Re: YAML in std lib?

[Paul Rubin]

Ben Finney  writes:
> I don't know of any PEP yet which specifies exactly what to add to the
> standard library for YAML

YAML is more of a Ruby thing, so there might not be much constituency
for putting it in Python.
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Re: YAML in std lib?

[Skip Montanaro]

In addition to the reasons given by Steve, Paul, and others, the
barrier to entry to the standard library has grown as the domains to
which Python is applied have increased. To justify the maintenance
effort, when considering a module or package for inclusion in the
standard library, you want it to be as broadly useful as possible. Is
YAML widely enough used in domains as varied as web application
development, bioinformatics, and machine learning to justify its
inclusion in the standard library? Maybe not. In addition, I suspect
more and more people are using virtual environments of one sort or
another. When constructing such environments it's pretty trivial to
tailor them to contain just those modules and packages appropriate to
a particular task. I use Conda environments almost exclusively these
days. It frees me from the glacial pace of updates to the default
Python installation at work (stuck on 2.7.2).

Skip
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Re: YAML in std lib?

[Lele Gaifax]

Paul  Moore  writes:

> As I understand it, YAML as a markup language is not as popular as it once
> was.

Given all the hype around Docker these days, I'm not convinced that's true :)

> In addition, the main YAML library on PyPI is PyYAML

There is fork, https://pypi.python.org/pypi/ruamel.yaml, that seems actively
maintained: it supports YAML 1.2 for example.

But I agree with you, I do not see a good enough reason to include it in the
standard library.

ciao, lele.
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real: Emanuele Gaifas | comincerò ad aver paura di chi mi copia.
l...@metapensiero.it  | -- Fortunato Depero, 1929.

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Re: YAML in std lib?

[Paul Moore]

On Sunday, 30 July 2017 07:21:00 UTC+1, Steve D'Aprano  wrote:
> 1.  Perhaps nobody has thought of it.
> 
> 2.  The author of the library refused to allow it, or demanded
> conditions which the Python developers either cannot or will
> not meet.
> 
> 3.  The library is under rapid development with a release cycle 
> faster than Python's standard library.
> 
> 4.  There may be technical reasons (e.g. code quality, external 
> dependencies) why it isn't added.
> 
> 5.  There may be no consensus among the core developers that this
> library is important enough to include.
> 
> 6.  Or no agreement about which library to use (if there are
> more than one).
> 
> 7.  The library is for too small a niche to bother.
> 
> 8.  There may be problems with the legal status of the library, 
> including legality of the software, copyright, patents, etc.
> 
> 9.  Or it may be only available under a proprietary, closed-source
> licence that is incompatible with Python's open source licence.
> 
> 10. There may be nobody willing to maintain the library once it
> is accepted.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure which ones apply to YAML. If I were to guess, my guess would be
> either 5 or 6.

I'd add 4 and 10 as possible issues.

Getting a 3rd party library included into the stdlib also needs to pass the 
test of "why isn't it sufficient to depend on a library on PyPI?"

As I understand it, YAML as a markup language is not as popular as it once was. 
There have been concerns expressed about its complexity, and the spec seems to 
have stagnated (the last update noted yaml.org was in 2011, and many libraries 
still seem to stick to YAML 1.1, when 1.2 has been out for years). In general, 
I get the impression that YAML is a great idea if you stick to "the bits that I 
like" - but unfortunately, different people like different bits :-)

So the first issue is that there's not enough momentum behind YAML as a markup 
standard to warrant it being in the stdlib.

In addition, the main YAML library on PyPI is PyYAML, and my understanding is 
that it had some reliability issues (crashes on certain malformed input?) that 
took a long time to get fixed. So there's code quality and maintenance 
commitment issues to be addressed (it's entirely possible that those issues are 
now resolved, but that needs to be confirmed). Furthermore, it uses a C library 
(libyaml) as an accelerator, which makes the process of bringing it into the 
stdlib even more complex.

Long story short - there's not enough benefit over "pip install pyyaml" to 
justify it, even if someone (either the library author, or someone with the 
author's support) had spent the time putting together a concrete proposal.

Paul
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Re: YAML in std lib?

[Ben Finney]

Steve D'Aprano  writes:

> On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 01:27 am, Goldstein wrote:
>
> > I'm new in this mailing list and, in fact, I've registered for one
> > simple question. Why YAML is not yet included in the standard Python
> > library? It's the most pythonic markup language, I think, and it's
> > pretty popular.
>
> There are many reasons why a particular library may not be included in the
> standard library:

Those are all reasons worth considering. Most of them, though, are
reasons why a proposal to include something in the Python standard
library might be *rejected* after being proposed for discussion.


Including something in the standard library needs to be discussed in the
context of a specific proposal. There is a procedure for that: the
Python Enhancement Proposal .

So, an important reason to consider: Perhaps no-one has developed and
championed a specific Python Enhancement Proposal for including that in
the standard library.

I don't know of any PEP yet which specifies exactly what to add to the
standard library for YAML (and how to ensure it continues to be
maintained in the standard library). There may have been vague requests
for “can we have PyYAML in the standard library?”, but those are void in
this context, because that's not what actually gets the discussion
looking at specifics.

My advice to the original poster: Have a search for past proposals and
see what discussion ensued. If there was no such proposal, try writing
one and championing it.

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  `\But if I did, well, really, what's it to you?” —Leonard Cohen, |
_o__) _Hallelujah_ |
Ben Finney

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Re: YAML in std lib?

[Steve D'Aprano]

On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 01:27 am, Goldstein wrote:

> Hello.
> I'm new in this mailing list and, in fact, I've registered for one simple
> question. Why YAML is not yet included in the standard Python library?
> It's the most pythonic markup language, I think, and it's pretty popular.

There are many reasons why a particular library may not be included in the
standard library:


1.  Perhaps nobody has thought of it.

2.  The author of the library refused to allow it, or demanded
conditions which the Python developers either cannot or will
not meet.

3.  The library is under rapid development with a release cycle 
faster than Python's standard library.

4.  There may be technical reasons (e.g. code quality, external 
dependencies) why it isn't added.

5.  There may be no consensus among the core developers that this
library is important enough to include.

6.  Or no agreement about which library to use (if there are
more than one).

7.  The library is for too small a niche to bother.

8.  There may be problems with the legal status of the library, 
including legality of the software, copyright, patents, etc.

9.  Or it may be only available under a proprietary, closed-source
licence that is incompatible with Python's open source licence.

10. There may be nobody willing to maintain the library once it
is accepted.


I'm not sure which ones apply to YAML. If I were to guess, my guess would be
either 5 or 6.



-- 
Steve
“Cheer up,” they said, “things could be worse.” So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.

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Re: YAML in std lib?

[Terry Reedy]

On 7/29/2017 11:27 AM, Goldstein wrote:

Hello.
I'm new in this mailing list and, in fact, I've registered for one simple 
question.
Why YAML is not yet included in the standard Python library?
It's the most pythonic markup language, I think, and it's pretty popular.


You can get yaml package(s) on pypi.python.org and probably install with 
pip.




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Terry Jan Reedy

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