
u'/api/1/station/1459775/next', Exception = 
ValueError(uSequentialSongPicker: Station 1459775: u'Old School 
105.3': no song ids for mp3,)
/home/songza/env/python/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/django/core/han
dlers/base.py:111:get_response()
/home/songza/deploy/current/pyza/djapi/decorators.py:11:_wrapped_view_fun
c()
/home/songza/env/python/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/django/views/de
corators/http.py:45:inner()
/home/songza/deploy/current/pyza/djapi/views.py:1659:station_next()
/home/songza/deploy/current/pyza/models/station.py:660:next_song()
/home/songza/deploy/current/pyza/lib/song_picker.py:327:pick()

 I say possibly broken because I don't know what your requirements are.

Our requirements are to scan the logs of a production site and filter 
down the gobs and gobs of output (we produced 70 GB of log files 
yesterday) into something small enough that a human can see what the 
most common failures were.  The tool I wrote does that.

The rest of this conversation is just silly.  It's turning into getting 
hit on the head lessons.
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Re: Python Interview Questions

OK, I've just read back over the whole thread.  I'm really struggling to 
understand what point you're trying to make.  I started out by saying:

 Use a list when you need an ordered collection which is mutable (i.e. 
 can be altered after being created).  Use a tuple when you need an 
 immutable list (such as for a dictionary key).

To which you obviously objected.  So now you write:

 I think a tuple is an immutable sequence of items, and a list is a 
 mutable sequence of items.

So how is that different from what I said?  Is this whole argument 
boiling down to your use of immutable sequence vs. my use of 
immutable list?
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-11-19 Thread Ian Kelly

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 7:30 AM, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote:
 In article 50a9e5cf$0$21863$c3e8da3$76491...@news.astraweb.com,
  Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:

 By the way, based on the sample data you show, your script is possibly
 broken. You don't record either the line number that raises, or the
 exception raised, so your script doesn't differentiate between different
 errors that happen to occur with similar stack traces.

 You really might want to read the code I provided.  Here's the reference
 again:

 https://bitbucket.org/roysmith/python-tools/src/4f8118d175ed/logs/traceba
 ck_helper.py

 The header referred to does indeed contain the exception raised.  And
 the line numbers are included.  Here's a typical output stanza:

Yes, but the dict is still keyed on the traceback alone, and only the
first header for a particular traceback is stored.  If two different
exceptions occur at the same line of code and sharing the same
traceback, the second exception would be counted as a second
occurrence of the first, effectively squashing any reporting of the
second exception.
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-11-19 Thread Terry Reedy


On 11/19/2012 9:30 AM, Roy Smith wrote:


Our requirements are to scan the logs of a production site and filter
down the gobs and gobs of output (we produced 70 GB of log files
yesterday) into something small enough that a human can see what the
most common failures were.  The tool I wrote does that.

The rest of this conversation is just silly.  It's turning into getting
hit on the head lessons.


I agree. In early Python, tuples were more different from lists than 
they are today. They did not have any (public) methods. Today, they have 
.index and .count methods, which make little sense from the 'tuple is a 
record' viewpoint. The addition of those methods redefined tuples as 
read-only (and therefore hashable) sequences.


From the collections.abc doc
'''
Sequence | Sized, Iterable, Container |
 __getitem__ __contains__, __iter__, __reversed__, index, and count
...
class collections.abc.Sequence
class collections.abc.MutableSequence
ABCs for read-only and mutable sequences.
'''
 from collections.abc import Sequence
 issubclass(tuple, Sequence)
True

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Terry Jan Reedy

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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-11-19 Thread Steven D'Aprano

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 09:30:54 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

 In article 50a9e5cf$0$21863$c3e8da3$76491...@news.astraweb.com,
  Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
 
 I see. It wasn't clear from your earlier description that the items had
 been post-processed from collections of raw log lines to fixed records.
 
 Well, I did provide the code that does this.

You did? When? [goes back and looks]

Oh, so you did. Oops.

By the way, your news client seems to be mangling long URLs, by splitting 
them when they exceed the maximum line length. I didn't follow the link 
you gave because it was mangled, and then forgot it even existed. Sorry 
about that.


[...]
 You really might want to read the code I provided.  Here's the reference
 again:
 
 https://bitbucket.org/roysmith/python-tools/src/4f8118d175ed/logs/
traceba
 ck_helper.py

And mangled again :)


 The header referred to does indeed contain the exception raised.  And
 the line numbers are included.  Here's a typical output stanza:
[snip]

Ian Kelly has picked up on what I'm trying to say. You might collect the 
traceback in the header, but it doesn't get used in the key, and each 
time you find a repeated stack trace, you toss away whatever header you 
just saw and keep the header you saw the first time.

[quote]
header, stack = traceback_helper.extract_stack(lines)
signature = tuple(stack)
if signature in crashes:
count, header = crashes[signature]
crashes[signature] = (count + 1, header)
else:
crashes[signature] = (1, header)
[end quote]


In general, it is an unsafe assumption that the actual exception raised 
will be the same just because the stack trace is the same. So as I said, 
if you have two *distinct* failures occurring in the same function (not 
even necessarily on the same line), your code appears to treat them as 
the same error. That seems odd to me, but if you have a good reason for 
doing it that way, so be it.



-- 
Steven
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-11-19 Thread Steven D'Aprano

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 09:59:19 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

 OK, I've just read back over the whole thread.  I'm really struggling to
 understand what point you're trying to make.  I started out by saying:
 
 Use a list when you need an ordered collection which is mutable (i.e.
 can be altered after being created).  Use a tuple when you need an
 immutable list (such as for a dictionary key).
 
 To which you obviously objected.  So now you write:
 
 I think a tuple is an immutable sequence of items, and a list is a
 mutable sequence of items.
 
 So how is that different from what I said?  Is this whole argument
 boiling down to your use of immutable sequence vs. my use of
 immutable list?

Sheesh, of course not. Give me some credit.

I gave some examples of when somebody might use lists, tuples, sets and 
dicts. Apparently I forgot a couple, and you responded with a sarcastic 
comment about the One True Church Of Pythonic Orthodoxy And Theoretical 
Correctness and gave a couple of additional examples.

Although I didn't come out and *explicitly* say I agree to your 
examples, I actually did, with one proviso: your example of using an 
immutable list as dict key. So I asked a question about that *specific* 
use-case:

[quote]
Under what sort of circumstances would somebody want to take a mutable
list of data, say a list of email addresses, freeze it into a known state,
and use that frozen state as a key in a dict? What would be the point?
Even if there was some meaningful reason to look up this list of 12000
email addresses as a single key, it is going to get out of sync with the
actual mutable list.
[end quote]

Your reply was to give your stack trace script as an example. That's a 
fine example as a use-case for a temporary list, and I've done similar 
things dozens, hundreds of times myself. As I said:

[quote]
Sure, I have built a collection of items as a list, because lists are
mutable, then frozen it into a tuple, and *thrown the list away*, then
used the tuple as a key. But that's not the same thing, the intent is
different. In my case, the data was never intended to be a list, it was
always intended to be a fixed record-like collection, the use of list was
as a temporary data structure used for construction. A bit like the idiom
of ''.join(some_list).
[end quote]

To me, this sounds *exactly* like your use-case: your data, stack traces, 
represent a little chunk of immutable data that you build up a line at a 
time using a temporary list first, just like I wrote. And I said so. 
There's no sign in either your code or your description that the stack 
traces get treated as mutable objects in any way once you have finished 
building them a line at a time. So your real world, practical, in the 
trenches example matches my experience: you build a *fixed data record* 
using a *temporary list*, throw the list away, and then never mutate that 
data record again.

So why are we disagreeing? Like many such discussions on the Internet, 
this one has rambled a bit, and I've misunderstood some of your code 
(sorry), and you seem to have misunderstood the question I am asking. 
Maybe my explanation was not clear enough, in which case, sorry again.

I'm asking about the case where one might want the key to remain mutable 
even after it is used as a key, but can't because Python won't let you. 
There's no sign that your stack trace example is such an example.

As I earlier said:

[quote]
But I can't think of any meaningful, non-contrived example where I might
want an actual mutable list of values as a dict key.
[end quote]


and I still can't. 



-- 
Steven
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RE: Python Interview Questions

2012-11-19 Thread Prasad, Ramit

Roy Smith wrote:
 
 OK, I've just read back over the whole thread.  I'm really struggling to
 understand what point you're trying to make.  I started out by saying:
 
  Use a list when you need an ordered collection which is mutable (i.e.
  can be altered after being created).  Use a tuple when you need an
  immutable list (such as for a dictionary key).
 
 To which you obviously objected.  So now you write:
 
  I think a tuple is an immutable sequence of items, and a list is a
  mutable sequence of items.
 
 So how is that different from what I said?  Is this whole argument
 boiling down to your use of immutable sequence vs. my use of
 immutable list?


'''
Roy:
 Use a list when you need an ordered collection which is mutable (i.e.
 can be altered after being created).  Use a tuple when you need an
 immutable list (such as for a dictionary key).
Steven:
I keep hearing about this last one, but I wonder... who *actually* does 
this? I've created many, many lists over the years -- lists of names, 
lists of phone numbers, lists of directory search paths, all sorts of 
things. I've never needed to use one as a dictionary key.
'''

To me this is more of a question than an argument. Now moving
on to your specific example.

'''
def extract_stack(lines):
in traceback_helper module 
header = lines[0]
stack = []
for line in lines:
m = frame_pattern.match(line)
if not m:
continue
frame = (m.group('path'), m.group('function'))
stack.append(frame)
# [Convert to tuple and return after finished building stack.]
return (header, stack)
[...]
def main(args):
crashes = {}
[...]
for line in open(log_file):
if does_not_look_like_a_stack_dump(line):
 continue
lines = traceback_helper.unfold(line)
header, stack = traceback_helper.extract_stack(lines)
signature = tuple(stack)
if signature in crashes:
count, header = crashes[signature]
crashes[signature] = (count + 1, header)
else:

crashes[signature] = (1, header)
'''

Seems to me that Steven is suggesting that stack (after being built)
should converted to a tuple before being returned, because a stack 
for any unique exception should be unique and immutable. You do this
anyway; you just do it before putting it into a dictionary rather
than before returning it.

Same net effect (as long as you do not modify `stack` later), so no 
real argument.


~Ramit


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Re: Python Interview Questions

In article 50aac3d8$0$29983$c3e8da3$54964...@news.astraweb.com,
 Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:

 By the way, your news client seems to be mangling long URLs, by splitting 
 them when they exceed the maximum line length.

Hmmm.  So it did.  My bad.
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Re: Python Interview Questions

In article 50aac66c$0$29983$c3e8da3$54964...@news.astraweb.com,
 Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:

 I'm asking about the case where one might want the key to remain mutable 
 even after it is used as a key, but can't because Python won't let you.

Ah.  Now I see what you're getting at.  Thank you.

Well, I will admit that it probably doesn't make sense to mutate an 
object after it's put into a dict (or at least mutate it in a way which 
changes it's hash value and/or whether it compares equal to the original 
object).  If you did (assuming lists were allowed as keys):

l = [1, 2, 3]
d = {l: spam}
l.append(4)
print d[l]

I'm not sure what I would expect to print.  It's not too hard to 
experiment, though.  All you need do is:

class HashableList(list):
def __hash__(self):
return hash(tuple(self))

and python is then happy to let you use a list as a key.  I just played 
around with this a bit off-line.  I think I got the results I was 
expecting, but since I'm not sure what I was expecting, that's hard to 
say.

However, you didn't ask if it made sense to mutate an object after using 
it as a key.  You asked if it made sense to let the object remain 
mutable after using it as a key.  That's a harder question.

Let's say I had lots of of lists I wanted to use a dictionary keys.  As 
it stands now, I have to convert them to tuples, which means copying all 
the data.  For a lot of data, that's inefficient.

Wouldn't it be nice (or at least, more efficient) if I could just use 
the original lists as keys directly, without the extra copy?  I would 
have to understand that even though they are mutable, interesting (and 
perhaps, unwanted) things if I actually mutated them.  But, we're all 
consenting adults here.  If I'm willing to accept responsibility for the 
consequences of my actions in return for the efficiency gain, why 
shouldn't I be allowed to?

I guess the answer is, that I am allowed to.  I just need to do the 
HashableList deal, shown above (no broken URL required to read the code).
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Re: Python Interview Questions

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 10:01:01 -0800, chinjannisha wrote:

 Hi I had one doubt.. I know very little bit of python .I wanted to know
 when to use list,tuple,dictionary and set? Please reply me asap

Use a list when you want a list of items that should all be treated the 
same way:

list_of_numbers = [1, 3, 5.1, 2, 6.5]

total = sum(list_of_numbers)


or when you need a collection of items where the order they are in is 
important:

winners = ['george', 'susan', 'henry']  # 1st, 2nd, 3rd place

print('The winner is:', winners[0])


Use a tuple when you want a collection of items that mean different 
things, a bit like a C struct or Pascal record:

a = (23, henry, True, 'engineer')
b = (42, natalie, False, 'manager')
c = (17, george, True, 'student')


Use a dict when you need a collection of key:value mappings:

config = {'name': 'fred', 'pagesize': 'A4', 'verbose': True, 'size': 18}
address = {'fred': 'f...@example.com', 'sally': 'sally_sm...@example.com'}

if config['verbose']:
print('sending email...')
send_email_to(address['fred'], Subject: Hello)


Use a set when you want to represent a collection of items and the order 
is not important:

failed = {'fred', 'tom', 'sally'}  # set literal syntax in Python 3 only
# use set(['fred', 'tom', 'sally']) in Python 2

if 'george' in failed:
print('George, you have failed!')



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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-11-18 Thread Roy Smith

In article 50a8acdc$0$29978$c3e8da3$54964...@news.astraweb.com,
 Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:

 Use a list when you want a list of items that should all be treated the 
 same way [...] or when you need a collection of items where the order they 
 are in is 
 important:

 Use a tuple when you want a collection of items that mean different 
 things, a bit like a C struct or Pascal record:

That is certainly the right answer according to the One True Church Of 
Pythonic Orthodoxy And Theoretical Correctness.  But, let me give an 
alternative answer which works for The Unwashed Masses Who Live In The 
Trenches And Write Python Code For A Living:

Use a list when you need an ordered collection which is mutable (i.e. 
can be altered after being created).  Use a tuple when you need an 
immutable list (such as for a dictionary key).
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Re: Python Interview Questions

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 08:53:25 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

 In article 50a8acdc$0$29978$c3e8da3$54964...@news.astraweb.com,
  Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
 
 Use a list when you want a list of items that should all be treated the
 same way [...] or when you need a collection of items where the order
 they are in is important:

 Use a tuple when you want a collection of items that mean different
 things, a bit like a C struct or Pascal record:
 
 That is certainly the right answer according to the One True Church Of
 Pythonic Orthodoxy And Theoretical Correctness.

Oh I'm sorry, did something I say suggest that the couple of examples I 
gave are the *only* acceptable uses? My apologies for not giving an 
exhaustive list of every possible use of lists and tuples, I'll be sure 
to punish myself severely for the lapse.


 But, let me give an
 alternative answer which works for The Unwashed Masses Who Live In The
 Trenches And Write Python Code For A Living:
 
 Use a list when you need an ordered collection which is mutable (i.e.
 can be altered after being created).  Use a tuple when you need an
 immutable list (such as for a dictionary key).

I keep hearing about this last one, but I wonder... who *actually* does 
this? I've created many, many lists over the years -- lists of names, 
lists of phone numbers, lists of directory search paths, all sorts of 
things. I've never needed to use one as a dictionary key.

Under what sort of circumstances would somebody want to take a mutable 
list of data, say a list of email addresses, freeze it into a known 
state, and use that frozen state as a key in a dict? What would be the 
point? Even if there was some meaningful reason to look up this list of 
12000 email addresses as a single key, it is going to get out of sync 
with the actual mutable list.

Sure, I have built a collection of items as a list, because lists are 
mutable, then frozen it into a tuple, and *thrown the list away*, then 
used the tuple as a key. But that's not the same thing, the intent is 
different. In my case, the data was never intended to be a list, it was 
always intended to be a fixed record-like collection, the use of list was 
as a temporary data structure used for construction. A bit like the idiom 
of ''.join(some_list).

But I can't think of any meaningful, non-contrived example where I might 
want an actual mutable list of values as a dict key.


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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-11-18 Thread D'Arcy J.M. Cain

On 18 Nov 2012 16:50:52 GMT
Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
 On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 08:53:25 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:
  Use a list when you need an ordered collection which is mutable
  (i.e. can be altered after being created).  Use a tuple when you
  need an immutable list (such as for a dictionary key).
 
 I keep hearing about this last one, but I wonder... who *actually*
 does this? I've created many, many lists over the years -- lists of
 names, lists of phone numbers, lists of directory search paths, all
 sorts of things. I've never needed to use one as a dictionary key.

Well, as long as *you* never needed it then...

CellBlock = 9 # There's a riot going on...
Cell = 17
Bunk = top

Prisoner = {(CellBlock, Cell, Bunk): Bernie Madoff}

-- 
D'Arcy J.M. Cain da...@druid.net |  Democracy is three wolves
http://www.druid.net/darcy/|  and a sheep voting on
+1 416 425 1212 (DoD#0082)(eNTP)   |  what's for dinner.
IM: da...@vex.net
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-11-18 Thread Roy Smith

In article 50a911ec$0$29978$c3e8da3$54964...@news.astraweb.com,
 Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:

 Oh I'm sorry, did something I say suggest that the couple of examples I 
 gave are the *only* acceptable uses? My apologies for not giving an 
 exhaustive list of every possible use of lists and tuples, I'll be sure 
 to punish myself severely for the lapse.

Hmmm.  I didn't mean any offense.  I was just pointing out that what's 
true in theory and what's true in practice aren't always the same.

 Under what sort of circumstances would somebody want to take a mutable 
 list of data, say a list of email addresses, freeze it into a known 
 state, and use that frozen state as a key in a dict?

I've got a script which trolls our log files looking for python stack 
dumps.  For each dump it finds, it computes a signature (basically, a 
call sequence which led to the exception) and uses this signature as a 
dictionary key.  Here's the relevant code (abstracted slightly for 
readability):

def main(args):
crashes = {}
[...]
for line in open(log_file):
if does_not_look_like_a_stack_dump(line):
 continue
lines = traceback_helper.unfold(line)
header, stack = traceback_helper.extract_stack(lines)
signature = tuple(stack)
if signature in crashes:
count, header = crashes[signature]
crashes[signature] = (count + 1, header)
else:
crashes[signature] = (1, header)

You can find traceback_helper at 
https://bitbucket.org/roysmith/python-tools/src/4f8118d175ed/logs/traceba
ck_helper.py

The stack that's returned is a list.  It's inherently a list, per the 
classic definition:

* It's variable length.  Different stacks have different depths.

* It's homogeneous.  There's nothing particularly significant about each 
entry other than it's the next one in the stack.

* It's mutable.  I can build it up one item at a time as I discover them.

* It's ordered.  f1(f2()) is not the same as f2(f1()).

But, to use it as a dictionary key, I need to make it into a tuple, 
since keys have to be immutable.
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-11-18 Thread Chris Angelico

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 4:16 AM, D'Arcy J.M. Cain da...@druid.net wrote:
 On 18 Nov 2012 16:50:52 GMT
 Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
 On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 08:53:25 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:
  Use a list when you need an ordered collection which is mutable
  (i.e. can be altered after being created).  Use a tuple when you
  need an immutable list (such as for a dictionary key).

 I keep hearing about this last one, but I wonder... who *actually*
 does this? I've created many, many lists over the years -- lists of
 names, lists of phone numbers, lists of directory search paths, all
 sorts of things. I've never needed to use one as a dictionary key.

 Well, as long as *you* never needed it then...

 CellBlock = 9 # There's a riot going on...
 Cell = 17
 Bunk = top

 Prisoner = {(CellBlock, Cell, Bunk): Bernie Madoff}

That's a structure, not a list. Every key will consist of precisely
three values: two integers and one keyword string. Already covered by
a previous example.

ChrisA
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Re: Python Interview Questions

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 12:53:50 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

 I've got a script which trolls our log files looking for python stack
 dumps.  For each dump it finds, it computes a signature (basically, a
 call sequence which led to the exception) and uses this signature as a
 dictionary key.  Here's the relevant code (abstracted slightly for
 readability):
 
 def main(args):
 crashes = {}
 [...]
 for line in open(log_file):
 if does_not_look_like_a_stack_dump(line):
  continue
 lines = traceback_helper.unfold(line)
 header, stack = traceback_helper.extract_stack(lines)
 signature = tuple(stack)
 if signature in crashes:
 count, header = crashes[signature]
 crashes[signature] = (count + 1, header)
 else:
 crashes[signature] = (1, header)
 
 You can find traceback_helper at
 https://bitbucket.org/roysmith/python-tools/src/4f8118d175ed/logs/
 traceback_helper.py
 
 The stack that's returned is a list.  It's inherently a list, per the
 classic definition:

Er, no, it's inherently a blob of multiple text lines. Sure, you've built 
it a line at a time by using a list, but I've already covered that case. 
Once you've identified a stack, you never append to it, sort it, delete 
lines in the middle of it... none of these list operations are meaningful 
for a Python stack trace. The stack becomes a fixed string, and not just 
because you use it as a dict key, but because inherently it counts as a 
single, immutable blob of lines.

A tuple of individual lines is one reasonable data structure for a blob 
of lines. Another would be a single string:

signature = '\n'.join(stack)

Depending on what you plan to do with the signatures, one or the other 
implementation might be better. I'm sure that there are other data 
structures as well.


 * It's variable length.  Different stacks have different depths.

Once complete, the stack trace is fixed length, but that fixed length is 
different from one stack to the next. Deleting a line would make it 
incomplete, and adding a line would make it invalid.


 * It's homogeneous.  There's nothing particularly significant about each
 entry other than it's the next one in the stack.
 
 * It's mutable.  I can build it up one item at a time as I discover
 them.

The complete stack trace is inhomogeneous and immutable. I've already 
covered immutability above: removing, adding or moving lines will 
invalidate the stack trace. Inhomogeneity comes from the structure of a 
stack trace. The mere fact that each line is a string does not mean that 
any two lines are equivalent. Different lines represent different things.

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File ./prattle.py, line 873, in select
selection = self.do_callback(cb, response)
  File ./prattle.py, line 787, in do_callback
raise callback
ValueError: what do you mean?

is a valid stack. But:

Traceback (most recent call last):
raise callback
selection = self.do_callback(cb, response)
  File ./prattle.py, line 787, in do_callback
ValueError: what do you mean?
  File ./prattle.py, line 873, in select

is not. A stack trace has structure. The equivalent here is the 
difference between:

ages = [23, 42, 19, 67,  # age, age, age, age
17, 94, 32, 51,  # ...
]

values = [23, 1972, 1, 34500,  # age, year, number of children, income
  35, 1985, 0, 67900,  # age, year, number of children, income
  ]

A stack trace is closer to the second example than the first: each item 
may be the same type, but the items don't represent the same *kind of 
thing*. 


You could make a stack trace homogeneous with a little work:

- drop the Traceback line and the final exception line;
- parse the File lines to extract the useful fields;
- combine them with the source code.

Now you have a blob of homogeneous records, here shown as lines of text 
with ! as field separator:

./prattle.py ! 873 ! select ! selection = self.do_callback(cb, response)
./prattle.py ! 787 ! do_callback ! raise callback

But there's really nothing you can do about the immutability. There isn't 
any meaningful reason why you might want to take a complete stack trace 
and add or delete lines from it.


-- 
Steven
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-11-18 Thread Roy Smith

In article 50a97de0$0$29983$c3e8da3$54964...@news.astraweb.com,
 Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:


  The stack that's returned is a list.  It's inherently a list, per the
  classic definition:
 
 Er, no, it's inherently a blob of multiple text lines.

No, it's a list that looks like (taken from the doc string of the code I 
referenced):

[('/usr/lib/.../base.py', 'get_response'),
 ('/home/songza/.../views.py', 'song_info'),
 ('/home/songza.../api.py', 'get_song'),
 ('/home/songza/.../api.py', 'api')]

[it doesn't really have ...'s in the paths; I just elided some text to 
make it easier to read]

  * It's homogeneous.  There's nothing particularly significant about each
  entry other than it's the next one in the stack.
 
 The complete stack trace is inhomogeneous and immutable. I've already 
 covered immutability above: removing, adding or moving lines will 
 invalidate the stack trace. Inhomogeneity comes from the structure of a 
 stack trace. The mere fact that each line is a string does not mean that 
 any two lines are equivalent. Different lines represent different things.

No.  Each entry in the list represents a source file and a function 
name.  They're all the same shape.  You could remove one or add 
another one, or shuffle the order, and you would have something which 
was syntactically correct and semantically meaningful (even if it didn't 
represent an actual code path.

 - drop the Traceback line and the final exception line;
 - parse the File lines to extract the useful fields;
 - combine them with the source code.

You mean, kind of like the code I cited does? :-)

I think we're going to have to let this be.  You obviously have your 
concept of what a tuple is and what a list is.  I disagree.  I don't 
think either of us is right or wrong, we just have different ways of 
thinking about things.

You come at it from a theoretical point of view.  You think of each type 
as an embodiment of certain concepts (it represents a fixed-length 
heterogenous sequence).  Your thinking is driven by what each type was 
intended to be used for.

I come at it from a practical point of view.  To me, each type is a 
collection of methods.  I have certain operations I need to perform.  I 
pick the type which offers those operations.  If the set of operations I 
need to perform (in this case, {append, hash}) don't exist in a single 
type, I'm forced to use both types and convert from one to the other as 
needed.

The theorist understands that a chisel and a screwdriver were intended 
for different purposes, but the pragmatist gets the paint can open.
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-11-18 Thread Chris Angelico

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 1:09 PM, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote:
 The theorist understands that a chisel and a screwdriver were intended
 for different purposes, but the pragmatist gets the paint can open.

A good tool can always be used in ways its inventor never intended -
and it will function as its user expects.

$ some_program | egrep --color=always '(ERROR|^)'

will highlight the word ERROR in red anywhere it appears in the
program's output, while maintaining all other lines without color. Not
normal use of grep, to be sure, but quite functional.

A tuple may have been intended to be a record, a struct, whatever, but
it is what it is, and I'll use one any time it's the best tool for the
job. Maybe its immutability is critical; or maybe it's just the most
convenient syntax and all I care about is that it be iterable.

But when I'm explaining grep to someone, I'll describe it as a filter
that keeps only some lines from the original, and when I describe a
tuple, I'll point out that it's immutable and (potentially) hashable.
The obvious first, the unobvious later.

ChrisA
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-11-18 Thread Mark Lawrence


On 19/11/2012 02:09, Roy Smith wrote:


The theorist understands that a chisel and a screwdriver were intended
for different purposes, but the pragmatist gets the paint can open.



To throw a chiseldriver into the works, IIRC a tuple is way faster to 
create but accessing a list is much faster.  The obvious snag is that 
may have been Python 2.7 whereas 3.3 is completely different.  Sorry but 
I'm currently wearing my XXXL size Lazy Bone Idle Hat so have no figures 
to back my probably incorrect memory up, anyone know anything about this?


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Mark Lawrence.

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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-11-18 Thread Ian Kelly

On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 7:42 PM, Mark Lawrence breamore...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
 To throw a chiseldriver into the works, IIRC a tuple is way faster to create
 but accessing a list is much faster.  The obvious snag is that may have been
 Python 2.7 whereas 3.3 is completely different.  Sorry but I'm currently
 wearing my XXXL size Lazy Bone Idle Hat so have no figures to back my
 probably incorrect memory up, anyone know anything about this?

It's not been my experience with Python 2.7 that list access is faster
than tuple access.  Tuples are as fast as or faster than lists, pretty
much universally.  They seem to have closed the gap a bit in
Python 3.3, though, as the following timings show.  For one-shot
construction, tuples seem to be more efficient for short sequences,
but then lists win for longer sequences, although not by much.  Of
course, lists are always going to be much slower if you build them up
with appends and extends.

C:\python -m timeit -s x = range(10) tuple(x)
100 loops, best of 3: 0.773 usec per loop

C:\python -m timeit -s x = range(10) list(x)
100 loops, best of 3: 0.879 usec per loop

C:\python -m timeit -s x = range(100) tuple(x)
10 loops, best of 3: 2.88 usec per loop

C:\python -m timeit -s x = range(100) list(x)
10 loops, best of 3: 2.63 usec per loop

C:\python -m timeit -s x = range(1000) tuple(x)
1 loops, best of 3: 37.4 usec per loop

C:\python -m timeit -s x = range(1000) list(x)
1 loops, best of 3: 36.2 usec per loop

C:\python -m timeit -s x = range(1) tuple(x)
1000 loops, best of 3: 418 usec per loop

C:\python -m timeit -s x = range(1) list(x)
1000 loops, best of 3: 410 usec per loop


For iteration, tuples are consistently 7-8% faster.


C:\python -m timeit -s x = tuple(range(10)) for i in x: pass
100 loops, best of 3: 0.467 usec per loop

C:\python -m timeit -s x = list(range(10)) for i in x: pass
100 loops, best of 3: 0.498 usec per loop

C:\python -m timeit -s x = tuple(range(100)) for i in x: pass
10 loops, best of 3: 3.31 usec per loop

C:\python -m timeit -s x = list(range(100)) for i in x: pass
10 loops, best of 3: 3.56 usec per loop

C:\python -m timeit -s x = tuple(range(1000)) for i in x: pass
1 loops, best of 3: 31.6 usec per loop

C:\python -m timeit -s x = list(range(1000)) for i in x: pass
1 loops, best of 3: 34.3 usec per loop

C:\python -m timeit -s x = tuple(range(1)) for i in x: pass
1000 loops, best of 3: 318 usec per loop

C:\python -m timeit -s x = list(range(1)) for i in x: pass
1000 loops, best of 3: 341 usec per loop


For direct item access, tuples seem to be about 2-3% faster.


C:\python -m timeit -s import operator as o; x = tuple(range(10)); g
= o.itemgetter(*range(len(x))) g(x)
100 loops, best of 3: 0.67 usec per loop

C:\python -m timeit -s import operator as o; x = list(range(10)); g
= o.itemgetter(*range(len(x))) g(x)
100 loops, best of 3: 0.674 usec per loop

C:\python -m timeit -s import operator as o; x = tuple(range(100));
g = o.itemgetter(*range(len(x))) g(x)
10 loops, best of 3: 4.52 usec per loop

C:\python -m timeit -s import operator as o; x = list(range(100)); g
= o.itemgetter(*range(len(x))) g(x)
10 loops, best of 3: 4.65 usec per loop

C:\python -m timeit -s import operator as o; x = tuple(range(1000));
g = o.itemgetter(*range(len(x))) g(x)
1 loops, best of 3: 43.2 usec per loop

C:\python -m timeit -s import operator as o; x = list(range(1000));
g = o.itemgetter(*range(len(x))) g(x)
1 loops, best of 3: 43.7 usec per loop

C:\python -m timeit -s import operator as o; x =
tuple(range(1)); g = o.itemgetter(*range(len(x))) g(x)
1000 loops, best of 3: 422 usec per loop

C:\python -m timeit -s import operator as o; x = list(range(1));
g = o.itemgetter(*range(len(x))) g(x)
1000 loops, best of 3: 447 usec per loop
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Re: Python Interview Questions

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 21:09:36 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

 In article 50a97de0$0$29983$c3e8da3$54964...@news.astraweb.com,
  Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
 
 
  The stack that's returned is a list.  It's inherently a list, per the
  classic definition:
 
 Er, no, it's inherently a blob of multiple text lines.
 
 No, it's a list that looks like (taken from the doc string of the code I
 referenced):
 
 [('/usr/lib/.../base.py', 'get_response'),
  ('/home/songza/.../views.py', 'song_info'),
  ('/home/songza.../api.py', 'get_song'), 
  ('/home/songza/.../api.py', 'api')]
 
 [it doesn't really have ...'s in the paths; I just elided some text to
 make it easier to read]

I see. It wasn't clear from your earlier description that the items had 
been post-processed from collections of raw log lines to fixed records. 
But it doesn't actually change my analysis any. See below.

By the way, based on the sample data you show, your script is possibly 
broken. You don't record either the line number that raises, or the 
exception raised, so your script doesn't differentiate between different 
errors that happen to occur with similar stack traces. (I say possibly 
broken because I don't know what your requirements are. Maybe your 
requirements are sufficiently wide that you don't care that distinct 
failures are counted together.)

E.g. these three stack traces will probably generate the same fixed 
record, even though the errors are distinct:

#1
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File ./spam.py, line 20, in select
selection = func(a, b)
  File ./spam.py, line 60, in func
return 1/x
ZeroDivisionError: float division


#2
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File ./spam.py, line 20, in select
selection = func(a, b)
  File ./spam.py, line 60, in func
return 1/x
TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for /: 'int' and 'NoneType'


#3
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File ./spam.py, line 20, in select
selection = func(a, b)
  File ./spam.py, line 55, in func
y = 1/(a + b)
ZeroDivisionError: float division


Maybe that's okay for your application, but it strikes me as odd that you 
do distinguish *some* distinct errors in the same function, but not 
others.



  * It's homogeneous.  There's nothing particularly significant about
  each entry other than it's the next one in the stack.
 
 The complete stack trace is inhomogeneous and immutable. I've already
 covered immutability above: removing, adding or moving lines will
 invalidate the stack trace. Inhomogeneity comes from the structure of a
 stack trace. The mere fact that each line is a string does not mean
 that any two lines are equivalent. Different lines represent different
 things.
 
 No.  Each entry in the list represents a source file and a function
 name.  They're all the same shape.  You could remove one or add
 another one, or shuffle the order, and you would have something which
 was syntactically correct and semantically meaningful (even if it didn't
 represent an actual code path.

If you remove/add/shuffle lines in the stack, you no longer have the same 
stack. Take the example you gave before:

stack1 = [('/usr/lib/.../base.py', 'get_response'),
  ('/home/songza/.../views.py', 'song_info'),
  ('/home/songza.../api.py', 'get_song'), 
  ('/home/songza/.../api.py', 'api')
  ]

Here's a different stack trace, representing a different code path, which 
as you say is syntactically correct and semantically meaningful:

stack2 = [('/home/songza/.../api.py', 'api'),
  ('/home/songza.../api.py', 'get_song'),
  ('/home/songza/.../views.py', 'song_info'),
  ('/usr/lib/.../base.py', 'get_response')
  ]

Since they are different stacks, they are treated as different keys:

data = {stack1: 11, stack2: 22}

Do you agree that this is what your application expects? Different stack 
traces are different keys, associated with different values.

I claim this only makes sense if you treat the stacks as inherently 
immutable. Never mind Python's limitation. Let's pretend we were running 
this code under some other language, NeoPython, which allowed mutable 
keys.

You claim that stacks are *inherently mutable*. So I should be able to do 
this:

stack1.sort()  # it's the *same stack*, all I've done is mutate it
print data[stack1]

and expect to see 11 printed. I am looking at the same key, right? So I 
certainly don't expect to see the value associated with a completely 
different key.

But wait a minute... after sorting, stack1 and stack2 now are equal. I 
could just as easily expect to see 22 printed.

I thought we had just agreed that stack1 and stack2 are *different* keys. 
Of course they are different. They represent different code paths. But 
after sorting stack1, it looks exactly like stack2. It looks like a 
different code path. It *lies* -- it no longer represents the code path 
that it actually represents, instead it looks like a

Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-11-17 Thread chinjannisha

Hi I had one doubt.. I know very little bit of python .I wanted to know when to 
use list,tuple,dictionary and set? Please reply me asap

thanks
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-09-06 Thread MRAB

On 06/09/2012 05:24, Kushal Kumaran wrote:

On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 3:11 PM, Stephen Anto charvigro...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Kushal Kumaran
kushal.kumaran+pyt...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 12:20 PM, charvigro...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday, October 30, 2007 11:44:01 PM UTC+5:30, Krypto wrote:
Hi,

I have used Python for a couple of projects last year and I found it
extremely useful. I could write two middle size projects in 2-3 months
(part time). Right now I am a bit rusty and trying to catch up again
with Python.

I am now appearing for Job Interviews these days and I am wondering if
anybody of you appeared for a Python Interview. Can you please share
the questions you were asked. That will be great help to me.

Finally I have decided to put best interview question and answers.

Please visit http://www.f2finterview.com/web/CorePython/ for core python
and http://www.f2finterview.com/web/PythonAdvanced/ for advanced python

As I see from a quick glance, several of your answers seem to be
copied from the python faq at http://docs.python.org/faq/. The
copyright notice for the python.org website seems to be at
http://docs.python.org/copyright.html. Do you have the Python
Software Foundation's permission to copy large chunks of the
python.org website and claim it as your own content?

Thank you for your information, I really sorry for this, if possible could
you note which are the questions taken from faq, we will remove it as early
as possible.

Since your website's Terms of Use state that you own the content, it
is your problem to make sure whatever's there is there legally.

Here's one example, though, to get you started: See the entry Why
can’t I use an assignment in an expression? at
http://docs.python.org/faq/design.html, and compare with the content
under the identical heading on page 3 of the CorePython section.

The section below it comes from here:

http://svn.effbot.org/public/stuff/sandbox/pyfaq/is-there-a-tool-to-help-find-bugs-or-perform-static-analysis.xml

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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-09-05 Thread charvigroups

Hi Guys,

Finally I have decided to put best interview question and answers.

Please visit http://www.f2finterview.com/web/CorePython/ for core python and 
http://www.f2finterview.com/web/PythonAdvanced/ for advanced python

On Tuesday, October 30, 2007 11:44:01 PM UTC+5:30, Krypto wrote:
 Hi,
 
 I have used Python for a couple of projects last year and I found it
 extremely useful. I could write two middle size projects in 2-3 months
 (part time). Right now I am a bit rusty and trying to catch up again
 with Python.
 
 I am now appearing for Job Interviews these days and I am wondering if
 anybody of you appeared for a Python Interview. Can you please share
 the questions you were asked. That will be great help to me.
 
 Thanks,
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-09-05 Thread Kushal Kumaran

On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 12:20 PM,  charvigro...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Tuesday, October 30, 2007 11:44:01 PM UTC+5:30, Krypto wrote:
 Hi,

 I have used Python for a couple of projects last year and I found it
 extremely useful. I could write two middle size projects in 2-3 months
 (part time). Right now I am a bit rusty and trying to catch up again
 with Python.

 I am now appearing for Job Interviews these days and I am wondering if
 anybody of you appeared for a Python Interview. Can you please share
 the questions you were asked. That will be great help to me.


 Finally I have decided to put best interview question and answers.

 Please visit http://www.f2finterview.com/web/CorePython/ for core python and 
 http://www.f2finterview.com/web/PythonAdvanced/ for advanced python


As I see from a quick glance, several of your answers seem to be
copied from the python faq at http://docs.python.org/faq/.  The
copyright notice for the python.org website seems to be at
http://docs.python.org/copyright.html.  Do you have the Python
Software Foundation's permission to copy large chunks of the
python.org website and claim it as your own content?

-- 
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kushal
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-09-05 Thread Peter Otten

charvigro...@gmail.com wrote:

 Finally I have decided to put best interview question and answers.
 
 Please visit http://***/web/CorePython/ for core python
 and http://***/web/PythonAdvanced/ for advanced python

Hm, are you a reformed PHP programmer who has never heard of sql injection 
attacks? The first advanced answer (and probably all the database-related 
stuff) should definitely be withdrawn.

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Re: Python Interview Questions

On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 12:21 AM, Peter Otten __pete...@web.de wrote:
 charvigro...@gmail.com wrote:

 Finally I have decided to put best interview question and answers.

 Please visit http://***/web/CorePython/ for core python
 and http://***/web/PythonAdvanced/ for advanced python

 Hm, are you a reformed PHP programmer who has never heard of sql injection
 attacks? The first advanced answer (and probably all the database-related
 stuff) should definitely be withdrawn.

I wouldn't go that far. The 'name' parameter, I would expect, would be
a constant. However, this strikes me as encouraging some really
inefficient code, like iterating over all the rows in a table with N+1
queries (one to get the length, then a separate query for each row).
Plus, use of limit without order by is not guaranteed (although since
this is specific to MySQL, it's unlikely you'll run into trouble - but
PostgreSQL, with its MVCC storage system, frequently reorders rows in
a table).

As a general rule, I don't like SQL builders. I'd prefer to directly
embed SQL statements in my code. Although sometimes a class can
helpfully manage some things, it's seldom worth having something that
tries to pretend a table is iterable in that sort of way.

ChrisA
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Re: Python Interview Questions

On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 12:34 AM, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
 However, this strikes me as encouraging some really
 inefficient code, like iterating over all the rows in a table with N+1
 queries (one to get the length, then a separate query for each row).

Huh. And then I scroll down, and that's precisely what he's doing. Do
you understand why this is a bad thing to do?

ChrisA
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-09-05 Thread Ian Kelly

On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 8:34 AM, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
 I wouldn't go that far. The 'name' parameter, I would expect, would be
 a constant.

The 'item' parameter, though, is probably not a constant, and it's
interpolated just the same.

 However, this strikes me as encouraging some really
 inefficient code, like iterating over all the rows in a table with N+1
 queries (one to get the length, then a separate query for each row).
 Plus, use of limit without order by is not guaranteed (although since
 this is specific to MySQL, it's unlikely you'll run into trouble - but
 PostgreSQL, with its MVCC storage system, frequently reorders rows in
 a table).

The lack of an ORDER BY is the least of the problems with that SQL.
He's also using LIMIT without OFFSET, so the only thing that the
'item' argument changes is how many rows are returned (all but one of
which are ignored), not which one is actually fetched.

It's a bit sad that these are touted as answers to interview
questions.  I wouldn't hire anybody who gave answers like these.
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Re: Python Interview Questions

On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 1:22 AM, Ian Kelly ian.g.ke...@gmail.com wrote:
 The lack of an ORDER BY is the least of the problems with that SQL.
 He's also using LIMIT without OFFSET, so the only thing that the
 'item' argument changes is how many rows are returned (all but one of
 which are ignored), not which one is actually fetched.

No, he's using the two-arg form of LIMIT.

 It's a bit sad that these are touted as answers to interview
 questions.  I wouldn't hire anybody who gave answers like these.

The code does not work as posted; there are args missing from the
INSERT example, for, uhh, example. It makes it hard to evaluate the
quality of the code, in some places. I'm not sure what these posts are
supposed to be, but I hope they're not being held up as model answers
to interview questions. For a start, I can't find any sort of clear
questions.

Or is the code itself the question and How would you improve this?

ChrisA
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-09-05 Thread Dave Angel

On 09/05/2012 11:34 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
 On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 1:22 AM, Ian Kelly ian.g.ke...@gmail.com wrote:
 The lack of an ORDER BY is the least of the problems with that SQL.
 He's also using LIMIT without OFFSET, so the only thing that the
 'item' argument changes is how many rows are returned (all but one of
 which are ignored), not which one is actually fetched.
 No, he's using the two-arg form of LIMIT.

 It's a bit sad that these are touted as answers to interview
 questions.  I wouldn't hire anybody who gave answers like these.
 The code does not work as posted; there are args missing from the
 INSERT example, for, uhh, example. It makes it hard to evaluate the
 quality of the code, in some places. I'm not sure what these posts are
 supposed to be, but I hope they're not being held up as model answers
 to interview questions. For a start, I can't find any sort of clear
 questions.

 Or is the code itself the question and How would you improve this?

 ChrisA

Skip ahead to about page 13 to get more traditional questions,  There,
many of the simplest questions have invalid answers, or confusing
explanations.

For example, on page 15, the question that says  ... if a list of words
is empty...   uses a=   as its source data to test with.

The first question on page 16 forgets to construct a loop, thus
processing only the first line in the file.

page 18 introduces new syntax to the language:
 print n+=1  ##will work

and reassures us in the comment that it will work !!

page 18 also claims that values are passed to function by value.





-- 

DaveA

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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-09-05 Thread Roy Smith

In article d4e47e64-91d3-4b9f-9e98-4985cd8cb...@googlegroups.com,
 charvigro...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi Guys,
 
 Finally I have decided to put best interview question and answers.
 
 Please visit http://www.f2finterview.com/web/CorePython/ for core python and 
 http://www.f2finterview.com/web/PythonAdvanced/ for advanced python

I was going to comment on some of the specific items, but I got hung up 
being unable to copy-paste text from your site so I could quote it.  
That's usually done with some variation on user-select: none in the 
CSS, but I didn't see that.  I'm assuming it's some javascript trickery.

Why do you do that?  It degrades the usability of the site, and doesn't 
provide any real protection against people stealing content.
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-09-05 Thread Ian Kelly

On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 9:34 AM, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 1:22 AM, Ian Kelly ian.g.ke...@gmail.com wrote:
 The lack of an ORDER BY is the least of the problems with that SQL.
 He's also using LIMIT without OFFSET, so the only thing that the
 'item' argument changes is how many rows are returned (all but one of
 which are ignored), not which one is actually fetched.

 No, he's using the two-arg form of LIMIT.

My mistake.  I didn't even know there was a two-arg form of LIMIT.
Must be a MySQL thing. :-)

Cheers,
Ian
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-09-05 Thread Roy Smith

In article mailman.245.1346858610.27098.python-l...@python.org,
 Ian Kelly ian.g.ke...@gmail.com wrote:

 It's a bit sad that these are touted as answers to interview
 questions.  I wouldn't hire anybody who gave answers like these.

Over time, I've become convinced that most interview questions are crap.  
The best programming interview questions always start with, write a 
program 
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-09-05 Thread Roy Smith

In article mailman.255.1346863293.27098.python-l...@python.org,
 Ian Kelly ian.g.ke...@gmail.com wrote:

 My mistake.  I didn't even know there was a two-arg form of LIMIT.
 Must be a MySQL thing. :-)

What are you talking about?  SQL is an ISO Standard.  Therefore, all 
implementations work the same way.  Didn't you get the memo?
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Re: Python Interview Questions

On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 2:40 AM, Ian Kelly ian.g.ke...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 9:34 AM, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 1:22 AM, Ian Kelly ian.g.ke...@gmail.com wrote:
 The lack of an ORDER BY is the least of the problems with that SQL.
 He's also using LIMIT without OFFSET, so the only thing that the
 'item' argument changes is how many rows are returned (all but one of
 which are ignored), not which one is actually fetched.

 No, he's using the two-arg form of LIMIT.

 My mistake.  I didn't even know there was a two-arg form of LIMIT.
 Must be a MySQL thing. :-)

Yeah, it's not something I've used, but when my current job started,
we were using MySQL and I used to eyeball the logs to see what queries
were performing most suboptimally. (There were some pretty egregious
ones. Most memorable was rewriting a TEXT field several times a second
with several KB of PHP serialized array with status/statistical
information. Structured information, yes. Stored as a clob.) My first
databasing experience was DB2, with the uber-verbose FETCH FIRST n
ROW[S] ONLY, but now I'm happily on Postgres.

Everyone who wants to use LIMIT without ORDER BY should try their code
on Postgres. You'll quickly discover the problem.

ChrisA
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-09-05 Thread Kushal Kumaran

On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 3:11 PM, Stephen Anto charvigro...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Kushal Kumaran
 kushal.kumaran+pyt...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 12:20 PM,  charvigro...@gmail.com wrote:
  On Tuesday, October 30, 2007 11:44:01 PM UTC+5:30, Krypto wrote:
  Hi,
 
  I have used Python for a couple of projects last year and I found it
  extremely useful. I could write two middle size projects in 2-3 months
  (part time). Right now I am a bit rusty and trying to catch up again
  with Python.
 
  I am now appearing for Job Interviews these days and I am wondering if
  anybody of you appeared for a Python Interview. Can you please share
  the questions you were asked. That will be great help to me.
 
 
  Finally I have decided to put best interview question and answers.
 
  Please visit http://www.f2finterview.com/web/CorePython/ for core python
  and http://www.f2finterview.com/web/PythonAdvanced/ for advanced python
 

 As I see from a quick glance, several of your answers seem to be
 copied from the python faq at http://docs.python.org/faq/.  The
 copyright notice for the python.org website seems to be at
 http://docs.python.org/copyright.html.  Do you have the Python
 Software Foundation's permission to copy large chunks of the
 python.org website and claim it as your own content?


 Thank you for your information, I really sorry for this, if possible could
 you note which are the questions taken from faq, we will remove it as early
 as possible.


Since your website's Terms of Use state that you own the content, it
is your problem to make sure whatever's there is there legally.

Here's one example, though, to get you started: See the entry Why
can’t I use an assignment in an expression? at
http://docs.python.org/faq/design.html, and compare with the content
under the identical heading on page 3 of the CorePython section.

-- 
regards,
kushal
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-08-15 Thread Robert Miles


On 7/10/2012 1:08 PM, Demian Brecht wrote:

I also judge candidates on their beards 
(http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/06/beard-gallery/). If the beard's 
awesome enough, no questions needed. They're pro.


You should hire me quickly, then, since I have a beard, already turning 
partly gray.  Never mind that the computer languages I have studied

enough to write even one program don't yet include Python.

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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-07-10 Thread rusi

On Jul 10, 4:40 am, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote:
 In article mailman.1965.1341876813.4697.python-l...@python.org,
  Christian Heimes li...@cheimes.de wrote:

  Am 09.07.2012 23:22, schrieb Peter:
   One of my favourite questions when interviewing - and it was 100% reliable
   :-) - what are your hobbies?

   If the answer included programming then they were hired, if not, then they
   went to the B list.

  on the contrary! When a potential candidate has computer stuff as her
  main hobby then she goes on the no-hire list.

 I think this points out the silliness of these kinds of questions.
 There is no right answer.  More to the point, the interviewee, when
 he/she gets one of these questions, probably goes into hyper-analysis
 mode: Now, just what did he mean by that question?  He's likely to
 give the answer he thinks you want to hear.

 Do you really want to make hire/no-hire decisions based on somebody's
 ability to second-guess what you probably wanted to hear when you asked
 a pointless question?

Add to that the Heisenberging that happens to interviewees (and
interviewers) from reading this thread
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Re: Python Interview Questions

On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Shambhu Rajak
shambhu.ra...@kpitcummins.com wrote:
 I agree with Christian, a developer should have hobbies other than computer 
 stuffs. Versatile environment give more
 Ability to think differently.
 I like playing guitar :-)

Music and programming do go VERY well together. My hobbies include
online roleplaying (Dungeons  Dragons, etc), writing/managing a MUD,
playing the church organ, and arranging 19th-century music. It's not
at all an uncommon pairing.

But would a job interviewer REALLY care that I spend my Sunday
mornings up front, hiding behind two manuals and a set of faulty
pedals? Or would it be of interest that I play the odd video game (and
believe you me, some of the games I play are VERY odd)? If so, I
hereby resign all hope of comprehending job interviews, and will fall
back on Mr Hall Pycroft's notion[1] that there's absolutely no logic
to them at all.

ChrisA

[1] cf Sherlock Holmes: The Adventure of the Stock-Broker's Clerk
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-07-10 Thread Christian Heimes

Am 10.07.2012 09:33, schrieb Steven D'Aprano:
 This is why I hate job interviews. You have like 30 minutes, or even as 
 little as 30 seconds, to make a good impression on somebody who may or 
 may not be capable of telling the difference between a cheese sandwich 
 and a box of hair -- and even the *good* interviewers are probably making 
 their judgement on the basis of subjective factors with no right or wrong 
 answers.

IMHO one category of answers is always wrong: lies. You may oversell
yourself a bit, you can (and should) keep private matters to yourself
but don't lie.

 And live in a house in the suburbs with enough room for a garden, good 
 soil, and not in the shadow of buildings. And work hours where you are 
 home during daylight hours.

Almost everybody can garden under ideal conditions. I grow about 15
herbs, strawberries, tomatoes, chillies and flowers on a small balcony
in the middle of the city. This year I'm going to harvest at least 200
tomatoes from two plants in a 1m * 40cm * 40cm box of soil. I even have
a calabash plant that grows like crazy. See? :)

Christian

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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-07-10 Thread Jean-Michel Pichavant


Tim Chase wrote:

On 07/09/12 19:27, Roy Smith wrote:
  

prefer folks that know which features to check availability for
deployment.
  

Heh.  Tell me, when did strings get methods? :-)



IIRC, ~2.0?  I'm cognizant of the shift happening from the string
module to string methods, but I wouldn't expect deep history
knowledge--last I checked, RedHat still supports a RHEL version that
ships with 2.4, so that's about as far back as I'd probe these days
(so I'd drop the decorators question now).  Certainly not a
deal-breaker either way.  Just more data points.

-tkc



  
Why would you want to hire someone that knows something pointless as the 
version where feature X has been introduced ? Just tell him that feature 
X has been introducted in version Y, costless 2.5sec training. Don't you 
want to hire someone that knows things you don't and benefit from each 
others abilities, learning from each others, improving the company 
global skill range ?


JM

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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-07-10 Thread Mark Lawrence


On 10/07/2012 09:03, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Shambhu Rajak
shambhu.ra...@kpitcummins.com wrote:

I agree with Christian, a developer should have hobbies other than computer 
stuffs. Versatile environment give more
Ability to think differently.
I like playing guitar :-)


Music and programming do go VERY well together. My hobbies include
online roleplaying (Dungeons  Dragons, etc), writing/managing a MUD,
playing the church organ, and arranging 19th-century music. It's not
at all an uncommon pairing.

But would a job interviewer REALLY care that I spend my Sunday
mornings up front, hiding behind two manuals and a set of faulty
pedals? Or would it be of interest that I play the odd video game (and
believe you me, some of the games I play are VERY odd)? If so, I
hereby resign all hope of comprehending job interviews, and will fall
back on Mr Hall Pycroft's notion[1] that there's absolutely no logic
to them at all.

ChrisA

[1] cf Sherlock Holmes: The Adventure of the Stock-Broker's Clerk



Surely the purpose of asking questions about hobbies or similar is to 
establish whether or not the person is likely to fit in?


Slightly different tack, you have to get into the interview, i.e. pass 
the first thirty seconds test.  I recall reading in a book in the local 
library of a manager that wouldn't employ people unless they were 
wearing a new pair of shoes.  Guess they didn't take many people on.


--
Cheers.

Mark Lawrence.



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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-07-10 Thread Mark Lawrence


On 10/07/2012 09:11, Christian Heimes wrote:

Almost everybody can garden under ideal conditions. I grow about 15
herbs, strawberries, tomatoes, chillies and flowers on a small balcony
in the middle of the city. This year I'm going to harvest at least 200
tomatoes from two plants in a 1m * 40cm * 40cm box of soil. I even have
a calabash plant that grows like crazy. See? :)

Christian



Big 'ead :)

--
Cheers.

Mark Lawrence.



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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-07-10 Thread rusi

On Jul 10, 12:33 pm, Steven D'Aprano steve
+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
 This is why I hate job interviews. You have like 30 minutes, or even as
 little as 30 seconds, to make a good impression on somebody who may or
 may not be capable of telling the difference between a cheese sandwich
 and a box of hair -- and even the *good* interviewers are probably making
 their judgement on the basis of subjective factors with no right or wrong
 answers.

You make it sound terrible...
But just think which is worse: jobs decided in 30 minutes or marriages
decided in 30 seconds?
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-07-10 Thread Ethan Furman


Jean-Michel Pichavant wrote:
Why would you want to hire someone that knows something pointless as the 
version where feature X has been introduced ?


As an example from today, if someone claimed to have 5+ years of Python 
experience, but didn't know that 'with' was standard in 2.6 (or at least 
the end of the 2.x cycle) I would be suspicious that they actually had 
the experience they claimed.


~Ethan~
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-07-10 Thread BartC




Peter peter.milli...@gmail.com wrote in message 
news:35e7a860-fd41-4018-82f6-aabc32610...@googlegroups.com...
One of my favourite questions when interviewing - and it was 100% reliable 
:-) - what are your hobbies?


If the answer included programming then they were hired, if not, then they 
went to the B list.


In my experience, anybody who is really interested in programming will 
have it as a hobby (and is keen to learn even if they don't currently have 
the knowledge you require) - otherwise it is just a job.


Won't they be tempted to work on their pet project instead of what they're 
being paid for? There's also the risk of mixing up software created at home, 
with that done at work, with all the intellectual property issues that might 
arise.


--
Bartc 


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Re: Python Interview Questions

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 1:55 AM, BartC b...@freeuk.com wrote:
 There's also the risk of mixing up software created at home, with that done
 at work, with all the intellectual property issues that might arise.

You just make the matter clear from the beginning, for instance:
what's done at work stays at work, and copyright is assigned by the
act of pushing to the repository. I've lifted oddments of code from my
home projects to use at work; it's no different from using skills
learned at home, which is exactly what a programmer is being paid for.

This is another good reason to make license terms clear and explicit
on every project you ever put a hand to. Doesn't matter who's lifting
code from where to where, it's easy to work out whether it's
permissible or not.

ChrisA
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Re: Python Interview Questions

On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 09:05:50 -0700, Ethan Furman wrote:

 Jean-Michel Pichavant wrote:
 Why would you want to hire someone that knows something pointless as
 the version where feature X has been introduced ?
 
 As an example from today, if someone claimed to have 5+ years of Python
 experience, but didn't know that 'with' was standard in 2.6 (or at least
 the end of the 2.x cycle) I would be suspicious that they actually had
 the experience they claimed.

Be careful of jumping to conclusions though. Perhaps they have five years 
experience with Python 1.5, 2.3 and 2.4 on Centos systems. Of course, if 
they try to sell themselves as having five years experience with Python 
3.2 and they don't know anything about the with statement, that tells you 
everything you need to know.



-- 
Steven
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Re: Python Interview Questions

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 2:34 AM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
 Of course, if they try to sell themselves as having
 five years experience with Python 3.2...

... then they've been borrowing Guido's time machine for personal purposes.

ChrisA
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Re: Python Interview Questions

On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 11:29:24 +0200, Jean-Michel Pichavant wrote:

 Why would you want to hire someone that knows something pointless as the
 version where feature X has been introduced ? Just tell him that feature
 X has been introducted in version Y, costless 2.5sec training. Don't you
 want to hire someone that knows things you don't and benefit from each
 others abilities, learning from each others, improving the company
 global skill range ?

The reason for the question is to get some idea of how well the candidate 
actually knows Python. If you ask them questions that you don't know the 
answer to, how will you tell if they're right?

I certainly wouldn't disqualify a candidate if they didn't know what 
version introduced (say) decorators. If they said what's a decorator? 
or version 10, that would be a hint that they don't actually know much 
about Python. If they said I don't know, I'm still stuck on Python 2.3, 
they would get a point for honesty and lose a point for being way out of 
date. If they said version 2.3 or 2.5 (it's actually 2.4), well, that's 
close enough.

Of course, an acceptable answer would be buggered if I know, but if you 
give me a minute, I'll google it for you.


-- 
Steven
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Re: Python Interview Questions

On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 10:11:22 +0200, Christian Heimes wrote:

 Am 10.07.2012 09:33, schrieb Steven D'Aprano:
 This is why I hate job interviews. You have like 30 minutes, or even as
 little as 30 seconds, to make a good impression on somebody who may or
 may not be capable of telling the difference between a cheese sandwich
 and a box of hair -- and even the *good* interviewers are probably
 making their judgement on the basis of subjective factors with no right
 or wrong answers.
 
 IMHO one category of answers is always wrong: lies. You may oversell
 yourself a bit, you can (and should) keep private matters to yourself
 but don't lie.

If only that were true. I know quite a few people who looked the 
interviewer straight in the eye and told the most bare-faced lies without 
a trace of shame, and got the job. Ten years on, at least one of them is 
making something around $300,000 a year, based entirely on his ability to 
smile and tell customers plausible lies.

I can't lie to save my life, which is why I have trouble in interviews. 
But of course all good liars would say the same thing.



-- 
Steven
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-07-10 Thread Ethan Furman


Chris Angelico wrote:

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 2:34 AM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:

Of course, if they try to sell themselves as having
five years experience with Python 3.2...


... then they've been borrowing Guido's time machine for personal purposes.


Reminds me of a job posting a few years ago where the prospective 
employer wanted three plus years experience in some language, and that 
language had only been created a year and a half before.


~Ethan~
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Re: Python Interview Questions

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 2:51 AM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
 If only that were true. I know quite a few people who looked the
 interviewer straight in the eye and told the most bare-faced lies without
 a trace of shame, and got the job. Ten years on, at least one of them is
 making something around $300,000 a year, based entirely on his ability to
 smile and tell customers plausible lies.

So he's either a politician, a salesman, a lawyer, a counselor, a
manager, a thespian, or a venture capitalist. And maybe a few other
possibilities. Professional liars, all. :)

ChrisA
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-07-10 Thread Jean-Michel Pichavant


Steven D'Aprano wrote:

On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 11:29:24 +0200, Jean-Michel Pichavant wrote:

  

Why would you want to hire someone that knows something pointless as the
version where feature X has been introduced ? Just tell him that feature
X has been introducted in version Y, costless 2.5sec training. Don't you
want to hire someone that knows things you don't and benefit from each
others abilities, learning from each others, improving the company
global skill range ?



The reason for the question is to get some idea of how well the candidate 
actually knows Python. If you ask them questions that you don't know the 
answer to, how will you tell if they're right?


I certainly wouldn't disqualify a candidate if they didn't know what 
version introduced (say) decorators. If they said what's a decorator? 
or version 10, that would be a hint that they don't actually know much 
about Python. If they said I don't know, I'm still stuck on Python 2.3, 
they would get a point for honesty and lose a point for being way out of 
date. If they said version 2.3 or 2.5 (it's actually 2.4), well, that's 
close enough.


Of course, an acceptable answer would be buggered if I know, but if you 
give me a minute, I'll google it for you.



  
Must be a cultural thing. We don't question people experience that much 
here. They'll be challenged anyway during the trial period (6 months 
during which the contract can be cancelled anytime without any reason). 
Actually I think it would be considered quite rude to challenge someone 
with questions right after he told you he worked 5 years as technical 
leader on a software developped in python for instance.


I've never been asked nor did I asked to go into such technical details. 
Interviews are more about years of experience, projects, working with 
teams, carreer expectations, distance between home and workplace, 
willingness to work weekends when required.


I'm no saying one way is better than another. I'm making an observation 
on how different can be an interview from one location to another.


JM
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Re: Python Interview Questions

On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 02:59:15 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:

 On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 2:51 AM, Steven D'Aprano
 steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
 If only that were true. I know quite a few people who looked the
 interviewer straight in the eye and told the most bare-faced lies
 without a trace of shame, and got the job. Ten years on, at least one
 of them is making something around $300,000 a year, based entirely on
 his ability to smile and tell customers plausible lies.
 
 So he's either a politician, a salesman, a lawyer, a counselor, a
 manager, a thespian, or a venture capitalist. And maybe a few other
 possibilities. Professional liars, all. :)

Actually, he's a senior software developer for a major international 
software company whose name Might Seem familiar to you.

To be honest, I can't tell you too much more about his job, as I've made 
it a practice not to learn too many details.


-- 
Steven
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-07-10 Thread Mark Lawrence


On 10/07/2012 18:12, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:

On 10 Jul 2012 07:33:59 GMT, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info declaimed the following in
gmane.comp.python.general:



may not be capable of telling the difference between a cheese sandwich
and a box of hair -- and even the *good* interviewers are probably making


They are both containers holding samples of protein



Does the hair contain much more roughage?

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Mark Lawrence.



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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-07-10 Thread Demian Brecht

I also judge candidates on their beards 
(http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/06/beard-gallery/). If the beard's 
awesome enough, no questions needed. They're pro.
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-07-10 Thread Ian Kelly

On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 4:26 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber
wlfr...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
 On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 09:05:50 -0700, Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us
 declaimed the following in gmane.comp.python.general:

 As an example from today, if someone claimed to have 5+ years of Python
 experience, but didn't know that 'with' was standard in 2.6 (or at least
 the end of the 2.x cycle) I would be suspicious that they actually had
 the experience they claimed.


 From the 2.5 help file:
 
 3.4.9 With Statement Context Managers
 New in version 2.5.
 

In 2.5 the with statement requires a __future__ import, so can't be
considered standard.
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-07-10 Thread David Robinow

On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us wrote:
...

 Reminds me of a job posting a few years ago where the prospective employer
 wanted three plus years experience in some language, and that language had
 only been created a year and a half before.
 I saw several of those when Java was new.
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-07-10 Thread Rick Johnson

On Jul 10, 4:29 am, Jean-Michel Pichavant jeanmic...@sequans.com
wrote:
 Why would you want to hire someone that knows something pointless as the
 version where feature X has been introduced ? Just tell him that feature
 X has been introducted in version Y, costless 2.5sec training. Don't you
 want to hire someone that knows things you don't and benefit from each
 others abilities, learning from each others, improving the company
 global skill range ?

 JM

Ha! Intelligent people are scary to bosses. They want robots Jean.
Robots that are *just* intelligent enough to reduce their own work
load whist NOT intelligent enough to render them obsolete.
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-07-10 Thread Stefan Behnel

Mark Lawrence, 10.07.2012 11:42:
 I recall reading in a book in the local library
 of a manager that wouldn't employ people unless they were wearing a new
 pair of shoes.  Guess they didn't take many people on.

Managers tend to like wasting resources. Buying a new pair of shoes for
each job interview sounds reasonable once you have a salary well beyond
your own capabilities.

Stefan

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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-07-09 Thread yeryomin . igor

On Tuesday, 30 October 2007 21:24:04 UTC+2, Tim Chase  wrote:
  I have used Python for a couple of projects last year and
   I found it extremely useful. I could write two middle size
   projects in 2-3 months (part time). Right now I am a bit
   rusty and trying to catch up again with Python.
  
   I am now appearing for Job Interviews these days and I am
   wondering if anybody of you appeared for a Python
   Interview. Can you please share the questions you were
   asked. That will be great help to me.
 
 While I haven't interviewed precisely for Python, I've been
 on the other (interviewing) end and can offer a few of the
 sorts of things I ask.  I don't expect perfect answers to
 all of them, but they show me a range of what the
 interviewee knows.  I try and give a scattershot of
 questions from the following areas to try and narrow down
 where they fall in terms of pythonability, and then grill
 more deeply around the edges that I find.
 
 Basic Python:
 =
 - do they know a tuple/list/dict when they see it?
 
 - when to use list vs. tuple vs. dict. vs. set
 
 - can they use list comprehensions (and know when not to
abuse them? :)
 
 - can they use tuple unpacking for assignment?
 
 - string building...do they use += or do they build a list
and use .join() to recombine them efficiently
 
 - truth-value testing questions and observations (do they
write if x == True or do they just write if x)
 
 - basic file-processing (iterating over a file's lines)
 
 - basic understanding of exception handling
 
 Broader Basic Python:
 =
 - questions about the standard library (do you know if
there's a standard library for doing X?, or in which
library would you find [common functionality Y]?)  Most
of these are related to the more common libraries such as
os/os.path/sys/re/itertools
 
 - questions about iterators/generators
 
 - questions about map/reduce/sum/etc family of functions
 
 - questions about special methods (__foo__)
 
 More Advanced Python:
 =
 - can they manipulate functions as first-class objects
(Python makes it easy, but do they know how)
 
 - more detailed questions about the std. libraries (such as
datetime/email/csv/zipfile/networking/optparse/unittest)
 
 - questions about testing (unittests/doctests)
 
 - questions about docstrings vs. comments, and the Why of
them
 
 - more detailed questions about regular expressions
 
 - questions about mutability
 
 - keyword/list parameters and unpacked kwd args
 
 - questions about popular 3rd-party toolkits (BeautifulSoup,
pyparsing...mostly if they know about them and when to use
them, not so much about implementation details)
 
 - questions about monkey-patching
 
 - questions about PDB
 
 - questions about properties vs. getters/setters
 
 - questions about classmethods
 
 - questions about scope/name-resolution
 
 - use of lambda
 
 Python History:
 ===
 - decorators added in which version?
 
 - batteries included SQL-capible DB in which version?
 
 - the difference between class Foo and class Foo(object)
 
 - questions from import this about pythonic code
 
 Python Resources:
 =
 - what do they know about various Python web frameworks
(knowing a few names is usually good enough, though
knowledge about the frameworks is a nice plus) such as
Django, TurboGears, Zope, etc.
 
 - what do they know about various Python GUI frameworks and
the pros/cons of them (tkinter, wx, pykde, etc)
 
 - where do they go with Python related questions (c.l.p,
google, google-groups, etc)
 
 Other Process-releated things:
 ==
 - do they use revision control
(RCS/CVS/Subversion/Mercurial/Git...anything but VSS) and
know how to use it well
 
 - do they write automated tests for their code
 
 Touchy-feely things:
 
 - tabs vs. spaces, and their reasoning
 
 - reason for choosing Python
 
 - choice of editor/IDE
 
 Good luck with your interviewing and hope this helped,
 
 -tkc

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Re: Python Interview Questions

On 07/09/12 01:39, yeryomin.i...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Tuesday, 30 October 2007 21:24:04 UTC+2, Tim Chase  wrote:

yes, yes I did, almost 5 years ago. :-)

You didn't include any questions/comments on my email, so it's a bit
hard to respond.

 While I haven't interviewed precisely for Python, I've been
 on the other (interviewing) end and can offer a few of the
 sorts of things I ask. 
[snip]
 Python History:
 ===
 - decorators added in which version?

 - batteries included SQL-capible DB in which version?

I've long wanted to update my original post in this department to
include things like the with statement as well as my reasoning.
Some of our deployments were stuck on earlier versions (currently
our oldest is a 2.4 deployment that is merrily chugging along,
somewhat stuck due to an external binary dependency for which terms
changed between versions).  At the time I wrote that, we had some
2.2 and 2.3 code in production that couldn't use decorators, and
sqlite wasn't officially added until 2.5 (IIRC).   Now that
everything is at least 2.4, code can now use decorators freely.

I'd also likely include questions about integer division and other
stuff added in 3.x (such as the default new-class behavior).

So my main motivation was to make sure applicants knew that, in some
of our environments, certain features might not be available.  Not
that I wanted to hire a Python historian.

 Other Process-releated things:
 ==
 - do they use revision control
(RCS/CVS/Subversion/Mercurial/Git...anything but VSS) and
know how to use it well

 - do they write automated tests for their code

Don't let the importance of these two escape.  It's SOOO easy to
grab any of the freely available VCS tools and learn the ropes, or
to write some test code.  Failure to do so just seems like
negligence these days.

-tkc





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Re: Python Interview Questions

In article 3e0ef383-9615-4b4d-89c1-e55199711...@googlegroups.com,
 yeryomin.i...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Tuesday, 30 October 2007 21:24:04 UTC+2, Tim Chase  wrote:

  - more detailed questions about the std. libraries (such as
 datetime/email/csv/zipfile/networking/optparse/unittest)

You need to be careful when you ask questions like this.  I would expect 
somebody to be aware of those and have a high-level understanding of 
what they do, but certainly not remember the details of the exact syntax 
and argument order.  Even with stuff I use everyday (like unittest and 
datetime), I have a browser open to the reference manual most of the 
time.

  - questions about PDB

Heh.  I would answer that with, Python Debugger?  I've never used it.

  Python History:
  ===
  - decorators added in which version?
  
  - batteries included SQL-capible DB in which version?
  
  - the difference between class Foo and class Foo(object)
  
  - questions from import this about pythonic code

With the exception of the question about new-style classes, these are 
silly questions.  I was around when both decorators and sqlite3 were 
added.  I couldn't possible tell you when to any precision better than 
2 dot something.  As for the zen of python, it's cute, and a piece of 
python folklore, but hardly an essential part of being a good python p
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Re: Python Interview Questions

On 07/09/12 08:25, Roy Smith wrote:
 On Tuesday, 30 October 2007 21:24:04 UTC+2, Tim Chase  wrote:
 
 - more detailed questions about the std. libraries (such as
datetime/email/csv/zipfile/networking/optparse/unittest)
 
 You need to be careful when you ask questions like this.  I would expect 
 somebody to be aware of those and have a high-level understanding of 
 what they do, but certainly not remember the details of the exact syntax 
 and argument order.  Even with stuff I use everyday (like unittest and 
 datetime), I have a browser open to the reference manual most of the 
 time.

Yeah, the aim isn't to grill them on the minutia, but to get a
feeling that they know the basics.  The zipfile module offers a
ZipFile object for reading/writing zip files with or without
compression.  The CSV file allows for reading/writing CSV files with
definable delimiters and quoting/escaping.  Etc.


 - questions about PDB
 
 Heh.  I would answer that with, Python Debugger?  I've never used it.

The ability to know off the top of your head that it's the Python
Debugger is more than enough :-)  That's just first-order
ignorance:  you know what you don't know and can spend a few minutes
reading up on it if you need it.  The second[or higher]-order
ignorance of not knowing what pdb is (or, if you need more powerful
debugging, how to do it) is sign the person hasn't been programming
in Python much.

 Python History:
 ===
 - decorators added in which version?

 - batteries included SQL-capible DB in which version?

 - the difference between class Foo and class Foo(object)

 - questions from import this about pythonic code
 
 With the exception of the question about new-style classes, these are 
 silly questions.  I was around when both decorators and sqlite3 were 
 added.  I couldn't possible tell you when to any precision better than 
 2 dot something. 

I'd even be satisfied if a person just knew that such features
weren't there all along and might need to be worked around for older
deployments.

 As for the zen of python, it's cute, and a piece of python
 folklore, but hardly an essential part of being a good python p

[Ed: something appears to have gotten truncated there]  Yeah, it's
more about a person being sufficiently steeped in python to know
bits and pieces of the zen, and their ability to recognize/create
pythonic code.  I've seen enough Java-written-in-Python to know what
I don't want :-)

-tkc


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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-07-09 Thread Rick Johnson

On Jul 9, 12:40 pm, Tim Chase python.l...@tim.thechases.com wrote:
 The second[or higher]-order
 ignorance of not knowing what pdb is (or, if you need more powerful
 debugging, how to do it) is sign the person hasn't been programming
 in Python much.

So guru knowledge of pdb is prerequisite to being accepted as a
Pythonista? I find that ridiculous since *real* programmers don't use
debuggers anyway.

 [Ed: something appears to have gotten truncated there]  Yeah, it's
 more about a person being sufficiently steeped in python to know
 bits and pieces of the zen, and their ability to recognize/create
 pythonic code.  I've seen enough Java-written-in-Python to know what
 I don't want :-)

I know you are a member of the group who has an aversion to strict OOP
paradigm but is this a justified aversion, or just fear of OOP due to
static evolution? Look, i don't like java's strict approach either,
however, i do not have an aversion to OOP.

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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-07-09 Thread Demian Brecht

On Monday, 9 July 2012 10:40:59 UTC-7, Tim Chase  wrote:
 On 07/09/12 08:25, Roy Smith wrote:
  On Tuesday, 30 October 2007 21:24:04 UTC+2, Tim Chase  wrote:
  
  - more detailed questions about the std. libraries (such as
 datetime/email/csv/zipfile/networking/optparse/unittest)
  
  You need to be careful when you ask questions like this.  I would expect 
  somebody to be aware of those and have a high-level understanding of 
  what they do, but certainly not remember the details of the exact syntax 
  and argument order.  Even with stuff I use everyday (like unittest and 
  datetime), I have a browser open to the reference manual most of the 
  time.
 
 Yeah, the aim isn't to grill them on the minutia, but to get a
 feeling that they know the basics.  The zipfile module offers a
 ZipFile object for reading/writing zip files with or without
 compression.  The CSV file allows for reading/writing CSV files with
 definable delimiters and quoting/escaping.  Etc.
 
 
  - questions about PDB
  
  Heh.  I would answer that with, Python Debugger?  I've never used it.
 
 The ability to know off the top of your head that it's the Python
 Debugger is more than enough :-)  That's just first-order
 ignorance:  you know what you don't know and can spend a few minutes
 reading up on it if you need it.  The second[or higher]-order
 ignorance of not knowing what pdb is (or, if you need more powerful
 debugging, how to do it) is sign the person hasn't been programming
 in Python much.
 
  Python History:
  ===
  - decorators added in which version?
 
  - batteries included SQL-capible DB in which version?
 
  - the difference between class Foo and class Foo(object)
 
  - questions from import this about pythonic code
  
  With the exception of the question about new-style classes, these are 
  silly questions.  I was around when both decorators and sqlite3 were 
  added.  I couldn't possible tell you when to any precision better than 
  2 dot something. 
 
 I'd even be satisfied if a person just knew that such features
 weren't there all along and might need to be worked around for older
 deployments.
 
  As for the zen of python, it's cute, and a piece of python
  folklore, but hardly an essential part of being a good python p
 
 [Ed: something appears to have gotten truncated there]  Yeah, it's
 more about a person being sufficiently steeped in python to know
 bits and pieces of the zen, and their ability to recognize/create
 pythonic code.  I've seen enough Java-written-in-Python to know what
 I don't want :-)
 
 -tkc

Definitely appreciate your approach, I've asked similar questions when 
interviewing.

I also usually like to ask what a candidate likes and dislikes about Python, 
hoping for the GIL to creep up, along with an explanation as to what it is, 
implementations that don't have it along with methods of getting around the 
lock (although that would be a fairly advanced topic IMHO). If it doesn't come 
up, sometimes I'll pop it in depending on their level of experience.
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-07-09 Thread Peter

One of my favourite questions when interviewing - and it was 100% reliable :-) 
- what are your hobbies?

If the answer included programming then they were hired, if not, then they went 
to the B list.

In my experience, anybody who is really interested in programming will have it 
as a hobby (and is keen to learn even if they don't currently have the 
knowledge you require) - otherwise it is just a job. Every job has a learning 
curve - whether it is just the particular domain or even a new language, the 
individual who sees programming as more than a job will come up to speed much 
faster and be more productive in both the short and long term.

Every programmer I have ever hired using this criteria worked out well.
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-07-09 Thread Devin Jeanpierre

On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 5:22 PM, Peter peter.milli...@gmail.com wrote:
 One of my favourite questions when interviewing - and it was 100% reliable 
 :-) - what are your hobbies?
 If the answer included programming then they were hired, if not, then they 
 went to the B list.

Woe is the poor college grad, who wants to appear like a well-rounded
individual and lists capoeira and gardening, instead.

-- Devin
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-07-09 Thread Cameron Simpson

On 09Jul2012 11:44, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote:
| On Jul 9, 12:40 pm, Tim Chase python.l...@tim.thechases.com wrote:
|  The second[or higher]-order
|  ignorance of not knowing what pdb is (or, if you need more powerful
|  debugging, how to do it) is sign the person hasn't been programming
|  in Python much.
| 
| So guru knowledge of pdb is prerequisite to being accepted as a
| Pythonista? I find that ridiculous since *real* programmers don't use
| debuggers anyway.

You've misread him. He's saying not knowing what PDB is and what it may
be used for is a sign of low experience. Whether one uses it or not
isn't what he's measuring, it's whether one knows what it is for and how
it may be used.

|  [...]  I've seen enough Java-written-in-Python to know what
|  I don't want :-)
| 
| I know you are a member of the group who has an aversion to strict OOP
| paradigm but is this a justified aversion, or just fear of OOP due to
| static evolution? Look, i don't like java's strict approach either,
| however, i do not have an aversion to OOP.

More misreading. Java-written-in-Python (and its variants) means non-python
code written in python, in this case from someone with a strong (or
rigid) Java background who is not adept with Python idioms. It has
nothing to do with OOP one way or the other. Surely we've all seen
(and doubtless written) clumsy python code; this is an example.

Cheers,
-- 
Cameron Simpson c...@zip.com.au

A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures.   - Daniel Webster
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Re: Python Interview Questions

In article mailman.1959.1341868974.4697.python-l...@python.org,
 Peter peter.milli...@gmail.com wrote:

 One of my favourite questions when interviewing - and it was 100% reliable 
 :-) - what are your hobbies?

My hobby happens to be gardening, for which I don't expect to be paid.
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-07-09 Thread Cameron Simpson

On 09Jul2012 18:53, Devin Jeanpierre jeanpierr...@gmail.com wrote:
| On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 5:22 PM, Peter peter.milli...@gmail.com wrote:
|  One of my favourite questions when interviewing - and it was 100% reliable 
:-) - what are your hobbies?
|  If the answer included programming then they were hired, if not, then they 
went to the B list.
| 
| Woe is the poor college grad, who wants to appear like a well-rounded
| individual and lists capoeira and gardening, instead.

A new word! A quick google search confused me as to whether this was
martial art or a form of dance. The GF suggested it was both. Having
seen this:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8xxgFpK-NM

I am now convinced :-)
-- 
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Hit the button Chewie!  - Han Solo
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-07-09 Thread Christian Heimes

Am 09.07.2012 23:22, schrieb Peter:
 One of my favourite questions when interviewing - and it was 100% reliable 
 :-) - what are your hobbies?
 
 If the answer included programming then they were hired, if not, then they 
 went to the B list.

on the contrary! When a potential candidate has computer stuff as her
main hobby then she goes on the no-hire list. I prefer people that can
cope with stress and pressure as well as people who can think outside
the box. When you work with computers all day at work *and* at home then
you are unable to shut off mentally.

Gardening is great hobbies for a developer. You need to be patient,
reliable and provide constantly good work to grow your own vegetables.

Christian

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Re: Python Interview Questions

On 07/09/12 17:53, Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
 One of my favourite questions when interviewing - and it was
 100% reliable :-) - what are your hobbies? If the answer
 included programming then they were hired, if not, then they
 went to the B list.
 
 Woe is the poor college grad, who wants to appear like a
 well-rounded individual and lists capoeira and gardening,
 instead.

The problem is the instead...if your list of hobbies includes
capoeira and gardening in addition to programming, you're at least
considered. :-)

-tkc


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Re: Python Interview Questions

On 07/09/12 18:12, Cameron Simpson wrote:
 On 09Jul2012 18:53, Devin Jeanpierre jeanpierr...@gmail.com wrote:
 | On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 5:22 PM, Peter peter.milli...@gmail.com wrote:
 |  One of my favourite questions when interviewing - and it was 100% 
 reliable :-) - what are your hobbies?
 |  If the answer included programming then they were hired, if not, then 
 they went to the B list.
 | 
 | Woe is the poor college grad, who wants to appear like a well-rounded
 | individual and lists capoeira and gardening, instead.
 
 A new word! A quick google search confused me as to whether this was
 martial art or a form of dance. The GF suggested it was both.

You were unfamiliar with the word gardening and unsure whether it
was a martial art or a form of dance?

http://groovewitch.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/ninja-garden-gnome-1.jpeg

«grins, ducks  runs»

-tkc



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Re: Python Interview Questions

In article mailman.1965.1341876813.4697.python-l...@python.org,
 Christian Heimes li...@cheimes.de wrote:

 Am 09.07.2012 23:22, schrieb Peter:
  One of my favourite questions when interviewing - and it was 100% reliable 
  :-) - what are your hobbies?
  
  If the answer included programming then they were hired, if not, then they 
  went to the B list.
 
 on the contrary! When a potential candidate has computer stuff as her
 main hobby then she goes on the no-hire list.

I think this points out the silliness of these kinds of questions.  
There is no right answer.  More to the point, the interviewee, when 
he/she gets one of these questions, probably goes into hyper-analysis 
mode: Now, just what did he mean by that question?  He's likely to 
give the answer he thinks you want to hear.

Do you really want to make hire/no-hire decisions based on somebody's 
ability to second-guess what you probably wanted to hear when you asked 
a pointless question?
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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-07-09 Thread Emile van Sebille


On 7/9/2012 2:22 PM Peter said...

One of my favourite questions when interviewing - and it was 100% reliable :-) - 
what are your hobbies?

If the answer included programming then they were hired, if not, then they went to the 
B list.

In my experience, anybody who is really interested in programming will have it as a hobby (and is 
keen to learn even if they don't currently have the knowledge you require) - otherwise it is 
just a job. Every job has a learning curve - whether it is just the particular domain 
or even a new language, the individual who sees programming as more than a job will 
come up to speed much faster and be more productive in both the short and long term.

Every programmer I have ever hired using this criteria worked out well.



Hence the age bias.

Personally, I'm quite happy now that I've divorced my hobby from my 
career.  And my family likes me better too.


Emile





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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-07-09 Thread Christian Heimes

Am 10.07.2012 01:40, schrieb Roy Smith:
 Do you really want to make hire/no-hire decisions based on somebody's 
 ability to second-guess what you probably wanted to hear when you asked 
 a pointless question?

I don't want her/him to second-guess at all. I expect a straight and
honest answer. Second-guessing leads to cheating and lying which doesn't
work in the long run.

I don't like to disclose my personal life is also a good answer as it
shows that the candidate self-confidence and doesn't sell privacy for a job.


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Re: Python Interview Questions

2012-07-09 Thread dncarac

Tim,

I've read your list and with one exception it all looks very reasonable.  (As 
an hobbiest, I'm amazed at just how much I have picked up.)

The set of questions I'm not sure I understand is the 'What version did ... 
appear?' questions.  This, to me, doesn't seem to indicate any programming 
experience or expertise.  A question asking 'Do you understand different 
versions?' and 'How would you find out whether a particular version can do a 
particular thing?'  (i.e. which version can you use on GAE?) would seem to give 
good information.  'How do decorators work?' would seem to give good 
information.

So my question is: what information are you looking for by asking which version 
introduced decorators?

With respect,

Den
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Re: Python Interview Questions

On 07/09/12 19:01, dnca...@gmail.com wrote:
 The set of questions I'm not sure I understand is the 'What
 version did ... appear?' questions.  This, to me, doesn't seem to
 indicate any programming experience or expertise.  A question
 asking 'Do you understand different versions?' and 'How would you
 find out whether a particular version can do a particular thing?'
 (i.e. which version can you use on GAE?) would seem to give good
 information.

The reason *I* ask them is that we have some 2.4 installations
(where things like with aren't available) and at the time I typed
up the list, there was some earlier 2.2 and 2.3 code out there where
decorators or sqlite[*] didn't work.

So I guess it's a bit of a how long have they been programming in
python experience aspect.  Programmers that have been around a
while often remember the frustration of $FEATURE_LACK and then the
relief of a much better way to do it.  The functionality of
decorators was around far earlier, but the clean syntactic sugar
made it much nicer to use.  The sqlite/sqlite3 libraries were
around, but you had to install them yourself (whether from source, a
custom installer, or your package manager).

As mentioned in another branch of this thread, I don't require
python historians, but do prefer folks that know which features to
check availability for deployment.

-tkc

[*] without installing an add-on







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Re: Python Interview Questions

In article mailman.1972.1341879526.4697.python-l...@python.org,
 Tim Chase python.l...@tim.thechases.com wrote:

 As mentioned in another branch of this thread, I don't require
 python historians, but do prefer folks that know which features to
 check availability for deployment.

Heh.  Tell me, when did strings get methods? :-)
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Re: Python Interview Questions