Re: Python education survey
Why do people use pretty when we already have words that carry more specific meaning? Because they are lazy! And laziness begets stupidity. No, that would be because they are not autistic. Most people like having a repertoire of words with subtly different meanings in their natural language, because there is a demand for this semantic richness. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 04:33:45 -0800, Eelco wrote: Why do people use pretty when we already have words that carry more specific meaning? Because they are lazy! And laziness begets stupidity. No, that would be because they are not autistic. Most people like having a repertoire of words with subtly different meanings in their natural language, because there is a demand for this semantic richness. +1 QOTW -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On 2012-01-01, Alexander Kapps alex.ka...@web.de wrote: On 01.01.2012 03:36, Grant Edwards wrote: On 2011-12-31, Alexander Kappsalex.ka...@web.de wrote: On 31.12.2011 19:23, Roy Smith wrote: Why do I waste my time reading your pretentious self-important nonsense? http://xkcd.com/386/ ;) Why ROFLMAO when double-plus funny works just as well? xkcd/386 has been the excuse for replying to RR for ages and I still don't understand why he gets that much advertence. Charity? Sympathy for the lone and broken? Sadly, RR's post are often (in the supposed words of Wolfgang Pauli) not even wrong. I'm sure, RR is now jumping up high in rapture for being compared to high-profile scientist geniuses. I'm not comparing RR to Pauli. I'm quoting somethin Pauli said when criticising something that was so confusing and ill conceived that it wasn't even wrong. -- Grant -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Dec 31 2011, 11:12 pm, Dominic Binks dbi...@codeaurora.org wrote: I doubt you could validate or invalidate a word. A word is, there is no validation necessary. You could potentially try to validate it's use but again that's not in your power. Usage begets validation. By using words in a manner that is improper we validate the continued existence of stupidity. I think you need to go back to school to understand what a dictionary is. (FYI, a dictionary codifies usage, not the other way around.) So there are no standards by which a dictionary must meet? The sheeple should just read and accept any garage that the dictionary writers dictate? Sadly, a dictionary has the power to give legitimacy to a word. When we expand the definitions of words like pretty and reduce those definitions to the absurd AND then include those absurd definitions in a dictionary NOW we have just given lunacy the justification it so desires. Perhaps you mean, because more precise words or phrases for these uses exist? By your token 'work' should refer to physical activity which is not appropriate in this context and probably 'fine' should refer to a payment that is made having broken some rule or regulation thus leading to monetary reparation. Yes, i used the word work improperly here. Just another example of the corrupting influence of garage verbiage. Thanks for bring this to my attention! Why would you use a word like hard (which describes the physical properties of a tangible object), Because many words have more than one meaning and their context describes the meaning. For example 'Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana'. I know you can parse and understand that but the sentences are precisely alike, yet completely different. And that is just my point: by adopting so many meanings of a word that are dependent on context, we obfuscate our communication. rr said: Supposed to - required|expected probably 'intended' would be better here since 'supposed to' indicates that you should do this, but it is not required (pretty much the opposite for your given translation). Actually, no. Consider this sentence: We are supposed to--[required to|expected] follow the law, but sometimes i just cannot get used to it! rr said: Use to - accustomed|acquainted Sorry to be picky, but use to refers to application as in When I say 'idiot', in this context 'idiot' I use to mean 'person who cannot speak English as it is commonly used'. Completely wrong! Consider this: I USED TO wear a tutu however i just never could get USE TO the ridicule from others rr said: Right (OOC) - Correct While I agree 'right' can be annoying it's usage as in 'you are correct' can be traced back to 1588, I think we're going to have to allow for it's usage in 2011 So just because people have been using a word out of context we should just continue? Why? rr said: Hard (OOC) - Difficult Phrases to mean 'difficult' or 'tough' come from at least 1886 so again, it's use in this context is hardly new. New or not, it's wrong! rr said: Pretty (OOC) - very Pretty on it's own doesn't mean very at all. (God knows where you got that idea from.) When combined with another adjective, such as hard, pretty does enhance the adjective. However, pretty difficult is not the same as very difficult. Pretty, in this context would probably be better defined as 'somewhat' or 'quite'. (Oh and it's use in this context can be traced back to 1565.) Pretty is by far the most ubiquitous use of a word in a manner that is out of context. If you don't believe me, grep this group for all the occurrences of the word pretty, and see if ANY instances of this word are used to describe the pleasurable physical attributes of a tangible object. I would safely say that 99% are used out of context. :-( Why do people use pretty when we already have words that carry more specific meaning? Because they are lazy! And laziness begets stupidity. Do any of you remember the Unicode thread from way back? If so, you will remember all the well known trolls who ranted about how the words you use shape the way your brain processes information. Choosing the easy way out is detrimental to your future evolution. Stop propagating your stupidity memes and use your F'in brain for once! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On 1/2/2012 9:27 PM, Rick Johnson wrote: On Dec 31 2011, 11:12 pm, Dominic Binksdbi...@codeaurora.org wrote: I doubt you could validate or invalidate a word. A word is, there is no ... taken off list -- Dominic Binks: dbi...@codeaurora.org Employee of Qualcomm Innovation Center, Inc. Qualcomm Innovation Center, Inc. is a member of Code Aurora Forum -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On 1/3/2012 0:27, Rick Johnson wrote: Yes, i used the word work improperly here. Just another example of the corrupting influence of garage verbiage. Thanks for bring this to my attention! Diction would be a far better word than verbiage there. Evan signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On 2011-12-28, Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote: On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 18:42:05 -0800, Rick Johnson wrote: I don't care what ANY dictionary says. Much less a world dictionary. I don't validate or invalidate a word based on some phony baloney group of pseudo intellectuals who decided one to day that writing a dictionary might be cool. I am against these words and phrases because we already have words that work just fine. Why rock the boat? Why do you say rock when the word shake is just as good? Why do you say boat when we already have ship? Why do you say pseudo intellectuals when you could say fake intellectuals? Why do I waste my time reading your pretentious self-important nonsense? http://xkcd.com/386/ ;) -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Not SENSUOUS ... only at FROLICSOME ... and in gmail.comneed of DENTAL WORK ... in PAIN!!! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
In article jdnd4v$6mg$1...@reader1.panix.com, Grant Edwards invalid@invalid.invalid wrote: On 2011-12-28, Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote: On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 18:42:05 -0800, Rick Johnson wrote: I don't care what ANY dictionary says. Much less a world dictionary. I don't validate or invalidate a word based on some phony baloney group of pseudo intellectuals who decided one to day that writing a dictionary might be cool. I am against these words and phrases because we already have words that work just fine. Why rock the boat? Why do you say rock when the word shake is just as good? Why do you say boat when we already have ship? Why do you say pseudo intellectuals when you could say fake intellectuals? Why do I waste my time reading your pretentious self-important nonsense? http://xkcd.com/386/ ;) Why ROFLMAO when double-plus funny works just as well? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On 31.12.2011 19:23, Roy Smith wrote: Why do I waste my time reading your pretentious self-important nonsense? http://xkcd.com/386/ ;) Why ROFLMAO when double-plus funny works just as well? xkcd/386 has been the excuse for replying to RR for ages and I still don't understand why he gets that much advertence. Charity? Sympathy for the lone and broken? FWIW, it undermines all my attempts to block him. Sigh. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On 2011-12-31, Alexander Kapps alex.ka...@web.de wrote: On 31.12.2011 19:23, Roy Smith wrote: Why do I waste my time reading your pretentious self-important nonsense? http://xkcd.com/386/ ;) Why ROFLMAO when double-plus funny works just as well? xkcd/386 has been the excuse for replying to RR for ages and I still don't understand why he gets that much advertence. Charity? Sympathy for the lone and broken? Sadly, RR's post are often (in the supposed words of Wolfgang Pauli) not even wrong. -- Grant -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On 01.01.2012 03:36, Grant Edwards wrote: On 2011-12-31, Alexander Kappsalex.ka...@web.de wrote: On 31.12.2011 19:23, Roy Smith wrote: Why do I waste my time reading your pretentious self-important nonsense? http://xkcd.com/386/ ;) Why ROFLMAO when double-plus funny works just as well? xkcd/386 has been the excuse for replying to RR for ages and I still don't understand why he gets that much advertence. Charity? Sympathy for the lone and broken? Sadly, RR's post are often (in the supposed words of Wolfgang Pauli) not even wrong. I'm sure, RR is now jumping up high in rapture for being compared to high-profile scientist geniuses. Move fuel for his self-affirmation. I'll give my entire kingdom (or important body-parts, in case my kingdom isn't enough) if people would just understand that perfection(ists) is/are *the most* dangerous thing possible. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On 12/27/2011 6:42 PM, Rick Johnson wrote: On Dec 27, 8:21 pm, Tim Chasepython.l...@tim.thechases.com wrote: I'm glad you're open to learning more about English as used to is perfectly acceptable according to the World English Dictionary[1] [...] May you be found better for learning and come to give others the benefit of the doubt. I don't care what ANY dictionary says. Much less a world dictionary. (Shouldn't this be |||world|||?) I don't validate or invalidate a word based on some phony baloney I doubt you could validate or invalidate a word. A word is, there is no validation necessary. You could potentially try to validate it's use but again that's not in your power. group of pseudo intellectuals who decided one to day that writing a dictionary might be cool. I think you need to go back to school to understand what a dictionary is. (FYI, a dictionary codifies usage, not the other way around.) I am against these words and phrases I think you mean these words and phrases being used in this way - the words and phrases themselves are just that. They imply no meaning unless used in some kind of context. because we already have words that work just fine. Why rock the boat? Perhaps you mean, because more precise words or phrases for these uses exist? By your token 'work' should refer to physical activity which is not appropriate in this context and probably 'fine' should refer to a payment that is made having broken some rule or regulation thus leading to monetary reparation. I think, herein lies the problem - abject denial of all evidence to the contrary simply because it disagrees with your limited point of view. Why would you use a word like hard (which describes the physical properties of a tangible object), Because many words have more than one meaning and their context describes the meaning. For example 'Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana'. I know you can parse and understand that but the sentences are precisely alike, yet completely different. to describe how difficult a task may be? Because it's a perfectly legitimate thing to do. Many problems are described as 'HARD' in technical documentation when examining their complexity. I don't always like the terms used for things, but at least let's be consistent in our usage. If you insist on this lunacy, then why not use soft to describe how easy a task may be? Seems ridiculous now, huh? Soft is used in this context - as in choosing the soft option - i.e. the easy way out. And your problem is, precisely? Garbage Verbiage Translator: For Garbage Verbiage, read 'common English' Used to - previously|before Though used to is perfect acceptable in any English speaking country. Supposed to - required|expected probably 'intended' would be better here since 'supposed to' indicates that you should do this, but it is not required (pretty much the opposite for your given translation). Use to - accustomed|acquainted Sorry to be picky, but use to refers to application as in When I say 'idiot', in this context 'idiot' I use to mean 'person who cannot speak English as it is commonly used'., not accustomed|acquainted. In the example you give, it's probably mistyped, maybe by a non-native English speaker. (oh bother, I just used and ' to denote separate spoken phrases, maybe I should use ||| instead.) For what it's worth in English (i.e. British, the language I was brought up to speak) we say, for example: * get on/off a bus * get up in the morning * get down to some music * get around an obstacle * get over a broken relationship * get back to our previous place in a story * get through a difficult time/bush * get into a really good book * get about town * put up our Christmas lights and put down an idiot that doesn't understand that English has lots of compound verbs that are not poorly written, just commonly used and understood. Right (OOC) - Correct While I agree 'right' can be annoying it's usage as in 'you are correct' can be traced back to 1588, I think we're going to have to allow for it's usage in 2011 (very nearly 2012 for me and definitely 2012 for anyone east of New York City). Hard (OOC) - Difficult Phrases to mean 'difficult' or 'tough' come from at least 1886 so again, it's use in this context is hardly new. (And remember Charles Dickens' book Hard Times uses 'hard' to mean difficult not physically solid.) In fact looking into this a little more carefully, hard of hearing maintains the now largely obsolete meaning of hard from Middle English to mean have difficult doing something. I don't really think we can claim it's usage is wrong. Pretty (OOC) - very Pretty on it's own doesn't mean very at all. (God knows where you got that idea from.) When combined with another adjective, such as hard, pretty does enhance the adjective. However, pretty difficult is not the same as very difficult. Pretty, in this context would
Re: Python education survey
On 12/31/2011 1:06 PM, Alexander Kapps wrote: xkcd/386 has been the excuse for replying to RR for ages and I still don't understand why he gets that much advertence. Charity? Sympathy for the lone and broken? FWIW, it undermines all my attempts to block him. Sigh. Do what I do: laugh at the joke. He's a troll and the posts are jokes. Personally, I enjoy his posts; the silliness is good for a laugh. Once you stop taking it seriously, it goes from irritation to entertainment. -- CPython 3.2.2 | Windows NT 6.1.7601.17640 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 4:12 PM, Dominic Binks dbi...@codeaurora.org wrote: While I agree 'right' can be annoying it's usage as in 'you are correct' can be traced back to 1588, I think we're going to have to allow for it's usage in 2011 (very nearly 2012 for me and definitely 2012 for anyone east of New York City). And I am right, And you are right, And everything is quite correct! -- http://math.boisestate.edu/gas/mikado/webopera/mk103.html Context matters, words have multiple meanings. Can we agree on this point and move on? Otherwise, we're still going to be arguing this come 2013... ChrisA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Dec 28, 2:56 am, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote: On Dec 27, 3:44 pm, Eelco hoogendoorn.ee...@gmail.com wrote: Despite the fact that you mis-attributed that quote to me, im going to be a little bit offended in the name of its actual author anyway. Thats a lot of words to waste on your linguistic preferences. Personally, I reserve the right to botch my non-native languages as much as I please. I hope you're just joking a bit because i have little respect for those who refuse to better themselves. If you are learning English as a second language then you have a legitimacy excuse, but at some point that excuse just becomes a lie. In any case, i apologize for mis- quoting you. Yes, I was joking a bit; I learned my english primarily on programming boards, and im proud to say it rivals that of a majority of native speakers (low bar to beat, true). Furthermore, you are free to direct criticism at my writing or that of anyone else, but I must say I dont much care to hear it. A language is learned by using it, in reading, writing or speech; not by grammar nazis, or style nazis for that matter. Im here to discuss issues related to python, and anyone who manages to make himself understood is welcome to do so, as far as I am concerned. Im much more worried whether they have something interesting to contribute to the actual discussion. Not getting stuck picking nits, fighting personal feuds or getting dragged into the swamp by trolls; those are the real challenges, in my opinion. If you are insistent on bettering yourself; there is half a dozen other languages we could continue the conversation in. Your marginal gain per sentence read and written might be much larger there than in english. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Dec 27, 6:59 am, Carl Smith carl.in...@gmail.com wrote: On Dec 20, 10:58 am, Andrea Crotti andrea.crott...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/20/2011 03:51 AM, Raymond Hettinger wrote: Do you use IDLE when teaching Python? If not, what is the tool of choice? Students may not be experienced with the command-line and may be running Windows, Linux, or Macs. Ideally, the tool or IDE will be easy to install and configure (startup directory, path, associated with a particular version of Python etc). Though an Emacs user myself, I've been teaching with IDLE because it's free; it runs on multiple OSes, it has tooltips and code colorization and easy indent/dedent/comment/uncomment commands, it has tab completion; it allows easy editing at the interactive prompt; it has an easy run-script command (F5); it has direct access to source code (File OpenModule) and a class browser (Cntl+B). On the downside, some python distros aren't built with the requisite Tcl/Tk support; some distros like the Mac OS ship with a broken Tcl/Tk so users have to install a fix to that as well; and IDLE sometimes just freezes for no reason. It also doesn't have an easy way to specify the startup directory. If your goal is to quickly get new users up and running in Python, what IDE or editor do you recommend? Raymond I think ipython and a good editor gives a much nicer experience than IDLE, which I actually almost never used, and for everything else there is python and python-mode. New users however can be pointed to something like PyCharm or Eclipse+PyDev if they are more familiar to IDEs.. I agree; IPython is a excellent choice. You have a much more powerful interactive Python experience, with all the features you need from an IDE. You can use any editor (VIM) and you can also readily hack IPython to death. I think the fact that anyone with basic programming skills can substantially enhance their console is a big winner in CS education. It gives students something they personally value to work on, it's a place to store all their little bits of code and actually benefit from them in real life. I've never met a programmer that got familiar with IPython and then went on to stop using it. It should be included in the standard library and used as the default Python interactive environment. The last line of my .bashrc file: ipython3 Youve got one here. I like IPython a lot, but it quite rarely enters into my workflow. While I agree that a good interactive python console is a good way to get your feet wet with programming, I also strongly feel that a more comprehensive programming environment should be introduced to students. That includes opening and editing files, syntax highlighting, and code completion. And painless installation. There are no lightweight editors that provide all this functionality in conjuction with Ipython*. So I prefer to work the other way around; use something like pycharm, and open an IPython interactive session within it. *Your suggestion of VIM is especially objectionable. Though I am sure it is a great tool to you, the subject here is beginner education. Just because it is a good tool for you, does not make it a good tool for a beginner. IPython bundled with a lightweight but function-rich and non-hacker- but-WYSIWYG editor would be a great choice. But until that comes around, pycharm it is for me. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Dec 27, 12:14 am, Carl Smith carl.in...@gmail.com wrote: Do people seriously use IDLE? I thought it was just there for scratchers, like turtle. I know for a fact that many folks use IDLE, even some rather well known folks around here. The fact is, more people use IDLE than admit to using IDLE. Of course, out of respect, i will not mention their names myself. Hopefully they will chime in..? There is a stigma in this community towards IDLE. I am not sure exactly how it started, or on what logic (or lack thereof) it is based, but the stigma exists no doubt. I believe it may be just an extension of the TCL/TK stigma (since IDLE is coded using Tkinter). My logic is this: Including an IDE in the stdlib may have been a bad idea (although i understand and support Guido's original vision for IDLE). But since we do have it, we need to either MAINTAIN the package or REMOVE it. We cannot just stick our heads in the sand and ignore the elephant in the chicken coop. It's bad enough to bloat ANY stdlib with seldom used modules, but i dare say, it's far worse to bloat a library with seldom used modules that are poorly maintained! Every module in Python's stdlib is a testament to the skill and professionalism of this community as a whole. When a module looks or works badly, we ALL look and work badly. It's no big secret to anyone in this community that both Tkinter and IDLE are the red headed step children of Pythons stdlib. Very few people speak kindly of either package. I believe GvR still believes in the merits of both packages (psst: batteries included!) but he finds himself at odds with the elite at pydev. Hmm, Maybe he DOES want to remove them but fears loosing face...FYI: Guido IS is the original author of both Tkinter and IDLE... it was HIS idea after all. However, it is high time to re-ignite the original vision and form these packages into something we can be proud of -- OR -- cut our losses and remove them forever. This indecisiveness, collective bickering, and lack of true leadership is shameful. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
-- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On 12/28/2011 03:37 AM, Rick Johnson wrote: My logic is this: Including an IDE in the stdlib may have been a bad idea (although i understand and support Guido's original vision for IDLE). But since we do have it, we need to either MAINTAIN the package or REMOVE it. We cannot just stick our heads in the sand and ignore the elephant in the chicken coop. It's bad enough to bloat ANY stdlib with seldom used modules, but i dare say, it's far worse to bloat a library with seldom used modules that are poorly maintained! Every module in Python's stdlib is a testament to the skill and professionalism of this community as a whole. When a module looks or works badly, we ALL look and work badly. AFAICS, Python has a pretty good reputation even outside Python community. I haven't seen anyone looks at Python badly because of IDLE. It's no big secret to anyone in this community that both Tkinter and IDLE are the red headed step children of Pythons stdlib. Very few people speak kindly of either package. I believe GvR still believes in the merits of both packages (psst: batteries included!) but he finds himself at odds with the elite at pydev. Hmm, Maybe he DOES want to remove them but fears loosing face...FYI: Guido IS is the original author of both Tkinter and IDLE... it was HIS idea after all. However, it is high time to re-ignite the original vision and form these packages into something we can be proud of -- OR -- cut our losses and remove them forever. I hope you're not attempting to put words into his mouth, what you think of Guido's ideas is not necessarily Guido's ideas. In any case, IDLE is open source -- I don't know exactly what license it's under but I'd assume it's the same as Python -- and anyone in this list and outside this list -- including you -- can freely fork it and work on it to improve it. In case you haven't realised it, it is pretty much impossible for a large open source project to die; even if Guido decided to remove IDLE from the standard library, it's not unlikely that someone will fork it and maintain it as a third party application. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On 12/19/11 19:51 , Raymond Hettinger wrote: Do you use IDLE when teaching Python? If not, what is the tool of choice? If your goal is to quickly get new users up and running in Python, what IDE or editor do you recommend? I would: a) let the students pick their own editor. b) encourage emacs and use emacs as a reference editor. The problem is that IDLE is hard to set up. (I've never managed it and I'm a well seasoned veteran). And pretty much only good for python, I'd expect. You'd do better to encourage eclipse, but setting that up isn't trivial either. You could create your own distribution of eclipse, but then you have that only useful for python problem again. If students are going to go anywhere else after this class, they're going to need to either be able to learn to switch editors or find an editor they can use more generally. Everyone ends up writing some html eventually, for instance. Either way requires climbing a learning curve that would be difficult to justify for a single class. OTOH, there are binary emacs distributions for all systems you've mentioned. And they work. I'm an antimicrosoft bigot, but I think my answer is probably the same regardless of whether we know the OS the students will be using or not. --rich -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On 12/27/2011 10:41 PM, Eelco wrote: *Your suggestion of VIM is especially objectionable. Though I am sure it is a great tool to you, the subject here is beginner education. Just because it is a good tool for you, does not make it a good tool for a beginner. Before using VIM, I used to use gedit (and still do, though not as often now); I don't think I've ever had any problem with not using a full blown IDE with Python. I generally don't miss not using an IDE since Python doesn't have the tradition of using overly verbose names like in Java. I'm personally of the opinion that beginners generally should start with a simple programmer text editors (gedit is a good example). Firstly, you don't want to confuse beginners with IDE vs language features; secondly, at the size of the problem beginners typically had, they don't **need** 95% of those features; and if you teach beginners powerful IDE features too early, by the time their problem gets big enough that the IDE features would actually help, they'd already forgotten about them. IPython bundled with a lightweight but function-rich and non-hacker- but-WYSIWYG editor would be a great choice. But until that comes around, pycharm it is for me. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Dec 27, 11:50 am, Lie Ryan lie.1...@gmail.com wrote: In case you haven't realised it, it is pretty much impossible for a large open source project to die; even if Guido decided to remove IDLE from the standard library I don't remember stating that Python would die if IDLE was removed (not sure if you misunderstood me or you're just making a general statement???). My belief is that the atrocious state of IDLE and Tkinter's code bases are making us look bad as a community. And i can go either way on the issue; remove them both, or enrich them both. Either way we improve on the current situation. My point is that we CANNOT just ignore the issue. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On 12/27/2011 11:59 AM, K Richard Pixley wrote: You'd do better to encourage eclipse, but setting that up isn't trivial either. IIRC, all I had to do to set up PyDev was copy a URL to Eclipse's Install New Software wizard, and have Eclipse download and install it. Extra steps are needed if a different implementation of Python (e.g. Jython) is needed, but other than that, the user only needs to specify a couple options (e.g. Python grammar version) at project creation time. This assumes that Python is already installed, but why wouldn't it be? You could create your own distribution of eclipse, but then you have that only useful for python problem again. AFAIK, Eclipse should always be good for Java unless you do some serious hacking. If students are going to go anywhere else after this class, they're going to need to either be able to learn to switch editors or find an editor they can use more generally. There are a ton of editors that have syntax highlighting and other little features for many languages. -- CPython 3.2.2 | Windows NT 6.1.7601.17640 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Dec 27, 11:59 am, K Richard Pixley r...@noir.com wrote: The problem is that IDLE is hard to set up. (I've never managed it and I'm a well seasoned veteran). Can you qualify that statement? Do you mean difficult to set up on certain OS's? Because for windows there is no difficulty. And [IDLE is] pretty much only good for python, Yes, i will agree on that! We could create snap-ins for other languages, but, there are many good multi-language editors out there already. I'd expect. You'd do better to encourage eclipse, but setting that up isn't trivial either. You could create your own distribution of eclipse, but then you have that only useful for python problem again. Same boat, different lake. If students are going to go anywhere else after this class, they're going to need to either be able to learn to switch editors or find an editor they can use more generally. Agreed! Everyone ends up writing some html eventually, for instance. most folks write more than just HTML! Ruby, Lisp, Perl, C, Java, etc. Either way requires climbing a learning curve that would be difficult to justify for a single class. Yes, i must agree that IDLE does not scale. It's true that IDLE is only good for Python. Could we make the IDLE usable for other languages? Yes, but what good is that going to do? IDLE is already slow due to Tkinter being slow, due to Python being slow... etc. I must admit that IDLE is only useful for complete beginners, those who code only in Python, or those who don't care about using a specific Python IDE. But that damn batteries included and CPFE keeps creeping up! What to do, what to do? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Dec 27, 6:53 pm, Lie Ryan lie.1...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/27/2011 10:41 PM, Eelco wrote: *Your suggestion of VIM is especially objectionable. Though I am sure it is a great tool to you, the subject here is beginner education. Just because it is a good tool for you, does not make it a good tool for a beginner. Before using VIM, I used to use gedit (and still do, though not as often now); I don't think I've ever had any problem with not using a full blown IDE with Python. I generally don't miss not using an IDE since Python doesn't have the tradition of using overly verbose names like in Java. As for my personal use, I very much prefer an IDE. I hate having only crappy code completion, for starters, and I like a good integrated debugger. But then again, im spoiled I suppose coming from C#. On the other hand, ive worked for many years using a very minimal notepad +command line compilation setup as well. But I can very well imagine that people are perfectly happy with more hackerish tools. That is, once they have gotten past the learning curve. I'm personally of the opinion that beginners generally should start with a simple programmer text editors (gedit is a good example). Firstly, you don't want to confuse beginners with IDE vs language features; secondly, at the size of the problem beginners typically had, they don't **need** 95% of those features; and if you teach beginners powerful IDE features too early, by the time their problem gets big enough that the IDE features would actually help, they'd already forgotten about them. A good IDE should get out of your way if you want it to. I like pycharm in this regard; click an x or two, and you are facing just your text editor and console/output window. Generally, I think a non-cluttered IDE is ideal for a beginner. You dont have to explain to them how to open a file, and if you tell them to hit the 'play' button to start running their code (not a hard concept to grasp or remember either) they are good to start hacking. Also, I think code completion is a blessing to beginning programmers. IPython is good in that regard; until you switch to editing files, where your choice is between notepad, or configuring an other editor you dont want your class to spend any time on, and youll end up with something that still doesnt do much more than syntax highlighting. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Dec 27, 1:45 pm, Eelco hoogendoorn.ee...@gmail.com wrote: On Dec 27, 6:53 pm, Lie Ryan lie.1...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/27/2011 10:41 PM, Eelco wrote: Before using VIM, I used to use gedit Eelco, please don't get offended, but can you (and everyone else) stop using silly verbage like used to, use to, suppose to, hard when you difficult, and pretty when you mean very. I find this verbiage to be quite ridiculous. In this case you could have simply said... Before using VIM, I USED gedit. or if you want to stress that you don't use gedit anymore you could say... Previously i used gedit, but have since moved on to VIM. Thanks As for my personal use, I very much prefer an IDE. I hate having only crappy code completion Syntax highlight is important ESPECIALLY if you're multi-lingual. Sometimes when i switch between the many languages i know, the highlight of the syntax is the only blindingly apparent clue. Take Python and Ruby for example. A good IDE should get out of your way if you want it to. I like pycharm in this regard; click an x or two, and you are facing just your text editor and console/output window. A good IDE is nothing more than an extension of a base text editor with options to switch on as little or as much IDE machinery as you like. Why would you have a text editor AND an IDE? When an IDE is just an intelligent texteditor? That is one thing that i find missing in IDLE; the ability to turn off certain things. With IDLE, it's all or nothing. Generally, I think a non-cluttered IDE is ideal for a beginner. Agreed, see last response ^^^ You dont have to explain to them how to open a file, and if you tell them to hit the 'play' button to start running their code (not a hard concept to grasp or remember either) they are good to start hacking. I always though run was a perfect verb for running code... but who knows :) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On 12/27/11 10:21 , Rick Johnson wrote: On Dec 27, 11:59 am, K Richard Pixleyr...@noir.com wrote: The problem is that IDLE is hard to set up. (I've never managed it and I'm a well seasoned veteran). Can you qualify that statement? Do you mean difficult to set up on certain OS's? Because for windows there is no difficulty. The distributed binaries haven't worked when I tried on any version of linux or macosx that I used. Attempting to build from source also failed. (I'm pretty much an anti-microsoft bigot). Everyone ends up writing some html eventually, for instance. most folks write more than just HTML! Ruby, Lisp, Perl, C, Java, etc. Dedicated computer folks and experimental tinkerers, yes, I concur. But even casual computer users eventually want to write html, or compose for a wiki and get annoyed when their 3 hours of work in a web browser test field are lost because they changed pages. --rich -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On 12/28/2011 05:11 AM, Rick Johnson wrote: On Dec 27, 11:50 am, Lie Ryanlie.1...@gmail.com wrote: In case you haven't realised it, it is pretty much impossible for a large open source project to die; even if Guido decided to remove IDLE from the standard library I don't remember stating that Python would die if IDLE was removed (not sure if you misunderstood me or you're just making a general statement???). My belief is that the atrocious state of IDLE and Tkinter's code bases are making us look bad as a community. And i can go either way on the issue; remove them both, or enrich them both. Either way we improve on the current situation. My point is that we CANNOT just ignore the issue. The point is, I didn't think it's such a pressing issue. I haven't seen anyone in or outside Python communities making their conclusion about Python based on IDLE. In any case, removing IDLE without a much better replacement is pretty much out of the question. If people installed Python in vanilla Windows install, they would only have Notepad to edit their code. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 2:13 PM, Lie Ryan lie.1...@gmail.com wrote: In any case, removing IDLE without a much better replacement is pretty much out of the question. If people installed Python in vanilla Windows install, they would only have Notepad to edit their code. No no, Wordpad is much better for editing Python. It even supports (manual) syntax highlighting! And of course for the console lovers there is MS-DOS Edit. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On 12/27/11 10:26 , Andrew Berg wrote: On 12/27/2011 11:59 AM, K Richard Pixley wrote: You'd do better to encourage eclipse, but setting that up isn't trivial either. IIRC, all I had to do to set up PyDev was copy a URL to Eclipse's Install New Software wizard, and have Eclipse download and install it. Extra steps are needed if a different implementation of Python (e.g. Jython) is needed, but other than that, the user only needs to specify a couple options (e.g. Python grammar version) at project creation time. This assumes that Python is already installed, but why wouldn't it be? You still need to match versions of PyDev to versions of Eclipse to versions of operating system to versions of other eclipse plugins. I spent a few days trying to get it together once and came to the conclusion that it was a much bigger effort than I was willing to commit to. You could create your own distribution of eclipse, but then you have that only useful for python problem again. AFAIK, Eclipse should always be good for Java unless you do some serious hacking. Depends on which versions of eclipse, java, os, other plugins, etc. If students are going to go anywhere else after this class, they're going to need to either be able to learn to switch editors or find an editor they can use more generally. There are a ton of editors that have syntax highlighting and other little features for many languages. Exactly. My preference is emacs but I'll admit that the learning curve there is pretty high by today's standards. (Whether it's worth the effort is a debatable point.) There are certainly many others. --rich -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Dec 27, 9:04 pm, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote: On Dec 27, 1:45 pm, Eelco hoogendoorn.ee...@gmail.com wrote: On Dec 27, 6:53 pm, Lie Ryan lie.1...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/27/2011 10:41 PM, Eelco wrote: Before using VIM, I used to use gedit Eelco, please don't get offended, but can you (and everyone else) stop using silly verbage like used to, use to, suppose to, hard when you difficult, and pretty when you mean very. I find this verbiage to be quite ridiculous. In this case you could have simply said... Before using VIM, I USED gedit. or if you want to stress that you don't use gedit anymore you could say... Previously i used gedit, but have since moved on to VIM. Thanks Despite the fact that you mis-attributed that quote to me, im going to be a little bit offended in the name of its actual author anyway. Thats a lot of words to waste on your linguistic preferences. Personally, I reserve the right to botch my non-native languages as much as I please. You dont have to explain to them how to open a file, and if you tell them to hit the 'play' button to start running their code (not a hard concept to grasp or remember either) they are good to start hacking. I always though run was a perfect verb for running code... but who knows :) Im assuming the audience is familiar with an ipod, but not an IDE, or programming in general. To their eyes, it looks like a 'play' button; but yes, 'running' is what its called in my mind. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On 12/27/2011 4:04 PM, K Richard Pixley wrote: You still need to match versions of PyDev to versions of Eclipse to versions of operating system to versions of other eclipse plugins. I spent a few days trying to get it together once and came to the conclusion that it was a much bigger effort than I was willing to commit to. This is more of a package management issue than an Eclipse one. I had no problems getting the very latest stable versions of everything on Windows. I'm pretty sure most schools will be using Windows for workstations anyway. In any case, if Eclipse is impractical for whatever reason, obviously it would be wise to try something else. You could create your own distribution of eclipse, but then you have that only useful for python problem again. AFAIK, Eclipse should always be good for Java unless you do some serious hacking. Depends on which versions of eclipse, java, os, other plugins, etc. How so? AFAIK, Eclipse is almost (if not completely) unusable without Java. -- CPython 3.2.2 | Windows NT 6.1.7601.17640 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
There are Dr.Python, Pycrust and Notepadplus to support writing python programs. IDLE is OK, but if a program failed inside IDLE, then I might have to kill the old IDLE and restart IDLE again. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Dec 27, 3:44 pm, Eelco hoogendoorn.ee...@gmail.com wrote: Despite the fact that you mis-attributed that quote to me, im going to be a little bit offended in the name of its actual author anyway. Thats a lot of words to waste on your linguistic preferences. Personally, I reserve the right to botch my non-native languages as much as I please. I hope you're just joking a bit because i have little respect for those who refuse to better themselves. If you are learning English as a second language then you have a legitimacy excuse, but at some point that excuse just becomes a lie. In any case, i apologize for mis- quoting you. I always though run was a perfect verb for running code... but who knows :) Im assuming the audience is familiar with an ipod, but not an IDE, or programming in general. To their eyes, it looks like a 'play' button; I would be very careful about introducing new words, or borrowing words, to replace tried and true technical terms that have existed for along time. As a matter of fact, the BDFL make the point better than i ever could: GvR speaking about ABC's design: The ABC group assumed that the users had no prior computer experience (or were willing to forget it). Thus, alternative terminology was introduced that was considered more newbie-friendly than standard programming terms. For example: procedures were called how-tos and variables locations. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Dec 27, 7:21 pm, 8 Dihedral dihedral88...@googlemail.com wrote: There are Dr.Python, Pycrust and Notepadplus to support writing python programs. I really like Pycrust. It's written in Python, it's code base is structured in a professional manner (IDLE you should be jealous!), and it works well. However, it is dependent on WxPython; so that's right out. IDLE is OK, but if a program failed inside IDLE, then I might have to kill the old IDLE and restart IDLE again. Yes, i've had to kill many frozen instances of IDLE. It gets aggravating. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On 12/27/11 19:56, Rick Johnson wrote: On Dec 27, 3:44 pm, Eelcohoogendoorn.ee...@gmail.com wrote: Despite the fact that you mis-attributed that quote to me, im going to be a little bit offended in the name of its actual author anyway. Thats a lot of words to waste on your linguistic preferences. Personally, I reserve the right to botch my non-native languages as much as I please. I hope you're just joking a bit because i have little respect for those who refuse to better themselves. If you are learning English as a second language then you have a legitimacy excuse, but at some point that excuse just becomes a lie. I'm glad you're open to learning more about English as used to is perfectly acceptable according to the World English Dictionary[1] 2. (takes an infinitive or implied infinitive) used as an auxiliary to express habitual or accustomed actions, states, etc, taking place in the past but not continuing into the present: I don't drink these days, but I used to; I used to fish here every day May you be found better for learning and come to give others the benefit of the doubt. -tkc [1] http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/used%20to -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Dec 27, 8:21 pm, Tim Chase python.l...@tim.thechases.com wrote: I'm glad you're open to learning more about English as used to is perfectly acceptable according to the World English Dictionary[1] [...] May you be found better for learning and come to give others the benefit of the doubt. I don't care what ANY dictionary says. Much less a world dictionary. I don't validate or invalidate a word based on some phony baloney group of pseudo intellectuals who decided one to day that writing a dictionary might be cool. I am against these words and phrases because we already have words that work just fine. Why rock the boat? Why would you use a word like hard (which describes the physical properties of a tangible object), to describe how difficult a task may be? If you insist on this lunacy, then why not use soft to describe how easy a task may be? Seems ridiculous now, huh? Garbage Verbiage Translator: Used to - previously|before Supposed to - required|expected Use to - accustomed|acquainted Right (OOC) - Correct Hard (OOC) - Difficult Pretty (OOC) - very This is group has the most dumbest smart people i have ever met! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote: I don't care what ANY dictionary says. Much less a world dictionary. I don't validate or invalidate a word based on some phony baloney group of pseudo intellectuals who decided one to day that writing a dictionary might be cool. Finally we know who Ranting Rick is the alt of. He's Humpty Dumpty! http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Through_the_Looking-Glass,_and_What_Alice_Found_There/Chapter_VI ChrisA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Dec 27, 11:26 pm, Andrew Berg bahamutzero8...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/27/2011 11:59 AM, K Richard Pixley wrote: You'd do better to encourage eclipse, but setting that up isn't trivial either. IIRC, all I had to do to set up PyDev was copy a URL to Eclipse's Install New Software wizard, and have Eclipse download and install it. Extra steps are needed if a different implementation of Python (e.g. Jython) is needed, but other than that, the user only needs to specify a couple options (e.g. Python grammar version) at project creation time. This assumes that Python is already installed, but why wouldn't it be? There was a recent announcement about eclipse for python (pydev) http://www.mail-archive.com/python-list@python.org/msg320434.html It did not work for me -- got a backtrace. I responded with that. There was no further response. Just mentioning that at least in some cases it does not 'just work.' -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 18:42:05 -0800, Rick Johnson wrote: On Dec 27, 8:21 pm, Tim Chase python.l...@tim.thechases.com wrote: I'm glad you're open to learning more about English as used to is perfectly acceptable according to the World English Dictionary[1] [...] May you be found better for learning and come to give others the benefit of the doubt. I don't care what ANY dictionary says. Much less a world dictionary. I don't validate or invalidate a word based on some phony baloney group of pseudo intellectuals who decided one to day that writing a dictionary might be cool. I am against these words and phrases because we already have words that work just fine. Why rock the boat? Why do you say rock when the word shake is just as good? Why do you say boat when we already have ship? Why do you say pseudo intellectuals when you could say fake intellectuals? Why do I waste my time reading your pretentious self-important nonsense? [...] This is group has the most dumbest smart people i have ever met! Considering I keep expecting you to stop trolling, I admit this applies to me. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Dec 25, 9:27 pm, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 4:44 AM, Rick Johnson [...] Conversely, why write an IDE into IDLE when perfectly-good IDEs already exist? I don't use IDLE for development per se; it's for interactive Python execution, but not editing of source files. I believe the answer is two fold: 1. Including an IDE like IDLE into the Python distro helps noobs to get started quickly without needing to traverse a gauntlet of unknown IDEs on their own. If later they find something that they feel is more appropriate; so be it. 2. (and most important to me... IDLE is written in Python using the Tkinter GUI (which ships with python also). Therefore, the source code for IDLE can be a GREAT teaching resource for how to write professional Tkinter applications. I KNOW THE CURRENT SOURCE SUCKS! However, we could change that. So, with those points being covered, i believe IDLE is very important to the Python community and could be useful to more people IF we clean it up a bit. It's really a great little IDE with even greater potential. If Guido would just say something (or at least some of the top Pythionistas (Hettinger i am looking at you!)) this community might work together to fix this problem. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote: On Dec 25, 9:27 pm, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 4:44 AM, Rick Johnson [...] Conversely, why write an IDE into IDLE when perfectly-good IDEs already exist? I don't use IDLE for development per se; it's for interactive Python execution, but not editing of source files. I believe the answer is two fold: 1. Including an IDE like IDLE into the Python distro helps noobs to get started quickly without needing to traverse a gauntlet of unknown IDEs on their own. If later they find something that they feel is more appropriate; so be it. 2. (and most important to me... IDLE is written in Python using the Tkinter GUI (which ships with python also). Therefore, the source code for IDLE can be a GREAT teaching resource for how to write professional Tkinter applications. I KNOW THE CURRENT SOURCE SUCKS! However, we could change that. So, with those points being covered, i believe IDLE is very important to the Python community and could be useful to more people IF we clean it up a bit. It's really a great little IDE with even greater potential. If Guido would just say something (or at least some of the top Pythionistas (Hettinger i am looking at you!)) this community might work together to fix this problem. Not everyone who has Python installed wants to learn the language. I do think that a learning distro that has a lot of core tools pre-installed, and ships with some tutorials, would be a decent idea. Sort of like Enthought for new users :) I don't feel IDLE is worth salvaging though. Nathan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Dec 26, 10:11 am, Nathan Rice nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote: On Dec 25, 9:27 pm, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 4:44 AM, Rick Johnson [...] Conversely, why write an IDE into IDLE when perfectly-good IDEs already exist? I don't use IDLE for development per se; it's for interactive Python execution, but not editing of source files. I believe the answer is two fold: 1. Including an IDE like IDLE into the Python distro helps noobs to get started quickly without needing to traverse a gauntlet of unknown IDEs on their own. If later they find something that they feel is more appropriate; so be it. 2. (and most important to me... IDLE is written in Python using the Tkinter GUI (which ships with python also). Therefore, the source code for IDLE can be a GREAT teaching resource for how to write professional Tkinter applications. I KNOW THE CURRENT SOURCE SUCKS! However, we could change that. So, with those points being covered, i believe IDLE is very important to the Python community and could be useful to more people IF we clean it up a bit. It's really a great little IDE with even greater potential. If Guido would just say something (or at least some of the top Pythionistas (Hettinger i am looking at you!)) this community might work together to fix this problem. Not everyone who has Python installed wants to learn the language. I'll admit you make a very valid point. But since they are not familiar with the language, what they don't know cannot hurt them. Although i do see a need to keep the core distro small. If we remove IDLE then we face the next big question... Should we remove Tkinter? I do think that a learning distro that has a lot of core tools pre-installed, and ships with some tutorials, would be a decent idea. Sort of like Enthought for new users :) This is the kind of inventiveness i have been looking for in this group. I think this is a great idea! I don't feel IDLE is worth salvaging though. Agreed. Not in it's current state anyway. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 06:52:03 -0800, Rick Johnson wrote: If Guido would just say something (or at least some of the top Pythionistas (Hettinger i am looking at you!)) this community might work together to fix this problem. The sheer cluelessness displayed here about open source is painful. If Guido would just say something, this community would yawn. He's not the boss of us. Python development is an all-volunteer effort. The community works on projects that we find interesting, or that we need ourselves, not just because Guido says something about it -- and certainly not projects that you demand we work on. Instead of demanding that GvR order us to work on IDLE, put your money where your mouth is, Rick, and stop being a blow-hard. You've been nagging us about IDLE for long enough -- what is it now, two years? Three? I haven't been counting, but it feels like geological ages. Start a project to fix IDLE. There is plenty of free hosting on the Internet for open source projects, like GitHub and Google Code Hosting. Track some bugs. Plan some concrete enhancements. Write some actual code. Demonstrate actual effort, and you may attract others who care. Otherwise, you're wasting our time. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 5:32 AM, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote: Why has Guido not, at the very least, contacted me privately? He could remain anonymous. And how would you know if he did contact you anonymously? As to your demand that one of the top Pythionistas [sic] say something? I declare hereby that I am, in fact, a top Pythonista. [1] Rick, go fork Python onto Bitbucket. Call it Python 4000 if you like, or just Python with a better IDLE or whatever. Go! Shoo! Code! There. A top Pythonista has spoken. And if the above satisfy you not, I actually said it out loud too, just to be sure. That's how important you are to The Python Community (capital letters and all). ChrisA [1] Start here and follow the thread. I've done all of them. (Actually I probably haven't, and I haven't even read the whole thread, which just came up when I googled 'pythonista', but I defy you to prove me lying.) http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2003-June/207114.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Dec 20, 10:58 am, Andrea Crotti andrea.crott...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/20/2011 03:51 AM, Raymond Hettinger wrote: Do you use IDLE when teaching Python? If not, what is the tool of choice? Students may not be experienced with the command-line and may be running Windows, Linux, or Macs. Ideally, the tool or IDE will be easy to install and configure (startup directory, path, associated with a particular version of Python etc). Though an Emacs user myself, I've been teaching with IDLE because it's free; it runs on multiple OSes, it has tooltips and code colorization and easy indent/dedent/comment/uncomment commands, it has tab completion; it allows easy editing at the interactive prompt; it has an easy run-script command (F5); it has direct access to source code (File OpenModule) and a class browser (Cntl+B). On the downside, some python distros aren't built with the requisite Tcl/Tk support; some distros like the Mac OS ship with a broken Tcl/Tk so users have to install a fix to that as well; and IDLE sometimes just freezes for no reason. It also doesn't have an easy way to specify the startup directory. If your goal is to quickly get new users up and running in Python, what IDE or editor do you recommend? Raymond I think ipython and a good editor gives a much nicer experience than IDLE, which I actually almost never used, and for everything else there is python and python-mode. New users however can be pointed to something like PyCharm or Eclipse+PyDev if they are more familiar to IDEs.. I agree; IPython is a excellent choice. You have a much more powerful interactive Python experience, with all the features you need from an IDE. You can use any editor (VIM) and you can also readily hack IPython to death. I think the fact that anyone with basic programming skills can substantially enhance their console is a big winner in CS education. It gives students something they personally value to work on, it's a place to store all their little bits of code and actually benefit from them in real life. I've never met a programmer that got familiar with IPython and then went on to stop using it. It should be included in the standard library and used as the default Python interactive environment. The last line of my .bashrc file: ipython3 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Dec 25, 5:44 pm, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote: On Dec 19, 9:51 pm, Raymond Hettinger raymond.hettin...@gmail.com wrote: Do you use IDLE when teaching Python? If not, what is the tool of choice? I believe IDLE has the potential to be a very useful teaching tool and even in it's current abysmal state, i find it to be quite useful. Students may not be experienced with the command-line and may be running Windows, Linux, or Macs. Ideally, the tool or IDE will be easy to install and configure (startup directory, path, associated with a particular version of Python etc). Why install an IDE when IDLE is already there? Oh, yes, IDLE SUCKS. I know that already. But this revelation begs the question... Why has this community allowed IDLE to rot? Why has guido NOT started a public discussion on the matter? Though an Emacs user myself, I've been teaching with IDLE because it's free; it runs on multiple OSes, it has tooltips and code colorization and easy indent/dedent/comment/uncomment commands, it has tab completion; it allows easy editing at the interactive prompt; it has an easy run-script command (F5); it has direct access to source code (File OpenModule) and a class browser (Cntl+B). Yes, IDLE has all the basic tools anyone would need. Some people complain about a debugger, but i never use a debugger anyway. I feel debuggers just wreaken your debugging skills. On the downside, some python distros aren't built with the requisite Tcl/Tk support; And who's fault is that? some distros like the Mac OS ship with a broken Tcl/Tk so users have to install a fix to that as well; and IDLE sometimes just freezes for no reason. And who's fault is that? [IDLE] also doesn't have an easy way to specify the startup directory. Are you kidding me? That could be fixed so easily! If your goal is to quickly get new users up and running in Python, what IDE or editor do you recommend? IDLE, of course. But NOT in its current state. Why would myself (or anyone) go to the trouble of downloading third party IDEs when IDLE is just waiting there for us to use? I for one, like to use tools that have open source code. And what is a better Python IDE than a Python IDE written in PYTHON? I ask ya? Also, what is the purpose of this thread Raymond? Are you (and others) considering removing IDLE from the source distro? You know. Many folks in this community have known for a long time how much i love IDLE, but at the same time how much i loath it's atrocious code base. I also know for a fact, that many movers and shakers within this community simultaneously use IDLE, and want to see IDLE code improved. However. None of these fine folks have taken the time to contact me privately so we can discuss such an evolution. Why is that? It boggles the mind really. Do people seriously use IDLE? I thought it was just there for scratchers, like turtle. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Dec 19, 9:51 pm, Raymond Hettinger raymond.hettin...@gmail.com wrote: Do you use IDLE when teaching Python? If not, what is the tool of choice? I believe IDLE has the potential to be a very useful teaching tool and even in it's current abysmal state, i find it to be quite useful. Students may not be experienced with the command-line and may be running Windows, Linux, or Macs. Ideally, the tool or IDE will be easy to install and configure (startup directory, path, associated with a particular version of Python etc). Why install an IDE when IDLE is already there? Oh, yes, IDLE SUCKS. I know that already. But this revelation begs the question... Why has this community allowed IDLE to rot? Why has guido NOT started a public discussion on the matter? Though an Emacs user myself, I've been teaching with IDLE because it's free; it runs on multiple OSes, it has tooltips and code colorization and easy indent/dedent/comment/uncomment commands, it has tab completion; it allows easy editing at the interactive prompt; it has an easy run-script command (F5); it has direct access to source code (File OpenModule) and a class browser (Cntl+B). Yes, IDLE has all the basic tools anyone would need. Some people complain about a debugger, but i never use a debugger anyway. I feel debuggers just wreaken your debugging skills. On the downside, some python distros aren't built with the requisite Tcl/Tk support; And who's fault is that? some distros like the Mac OS ship with a broken Tcl/Tk so users have to install a fix to that as well; and IDLE sometimes just freezes for no reason. And who's fault is that? [IDLE] also doesn't have an easy way to specify the startup directory. Are you kidding me? That could be fixed so easily! If your goal is to quickly get new users up and running in Python, what IDE or editor do you recommend? IDLE, of course. But NOT in its current state. Why would myself (or anyone) go to the trouble of downloading third party IDEs when IDLE is just waiting there for us to use? I for one, like to use tools that have open source code. And what is a better Python IDE than a Python IDE written in PYTHON? I ask ya? Also, what is the purpose of this thread Raymond? Are you (and others) considering removing IDLE from the source distro? You know. Many folks in this community have known for a long time how much i love IDLE, but at the same time how much i loath it's atrocious code base. I also know for a fact, that many movers and shakers within this community simultaneously use IDLE, and want to see IDLE code improved. However. None of these fine folks have taken the time to contact me privately so we can discuss such an evolution. Why is that? It boggles the mind really. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 4:44 AM, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote: Why install an IDE when IDLE is already there? Oh, yes, IDLE SUCKS. I know that already. But this revelation begs the question... Why has this community allowed IDLE to rot? Why has guido NOT started a public discussion on the matter? Conversely, why write an IDE into IDLE when perfectly-good IDEs already exist? I don't use IDLE for development per se; it's for interactive Python execution, but not editing of source files. ChrisA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
Not a teacher here, but I'm curious why Komodo Edit never seems to get any love in the IDE debates... a free version for personal/non-profit use, pro versions for those that need the extra features, seems to work fairly well but then again I'm probably not the best judge... Thanks, Monte -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Dec 21, 9:57 am, Nathan Rice nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com wrote: +1 for IPython/%edit using the simplest editor that supports syntax highlighting and line numbers. I have found that Exploring/Prototyping in the interpreter has the highest ROI of anything I teach people. Thank you Nathan and all the other respondents for your thoughtful answers. Raymond -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Dec 21, 9:57 pm, Nathan Rice nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com wrote: +1 for IPython/%edit using the simplest editor that supports syntax highlighting and line numbers. I have found that Exploring/Prototyping in the interpreter has the highest ROI of anything I teach people. Nathan It seems to me that we are not distinguishing different 'scales'. For example: In principle one can use any unit to measure length. In practice it is inconvenient to use kilometers when microns or angstroms are more appropriate. Clearly there is a need, when learning a language, to explore the basics with a minimum of interference from the environment ie introspection features of python with as little extra interference as possible. As a teacher I generally demonstrate with python-mode in emacs. I guess IDLE, ipython etc should be equivalent. But then someone in the class comes with a 'question' of this sort: We have this project in eclipse+python. But the path is not being searched properly. etc Now for me eclipse is more of pizazz on the outside and nightmare on the inside. [Or maybe its just that I am particularly bad at solving these kinds of problems]. Nevertheless this scale or granularity of work is also important in python education and is sorely underrepresented. Here are some of my earlier attempts to canvass for this orientation: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2011-May/1271749.html http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2011-November/1283634.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
+1 for IPython/%edit using the simplest editor that supports syntax highlighting and line numbers. I have found that Exploring/Prototyping in the interpreter has the highest ROI of anything I teach people. Nathan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
Devin Jeanpierre, 20.12.2011 08:32: Truthfully I'm not sure why it's great for teaching, though. And there were some discussions I overheard about perhaps switching to PyCharm, which at least one professor thought was much better. I recently started using PyCharm personally, but not for my courses. There's a free OSS developers licence and it's a really nice (although young and somewhat resource hungry) IDE, but you can't really advocate a non-free IDE for teaching. Buy me as a teacher, and, BTW, buy this IDE for everyone as well or I won't teach you? Doesn't quite work. For teaching, I think it's better to come around with something simpler than a full-blown IDE, so that you can show off interactive development, help() and other introspection features. IMHO much better than hiding all that behind an IDE, especially behind the additional complexity of an IDE. IPython is much better suited to present an interactive language like Python. Stefan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On 12/20/2011 03:51 AM, Raymond Hettinger wrote: Do you use IDLE when teaching Python? If not, what is the tool of choice? Students may not be experienced with the command-line and may be running Windows, Linux, or Macs. Ideally, the tool or IDE will be easy to install and configure (startup directory, path, associated with a particular version of Python etc). Though an Emacs user myself, I've been teaching with IDLE because it's free; it runs on multiple OSes, it has tooltips and code colorization and easy indent/dedent/comment/uncomment commands, it has tab completion; it allows easy editing at the interactive prompt; it has an easy run-script command (F5); it has direct access to source code (File OpenModule) and a class browser (Cntl+B). On the downside, some python distros aren't built with the requisite Tcl/Tk support; some distros like the Mac OS ship with a broken Tcl/Tk so users have to install a fix to that as well; and IDLE sometimes just freezes for no reason. It also doesn't have an easy way to specify the startup directory. If your goal is to quickly get new users up and running in Python, what IDE or editor do you recommend? Raymond I think ipython and a good editor gives a much nicer experience than IDLE, which I actually almost never used, and for everything else there is python and python-mode. New users however can be pointed to something like PyCharm or Eclipse+PyDev if they are more familiar to IDEs.. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
I taught a Python class just recently, and thought long and hard about this problem. I settled on PyCharm and was happy with that. My reasons: - available on all main platoforms - not entirely broken code completion (ive tried literally every python editor, and pycharm is the only one that meets this requirement on all platforms. Try import numpy; numpy.array. 90% of editors with 'code completion' will fail that simple benchmark. The only thing worse than no completion list is an incomplete list of completions. Only pyscripter is better in this regard, but win-only.) - easy installation - integrated console - integrated debugger - free (for classroom use) - fairly uncluttered I recently started using PyCharm personally, but not for my courses. There's a free OSS developers licence and it's a really nice (although young and somewhat resource hungry) IDE, but you can't really advocate a non-free IDE for teaching. Buy me as a teacher, and, BTW, buy this IDE for everyone as well or I won't teach you? Doesn't quite work. PyCharm provides a free 1 year classroom license. For teaching, I think it's better to come around with something simpler than a full-blown IDE, so that you can show off interactive development, help() and other introspection features. IMHO much better than hiding all that behind an IDE, especially behind the additional complexity of an IDE. IPython is much better suited to present an interactive language like Python. PyCharm has an integrated interpreter (a wrapper around Ipython that superimposes the pycharm based code completion stuff). Plus, it does not start by default into a clutter-overload mode, and if you click away a pane or two, you have a rather clean editor. Aside from worrying about your editor, worry about how to install python. As a windows user, I had scarcely imagined the nightmares of installing everything on all platforms, different OS versions, and so forth. DONT install/compile via the command line, and DO use a precompiled distro like enthought. Macosx does not come with a C compiler, and your only recourse is the 4-gig xcode download. That is, if *friggin ITunes* lets you install it, and does not silently screw up your installation. I could go on, but anyway you get the point. Unless its your own computer, anything more complex than double clicking an installer WILL GO WRONG, and spending hours debugging other peoples computers is not how you want to spend your time. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Dec 20, 2:14 am, Stefan Behnel stefan...@behnel.de wrote: For teaching, I think it's better to come around with something simpler than a full-blown IDE, so that you can show off interactive development, help() and other introspection features. IMHO much better than hiding all that behind an IDE, That is a damn good point Stefan. Too many noobs step passed the introspection features of Python without knowing what happened. help, dir, type, isinstance, id... to name a few. Heck for most things, considering you have at least basic programming experience, the help function is all you need to learn the language. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 1:45 AM, Rick Johnson
rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote:
Heck for most things,
considering you have at least basic programming experience, the help
function is all you need to learn the language.
I know I shouldn't feed the troll, but this is more general.
You cannot learn the _language_ from help() - it's more like a
dictionary. You still need something that explains the grammar, and
you also need to have some ideas of what names to look up.
The help() function in Python is actually not as helpful as could be
desired, in many cases. I think help() on its own is probably a good
thing, but... I didn't know about it until I tried it right while
typing up this email. (That's probably my fault more than Python's,
though.)
help(functionname) is usually fairly helpful - but most of that is
just from the function's docstring. Unfortunately help(classname) and
help(modulename) are way too spammy to be much use. Look for instance
at help(decimal.Decimal) - quite a few dunder methods are listed,
uselessly. What does __deepcopy__(self, memo) do? What about
__ge__(self, other, context=None)? Unless you happen to know that
__ge__ is the greater-than-or-equal function, it's not going to do you
much good to see the method listed. They're just spam, forcing you to
read through more screed to figure out what's going on.
Same, and even worse, with modules - help(decimal) is pages and pages
of text, detailing the exceptions supported etc. Unlike the class's,
though, the module's docstring is actually quite helpful. (It also
hints at what the context=None arguments are on a lot of the methods.)
Please note that this is not a criticism of the decimal module
specifically; and the help() function can't really be written any
other way, short of having it emit ONLY docstrings, and then demand
that module authors maintain perfect class and module docstrings (like
that's gonna happen).
Hmm. Another feature I didn't know about help() - instead of passing
it an object, you can pass it a string. This gets around the fact that
help(class) doesn't work - help('class') does. I think I should
reword this from possible feature request to does this already
exist, because it probably does... so...
Is there a less spammy documentation utility, in-built into Python?
Chris Angelico
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
I've tried several things. So far vim (with line numbers) to show the code and then ipython to run it works great. Another option I tried once was Aptana, since most people in my company know eclipse this was good for them. It has most (all?) of the features you mentioned above. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 19:51:00 -0800, Raymond Hettinger wrote: Do you use IDLE when teaching Python? If not, what is the tool of choice? I'm obviously biased (I started IPython years ago), but I've done a lot of teaching and I still do like the combination of IPython plus an editor. Sometimes I use IDLE configured to only open the editor and not the shell, but I recommend that users learn a 'real' editor for the long run (aka emacs/vim), as it's an investment that will pay off many times over. But if nothing else, there's at least an OK free editor for each OS that does work, and I keep a 'starter kit' page with those resources for my students: http://fperez.org/py4science/starter_kit.html Cheers, f -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On 20 December 2011 13:51, Raymond Hettinger raymond.hettin...@gmail.com wrote: Students may not be experienced with the command-line and may be running Windows, Linux, or Macs. Ideally, the tool or IDE will be easy to install and configure (startup directory, path, associated with a particular version of Python etc). I tutor people (usually fellow students) in programming occasionally, and I've always recommended a simple text editor and a command line (this correlates with most languages, not just Python). My personal set up (using Linux) is vim (with line numbers and syntax highlighting) + shell, no matter which language I'm working with. However for people I'm tutoring, particularly if they're new to programming in general and would find vim intimidating, I recommend gedit (for Linux) or Notepad++ (for Windows), executing/compiling from the command line. As long as the text editor has line numbers and syntax highlighting it's sufficient in my book. I don't like obfuscating what's going on in the background (i.e. interacting with the Python/C/insert language here interpreter/compiler/whatever) with a fancy IDE. However that is my personal (strong) opinion. Hope that helps. -- Ashton Fagg E-mail: ash...@fagg.id.au Web: http://www.fagg.id.au/~ashton/ Keep calm and call Batman. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
In article mailman.3895.1324433216.27778.python-l...@python.org, Ashton Fagg ash...@fagg.id.au wrote: As long as the text editor has line numbers and syntax highlighting it's sufficient in my book. I agree with the syntax highlighting. I resisted for many years, then somebody turned me on to it a few years ago and I've been addicted ever since. As for line numbers, for working alone, I don't see much point. But for any kind of interaction with other people, it's essential. It's just SO much easier to say, line 417 as opposed to OK, scroll up a couple more lines, no, no, not that far, go down a little. There! See that print statement, now go down three lines below that, ... By the time the two of you are on the same page about which line of code you're talking about, you will have forgotten what you wanted to say. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 1:34 PM, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote: As for line numbers, for working alone, I don't see much point. But for any kind of interaction with other people, it's essential. It's just SO much easier to say, line 417 as opposed to OK, scroll up a couple more lines, no, no, not that far, go down a little. There! See that print statement, now go down three lines below that, ... By the time the two of you are on the same page about which line of code you're talking about, you will have forgotten what you wanted to say. Ctrl-G in many editors will let you GOTO (sorry, I'll try to keep this PG-13) a specific line by number. Extremely handy, especially when you're debugging across computers - the error message comes up on your test computer and cites the line number, and you jump to it on your dev easily. ChrisA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
Two suggestions: - Editra (free): Requires a little bit of fiddling around and enabling Shelf, installing plugins but then it is great - Recently I was introduced to Sublime Text 2 which has an über streamlined layout. On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Raymond Hettinger raymond.hettin...@gmail.com wrote: Do you use IDLE when teaching Python? If not, what is the tool of choice? Students may not be experienced with the command-line and may be running Windows, Linux, or Macs. Ideally, the tool or IDE will be easy to install and configure (startup directory, path, associated with a particular version of Python etc). Though an Emacs user myself, I've been teaching with IDLE because it's free; it runs on multiple OSes, it has tooltips and code colorization and easy indent/dedent/comment/uncomment commands, it has tab completion; it allows easy editing at the interactive prompt; it has an easy run-script command (F5); it has direct access to source code (File OpenModule) and a class browser (Cntl+B). On the downside, some python distros aren't built with the requisite Tcl/Tk support; some distros like the Mac OS ship with a broken Tcl/Tk so users have to install a fix to that as well; and IDLE sometimes just freezes for no reason. It also doesn't have an easy way to specify the startup directory. If your goal is to quickly get new users up and running in Python, what IDE or editor do you recommend? Raymond -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
On Tuesday, December 20, 2011 4:51:00 AM UTC+1, Raymond Hettinger wrote: Do you use IDLE when teaching Python? If not, what is the tool of choice? Students may not be experienced with the command-line and may be running Windows, Linux, or Macs. Ideally, the tool or IDE will be easy to install and configure (startup directory, path, associated with a particular version of Python etc). Though an Emacs user myself, I've been teaching with IDLE because it's free; it runs on multiple OSes, it has tooltips and code colorization and easy indent/dedent/comment/uncomment commands, it has tab completion; it allows easy editing at the interactive prompt; it has an easy run-script command (F5); it has direct access to source code (File OpenModule) and a class browser (Cntl+B). On the downside, some python distros aren't built with the requisite Tcl/Tk support; some distros like the Mac OS ship with a broken Tcl/Tk so users have to install a fix to that as well; and IDLE sometimes just freezes for no reason. It also doesn't have an easy way to specify the startup directory. If your goal is to quickly get new users up and running in Python, what IDE or editor do you recommend? Raymond If you want an easy to use, cross-platform editor with lots of nice features I would also recommend Sulbime Text 2. You would have to teach how to use the terminal on different platforms but for basic stuff, like running a python program it's basically the same on Linux, Windows and OSX. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python education survey
My university (University of Toronto) helped design Wing 101, and uses it exclusively in introductory courses. Overall, the only major sticking points that I saw (as a TA who helped with the code labs and setup) were installation issues on OS X (relating to X11) and some confusion on when the embedded interactive interpreter gets refreshed (hit run first). It's a big editor with lots of buttons, but IME students are good at ignoring things. Truthfully I'm not sure why it's great for teaching, though. And there were some discussions I overheard about perhaps switching to PyCharm, which at least one professor thought was much better. And I personally prefer simpler editors for my own use, not just for educational purposes. Eh. -- Devin On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 10:51 PM, Raymond Hettinger raymond.hettin...@gmail.com wrote: Do you use IDLE when teaching Python? If not, what is the tool of choice? Students may not be experienced with the command-line and may be running Windows, Linux, or Macs. Ideally, the tool or IDE will be easy to install and configure (startup directory, path, associated with a particular version of Python etc). Though an Emacs user myself, I've been teaching with IDLE because it's free; it runs on multiple OSes, it has tooltips and code colorization and easy indent/dedent/comment/uncomment commands, it has tab completion; it allows easy editing at the interactive prompt; it has an easy run-script command (F5); it has direct access to source code (File OpenModule) and a class browser (Cntl+B). On the downside, some python distros aren't built with the requisite Tcl/Tk support; some distros like the Mac OS ship with a broken Tcl/Tk so users have to install a fix to that as well; and IDLE sometimes just freezes for no reason. It also doesn't have an easy way to specify the startup directory. If your goal is to quickly get new users up and running in Python, what IDE or editor do you recommend? Raymond -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
