Re: Python -Vs- Ruby: A regexp match to the death!
On Aug 9, 8:19 am, Mike Kent mrmak...@cox.net wrote: On Aug 8, 8:43 pm, rantingrick rantingr...@gmail.com wrote: Xah, this is really you, isn't it. Come on, confess. *MOI*, How could *I* be xah. I really don't like Ruby however he gushes over it all the time. And he does not like Python that much either. We are total opposites, really. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python -Vs- Ruby: A regexp match to the death!
On Aug 8, 8:15 pm, Steven D'Aprano st...@remove-this-
cybersource.com.au wrote:
On Sun, 08 Aug 2010 17:43:03 -0700, rantingrick wrote:
Ruby has what they
call a Here Doc. Besides picking the most boneheaded name for such an
object
It's standard terminology that has been around for a long time in many
different languages.
Just because something has been around around for a long time does not
necessarily mean it's was a good idea to begin with. STRAWMAN!
As you can see it is another example of tacked on functionality that was
not carefully considered before hand.
I disagree. It's an old and venerable technique, and very useful on the
rare occasion that you have lots of quotation marks in a string.
(...snip...)
Python strings have four delimiters:
(1) single quote '
(2) double quote
(3) single-quote here-doc '''
(4) double-quote here-doc
plus equivalent raw-strings of each kind.
Trying writing that as a single literal in Python without escapes. There
are work-arounds, of course, like using implicit concatenation, but
they're ugly.
Yes, with the choices we have today writing strings like you mention
is terribly asinine. And don't forget about filepaths and regexps too
with all the backslashing nonsense! However, there is a simple
solution to this mess. Python double quote strings and Python
multiline strings(that are delimited by leading and trailing
double quote triplets) should behave as they do today.
However Python 'single quote strings' and Python '''multiline
strings'''(that are delimited by leading and trailing single quote
triplets) should be raw so that they do not interpret escape
sequences. Yes i know this would break backwards compatibility *again*
but this functionality should have been made available in Py3000 since
we were already breaking it anyhow.
Why do we need both X AND '''X''' this if they do exactly the
same thing? Also why do we need both X AND 'X' if they do exactly
the same thing. A real chance to make something special was missed and
i hope one day we come to the realization that this proposed
functionality of strings (raw and normal) is sorely needed in Python.
In Ruby they decided to be more general, so you can define whatever
heredoc you need to quote whatever literal string you need. That's not
bone-headed.
The fact that Ruby has multi line strings (*ahem*... HEREDOC's) is not
at all the point i take issue with. I take issue with the boneheaded
syntax. Have you ever tried to grep Ruby heredocs? It would have been
so much easier if they had made a spec like this...
mystring = :{
blah blah blah
blahblah
blah blah blah
blah
}:
Or at least *some* static token instead of just creating something on
the fly each time now thats boneheaded!
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python -Vs- Ruby: A regexp match to the death!
On Aug 8, 8:15 pm, Steven D'Aprano st...@remove-this- cybersource.com.au wrote: In Ruby they decided to be more general, so you can define whatever heredoc you need to quote whatever literal string you need. That's not bone-headed. Devils Advocate! PS: Man you're irb main was so full of cobweb i could barley see the code... haa... h... hachew!. ;-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python -Vs- Ruby: A regexp match to the death!
On Mon, 09 Aug 2010 00:29:19 -0700, rantingrick wrote: On Aug 8, 8:15 pm, Steven D'Aprano st...@remove-this- cybersource.com.au wrote: In Ruby they decided to be more general, so you can define whatever heredoc you need to quote whatever literal string you need. That's not bone-headed. Devils Advocate! PS: Man you're irb main was so full of cobweb i could barley see the code... haa... h... hachew!. ;-) irb's default prompt is a bit too verbose for my tastes, but Python allows you to customise its prompt too. You'll often see people here posting copy/pastes with a customised prompt, so obviously some people like that sort of thing. Me, my biggest gripe with the interactive interpreter is that using as a prompt clashes with as the standard quoting character in email and news, but Guido has refused to even consider changing it. And that it's quite finicky about blank lines between methods and inside functions. Makes it hard to paste code directly into the interpreter. And that pasting doesn't strip out any leading prompts. It needs a good doctest mode. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python -Vs- Ruby: A regexp match to the death!
Hi Steven, On 2010-08-09 10:21, Steven D'Aprano wrote: And that it's quite finicky about blank lines between methods and inside functions. Makes it hard to paste code directly into the interpreter. And that pasting doesn't strip out any leading prompts. It needs a good doctest mode. ipython [1] should help here: IPython 0.10 -- An enhanced Interactive Python. ? - Introduction and overview of IPython's features. %quickref - Quick reference. help - Python's own help system. object? - Details about 'object'. ?object also works, ?? prints more. In [1]: %paste? Type: Magic function Base Class: type 'instancemethod' String Form:bound method InteractiveShell.magic_paste of IPython.iplib.InteractiveShell object at 0xb740096c Namespace: IPython internal File: /usr/lib/pymodules/python2.6/IPython/Magic.py Definition: %paste(self, parameter_s='') Docstring: Allows you to paste execute a pre-formatted code block from clipboard. The text is pulled directly from the clipboard without user intervention. The block is dedented prior to execution to enable execution of method definitions. '' and '+' characters at the beginning of a line are ignored, to allow pasting directly from e-mails, diff files and doctests (the '...' continuation prompt is also stripped). The executed block is also assigned to variable named 'pasted_block' for later editing with '%edit pasted_block'. You can also pass a variable name as an argument, e.g. '%paste foo'. This assigns the pasted block to variable 'foo' as string, without dedenting or executing it (preceding and + is still stripped) '%paste -r' re-executes the block previously entered by cpaste. IPython statements (magics, shell escapes) are not supported (yet). See also cpaste: manually paste code into terminal until you mark its end. Unfortunatey, when I enter In [2]: %paste at the prompt it gives me (before I pasted anything) In [2]: %paste File string, line 1 http://pypi.python.org/pypi/ipython/0.10 ^ SyntaxError: invalid syntax So far, I couldn't find anything on the net on this. [1] http://pypi.python.org/pypi/ipython Stefan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python -Vs- Ruby: A regexp match to the death!
On Aug 8, 8:43 pm, rantingrick rantingr...@gmail.com wrote: Hello folks, You all know i been forced to use Ruby and i am not happy about that. ***Blablabla cut long rant*** Xah, this is really you, isn't it. Come on, confess. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python -Vs- Ruby: A regexp match to the death!
On 2010-08-09 06:42 , Stefan Schwarzer wrote: Hi Steven, On 2010-08-09 10:21, Steven D'Aprano wrote: And that it's quite finicky about blank lines between methods and inside functions. Makes it hard to paste code directly into the interpreter. And that pasting doesn't strip out any leading prompts. It needs a good doctest mode. ipython [1] should help here: IPython 0.10 -- An enhanced Interactive Python. ? - Introduction and overview of IPython's features. %quickref - Quick reference. help - Python's own help system. object? - Details about 'object'. ?object also works, ?? prints more. In [1]: %paste? Type: Magic function Base Class:type 'instancemethod' String Form:bound method InteractiveShell.magic_paste ofIPython.iplib.InteractiveShell object at 0xb740096c Namespace: IPython internal File: /usr/lib/pymodules/python2.6/IPython/Magic.py Definition: %paste(self, parameter_s='') Docstring: Allows you to paste execute a pre-formatted code block from clipboard. The text is pulled directly from the clipboard without user intervention. The block is dedented prior to execution to enable execution of method definitions. '' and '+' characters at the beginning of a line are ignored, to allow pasting directly from e-mails, diff files and doctests (the '...' continuation prompt is also stripped). The executed block is also assigned to variable named 'pasted_block' for later editing with '%edit pasted_block'. You can also pass a variable name as an argument, e.g. '%paste foo'. This assigns the pasted block to variable 'foo' as string, without dedenting or executing it (preceding and + is still stripped) '%paste -r' re-executes the block previously entered by cpaste. IPython statements (magics, shell escapes) are not supported (yet). See also cpaste: manually paste code into terminal until you mark its end. Unfortunatey, when I enter In [2]: %paste at the prompt it gives me (before I pasted anything) In [2]: %paste File string, line 1 http://pypi.python.org/pypi/ipython/0.10 ^ SyntaxError: invalid syntax Yes, that's because you had that URL in your clipboard, not Python code. What were you expecting to happen? -- Robert Kern I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth. -- Umberto Eco -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python -Vs- Ruby: A regexp match to the death!
Hi Robert, On 2010-08-09 22:23, Robert Kern wrote: On 2010-08-09 06:42 , Stefan Schwarzer wrote: Unfortunatey, when I enter In [2]: %paste at the prompt it gives me (before I pasted anything) In [2]: %paste File string, line 1 http://pypi.python.org/pypi/ipython/0.10 ^ SyntaxError: invalid syntax Yes, that's because you had that URL in your clipboard, not Python code. What were you expecting to happen? I got that traceback as soon as I typed in %paste and pressed enter, without pasting anything in the terminal. I had assumed it works like :paste in Vim, activating a kind of paste mode where everything pasted into the terminal is modified as the help text suggests. Ok, I just noticed I should have actually _read_ the help text, not just scanned it. ;-) Sorry for the confusion. Stefan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python -Vs- Ruby: A regexp match to the death!
On 2010-08-09 23:43, Stefan Schwarzer wrote: I got that traceback as soon as I typed in %paste and pressed enter, without pasting anything in the terminal. I had assumed it works like :paste in Vim, activating a I meant :set paste of course. Stefan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python -Vs- Ruby: A regexp match to the death!
On 9 Aug, 10:21, Steven D'Aprano st...@remove-this- cybersource.com.au wrote: And that it's quite finicky about blank lines between methods and inside functions. Makes it hard to paste code directly into the interpreter. The combination of editor, debugger and interpreter is what I miss most from Matlab. In Matlab we can have a function or script open in an editor, and use it directly from the interpreter. No need to reimport or anything: edit and invoke. It is also possible to paste data directly from the clipboard into variables in the interpreter. ipython does not have that annoying prompt. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python -Vs- Ruby: A regexp match to the death!
On 8/9/10 4:43 PM, Stefan Schwarzer wrote: Hi Robert, On 2010-08-09 22:23, Robert Kern wrote: On 2010-08-09 06:42 , Stefan Schwarzer wrote: Unfortunatey, when I enter In [2]: %paste at the prompt it gives me (before I pasted anything) In [2]: %paste File string, line 1 http://pypi.python.org/pypi/ipython/0.10 ^ SyntaxError: invalid syntax Yes, that's because you had that URL in your clipboard, not Python code. What were you expecting to happen? I got that traceback as soon as I typed in %paste and pressed enter, without pasting anything in the terminal. I had assumed it works like :paste in Vim, activating a kind of paste mode where everything pasted into the terminal is modified as the help text suggests. %cpaste will do that. I implemented %paste because not all terminals will correctly paste arbitrary amounts of code correctly. Grabbing the text directly from the clipboard is less error-prone and removes redundant user interaction. -- Robert Kern I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth. -- Umberto Eco -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python -Vs- Ruby: A regexp match to the death!
rantingrick wrote:
Hello folks,
[snip]
-
Strings
-
Single line strings are exactly the same in both languages except in
Ruby double quoted strings are backslash interpreted and single quote
strings are basically raw. Except Ruby introduces more cruft (as
usual) in the form of what i call lazy man stings
a = %w{ one two three}
[one, two, three]
s = %{one two three}
one two three
repat = %r{one two three}
/one two three/
... only good for hand coding!
From Perl.
--
Multi Line Strings
--
Ha. Ruby does not really have multi line strings. Ruby has what they
call a Here Doc. Besides picking the most boneheaded name for such
an object they also introduced and even more boneheaded syntax. To
define a Here Doc (god i hate that name!) you start with double
greater than and immediately follow with an identifier token of
you choice (it can be anything your dirty little mind can come up
with.
HEREDOC
this is the body
of a
here doc. Why the
hell did they not just
use triple quotes like Python did.
Now i will need to remember some token to know where'
i stopped
HEREDOC
As you can see it is another example of tacked on functionality that
was not carefully considered before hand. Anyway here are the
regexp's...
Python: r'.*?'
Python: r'''.*?'''
Ruby: r'(\w+).*?(\1)'
Also from Perl.
I don't know what the point of your post was. We already know that we
prefer Python; that's why we're here! :-)
And anyway, being nasty about other languages feels unPythonic to me...
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python -Vs- Ruby: A regexp match to the death!
On Sun, 08 Aug 2010 17:43:03 -0700, rantingrick wrote:
Ha. Ruby does not really have multi line strings.
Except, of course, it does, as you go on to show.
Ruby has what they
call a Here Doc. Besides picking the most boneheaded name for such an
object
It's standard terminology that has been around for a long time in many
different languages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_document
they also introduced and even more boneheaded syntax. To define a
Here Doc (god i hate that name!) you start with double greater than
and immediately follow with an identifier token of you choice (it
can be anything your dirty little mind can come up with.
HEREDOC
this is the body
of a
here doc. Why the
hell did they not just
use triple quotes like Python did.
Now i will need to remember some token to know where' i stopped
HEREDOC
Incorrect.
[st...@sylar ~]$ irb
irb(main):001:0 s = END
SyntaxError: compile error
(irb):1: syntax error
s = END
^
from (irb):1
irb(main):002:0 s = -END
irb(main):003:0 Multi-line text
irb(main):004:0 goes here
irb(main):005:0 END
= Multi-line text\ngoes here\n
irb(main):006:0 puts s
Multi-line text
goes here
= nil
irb(main):007:0
As you can see it is another example of tacked on functionality that was
not carefully considered before hand.
I disagree. It's an old and venerable technique, and very useful on the
rare occasion that you have lots of quotation marks in a string.
Whether those rare occasions are common enough to require specialist
syntax is another question. In Python, the idea is that two heredocs ('''
and ) is enough for anybody. That makes it difficult to write a string
literal like, e.g.:
Python strings have four delimiters:
(1) single quote '
(2) double quote
(3) single-quote here-doc '''
(4) double-quote here-doc
plus equivalent raw-strings of each kind.
Trying writing that as a single literal in Python without escapes. There
are work-arounds, of course, like using implicit concatenation, but
they're ugly.
In Ruby they decided to be more general, so you can define whatever
heredoc you need to quote whatever literal string you need. That's not
bone-headed.
--
Steven
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
bruno modulix wrote: It's been a long time since I last saw a Java applet on a website. That can only mean you are ignorant. Applets are a huge deal for Intranets. And Java Web Start is even more useful. I really wish Python had such wonderful means of deployment. bruno modulix wrote Err... I wouldn't start another HolyWar, but Java is not that Object Oriented. 'Class-based' would be more appropriate. Python, while not being class-based (ie: it doesn't impose that all code goes into a 'class' statement), is much more an OO language than Java, since in Python *everything* is an object - even functions, classes and modules. This makes a *big* difference. I think you are confusing terms. Class-based means that the language uses classes and class inheritance and not object prototyping (as in javascript): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_oriented#Prototype-based_models And why should functions be objects ? Actually, this makes it less OOP if we consider Smaltalk as being true OOP ;) Python is here more pragmatic but less OOP, please try to remember it. And haven't you heard of java.lang.Class or java.lang.reflect.Method ? Classes in Java *ARE* objects. Or do you think all those static methods and properties just pop out of the ground ? Voodoo maybe ? :) The reason classes don't behave as objects is because that's only usefull for reflection and meta-programming and that can be achieved by using the java.lang.reflect package which IMHO it really makes sense the way it was implemented. bruno modulix wrote Err... Python is more like what Java would have been if Java was a smart dynamic hi-level object oriented language !-) You see, I rarely see this kind of rubish on comp.lang.ruby. Shame on you. Do you realy think you are doing the Python community a favor by bashing Java ? troll And yeah, LOC count is stupid. Productivity in general measured in LOC is stupid. For that Java has a simple syntax which anyone can learn in only a few hours (simpler than Python's ... a lot imho) and tools like Eclipse, Netbeans, Studio Creator, JBuilder, etc ... /troll -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 22:35:33 -0500, Andy Leszczynski wrote: Steven D'Aprano wrote: Every line = more labour for the developer = more cost and time. Every line = more places for bugs to exist = more cost and time. The place I work at the creation rate is not a problem - we could crank out in the team 1000s lines a week. Good on you. I assume those thousands of lines are good ones, and not just churning out quantity instead of quality. In any case, no matter how fast you are, you will be faster if you have fewer lines to write. Most time we spend is on maintanance . This is where Pyton shines over Java/C++/Perl. It is easy to read thus maintane. Yes. Now imagine how much less maintenance you'd have to do with fewer lines. Of course, it is easy to take this to extremes. One thing which is a red rag to me is when folks have written perfectly good, efficient, fast, readable code in four lines, and then obsess how can I write this as a one-liner?. That way to the Dark Side goes: unreadable, cryptic, unmaintainable, buggy code. In any case, lines of code is a very poor metric for measuring programmer productivity. I'm not even so sure it is better than nothing -- in some cases, it is *worse* than nothing. -- Steven. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Il 2005-10-27, Andy Leszczynski leszczynscyATnospam.yahoo.com.nospam ha scritto: How Ruby solves the problem of global interpreter lock? AFAIK Ruby does not have those kind of problems, it does not have real threads but it emulates them via software -- Lawrence http://www.oluyede.org/blog -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Steven D'Aprano wrote: Every line = more labour for the developer = more cost and time. Every line = more places for bugs to exist = more cost and time. The place I work at the creation rate is not a problem - we could crank out in the team 1000s lines a week. Most time we spend is on maintanance . This is where Pyton shines over Java/C++/Perl. It is easy to read thus maintane. A. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Amol Vaidya wrote: Hi. I am interested in learning a new programming language, and have been debating whether to learn Ruby or Python. How do these compare and contrast with one another, and what advantages does one language provide over the other? I would like to consider as many opinions as I can on this matter before I start studying either language in depth. Any help/comments are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance for your help. How Ruby solves the problem of global interpreter lock? A. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Michael Ekstrand wrote:
On Friday 21 October 2005 07:07, bruno modulix wrote:
Python is more like Java.
troll
Err... Python is more like what Java would have been if Java was a
smart dynamic hi-level object oriented language !-)
/troll
+1. Python is easily applicable to most of the problem domain of Java,
but solves problems much more elegantly. It just isn't shipped embedded
in all leading browsers :-(.
It's been a long time since I last saw a Java applet on a website.
--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'.split('@')])
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Alex Martelli wrote:
(snip)
Here's a tiny script showing some similarities and differences:
def f()
i = 0
while i 100
j = 923567 + i
i += 1
end
end
f()
comment out the 'end' statements, and at colons
s/at/add/
at the end of the def
and while statements, and this is also valid Python.
--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'.split('@')])
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Tom Anderson wrote: On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, vdrab wrote: You can tell everything is well in the world of dynamic languages when someone posts a question with nuclear flame war potential like python vs. ruby and after a while people go off singing hymns about the beauty of Scheme... +1 QOTW I love this place. Someone should really try posting a similar question on c.l.perl and seeing how they react ... tom SSsh! Xah Lee might be listening! Iain -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Alex Martelli wrote: ... remember Pascal's Lettres Provinciales, and the famous apology about I am sorry that this letter is so long, but I did not have the time to write a shorter one!-) This observation applies to code too. I usually spend most of my time in making short programs that would have been long. This means: cutting off non-essential features (and you can discover that a feature is non essential only after having implemented it) and/or rethinking the problem to a superior level of abstraction (only possible after you have implented the lower level of abstraction). Michele Simionato -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Michele Simionato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alex Martelli wrote: ... remember Pascal's Lettres Provinciales, and the famous apology about I am sorry that this letter is so long, but I did not have the time to write a shorter one!-) This observation applies to code too. I usually spend most of my time in making short programs that would have been long. This means: Absolutely true. cutting off non-essential features (and you can discover that a feature is non essential only after having implemented it) This one is difficult if you have RELEASED the program with the feature you now want to remove, sigh. You end up with lots of deprecateds... somebody at Euro OSCON was saying that this was why they had dropped Java, many years ago -- each time they upgraded their Java SDK they found out that half their code used now-deprecated features. Still, I agree that (once in a while) accepting backwards incompatibility by removing features IS a good thing (and I look forwards a lot to Python 3.0!-). But -- the dream solution would be to work closely with customers from the start, XP-style, so features go into the code in descending order of urgence and importance and it's hardly ever necessary to remove them. and/or rethinking the problem to a superior level of abstraction (only possible after you have implented the lower level of abstraction). Yep, this one is truly crucial. But if I had do nominate ONE use case for making code smaller it would be: Once, And Only Once (aka Don't Repeat Yourself). Scan your code ceaselessly mercilessly looking for duplications and refactor just as mercilessly when you find them, abstracting the up into functions, base classes, etc... Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Alex Martelli: Michele Simionato: cutting off non-essential features (and you can discover that a feature is non essential only after having implemented it) This one is difficult if you have RELEASED the program with the feature you now want to remove, sigh. Yeah, but I used the wrong word features, which typically means end user features. Instead, I had in mind developer features, i.e. core features that will be called later in client code (I am in a framework mindset here). Typically I start with a small class, then the class becomes larger as I add features that will be useful for client code, then I discover than the class has become difficult to mantain. So I cut the features and and I implement them outside the class and the class becomes short again. However, I *cannot* know from the beginning what is the minimal set of features needed to make short the client code until I write a lot of client code. I can make things short only after I have made things long. I think this applies to me, to you, to Pascal and to everybody in general. It is impossible to start from the beginning with the short program, unless you already know the solution (that means, you have already written the long version in the past). Still, some naive people think there is a silver bullet or an easy way to avoid the hard work. They are naive ;) Michele Simionato -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Jorge Godoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alex Martelli) writes: forwards a lot to Python 3.0!-). But -- the dream solution would be to work closely with customers from the start, XP-style, so features go into the code in descending order of urgence and importance and it's hardly ever necessary to remove them. We do that often with two of our customers here. After the first changes, they asked for more. And them some other and when it finally ended, the project was like we had suggested, but instead of doing this directly, the client wanted to waste more money... :-( Even if we earnt more money, I'd rather have the first proposal accepted instead of wasting time working on what they called essential features. The customer is part of the team; if any player in the team is not performing well, the whole team's performance will suffer -- that's hardly surprising. You may want to focus more on _teaching_ the customer to best play his part in the feature-selection game, in the future... not easy, but important. But if I had do nominate ONE use case for making code smaller it would be: Once, And Only Once (aka Don't Repeat Yourself). Scan your code ceaselessly mercilessly looking for duplications and refactor just as mercilessly when you find them, abstracting the up into functions, base classes, etc... And I'd second that. Code can be drastically reduced this way and even better: it can be made more generic, more useful and robustness is improved. I'll second all of your observations on this!-) Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Mike Meyer wrote: There were studies done in the 70s that showed that programmers produced the same number of debugged lines of code a day no matter what language they used. So a language that lets you build the same program with fewer lines of code will let you build the program in less time. In my experience the LOC count is *far* less significant than the levels of indirections. Eg. how many levels of abstraction do I have to understand to follow a traceback, or to understand what a method relly does in a complex system. -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Mike Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
...
Of course, these results only apply where the complexity (e.g., number
of operators, for example) in a single line of code is constant.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. The tests ranged over
things from PL/I to assembler. Are you saying that those two languages
have the same complexity in a single line?
Not necessarily, since PL/I, for example, is quite capable of usages at
extremes of operator density per line. So, it doesn't even have the
same complexity as itself, if used in widely different layout styles.
If the studies imply otherwise, then I'm reminded of the fact that both
Galileo and Newton published alleged experimental data which can be
shown to be too good to be true (fits the theories too well, according
to chi-square tests etc)...
for item in sequence: blaap(item)
or
for item in sequence:
blaap(item)
are EXACTLY as easy (or hard) to write, maintain, and document -- it's
totally irrelevant that the number of lines of code has doubled in the
second (more standard) layout of the code!-)
The studies didn't deal with maintenance. They only dealt with
documentation in so far as code was commented.
On the other hand, studies of reading comprehension have shown that
people can read and comprehend faster if the line lengths fall within
certain ranges. While it's a stretch to assume those studies apply to
code, I'd personally be hesitant to assume they don't apply without
some reseach. If they do apply, then your claims about the difficulty
of maintaining and documenting being independent of the textual line
lengths are wrong. And since writing code inevitable involves
debugging it - and the studies specified debugged lines - then the
line length could affect how hard the code is to write as well.
If time to code depends on textual line lengths, then it cannot solely
depend on number of lines at the same time. If, as you say, the studies
prove that speed of delivering debugged code depends strictly on the
LOCs in the delivered code, then those studies would also be showing
that the textual length of the lines is irrelevant to that speed (since,
depending on coding styles, in most languages one can trade off
textually longer lines for fewer lines).
OTOH, the following mental experiment shows that the purported
deterministic connection of coding time to LOC can't really hold:
say that two programmers, Able and Baker, are given exactly the same
task to accomplish in (say) language C, and end up with exactly the same
correct source code for the resulting function;
Baker, being a honest toiling artisan, codes and debugs his code in
expansive style, with lots of line breaks (as lots of programming
shops practice), so, given the final code looks like:
while (foo())
{
bar();
baz();
}
(etc), he's coding 5 lines for each such loop;
Able, being able, codes and debugs extremely crammed code, so the same
final code looks, when Able is working on it, like:
while (foo()) { bar(); baz(); }
so, Able is coding 1 line for each such loop, 5 times less than Baker
(thus, by hypothesis, Able must be done 5 times faster);
when Able's done coding and debugging, he runs a code beautifier
utility which runs in negligible time (compared to the time it takes to
code and debug the program) and easily produces the same expansively
laid-out code as Baker worked with all the time.
So, Able is 5 times faster than Baker yet delivers identical final code,
based, please note, not on any substantial difference in skill, but
strictly on a trivial trick hinging on a popular and widely used kind of
code-reformatting utility.
Real-life observation suggests that working with extremely crammed code
(to minimize number of lines) and beautifying it at the end is in fact
not a sensible coding strategy and cannot deliver such huge increases in
coding (and debugging) speed. Thus, either those studies or your
reading of them must be fatally flawed in this respect (most likely,
some putting hands forward footnote about coding styles and tools in
use was omitted from the summaries, or neglected in the reading).
Such misunderstandings have seriously damaged the practice of
programming (and managements of programming) in the past. For example,
shops evaluating coders' productivity in terms of lines of code have
convinced their coders to distort their style to emit more lines of code
in order to be measured as more productive -- it's generally trivial to
do so, of course, in many cases, e.g.
for i in range(100):
a[i] = i*i
can easily become 100 lines a[0] = 0 and so on (easily produced by
copy and paste or editor macros, or other similarly trivial means). At
the other extreme, some coders (particularly in languages suitable for
extreme density, such as Perl) delight in producing one-liner
(unreadable) ``very clever'' equivalents of straightforward loops that
would take up a few lines if
Re: Python vs Ruby
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:03:29 +0100, Alex Stapleton wrote: On 21 Oct 2005, at 09:31, Harald Armin Massa wrote: Casey, I have heard, but have not been able to verify that if a program is about 10,000 lines in C++ it is about 5,000 lines in Java and it is about 3,000 lines in Python (Ruby to?) I suspect it is considerably less than that, although it depends on the specific code being written. BTW: it is normally only 50 lines in Perl. Not that you could read it, though Harald Perl is more like a CISC CPU. There are a million different commands. Python is more RISC like. Line count comparisons = pointless. Not so. Every line = more labour for the developer = more cost and time. Every line = more places for bugs to exist = more cost and time. I find it sometimes helps to imagine extreme cases. Suppose somebody comes to you and says Hi, I want you to develop a web scrapping application to run on my custom hardware. You look at the project specifications and realise that the hardware has no OS, no TCP/IP, no file manager, no compiler. So you have to quote the potential customer on writing all these layers of software, potentially tens of millions of lines of code. Even porting an existing OS to the new hardware is not an insignificant job. Think how much time and money it would take. On the other extreme, the client comes to you and asks the same thing, except the hardware is a stock-standard Linux-based PC. Your development environment already contains an operating system, a file manager, TCP/IP, compilers, frameworks... and wget. The work you need to do is potentially as little as writing down the command man wget on a slip of paper and pushing it across the table to your customer. As programming languages go, C is closer to the first extreme, C++ a little further away, Java further away still, because Java provides more capabilities already built-in that the C programmer has to create from scratch. For many tasks, Python provides even more capabilities, in a language that demands less syntax scaffolding to make things happen. Every line of code you don't have to write not only is a bug that just can't happen, but it also saves time and labour. -- Steven. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Steven D'Aprano [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:03:29 +0100, Alex Stapleton wrote: Perl is more like a CISC CPU. There are a million different commands. Python is more RISC like. Line count comparisons = pointless. Not so. Every line = more labour for the developer = more cost and time. Every line = more places for bugs to exist = more cost and time. There were studies done in the 70s that showed that programmers produced the same number of debugged lines of code a day no matter what language they used. So a language that lets you build the same program with fewer lines of code will let you build the program in less time. I find it sometimes helps to imagine extreme cases. Suppose somebody comes to you and says Hi, I want you to develop a web scrapping application to run on my custom hardware. You look at the project specifications and realise that the hardware has no OS, no TCP/IP, no file manager, no compiler. So you have to quote the potential customer on writing all these layers of software, potentially tens of millions of lines of code. Even porting an existing OS to the new hardware is not an insignificant job. Think how much time and money it would take. Then factor in the profits to be reaped from selling the ported OS/compilers :-). mike -- Mike Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Mike Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Every line = more labour for the developer = more cost and time.
Every line = more places for bugs to exist = more cost and time.
There were studies done in the 70s that showed that programmers
produced the same number of debugged lines of code a day no matter
what language they used. So a language that lets you build the same
program with fewer lines of code will let you build the program in
less time.
Of course, these results only apply where the complexity (e.g., number
of operators, for example) in a single line of code is constant. There
is no complexity advantage to wrapping up code to take fewer LINES, as
such -- e.g., in Python:
for item in sequence: blaap(item)
or
for item in sequence:
blaap(item)
are EXACTLY as easy (or hard) to write, maintain, and document -- it's
totally irrelevant that the number of lines of code has doubled in the
second (more standard) layout of the code!-)
This effect is even more pronounced in languages which allow or
encourage more extreme variation in packing of code over lines; e.g.,
C, where
for(x=0; x23; x++) { a=seq[x]; zap(a); blup(a); flep(a); }
and
for(x=0;
x23;
x++)
{
a=seq[x];
zap(a);
blup(a);
flep(a);
}
are both commonly used styles -- the order of magnitude difference in
lines of code is totally illusory.
Alex
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alex Martelli) writes: Mike Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Every line = more labour for the developer = more cost and time. Every line = more places for bugs to exist = more cost and time. There were studies done in the 70s that showed that programmers produced the same number of debugged lines of code a day no matter what language they used. So a language that lets you build the same program with fewer lines of code will let you build the program in less time. Of course, these results only apply where the complexity (e.g., number of operators, for example) in a single line of code is constant. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. The tests ranged over things from PL/I to assembler. Are you saying that those two languages have the same complexity in a single line? for item in sequence: blaap(item) or for item in sequence: blaap(item) are EXACTLY as easy (or hard) to write, maintain, and document -- it's totally irrelevant that the number of lines of code has doubled in the second (more standard) layout of the code!-) The studies didn't deal with maintenance. They only dealt with documentation in so far as code was commented. On the other hand, studies of reading comprehension have shown that people can read and comprehend faster if the line lengths fall within certain ranges. While it's a stretch to assume those studies apply to code, I'd personally be hesitant to assume they don't apply without some reseach. If they do apply, then your claims about the difficulty of maintaining and documenting being independent of the textual line lengths are wrong. And since writing code inevitable involves debugging it - and the studies specified debugged lines - then the line length could affect how hard the code is to write as well. mike -- Mike Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Tom Anderson: I have no idea what Scheme is, but I'll cettainly look it up as soon as I'm done writing this. You won't like it. Give yourself another 5-10 years, and you might start to find it strangely intriguing. +1 ;-) Michele Simionato -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Casey, I have heard, but have not been able to verify that if a program is about 10,000 lines in C++ it is about 5,000 lines in Java and it is about 3,000 lines in Python (Ruby to?) BTW: it is normally only 50 lines in Perl. Not that you could read it, though Harald -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Hallöchen! Harald Armin Massa [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Casey, I have heard, but have not been able to verify that if a program is about 10,000 lines in C++ it is about 5,000 lines in Java and it is about 3,000 lines in Python (Ruby to?) BTW: it is normally only 50 lines in Perl. Not that you could read it, though At least they could form a heart. Tschö, Torsten. -- Torsten Bronger, aquisgrana, europa vetusICQ 264-296-646 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Mike Meyer wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: other than haskell and SQL, the others are more or less the same to me so getting familiar with them is not too difficult. There are actually lots of good train your brain type languages. Members of the LISP family, for instance, to learn what you can do with lists, and also for how cool a real macro facility can be. I happen to like Scheme, but that's just me. I haven't actually done anything much in any LISP, but Scheme definitely looks like a winner to me - single namespace, generally cleaned-up language and library, etc. tom -- For one thing at least is almost certain about the future, namely, that very much of it will be such as we should call incredible. -- Olaf Stapledon -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
On 21 Oct 2005, at 09:31, Harald Armin Massa wrote: Casey, I have heard, but have not been able to verify that if a program is about 10,000 lines in C++ it is about 5,000 lines in Java and it is about 3,000 lines in Python (Ruby to?) BTW: it is normally only 50 lines in Perl. Not that you could read it, though Harald Perl is more like a CISC CPU. There are a million different commands. Python is more RISC like. Line count comparisons = pointless. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Amol Vaidya wrote:
Casey Hawthorne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
What languages do you know already?
What computer science concepts do you know?
What computer programming concepts do you know?
Have you heard of Scheme?
Ruby is a bit Perl like -- so if you like Perl, chances are you might
like Ruby.
Ruby is a whole lot Smalltalk-like -- so if you like Smalltalk... !-)
Python is more like Java.
troll
Err... Python is more like what Java would have been if Java was a smart
dynamic hi-level object oriented language !-)
/troll
I have heard, but have not been able to verify that if a program is
about
10,000 lines in C++
it is about
5,000 lines in Java
and it is about
3,000 lines in Python (Ruby to?)
For a whole lot of common tasks (like file IO etc), the Java/Python loc
ratio is between 5/1 and 10/1. Also, not having the dumbest type system
in the world, Python is naturally much more generic than Java, which
saves a lot of boilerplate code. I think that the real numbers would be
much like 5000 lines in Java - 1000 lines in Python - and probably 5000
- 500 in some cases.
I've done a lot of studying on my own, and taken the classes that my
high-school offers. I feel that I have a fairly good understanding of Java,
and basic OO concepts due to that.
IMHO
Err... I wouldn't start another HolyWar, but Java is not that Object
Oriented. 'Class-based' would be more appropriate. Python, while not
being class-based (ie: it doesn't impose that all code goes into a
'class' statement), is much more an OO language than Java, since in
Python *everything* is an object - even functions, classes and modules.
This makes a *big* difference.
So yes, you may have learned some basic 00 concepts with Java (classes,
instances, inheritence and polymorphism), but with Python and/or Ruby,
you will probably realize that there's much more in the OO paradigm than
all the Java world can dream of.
/IMHO
Well, I'm not sure what you mean by programming concepts. I'm familiar with
OO through Java, and procedural programming through C. I'd be more detailed,
but I'm not exactly sure what you are asking. Sorry.
patterns, metaclasses, aspects, closures, anonymous functions,
higher-order functions, multiple dispatch, properties (computed
attributes), generators, list expressions... does that ring a bell ?
I have no idea what Scheme is, but I'll cettainly look it up as soon as I'm
done writing this.
Scheme is a Lisp dialect - Lisp being one of the oldest programming
languages, and one of the most modern programming languages. Whatever
the latest overhyped revolutionary new silver bullet buzzword stuff, you
can bet your ass Lisp already had it many years ago.
Now Lisp never managed to make it to the mainstream... It's a language
(well, a familly of languages should I say) that is worth learning, but
probably not until you've become familiar with some Python features and
idioms.
Another language that failed to make it to the mainstream but is worth
giving a try is Smalltalk - the father of OOPLs (Simula being the
GrandFather). BTW, most of Ruby's feature have been happily stolen from
Smalltalk !-)
I've never given Perl a shot. It was another language I considered learning,
but my father's friend told me to go with Python or Ruby.
+1
--
bruno desthuilliers
ruby -e print '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'.split('@').collect{|p|
p.split('.').collect{|w| w.reverse}.join('.')}.join('@')
python -c print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'.split('@')])
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
On Friday 21 October 2005 07:07, bruno modulix wrote: Python is more like Java. troll Err... Python is more like what Java would have been if Java was a smart dynamic hi-level object oriented language !-) /troll +1. Python is easily applicable to most of the problem domain of Java, but solves problems much more elegantly. It just isn't shipped embedded in all leading browsers :-(. - Michael -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
bruno modulix [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Casey Hawthorne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I have heard, but have not been able to verify that if a program is about 10,000 lines in C++ it is about 5,000 lines in Java and it is about 3,000 lines in Python (Ruby to?) For a whole lot of common tasks (like file IO etc), the Java/Python loc ratio is between 5/1 and 10/1. Also, not having the dumbest type system in the world, Python is naturally much more generic than Java, which saves a lot of boilerplate code. I think that the real numbers would be much like 5000 lines in Java - 1000 lines in Python - and probably 5000 - 500 in some cases. I have here a library (it's the client side of a client-server interface including a pile of class definitions) which has implementations in pure C++, Java and Python, taking about 3000, 3500 and 1500 loc respectively. And there's an associated module (with no C++ implementation) that I remember being particular impressed while writing it to find being 3 times as long in Java as Python despite (a) extensive (and pretty much common) Javadoc/ docstrings and (b) implementing in the Python version a feature present in the standard Java library (scheduling a thread to run at specified intervals and time out). Strip the Javadoc/docstrings out and it's about at that 5:1 ratio. As for Ruby, looking at some of the comparisons given elsewhere in this thread, my intuition is that it would be more loc than Python due to all the explicit end s. -- \S -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chaos.org.uk/~sion/ ___ | Frankly I have no feelings towards penguins one way or the other \X/ |-- Arthur C. Clarke her nu becomeþ se bera eadward ofdun hlæddre heafdes bæce bump bump bump -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
You can tell everything is well in the world of dynamic languages when someone posts a question with nuclear flame war potential like python vs. ruby and after a while people go off singing hymns about the beauty of Scheme... I love this place. v. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, vdrab wrote: You can tell everything is well in the world of dynamic languages when someone posts a question with nuclear flame war potential like python vs. ruby and after a while people go off singing hymns about the beauty of Scheme... +1 QOTW I love this place. Someone should really try posting a similar question on c.l.perl and seeing how they react ... tom -- Transform your language. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
bruno modulix wrote: ... Another language that failed to make it to the mainstream but is worth giving a try is Smalltalk - the father of OOPLs (Simula being the GrandFather). I would say Simula is the forefather of modern OOPLs, and Smalltalk is the toofather. --Scott David Daniels [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Sion Arrowsmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have here a library (it's the client side of a client-server interface including a pile of class definitions) which has implementations in pure C++, Java and Python, taking about 3000, 3500 and 1500 loc respectively. And there's an associated module (with no C++ implementation) that I remember being particular impressed while writing it to find being 3 times as long in Java as Python despite (a) extensive (and pretty much common) Javadoc/ docstrings and (b) implementing in the Python version a feature present in the standard Java library (scheduling a thread to run at specified intervals and time out). Strip the Javadoc/docstrings out and it's about at that 5:1 ratio. This claim seems pretty dubious to me. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Bryan wrote: Dave Cook wrote: Cale? You mean Python has more ruffage? i think you mean kale not cale. nothing like a hot bowl of tofu kale soup while reading the recipes in the python cookbook. Well, if he's going to talk about ruffage instead of roughage, perhaps he really did mean cale and not kale. ;-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Casey Hawthorne wrote: I have heard, but have not been able to verify that if a program is about 10,000 lines in C++ it is about 5,000 lines in Java and it is about 3,000 lines in Python (Ruby to?) My experience is that Java:Python is roughly 2:1, the highest I have seen (on small bits of code) is 3:1. Kent -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Ed Jensen wrote: Sion Arrowsmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have here a library (it's the client side of a client-server interface including a pile of class definitions) which has implementations in pure C++, Java and Python, taking about 3000, 3500 and 1500 loc respectively. And there's an associated module (with no C++ implementation) that I remember being particular impressed while writing it to find being 3 times as long in Java as Python despite (a) extensive (and pretty much common) Javadoc/ docstrings and (b) implementing in the Python version a feature present in the standard Java library (scheduling a thread to run at specified intervals and time out). Strip the Javadoc/docstrings out and it's about at that 5:1 ratio. This claim seems pretty dubious to me. i would not say sion's ratio of 5:1 is dubious. for what it's worth, i've written i pretty complex program in jython over the last year. jython compiles to java source code and the number of generated java lines to the jython lines is 4:1. bryan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Amol Vaidya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi. I am interested in learning a new programming language, and have been debating whether to learn Ruby or Python. How do these compare and contrast with one another, and what advantages does one language provide over the other? I would like to consider as many opinions as I can on this matter before I start studying either language in depth. Any help/comments are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance for your help. Within the panorama of existing languages, Python and Ruby are just about as similar as two languages independently developed are likely to get (and then some -- there is clearly some minor mutual influence, e.g. Ruby probably picked 'def' for function definition partly-because that's what Python uses, and later Python may have picked 'yield' for generators partly-because that's what Ruby uses to have a method interact with a block it gets passed). They address the same niches and share most of the same strengths (and minor weaknesses). Pragmatically, Python is more mature -- with all sort of consequences, e.g., Python will be faster for many tasks (more time has been spent on optimizing it), more third-party libraries and tools are available, etc, but the Python community may be less easy to get into than the newer, smaller Ruby one, for example. Here's a tiny script showing some similarities and differences: def f() i = 0 while i 100 j = 923567 + i i += 1 end end f() comment out the 'end' statements, and at colons at the end of the def and while statements, and this is also valid Python. On my iBook...: Helen:~ alex$ time ruby -w tim.rb real0m5.367s user0m5.129s sys 0m0.041s while: Helen:~ alex$ time python tim.py real0m1.078s user0m0.953s sys 0m0.063s Note that this is NOT the normal way to loop in either language, so do NOT read too much into the reported times -- a 5:1 ratio is NOT normally observed on real tasks, though it IS reasonably normal for Python to be somewhat faster. BTW, this is Python 2.4.1 and Ruby 1.8.2. I'm pretty sure that the Ruby community at some point will go through much the same exercise the Python one did in the several years spent on the transitions 2.2 - 2.3 - 2.4 -- reduce the amount of change in the language and library and focus most development effort on optimization instead. I know of no intrinsic reason why Ruby and Python should not deliver just about equal performance for similar tasks, though the current implementations may not be equivalent (yet) from this POV. Python in recent years moved to enhance its object model (making it in some ways closer to Ruby) and iteration abilities (ditto), while Ruby moved to shed more and more of its Perl legacy (though in both cases legacy issues may have slowed down progress a little bit, yet for both languages the direction is clear). This makes the two languages more similar and to some extent interchangeable. Ruby has acquired a framework (Ruby on Rails) that makes it very desirable to implement database-backed web sites; while Python's running hot after it (e.g. with Django), for this specific task Rails is better today (e.g., you can get good _books_ about Rails, but not yet about Django). Ruby Gems is a good package management system that is fully operational today; again, Python's catching up, but it's not there yet. For other things, Python's existing base of third-party extensions and tools is above Ruby's. For example, Numeric (and numarray and scipy, etc) make Python excellent for heavy-duty number crunching, and I do not know of Ruby equivalents in this area; Twisted is a great framework for asynchronous network programming, and, again, it's a Python advantage; and so on, and so forth. However, there is a downside: for some tasks (e.g., web-site frameworks) Python has _too many_ good 3rd party extensions available, making it hard to choose among them! We can proceed to compare the languages themselves. Many differences are minor and cosmetic. Typically, Python is more specific, giving you fewer cosmetic choices: e.g., you must use parentheses in defining and calling functions, while, in Ruby, parentheses are optional (though often recommended) for these same tasks. Ruby's approach of having everything be an object on the same plane, infinitely modifiable until and unless explicitly frozen, is more regular, while Python's approach of giving slightly special status to built-in types and making them not modifiable dynamically is slightly less regular but may be more pragmatic. OTOH, Python's approach to callable objects (essentially making them all fully interchangeable) is the more regular of the two. Ruby's approach to iteration (passing the code block into a method) is essentially equivalent to Python's (iterators and generators), with several minor advantages and disadvantages on either side. One could go on for quite a long time, but to some extent these are all minor quibbles, nothing
Re: Python vs Ruby
Robert Boyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As if Plone, Zope, and (non-Python) Shibboleth weren't getting me enough funny looks. And I haven't even started telling co-workers about Django. A couple of years ago, a head-hunter asked me if I knew Plone. I figured he was just being an idiot and didn't know how to spell PL/1. Silly me :-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
On Friday 21 October 2005 04:25 pm, Ed Jensen wrote: Sion Arrowsmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have here a library (it's the client side of a client-server interface including a pile of class definitions) which has implementations in pure C++, Java and Python, taking about 3000, 3500 and 1500 loc respectively. And there's an associated module (with no C++ implementation) that I remember being particular impressed while writing it to find being 3 times as long in Java as Python despite (a) extensive (and pretty much common) Javadoc/ docstrings and (b) implementing in the Python version a feature present in the standard Java library (scheduling a thread to run at specified intervals and time out). Strip the Javadoc/docstrings out and it's about at that 5:1 ratio. This claim seems pretty dubious to me. Why? -- Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com ) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Bryan wrote: i would not say sion's ratio of 5:1 is dubious. for what it's worth, i've written i pretty complex program in jython over the last year. jython compiles to java source code and the number of generated java lines to the jython lines is 4:1. Ugh. The code generated by jythonc is *nothing like* the code you would write by hand to do the same thing. This is a meaningless comparison. Kent -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Bryan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i would not say sion's ratio of 5:1 is dubious. for what it's worth, i've written i pretty complex program in jython over the last year. jython compiles to java source code and the number of generated java lines to the jython lines is 4:1. Most code generators are known to produce non-optimal code. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
http://blog.ianbicking.org/ruby-python-power.html http://www.ruby-doc.org/RubyEyeForThePythonGuy.html http://onestepback.org/index.cgi/Tech/Ruby/PythonAndRuby.rdoc http://www.approximity.com/ruby/Comparison_rb_st_m_java.html http://www.jvoegele.com/software/langcomp.html http://reflectivesurface.com/weblog/2004/12/19/why-rails http://martinfowler.com/bliki/CollectionClosureMethod.html http://onestepback.org/articles/10things http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/avi/blogView?showComments=trueentry=3284695382 http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2005/08/27/Ruby http://pleac.sourceforge.net/ http://dev.rubycentral.com/faq/rubyfaq-2.html beza1e1 wrote: Depends on your experience. If you know C,C++,Java and the whole -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], bruno modulix [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bryan wrote: Amol Vaidya wrote: Hi. I am interested in learning a new programming language, and have been debating whether to learn Ruby or Python. (snip) why don't you do what i did? download ruby and spend a day or two reading programming ruby from www.ruby-lang.org/en. the download python and spend a day or two reading the python tuturial from www.python.org. Or better: DiveIntoPython . . . You've already been told all the essentials: that they're similar, that specific Web pages usefully contrast them, that *Dive into Python* and so on are worth reading, ... I want to emphasize particularly the wisdom of trying the two for yourself, to see how each fits your own tastes. This is practical advice; it truly is possible to have a meaningful experience with Python and/or Ruby over the course of a day. These languages are FAR more light-weight than, for example, C++, which typically requires weeks or months of practice before one truly gets it. While you won't know everything about, say, Ruby, in the first four hours, you *will* be able to write programs independently, and you'll have a feel for how the language works as a whole. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
What languages do you know already? What computer science concepts do you know? What computer programming concepts do you know? Have you heard of Scheme? Ruby is a bit Perl like -- so if you like Perl, chances are you might like Ruby. Python is more like Java. I have heard, but have not been able to verify that if a program is about 10,000 lines in C++ it is about 5,000 lines in Java and it is about 3,000 lines in Python (Ruby to?) Roy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Amol Vaidya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi. I am interested in learning a new programming language, and have been debating whether to learn Ruby or Python. How do these compare and contrast with one another, and what advantages does one language provide over the other? I would like to consider as many opinions as I can on this matter before I start studying either language in depth. Any help/comments are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance for your help. Of all the common scripting languages, Ruby has the highest vowel to consonant ratio. -- Regards, Casey -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Thank you for all the great information and links! I think I will do what a lot of you reccomended and try both for myself, the only problem is finding time with homework, college applications, and SATs coming up. I'll let you know how it turns out. Again, thank you all for the help. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Casey Hawthorne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] What languages do you know already? What computer science concepts do you know? What computer programming concepts do you know? Have you heard of Scheme? Ruby is a bit Perl like -- so if you like Perl, chances are you might like Ruby. Python is more like Java. I have heard, but have not been able to verify that if a program is about 10,000 lines in C++ it is about 5,000 lines in Java and it is about 3,000 lines in Python (Ruby to?) I've done a lot of studying on my own, and taken the classes that my high-school offers. I feel that I have a fairly good understanding of Java, and basic OO concepts due to that. I've created some semi-complex programs in java, in my opinion, such as networked checkers, 8-player blackjack, a space-shooter type game, a copy of mario (one level, anyway), and some other stuff. I've also done a bit of studying on C. I've done a few projects in C, including another space-shooter type of game using SDL, an IRC client and some simple database-type programs. I also gave a shot at assembly using NASM for x86 before, but didn't get too far. I wrote some trivial code -- wrote to the video buffer, played with some bios interrupts, stuff like that. The only thing I did in assembly was create a program that loads at boot-up, and loads another program that just reiterates whatever you type in. I only did that because I was curious. That's about as far as my programming knowledge/experience goes. Well, I'm not sure what you mean by programming concepts. I'm familiar with OO through Java, and procedural programming through C. I'd be more detailed, but I'm not exactly sure what you are asking. Sorry. I have no idea what Scheme is, but I'll cettainly look it up as soon as I'm done writing this. I've never given Perl a shot. It was another language I considered learning, but my father's friend told me to go with Python or Ruby. Thanks for your help. Hopefully I wasn't too lengthy in this post. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Amol Vaidya wrote: Casey Hawthorne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] What languages do you know already? What computer science concepts do you know? What computer programming concepts do you know? Have you heard of Scheme? Good questions! Ruby is a bit Perl like -- so if you like Perl, chances are you might like Ruby. I don't think rubyists would appreciate that description. Ruby may be heavier on the funky symbols than python, but it's a very clean, elegant, usable, well-thought-out and deeply object-oriented language - in other words, nothing at all like perl. Python is more like Java. Python is *nothing* like java. I have heard, but have not been able to verify that if a program is about 10,000 lines in C++ it is about 5,000 lines in Java and it is about 3,000 lines in Python (Ruby to?) ITYM 300. Yes, ruby too. I've done a lot of studying on my own, and taken the classes that my high-school offers. I feel that I have a fairly good understanding of Java, and basic OO concepts due to that. I've created some semi-complex programs in java, in my opinion, such as networked checkers, 8-player blackjack, a space-shooter type game, a copy of mario (one level, anyway), and some other stuff. I've also done a bit of studying on C. I've done a few projects in C, including another space-shooter type of game using SDL, an IRC client and some simple database-type programs. I also gave a shot at assembly using NASM for x86 before, but didn't get too far. I wrote some trivial code -- wrote to the video buffer, played with some bios interrupts, stuff like that. The only thing I did in assembly was create a program that loads at boot-up, and loads another program that just reiterates whatever you type in. I only did that because I was curious. That's about as far as my programming knowledge/experience goes. An excellent start! Well, I'm not sure what you mean by programming concepts. I'm familiar with OO through Java, and procedural programming through C. I'd be more detailed, but I'm not exactly sure what you are asking. Sorry. I think i know what Casey means, but i don't know if i can explain it any better. Do you understand the concept orthogonality? The Once And Only Once principle? Have you ever heard of design patterns? I have no idea what Scheme is, but I'll cettainly look it up as soon as I'm done writing this. You won't like it. Give yourself another 5-10 years, and you might start to find it strangely intriguing. I've never given Perl a shot. It was another language I considered learning, but my father's friend told me to go with Python or Ruby. Your father has good friends. Thanks for your help. Hopefully I wasn't too lengthy in this post. Lengthy is fine! Anyway, the upshot of all this is that, yes, you should learn python. Python is dope! tom -- NOW ALL ASS-KICKING UNTIL THE END -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
I don't think you really need to give to much time in weighting between python or Ruby. Both are fine. But Python has the obvious advantage that it has much more modules than Ruby so many things you don't need to implement if you have real work to do. I recommend you give haskell a shot if you are in to programming because it makes you think differently, not necessary better(at least not all the time) but helps. I am not sure your intention but I think there isn't a one language fits all situation here. I frequently use the following: C/C++ - for linux kernel hacking etc., many library out there still use it python - generic stuff SQL - nothing beats it for many business apps haskell - a language to train my brain javascript - Web front end other than haskell and SQL, the others are more or less the same to me so getting familiar with them is not too difficult. Amol Vaidya wrote: I've done a lot of studying on my own, and taken the classes that my high-school offers. I feel that I have a fairly good understanding of Java, and basic OO concepts due to that. I've created some semi-complex programs in java, in my opinion, such as networked checkers, 8-player blackjack, a space-shooter type game, a copy of mario (one level, anyway), and some other stuff. I've also done a bit of studying on C. I've done a few projects in C, including another space-shooter type of game using SDL, an IRC client and some simple database-type programs. I also gave a shot at assembly using NASM for x86 before, but didn't get too far. I wrote some trivial code -- wrote to the video buffer, played with some bios interrupts, stuff like that. The only thing I did in assembly was create a program that loads at boot-up, and loads another program that just reiterates whatever you type in. I only did that because I was curious. That's about as far as my programming knowledge/experience goes. Well, I'm not sure what you mean by programming concepts. I'm familiar with OO through Java, and procedural programming through C. I'd be more detailed, but I'm not exactly sure what you are asking. Sorry. I have no idea what Scheme is, but I'll cettainly look it up as soon as I'm done writing this. I've never given Perl a shot. It was another language I considered learning, but my father's friend told me to go with Python or Ruby. Thanks for your help. Hopefully I wasn't too lengthy in this post. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am not sure your intention but I think there isn't a one language fits all situation here. Very true. C/C++ - for linux kernel hacking etc., many library out there still use it python - generic stuff SQL - nothing beats it for many business apps haskell - a language to train my brain javascript - Web front end other than haskell and SQL, the others are more or less the same to me so getting familiar with them is not too difficult. There are actually lots of good train your brain type languages. Members of the LISP family, for instance, to learn what you can do with lists, and also for how cool a real macro facility can be. I happen to like Scheme, but that's just me. APL, for learning you can do with arrays. SNOBOL for old-school string processing and pattern matching. Icon for what you can do with failure. Eiffel for what you can do with objects and DbC. CLU for duck typing with declerations. Prolog for what you can do without writing commands. Oz includes a nice combination of a lot of these things. The best ones have a book associated with them that teaches general programming practices using said language as an example - and hopefully does a good job of it. I've only got four of those: Scheme: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, by Abelson, Sussman and Sussman. Commonly called SICP. Available online at URL: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html . Oz: Concepts, Techniques and Models of Computer Programming, by Van Roy and Haridi. Sometimes shortened to The Oz book. Read more about it at URL: http://www2.info.ucl.ac.be/people/PVR/book.html . Eiffel: Object Oriented Software Construction, by Bertrand Meyer. Referred to as OOSC. Read more about it at URL: http://archive.eiffel.com/doc/oosc/ . LISP: On LISP, by Paul Graham. Download it at URL: http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisp.html . The first three are books about programming that happen to use a specific language that supports the techniques the authors want to discuss. On LISP on the other hand is more about what's unique about LISP programming, at least when compared to more conventional languages. A lot of what's good about LISP is also good about Python, so a lot of what he has to say carries over into Python. It's also the only place to get a thorough look at LISP macro programming, which knowledge does *not* carry over into Python - but you'll understand why people ask for macros in Python :-). If you know of some book/language pair that you think everyone would benefit from reading, I'd be interested in hearing about them. mike -- Mike Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Bryan wrote:
Amol Vaidya wrote:
Hi. I am interested in learning a new programming language, and have
been debating whether to learn Ruby or Python.
(snip)
why don't you do what i did? download ruby and spend a day or two
reading programming ruby from www.ruby-lang.org/en. the download
python and spend a day or two reading the python tuturial from
www.python.org.
Or better: DiveIntoPython
--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'.split('@')])
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Amol Vaidya wrote:
Hi. I am interested in learning a new programming language, and have been
debating whether to learn Ruby or Python. How do these compare and contrast
with one another, and what advantages does one language provide over the
other? I would like to consider as many opinions as I can on this matter
before I start studying either language in depth. Any help/comments are
greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance for your help.
The main point about advantages is that Python has a larger community,
a larger choice of libraries, and is somewhat more mature (which is not
surprising since Python is a little bit older than Ruby).
Else, both are hi-level highly dynamic object oriented languages, both
are fun to program with, and both are easy to get started with. So the
best thing to do is to give both a try and go with the one that fits
your brain.
--
bruno desthuilliers
ruby -e print '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'.split('@').collect{|p|
p.split('.').collect{|w| w.reverse}.join('.')}.join('@')
python -c print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'.split('@')])
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Depends on your experience. If you know C,C++,Java and the whole C-syntax-bunch. I'd recommend Python just to learn to adapt a different syntax. If you want to learn for the learnings sake, i'd also recommend Haskell to try functional programming, if you do not already know it. Ruby has some interesting concepts, Python (well CPython) does not have. Blocks for example, which make Continuations possible. In Python you need stackless Python (a different implementation) to do this. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Amol Vaidya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi. I am interested in learning a new programming language, and have been debating whether to learn Ruby or Python. How do these compare and contrast with one another, and what advantages does one language provide over the other? I would like to consider as many opinions as I can on this matter before I start studying either language in depth. Any help/comments are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance for your help. Of all the common scripting languages, Ruby has the highest vowel to consonant ratio. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
I'd believe that would be Lua, but then again what is common to one might not be to another ;-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], jean-marc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd believe that would be Lua, but then again what is common to one might not be to another ;-) Dang, you're right! Lua's got Ruby beat two-fold! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
On Oct 19, 2005, at 10:01 PM, Roy Smith wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], jean-marc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd believe that would be Lua, but then again what is common to one might not be to another ;-) Dang, you're right! Lua's got Ruby beat two-fold! And lack of vowels is definitive proof that PHP is not-so-good, right? How can we improve Python's competitiveness in this arena? Pie? Or can we do even better than Lua? Ptooey! - Jason -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Amol Vaidya wrote: Hi. I am interested in learning a new programming language, and have been debating whether to learn Ruby or Python. How do these compare and contrast with one another, and what advantages does one language provide over the other? I would like to consider as many opinions as I can on this matter before I start studying either language in depth. Any help/comments are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance for your help. why don't you do what i did? download ruby and spend a day or two reading programming ruby from www.ruby-lang.org/en. the download python and spend a day or two reading the python tuturial from www.python.org. they are very similar languages and it's going to come down to your personal perference. for me personally, ruby did not fit in my brain and python did. i used the how many times did i have to flip back to a previous page in the manual/tutorial and reread a section test. with ruby, once i got about one third of the way through the manual, i had to constantly reread previous sections. with python, not once did i need to reread a previous section. therefore, python was the obvious choice for me. bryan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
As you see, pythonistas are a nice humourous bunch... But to help a bit more in your balancing act you might take a look at: http://blog.ianbicking.org/ruby-python-power.html It's rather nice, and commented. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Languages are very similar but Python has more cale avaliable. Much more. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
On 2005-10-20, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Languages are very similar but Python has more cale avaliable. Much more. Cale? You mean Python has more ruffage? Dave Cook -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Dave Cook wrote: On 2005-10-20, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Languages are very similar but Python has more cale avaliable. Much more. Cale? You mean Python has more ruffage? Dave Cook i think you mean kale not cale. nothing like a hot bowl of tofu kale soup while reading the recipes in the python cookbook. bryan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
