Re: we want python software

[Percival John Hackworth]

On 05-Dec-2017, km wrote
(in article):

> I dont know how these students are selected into b tech stream in India.
> they are so dumb. All they know is a to open a program we need to double
> click it and it runs.- windoze legacy. most of the time they pay huge
> amount to a greedy college and get into tech stream.
> Now that Java boom (jobs) is over in India and python is booming in AI and
> machine learning these people want to learn python and get easy jobs
> (software coolies). pls dont even entertain such posts.
A friend who deals with outsource Indian developers told me something
interesting. Apparently, the programmers are paid very poorly in India.
Managers are paid much better. So the career path over there is to "pay your
dues" writing code, then become a manager where you no longer have to write
code. It means that all the product teams that are outsourced to India
*always* get new, green people because as soon as they get any good, they
become managers.

That explains a lot, doesn't it. It also means when your company lays off a lot
 of technical staff and outsources tech pubs, 1st line support, and development
 to India, the people left in the US are the "Tiger Team" to fix screw ups or
major issues in a product release. Then they sell the company.

Another friend hired a programmer from India to develop a java-based web site
to sell their product in the iOS App Store. He asked me to look at problems
they were having with the site. I'm a sysadmin, not a java programmer, but I
knew that you're not supposed to run a Tomcat web server as root. According to
friends, you're not supposed to expose Tomcat to the internet at all. That's
not what this developer did. It looked like it was a school project that he
setup stuff but didn't know how it's done in production with security enabled.
Nor could he deal with AWS.

It's a nightmare out there for people looking to get development done "on the
cheap". The good people (e.g. the friends I asked for advice) are to busy to do
 such little projects to bother. So the market is left with Junior people in
India making crap. It's not a question of them taking jobs away from U.S.
developers. It's a question of the good ones already have work. Can we train
Joe to setup Wordpress and secure it or write a Java Web site when all he's
done before is manufacturing or worked in a grocery store.

Other groups aren't so nice to beginners - the perl group is brutal and tell a
student to do their own homework. I'm just dipping my toe into python here and
you guys more helpful. Mostly because there's so much possibility in python
(compared to other scripting languages).

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Re: we want python software

[Steve D'Aprano]

On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 03:45 pm, Abhiram R wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 10:08 AM, km  wrote:
>
>> I dont know how these students are selected into b tech stream in India.
>> they are so dumb. All they know is a to open a program we need to double
>> click it and it runs.
>>
>> We were all once "dumb". We learnt it because someone Taught us.


Since you're so open to being corrected, let me remind you to read your posts
before sending. Somehow you managed to introduce an extra > quote marker at the
 beginning of your own comment, (the line starting "We were all once...").
Check it out here:

https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2017-December/729112.html

and you will see that your comment is quoted, as if it were written by the
person you are replying to.

(Normally I wouldn't bother mentioning something so trivial, but since you make
 the excellent point that we don't learn to correct mistakes unless we have
them pointed out, I thought I'd do so.)


> I'd rather not entertain such or refrain from condescending replies

I think you have misunderstood the word "condescending".

It is condescending to assume that the OP, Jyothiswaroop Reddy, is a fragile
and delicate little hothouse flower that needs protecting from reality where
people will tell you "Don't be so lazy and don't waste our time".

I prefer to expect more of people and let them meet my expectations, than to
downgrade my expectations and coddle them into a spiral of lower and lower
competence and ability.

(By the way Rustom, if you're reading, thank you for that link to the video a
few weeks ago about teaching 2 + 2 = 22. My blood pressure just about doubled
watching it.)




--
Steve
â £Cheer up,â Ø they said, â £things could be worse.â Ø So I cheered up, and
sure
enough, things got worse.

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Re: we want python software

[Ethan Furman]

On 12/05/2017 09:27 PM, km wrote:

[snip]

Many things in this world are frustrating, but being hateful will not solve
anything.  Please control yourself.

--
~Ethan~

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Re: we want python software

[Rustom Mody]

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 3:10:24 AM UTC+5:30, Igor Korot wrote:
> Hi, Tony,
>
> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 11:10 AM, Tony van der Hoff  wrote:
> > On 05/12/17 16:55, Igor Korot wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Jyothiswaroop Reddy wrote:
> >>> Sir,
> >>> I am b.tech student I would like to learn python. So please send
the python software.
> >> Sorry, we don't send anything. You will have to go get it yourself. -)
> >>
> > Well, at least try to be helpful:
> > https://www.python.org/downloads/
>
> This is LMGIFY.
> If they say they are tech students - they should know how to work with
Google.
>
> And I even tried to be polite. I should have probably write something like:
>
> 1. Open the Web browser.
> 2. In the "Address Bar" type "www.pyton.org".
> 3. Find the link which reads "Downloads". Click on it.
> 4. Carefully read what version you need to install for your OS.
> 5. Apply the acquired knowledge and download the appropriate version.
> 6. Click on the installer (if on Windows).
> 7. Follow all the prompts.
> 8. Enjoy.
>
> but this is too much for the tech student.

You are assuming that the strangeness of the request is about 'tech'
[engineering/tech existed centuries before computers]

Do remember one can be a tech-{student,professional} without
- ever having encountered free-software
- internet/USENET culture

â | from which pov the request would not look so odd

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Re: we want python software

[Abhiram R]

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 10:08 AM, km  wrote:

> I dont know how these students are selected into b tech stream in India.
> they are so dumb. All they know is a to open a program we need to double
> click it and it runs.
>
> â ïWe were all once "dumb". We learnt it because someone Taught us. I'd
rather not entertain such or refrain from condescending replies that would
further discourage people from trying to get into the field. With all the
emphasis on the Python "community", it's important not to be so dismissive.


Thanks
Abhiram â ï




>
>
> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 9:19 AM, Rustom Mody  wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 3:10:24 AM UTC+5:30, Igor Korot wrote:
> > > Hi, Tony,
> > >
> > > On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 11:10 AM, Tony van der Hoff  wrote:
> > > > On 05/12/17 16:55, Igor Korot wrote:
> > > >> Hi,
> > > >>
> > > >> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Jyothiswaroop Reddy wrote:
> > > >>> Sir,
> > > >>> I am b.tech student I would like to learn python. So please
> > send the python software.
> > > >> Sorry, we don't send anything. You will have to go get it yourself.
> -)
> > > >>
> > > > Well, at least try to be helpful:
> > > > https://www.python.org/downloads/
> > >
> > > This is LMGIFY.
> > > If they say they are tech students - they should know how to work with
> > Google.
> > >
> > > And I even tried to be polite. I should have probably write something
> > like:
> > >
> > > 1. Open the Web browser.
> > > 2. In the "Address Bar" type "www.pyton.org".
> > > 3. Find the link which reads "Downloads". Click on it.
> > > 4. Carefully read what version you need to install for your OS.
> > > 5. Apply the acquired knowledge and download the appropriate version.
> > > 6. Click on the installer (if on Windows).
> > > 7. Follow all the prompts.
> > > 8. Enjoy.
> > >
> > > but this is too much for the tech student.
> >
> > You are assuming that the strangeness of the request is about 'tech'
> > [engineering/tech existed centuries before computers]
> >
> > Do remember one can be a tech-{student,professional} without
> > - ever having encountered free-software
> > - internet/USENET culture
> >
> > â | from which pov the request would not look so odd
> >
> > --
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> >
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>



--
-Abhiram R
áÉ$

-- 
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Re: we want python software

[Tony van der Hoff]

On 05/12/17 16:55, Igor Korot wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Jyothiswaroop Reddy
>  wrote:
>> Sir,
>> I am b.tech student I would like to learn python. So please send the
python software.
> Sorry, we don't send anything. You will have to go get it yourself. -)
>
Well, at least try to be helpful:
https://www.python.org/downloads/

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Re: we want python software

[Igor Korot]

Hi, Tony,

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 11:10 AM, Tony van der Hoff 
wrote:
> On 05/12/17 16:55, Igor Korot wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Jyothiswaroop Reddy
>>  wrote:
>>> Sir,
>>> I am b.tech student I would like to learn python. So please send
the python software.
>> Sorry, we don't send anything. You will have to go get it yourself. -)
>>
> Well, at least try to be helpful:
> https://www.python.org/downloads/

This is LMGIFY.
If they say they are tech students - they should know how to work with Google.

And I even tried to be polite. I should have probably write something like:

1. Open the Web browser.
2. In the "Address Bar" type "www.pyton.org". 3. Find the link which reads
"Downloads". Click on it. 4. Carefully read what version you need to install
for your OS. 5. Apply the acquired knowledge and download the appropriate
version. 6. Click on the installer (if on Windows). 7. Follow all the prompts.
8. Enjoy.

but this is too much for the tech student.

Thank you.

> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

-- 
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Re: we want python software

[Karsten Hilbert]

> > A junior programmer sees the unlimited possibilities of programming. No
> > montain is too high to climb.
> >
> > A seasoned programmer is elated if they can get anything to work at all.

Good judgement comes from experience. And a lot of that comes
from bad judgement.

Karsten
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Re: we want python software

[Chris Angelico]

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 6:54 PM, Marko Rauhamaa  wrote:
> Gregory Ewing :
>
>> Rick Johnson wrote:
>>> DOLT: "Programming is easy! Once you learn the langauge,
>>> it's just a matter of fill-in-the-blanks."
>>
>> To be fair to this person, for someone who has a natural aptitude for
>> programming, it can be difficult to appreciate how hard it is for
>> people who don't.
>>
>> When I first started programming, in my early teens, the basic ideas
>> all seemed very straightforward, and I had no trouble seeing how to
>> apply them. I unconsciously assumed it would be the same for anyone
>> else with a reasonable level of intelligence.
>>
>> It was a while before it became clear to me that this is not the case
>> at all.
>
> A junior programmer sees the unlimited possibilities of programming. No
> montain is too high to climb.
>
> A seasoned programmer is elated if they can get anything to work at all.
>

And an expert programmer sees that those mountains are so full of bugs
they're better described as ant-hills...

ChrisA
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Re: we want python software

[Marko Rauhamaa]

Gregory Ewing :

> Rick Johnson wrote:
>> DOLT: "Programming is easy! Once you learn the langauge,
>> it's just a matter of fill-in-the-blanks."
>
> To be fair to this person, for someone who has a natural aptitude for
> programming, it can be difficult to appreciate how hard it is for
> people who don't.
>
> When I first started programming, in my early teens, the basic ideas
> all seemed very straightforward, and I had no trouble seeing how to
> apply them. I unconsciously assumed it would be the same for anyone
> else with a reasonable level of intelligence.
>
> It was a while before it became clear to me that this is not the case
> at all.

A junior programmer sees the unlimited possibilities of programming. No
montain is too high to climb.

A seasoned programmer is elated if they can get anything to work at all.


Marko
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Re: we want python software

[Ben Finney]

Ethan Furman  writes:

> On 12/06/2017 08:33 AM, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>
> > I'm going to defend KM (srikrishnamohan) -- his comments were not "an 
> > attack",
>
> On 12/05/2017 08:38 PM, km wrote:
> > I dont know how these students are selected into b tech stream in India.
> > they are so dumb.
>
> On 12/05/2017 09:27 PM, km wrote:
> > You people can Google and watch movies / songs online  and you can't find
> > how to download and install python ? That's ridiculous!
>
> Really, Steve?

I'm with Ethan; “km” took what appears to be a sincere request from a
newcomer, and responded with what I'd classify as personal attacks.

That is both unnecessary for the substance of “km”'s points, and
contrary to our Code of Conduct. Let's not defend that behaviour.

-- 
 \ “Nothing worth saying is inoffensive to everyone. Nothing worth |
  `\saying will fail to make you enemies. And nothing worth saying |
_o__)will not produce a confrontation.” —Johann Hari, 2011 |
Ben Finney

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Re: we want python software

[Ethan Furman]

On 12/06/2017 08:33 AM, Steve D'Aprano wrote:


I'm going to defend KM (srikrishnamohan) -- his comments were not "an attack",


On 12/05/2017 08:38 PM, km wrote:
> I dont know how these students are selected into b tech stream in India.
> they are so dumb.

On 12/05/2017 09:27 PM, km wrote:
> You people can Google and watch movies / songs online  and you can't find
> how to download and install python ? That's ridiculous!

Really, Steve?

--
~Ethan~
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: we want python software

[Rick Johnson]

Gregory Ewing wrote:

[...]

> To be fair to this person, for someone who has a natural
> aptitude for programming, it can be difficult to appreciate
> how hard it is for people who don't.  When I first started
> programming, in my early teens, the basic ideas all seemed
> very straightforward, and I had no trouble seeing how to
> apply them. I unconsciously assumed it would be the same
> for anyone else with a reasonable level of intelligence.
> It was a while before it became clear to me that this is
> not the case at all.

Indeed. It's not simply a matter of being intelligent
"enough". A prospect must also possess some very specific
innate skills and personality traits. And these attributes
simply cannot be taught. You either have them, or you don't.

That's why these huge advertising campaigns to bring new
folk into the programming arts have been a total flop. I
guess you can teach anybody how to be a code monkey, but
without a bonafide software engineer on the team directing
the Orcestrial Circus (ook-ook!), not much will get done. I
can't imagine how awful it would be to stand over people's
shoulder all day and tell them how to write each and every
line of code. That's not what any software engineer was born
to do. It's just shameful.

--

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Re: we want python software

[Andrew Z]

Can we mark the entire thread "spam", please?


On Dec 6, 2017 17:55, "Gregory Ewing"  wrote:

> Rick Johnson wrote:
>
> DOLT: "Programming is easy! Once you learn the langauge,
>> it's just a matter of fill-in-the-blanks."
>>
>
> To be fair to this person, for someone who has a natural
> aptitude for programming, it can be difficult to appreciate
> how hard it is for people who don't.
>
> When I first started programming, in my early teens, the
> basic ideas all seemed very straightforward, and I had
> no trouble seeing how to apply them. I unconsciously
> assumed it would be the same for anyone else with a
> reasonable level of intelligence.
>
> It was a while before it became clear to me that this is
> not the case at all.
>
> --
> Greg
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
-- 
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Re: we want python software

[Gregory Ewing]

Rick Johnson wrote:


DOLT: "Programming is easy! Once you learn the langauge,
it's just a matter of fill-in-the-blanks."


To be fair to this person, for someone who has a natural
aptitude for programming, it can be difficult to appreciate
how hard it is for people who don't.

When I first started programming, in my early teens, the
basic ideas all seemed very straightforward, and I had
no trouble seeing how to apply them. I unconsciously
assumed it would be the same for anyone else with a
reasonable level of intelligence.

It was a while before it became clear to me that this is
not the case at all.

--
Greg
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: we want python software

[Chris Angelico]

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 9:21 AM, Terry Reedy  wrote:
> On 12/5/2017 4:39 PM, Igor Korot wrote:
>>
>> Hi, Tony,
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 11:10 AM, Tony van der Hoff 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 05/12/17 16:55, Igor Korot wrote:

 Hi,

 On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Jyothiswaroop Reddy
  wrote:
>
> Sir,
>  I am b.tech student I would like to learn python. So please
> send the python software.

 Sorry, we don't send anything. You will have to go get it yourself. -)

>>> Well, at least try to be helpful:
>>> https://www.python.org/downloads/
>>
>>
>> This is LMGIFY.
>> If they say they are tech students - they should know how to work with
>> Google.
>>
>> And I even tried to be polite. I should have probably write something
>> like:
>>
>> 1. Open the Web browser.
>> 2. In the "Address Bar" type "www.pyton.org".
>
>
> Fortunately, this wrong url does not currently lead to a fake site with
> malware binaries.

Which is why I recommend using a search engine. I tried four of them
on the misspelled word "pyton", and all four had www.python.org
(correctly spelled) as the first non-sponsored link.

ChrisA
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Re: we want python software

[Terry Reedy]

On 12/5/2017 4:39 PM, Igor Korot wrote:

Hi, Tony,

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 11:10 AM, Tony van der Hoff  wrote:

On 05/12/17 16:55, Igor Korot wrote:

Hi,

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Jyothiswaroop Reddy
 wrote:

Sir,
 I am b.tech student I would like to learn python. So please send the 
python software.

Sorry, we don't send anything. You will have to go get it yourself. -)


Well, at least try to be helpful:
https://www.python.org/downloads/


This is LMGIFY.
If they say they are tech students - they should know how to work with Google.

And I even tried to be polite. I should have probably write something like:

1. Open the Web browser.
2. In the "Address Bar" type "www.pyton.org".


Fortunately, this wrong url does not currently lead to a fake site with 
malware binaries.



3. Find the link which reads "Downloads". Click on it.
4. Carefully read what version you need to install for your OS.
5. Apply the acquired knowledge and download the appropriate version.
6. Click on the installer (if on Windows).
7. Follow all the prompts.
8. Enjoy.

but this is too much for the tech student.

Thank you.


--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



--
Terry Jan Reedy

--
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Re: we want python software

[Chris Angelico]

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 3:33 AM, Steve D'Aprano
 wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 04:54 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 4:27 PM, km  wrote:
>>> Remember that you are wasting time of lakhs of  python subscribers by
>>> asking such dumb questions being tech students.  You people can Google and
>>> watch movies / songs online  and you can't find how to download and install
>>> python ? That's ridiculous!
>>>
>>
>> This attack is unwarranted. Please don't set fire to people simply
>> because they asked a question like this.
>
> I'm going to defend KM (srikrishnamohan) -- his comments were not "an attack",
> they are a well-deserved criticism of a *tech student* who apparently made
> zero effort to find out how to download Python before asking others to do it
> for him.
>
> I'm sorry for the length of this post. It is trivially easy to sink the boots
> in and tell KM off for his blunt criticism of the OP's request. But in the
> face of this hostile environment (out of the nine people who responded to
> this thread, no fewer than three have piled onto KM to tell him off), it
> isn't so easy to get through the message of why we shouldn't always coddle
> people asking questions like that asked by the OP, and why KM's response was
> tough but fair.

I was the first to tell KM off, so I wasn't "piling on". The others
may or may not have been aware of my post at the time they made
theirs. It's easy to look at the end of a thread and say that people
were piling on, but usually that isn't the intention (how often do you
deliberately set out to make a thread nothing but attacks on the same
person?).

> How likely is it that somebody who is tech-savvy enough to sign up and post to
> the Python-List mailing list is not savvy enough to have heard of google or
> to have thought of search terms "download Python"?
>
> https://duckduckgo.com/html/?q=download%20python
>
> We're not talking about a young child, or some other barely computer literate
> person, but somebody studying for a Bachelor of Technology in India.
>
> Offering criticism is not attacking somebody. Not even tough criticism.
>
> And if you are thinking that it is, well, consider the beam in your own eye
> before the mote in KM's. You have just "attacked" (criticised) KM quite
> harshly, accusing him of making an "unwarranted" attack (I think it was very
> warranted), and using a metaphor which has particular cultural and colonial
> associations in India and neighbouring countries which we Westerners should
> be wary of making without good cause.[2]

I, on the other hand, think that it was indeed unwarranted.

1) The OP makes a lazy post
2) KM responds harshly
3) I respond, criticizing the harshness of KM's response
4) You respond, criticizing the harshness of my response.

While I absolutely agree with you that the OP should have done more
research before asking, I don't think that KM's attack was fully
warranted - at least, not in the way it was made. The text is still
above, in the quoted section; do you really think that that tone is
justified in response to a person's first post?

That said, though, I was wrong to use the metaphor I did. Mea culpa. I
did not think of the implications to people in India. KM, please
accept my apology for this.

> In our urge to be inclusive, we forget that it is just basic simple politeness
> that before asking strangers for a favour, we should make an honest attempt
> to solve the problem ourselves. If you don't, but still expect others to
> solve your problems for you, that's a violation of some pretty deeply
> embedded cultural norms about social cheating (taking advantage of others
> without giving back). Those norms are so deeply embedded they might even be
> biological. I can completely understand KM's apparant anger.
>
> The bottom line is, I disagree that KM's posts were out of line and more
> worthy of chastisement than Jyothiswaroop's post.

I would say they were comparably out of line, similarly worthy of
chastisement. Both of them were wrong. I'd like to think that my
response to KM was less wrong than either of the preceding posts, but
if you want to assert that I was also just as wrong, I'll accept that
(there were parts of it which I should definitely have thought more
about before sending). Bottom line is, I still think KM was wrong to
use the tone he did.

ChrisA
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Re: we want python software

[Grant Edwards]

On 2017-12-05, Igor Korot  wrote:
> Hi, Tony,
>
> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 11:10 AM, Tony van der Hoff  
> wrote:
>> On 05/12/17 16:55, Igor Korot wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Jyothiswaroop Reddy
>>>  wrote:
 Sir,
 I am b.tech student I would like to learn python. So please send 
 the python software.
>>> Sorry, we don't send anything. You will have to go get it yourself. -)
>>>
>> Well, at least try to be helpful:
>> https://www.python.org/downloads/
>
> This is LMGIFY.
> If they say they are tech students - they should know how to work with Google.

Yea, I've always been baffled by requests like that.

How is somebody able figure out how to post a question to the mailing
list, but is unable to type "Install Python" into Google?

-- 
Grant Edwards   grant.b.edwardsYow! Now KEN and BARBIE
  at   are PERMANENTLY ADDICTED to
  gmail.comMIND-ALTERING DRUGS ...

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Re: we want python software

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 06 December 2017 11:33:14 Steve D'Aprano wrote:

> On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 04:54 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 4:27 PM, km  wrote:
> >> Remember that you are wasting time of lakhs of  python subscribers
> >> by asking such dumb questions being tech students.  You people can
> >> Google and watch movies / songs online  and you can't find how to
> >> download and install python ? That's ridiculous!
> >
> > This attack is unwarranted. Please don't set fire to people simply
> > because they asked a question like this.
>
> I'm going to defend KM (srikrishnamohan) -- his comments were not "an
> attack", they are a well-deserved criticism of a *tech student* who
> apparently made zero effort to find out how to download Python before
> asking others to do it for him.
>
> I'm sorry for the length of this post. It is trivially easy to sink
> the boots in and tell KM off for his blunt criticism of the OP's
> request. But in the face of this hostile environment (out of the nine
> people who responded to this thread, no fewer than three have piled
> onto KM to tell him off), it isn't so easy to get through the message
> of why we shouldn't always coddle people asking questions like that
> asked by the OP, and why KM's response was tough but fair.
>
> It's not enough to merely shout back "No, you're wrong!", hence the
> length of this reply.
>
>
> Its been a while since I've seen anyone here link to "How to ask
> questions the smart way":
>
> http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>
>
> and quote this:
>
>
> When you ask your question, display the fact that you have done
> these things [try to find an answer] first; this will help
> establish that you're not being a lazy sponge and wasting people's
> time.
>
>
> (And more importantly: *you might learn something* by trying to solve
> your own problem.)
>
> And yes, I'm aware of the irony of me taking this position only a
> couple of posts after I asked the group to run some code for me
> without explaining why I couldn't run it myself.[1]
>
> The difference is, I have many years of answering other people's
> questions, I'm well known here, and I have a proven track record of
> not being a lazy sponge. But if somebody wants to take me to task for
> not explicitly stating why I wasn't running the code myself, I will
> preemptively take it in good grace and accept the criticism. Mea
> culpa.
>
> How likely is it that somebody who is tech-savvy enough to sign up and
> post to the Python-List mailing list is not savvy enough to have heard
> of google or to have thought of search terms "download Python"?
>
> https://duckduckgo.com/html/?q=download%20python
>
> We're not talking about a young child, or some other barely computer
> literate person, but somebody studying for a Bachelor of Technology in
> India.
>
> Offering criticism is not attacking somebody. Not even tough
> criticism.
>
> And if you are thinking that it is, well, consider the beam in your
> own eye before the mote in KM's. You have just "attacked" (criticised)
> KM quite harshly, accusing him of making an "unwarranted" attack (I
> think it was very warranted), and using a metaphor which has
> particular cultural and colonial associations in India and
> neighbouring countries which we Westerners should be wary of making
> without good cause.[2]
>
> When somebody mildly breaches social norms, even the norms of a tech
> forum, mild shaming is often an effective method of enforcement. I'm
> not saying that the OP should be doxxed, his family and employer
> harassed, ripped apart on social media, but KM telling him off for
> wasting people's time seems fair to me. We can assume that the OP
> isn't a two year old. He should know better, and we ought to expect
> more from him. Its not a crime if he doesn't, but we don't have to
> molly-coddle him either.
>
> Consider your bible: a soft answer turns away wrath. But the bible
> never says that the wrath wasn't justified in the first place. KM is
> clearly angry at the OP's behaviour, hence his strong words. We should
> balance our concern about driving away newbies like the OP with some
> concern about the justified anger at needy, entitled, demanding people
> who take, take, take and never give back. "Smart Questions" (above) is
> not just good advice, it is also a set of social norms, and the OP
> violated them.
>
> And again, consider your own beam: what you are complaining about KM
> doing to the OP, is exactly what you, Ethan and others are attempting
> to do to KM. You consider KM's actions to have violated *your* social
> norm of "be nice" and consequently you are trying to shame KM into
> changing his behaviour to meet those norms, by chastising him and
> telling him off for supposedly attacking the OP, for being
> condescending, for being hateful.
>
> Ironically, it appears that both KM and the OP are newbies. Aren't we
> supposed to be more welcoming to newbies?
>
> > You can be far 

Re: we want python software

[Steve D'Aprano]

On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 04:54 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 4:27 PM, km  wrote:
>> Remember that you are wasting time of lakhs of  python subscribers by
>> asking such dumb questions being tech students.  You people can Google and
>> watch movies / songs online  and you can't find how to download and install
>> python ? That's ridiculous!
>>
> 
> This attack is unwarranted. Please don't set fire to people simply
> because they asked a question like this.

I'm going to defend KM (srikrishnamohan) -- his comments were not "an attack",
they are a well-deserved criticism of a *tech student* who apparently made
zero effort to find out how to download Python before asking others to do it
for him.

I'm sorry for the length of this post. It is trivially easy to sink the boots
in and tell KM off for his blunt criticism of the OP's request. But in the
face of this hostile environment (out of the nine people who responded to
this thread, no fewer than three have piled onto KM to tell him off), it
isn't so easy to get through the message of why we shouldn't always coddle
people asking questions like that asked by the OP, and why KM's response was
tough but fair.

It's not enough to merely shout back "No, you're wrong!", hence the length of
this reply.


Its been a while since I've seen anyone here link to "How to ask questions the
smart way":

http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html


and quote this:


When you ask your question, display the fact that you have done
these things [try to find an answer] first; this will help establish
that you're not being a lazy sponge and wasting people's time.


(And more importantly: *you might learn something* by trying to solve your own
problem.)

And yes, I'm aware of the irony of me taking this position only a couple of
posts after I asked the group to run some code for me without explaining why
I couldn't run it myself.[1]

The difference is, I have many years of answering other people's questions,
I'm well known here, and I have a proven track record of not being a lazy
sponge. But if somebody wants to take me to task for not explicitly stating
why I wasn't running the code myself, I will preemptively take it in good
grace and accept the criticism. Mea culpa.

How likely is it that somebody who is tech-savvy enough to sign up and post to
the Python-List mailing list is not savvy enough to have heard of google or
to have thought of search terms "download Python"?

https://duckduckgo.com/html/?q=download%20python

We're not talking about a young child, or some other barely computer literate
person, but somebody studying for a Bachelor of Technology in India.

Offering criticism is not attacking somebody. Not even tough criticism.

And if you are thinking that it is, well, consider the beam in your own eye
before the mote in KM's. You have just "attacked" (criticised) KM quite
harshly, accusing him of making an "unwarranted" attack (I think it was very
warranted), and using a metaphor which has particular cultural and colonial
associations in India and neighbouring countries which we Westerners should
be wary of making without good cause.[2]

When somebody mildly breaches social norms, even the norms of a tech forum,
mild shaming is often an effective method of enforcement. I'm not saying that
the OP should be doxxed, his family and employer harassed, ripped apart on
social media, but KM telling him off for wasting people's time seems fair to
me. We can assume that the OP isn't a two year old. He should know better,
and we ought to expect more from him. Its not a crime if he doesn't, but we
don't have to molly-coddle him either.

Consider your bible: a soft answer turns away wrath. But the bible never says
that the wrath wasn't justified in the first place. KM is clearly angry at
the OP's behaviour, hence his strong words. We should balance our concern
about driving away newbies like the OP with some concern about the justified
anger at needy, entitled, demanding people who take, take, take and never
give back. "Smart Questions" (above) is not just good advice, it is also a
set of social norms, and the OP violated them.

And again, consider your own beam: what you are complaining about KM doing to
the OP, is exactly what you, Ethan and others are attempting to do to KM. You
consider KM's actions to have violated *your* social norm of "be nice" and
consequently you are trying to shame KM into changing his behaviour to meet
those norms, by chastising him and telling him off for supposedly attacking
the OP, for being condescending, for being hateful.

Ironically, it appears that both KM and the OP are newbies. Aren't we supposed
to be more welcoming to newbies?


> You can be far more courteous 
> than this, even if you refuse to help. Particularly, the "you people"
> sounds like a blanket statement, which is almost certainly not useful
> to the discussion.

I think that given both posters appear to be Indian, perhaps 

Re: we want python software

[Rick Johnson]

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 12:11:47 AM UTC-6, Chris Angelico wrote:

[...]

> To the OP: [...] The best thing to do here is to type
> "python" into your favourite search engine (Google,
> DuckDuckGo, Bing, AltaVista, etc), and then read the web
> page for a download link.

I don't think a general web search is really such a good
idea, as it is vital for the OP to download a _legitimate_
copy of the software, one that is not filled  with bloatware
and/or infected with exploits. And the only way to know you
have a legit copy of Python software is to download it from
the official Python.org website.

Random web searches are great when you know what you're
looking for, however, if the OP finds himself/herself on a
shady site like downloads.com, or worse, somewhere in the
filthy virus infected catacombs of Bill and Hillary
Clinton's private email server haphazardly jammed into a
bathroom closet with all manner of toiletries and even a
commercial quality washing machine filled with Clinton Cash,
you never know what you might find in there! 

Eh comrade? o_O
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: we want python software

[Rick Johnson]

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 2:14:40 AM UTC-6, Percival John Hackworth 
wrote:

[...]

> [...]
> The good people (e.g. the friends I asked for advice) are
> to busy to do such little projects to bother.

Good work is not cheap. And cheap work is not good.

> So the market is left with Junior people in India making
> crap. It's not a question of them taking jobs away from
> U.S. developers. It's a question of the good ones already
> have work. Can we train Joe to setup Wordpress and secure
> it or write a Java Web site when all he's done before is
> manufacturing or worked in a grocery store.

Not easily, no. There are certain fundamental personality
attributes and natural inclinations that lend themselves
nicely to writing code.

(1) Strongly self-reliance

This cannot be stressed enough. If you're the type of person
who requires a micro-manager to hover over your shoulder all
day telling you what to do, then writing software is _not_
for you.

(2) Naturally analytical

If the greatest thought that has ever entered your mind is
"Hmm, i wonder what the Kardasians are doing today?", then
writing software is _not_ for you. There are plenty of
department stores who could use another brain-dead sales
rep. OTOH, if you find yourself intrigued by the inner
workings of just about every system and process in our
universe, then you may be an excellent candidate for this
field -- among many other mentally challenging fields.

(3) Logically inclined

If logic did not come naturally to you, or you feel that
logic is nothing but the philosophical penchant of sadistic
pedantics, then writing software is _absolutely_ not for
you. You simply cannot write software unless you possess a
strong grasp of logic.

(4) Exceptional problem solving skills  

Problem solving requires first breaking a problem structure
down into its component parts using your analytical skills,
and then applying logical solutions to each of these
components in a manner that will satisfy the whole.
Pragmatics is often your best friend. But you must not loose
sight of the bigger picture. For if you dismiss the delicate
and synergistic interplay between these components, your
naive solution will collapse on itself. Problem solving
requires thinking deeply in the abstract using metaphors,
applying diverse methodologies, and identifying the weak
spots in your proposed solution. Typically there isn't a
perfect solution. For, if there were a perfect solution to
every software problem, we could automate the software
development process. Code is not something you just yank out
of your colon like it were a fictional story for
entertainment purposes, no, it's called Engineering for a
_reason_.

The remainder can be taught, and mostly a matter of
memorization.

Any idiot of average intelligence can learn the syntax,
structural formatting rules and library contents of one or
more programming languages, however, if they lack the
aforementioned personality traits and natural skill sets,
they can't do much of anything with such knowledge, and
essentially, all they have accomplished is to fill their
head with useless facts. Facts are only useful when they can
be applied to solve problems. Short of that, they are mental
refuse.

I once encountered a most annoyingly uninformed dolt who
quiped:

DOLT: "Programming is easy! Once you learn the langauge,
it's just a matter of fill-in-the-blanks."

ME: "Oh really?" o_O

ME: "Are you literate in the English?"

DOLT: "Of course i am!"

ME: "I see. And are you literate in English at an _advanced_
level?"

DOLT: "Of course i am!!!" >:-(

ME: "And does being literate in the English language
necessarily mean that you could author a best selling
novel?"

DOLT: "Uh? Uh? (*sigh*) Probably not. No."  :-'(

ME: "Hmm, and could you author _anything_ that is worthy
enough to be included on the shelves of a respectable book
store?"

DOLT: "Muh... Muh... Well, maybe!? :^|"

[Hope springs eternal!] ಠ_ಠ

ME: "And how many books have you authored thus far?"

DOLT: "Well nothing yet. >:-("

ME: "Okay then."

ME: "Next time, think before you open your mouth."

> Other groups aren't so nice to beginners - the perl group
> is brutal and tell a student to do their own homework.

There is clear difference between requesting advice on one
small detail that is unclear, and positing a verbatim
outline of a homework project and then expecting the group
to cough up a complete solution on a silver platter. In the
latter case, the student should be admonished.

However, another approach is to offer an absurd solution.
One which produces the correct result whilst being
structurally, practically, and/or semantically a total train
wreck.

The instructor will "know". ;-)

[Hope springs eternal!] ಠ_ಠ
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: we want python software

[Steve D'Aprano]

On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 02:49 pm, Rustom Mody wrote:

> You are assuming that the strangeness of the request is about 'tech'
> [engineering/tech existed centuries before computers]
> 
> Do remember one can be a tech-{student,professional} without
> - ever having encountered free-software
> - internet/USENET culture
> 
> … from which pov the request would not look so odd

So you're suggesting that rather than being unwilling to google for "Download
Python" because he doesn't understand free software culture, the OP is
unwilling to google for "Download Python" because he thinks it is proprietary
software and wants a bunch of strangers on the Internet to send him a pirate
copy?

I'm not entirely sure that's better...



-- 
Steve
“Cheer up,” they said, “things could be worse.” So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: we want python software

[Steve D'Aprano]

On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 03:45 pm, Abhiram R wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 10:08 AM, km  wrote:
> 
>> I dont know how these students are selected into b tech stream in India.
>> they are so dumb. All they know is a to open a program we need to double
>> click it and it runs.
>>
>> We were all once "dumb". We learnt it because someone Taught us.


Since you're so open to being corrected, let me remind you to read your posts
before sending. Somehow you managed to introduce an extra > quote marker at
the beginning of your own comment, (the line starting "We were all once...").
Check it out here:

https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2017-December/729112.html

and you will see that your comment is quoted, as if it were written by the
person you are replying to.

(Normally I wouldn't bother mentioning something so trivial, but since you
make the excellent point that we don't learn to correct mistakes unless we
have them pointed out, I thought I'd do so.)


> I'd rather not entertain such or refrain from condescending replies

I think you have misunderstood the word "condescending".

It is condescending to assume that the OP, Jyothiswaroop Reddy, is a fragile
and delicate little hothouse flower that needs protecting from reality where
people will tell you "Don't be so lazy and don't waste our time".

I prefer to expect more of people and let them meet my expectations, than to
downgrade my expectations and coddle them into a spiral of lower and lower
competence and ability.

(By the way Rustom, if you're reading, thank you for that link to the video a
few weeks ago about teaching 2 + 2 = 22. My blood pressure just about doubled
watching it.)




-- 
Steve
“Cheer up,” they said, “things could be worse.” So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: we want python software

[Percival John Hackworth]

On 05-Dec-2017, km wrote
(in article):

> I dont know how these students are selected into b tech stream in India.
> they are so dumb. All they know is a to open a program we need to double
> click it and it runs.- windoze legacy. most of the time they pay huge
> amount to a greedy college and get into tech stream.
> Now that Java boom (jobs) is over in India and python is booming in AI and
> machine learning these people want to learn python and get easy jobs
> (software coolies). pls dont even entertain such posts.
A friend who deals with outsource Indian developers told me something 
interesting. Apparently, the programmers are paid very poorly in India. 
Managers are paid much better. So the career path over there is to "pay your 
dues" writing code, then become a manager where you no longer have to write 
code. It means that all the product teams that are outsourced to India 
*always* get new, green people because as soon as they get any good, they 
become managers.

That explains a lot, doesn't it. It also means when your company lays off a 
lot of technical staff and outsources tech pubs, 1st line support, and 
development to India, the people left in the US are the "Tiger Team" to fix 
screw ups or major issues in a product release. Then they sell the company.

Another friend hired a programmer from India to develop a java-based web site 
to sell their product in the iOS App Store. He asked me to look at problems 
they were having with the site. I'm a sysadmin, not a java programmer, but I 
knew that you're not supposed to run a Tomcat web server as root. According 
to friends, you're not supposed to expose Tomcat to the internet at all. 
That's not what this developer did. It looked like it was a school project 
that he setup stuff but didn't know how it's done in production with security 
enabled. Nor could he deal with AWS.

It's a nightmare out there for people looking to get development done "on the 
cheap". The good people (e.g. the friends I asked for advice) are to busy to 
do such little projects to bother. So the market is left with Junior people 
in India making crap. It's not a question of them taking jobs away from U.S. 
developers. It's a question of the good ones already have work. Can we train 
Joe to setup Wordpress and secure it or write a Java Web site when all he's 
done before is manufacturing or worked in a grocery store.

Other groups aren't so nice to beginners - the perl group is brutal and tell 
a student to do their own homework. I'm just dipping my toe into python here 
and you guys more helpful. Mostly because there's so much possibility in 
python (compared to other scripting languages).

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: we want python software

[Ethan Furman]

On 12/05/2017 09:27 PM, km wrote:

[snip]

Many things in this world are frustrating, but being hateful will not solve 
anything.  Please control yourself.

--
~Ethan~
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: we want python software

[Chris Angelico]

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 4:27 PM, km  wrote:
> Remember that you are wasting time of lakhs of  python subscribers by
> asking such dumb questions being tech students.  You people can Google and
> watch movies / songs online  and you can't find how to download and install
> python ? That's ridiculous!
>

This attack is unwarranted. Please don't set fire to people simply
because they asked a question like this. You can be far more courteous
than this, even if you refuse to help. Particularly, the "you people"
sounds like a blanket statement, which is almost certainly not useful
to the discussion.

To the OP: Several people have suggested ways to get the software you
need, even if they've done it somewhat rudely. The best thing to do
here is to type "python" into your favourite search engine (Google,
DuckDuckGo, Bing, AltaVista, etc), and then read the web page for a
download link. You should be able to find it. If you've tried and
failed, or if something confuses you, come back to the list and ask a
specific question, and we'll be happy to answer.

ChrisA
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: we want python software

[km]

Remember that you are wasting time of lakhs of  python subscribers by
asking such dumb questions being tech students.  You people can Google and
watch movies / songs online  and you can't find how to download and install
python ? That's ridiculous!

On Dec 6, 2017 10:15 AM, "Abhiram R"  wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 10:08 AM, km  wrote:
>
>> I dont know how these students are selected into b tech stream in India.
>> they are so dumb. All they know is a to open a program we need to double
>> click it and it runs.
>>
>> ​We were all once "dumb". We learnt it because someone Taught us. I'd
> rather not entertain such or refrain from condescending replies that would
> further discourage people from trying to get into the field. With all the
> emphasis on the Python "community", it's important not to be so dismissive.
>
>
> Thanks
> Abhiram ​
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 9:19 AM, Rustom Mody 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 3:10:24 AM UTC+5:30, Igor Korot wrote:
>> > > Hi, Tony,
>> > >
>> > > On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 11:10 AM, Tony van der Hoff  wrote:
>> > > > On 05/12/17 16:55, Igor Korot wrote:
>> > > >> Hi,
>> > > >>
>> > > >> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Jyothiswaroop Reddy wrote:
>> > > >>> Sir,
>> > > >>> I am b.tech student I would like to learn python. So
>> please
>> > send the python software.
>> > > >> Sorry, we don't send anything. You will have to go get it
>> yourself. -)
>> > > >>
>> > > > Well, at least try to be helpful:
>> > > > https://www.python.org/downloads/
>> > >
>> > > This is LMGIFY.
>> > > If they say they are tech students - they should know how to work with
>> > Google.
>> > >
>> > > And I even tried to be polite. I should have probably write something
>> > like:
>> > >
>> > > 1. Open the Web browser.
>> > > 2. In the "Address Bar" type "www.pyton.org".
>> > > 3. Find the link which reads "Downloads". Click on it.
>> > > 4. Carefully read what version you need to install for your OS.
>> > > 5. Apply the acquired knowledge and download the appropriate version.
>> > > 6. Click on the installer (if on Windows).
>> > > 7. Follow all the prompts.
>> > > 8. Enjoy.
>> > >
>> > > but this is too much for the tech student.
>> >
>> > You are assuming that the strangeness of the request is about 'tech'
>> > [engineering/tech existed centuries before computers]
>> >
>> > Do remember one can be a tech-{student,professional} without
>> > - ever having encountered free-software
>> > - internet/USENET culture
>> >
>> > … from which pov the request would not look so odd
>> >
>> > --
>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>> >
>> --
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>>
>
>
>
> --
> -Abhiram R
> ᐧ
>
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: we want python software

[Abhiram R]

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 10:08 AM, km  wrote:

> I dont know how these students are selected into b tech stream in India.
> they are so dumb. All they know is a to open a program we need to double
> click it and it runs.
>
> ​We were all once "dumb". We learnt it because someone Taught us. I'd
rather not entertain such or refrain from condescending replies that would
further discourage people from trying to get into the field. With all the
emphasis on the Python "community", it's important not to be so dismissive.


Thanks
Abhiram ​




>
>
> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 9:19 AM, Rustom Mody  wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 3:10:24 AM UTC+5:30, Igor Korot wrote:
> > > Hi, Tony,
> > >
> > > On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 11:10 AM, Tony van der Hoff  wrote:
> > > > On 05/12/17 16:55, Igor Korot wrote:
> > > >> Hi,
> > > >>
> > > >> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Jyothiswaroop Reddy wrote:
> > > >>> Sir,
> > > >>> I am b.tech student I would like to learn python. So please
> > send the python software.
> > > >> Sorry, we don't send anything. You will have to go get it yourself.
> -)
> > > >>
> > > > Well, at least try to be helpful:
> > > > https://www.python.org/downloads/
> > >
> > > This is LMGIFY.
> > > If they say they are tech students - they should know how to work with
> > Google.
> > >
> > > And I even tried to be polite. I should have probably write something
> > like:
> > >
> > > 1. Open the Web browser.
> > > 2. In the "Address Bar" type "www.pyton.org".
> > > 3. Find the link which reads "Downloads". Click on it.
> > > 4. Carefully read what version you need to install for your OS.
> > > 5. Apply the acquired knowledge and download the appropriate version.
> > > 6. Click on the installer (if on Windows).
> > > 7. Follow all the prompts.
> > > 8. Enjoy.
> > >
> > > but this is too much for the tech student.
> >
> > You are assuming that the strangeness of the request is about 'tech'
> > [engineering/tech existed centuries before computers]
> >
> > Do remember one can be a tech-{student,professional} without
> > - ever having encountered free-software
> > - internet/USENET culture
> >
> > … from which pov the request would not look so odd
> >
> > --
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> >
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>



-- 
-Abhiram R
ᐧ
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: we want python software

[km]

I dont know how these students are selected into b tech stream in India.
they are so dumb. All they know is a to open a program we need to double
click it and it runs.- windoze legacy. most of the time they pay huge
amount to a greedy college and get into tech stream.
Now that Java boom (jobs) is over in India and python is booming in AI and
machine learning these people want to learn python and get easy jobs
(software coolies). pls dont even entertain such posts.



On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 9:19 AM, Rustom Mody  wrote:

> On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 3:10:24 AM UTC+5:30, Igor Korot wrote:
> > Hi, Tony,
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 11:10 AM, Tony van der Hoff  wrote:
> > > On 05/12/17 16:55, Igor Korot wrote:
> > >> Hi,
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Jyothiswaroop Reddy wrote:
> > >>> Sir,
> > >>> I am b.tech student I would like to learn python. So please
> send the python software.
> > >> Sorry, we don't send anything. You will have to go get it yourself. -)
> > >>
> > > Well, at least try to be helpful:
> > > https://www.python.org/downloads/
> >
> > This is LMGIFY.
> > If they say they are tech students - they should know how to work with
> Google.
> >
> > And I even tried to be polite. I should have probably write something
> like:
> >
> > 1. Open the Web browser.
> > 2. In the "Address Bar" type "www.pyton.org".
> > 3. Find the link which reads "Downloads". Click on it.
> > 4. Carefully read what version you need to install for your OS.
> > 5. Apply the acquired knowledge and download the appropriate version.
> > 6. Click on the installer (if on Windows).
> > 7. Follow all the prompts.
> > 8. Enjoy.
> >
> > but this is too much for the tech student.
>
> You are assuming that the strangeness of the request is about 'tech'
> [engineering/tech existed centuries before computers]
>
> Do remember one can be a tech-{student,professional} without
> - ever having encountered free-software
> - internet/USENET culture
>
> … from which pov the request would not look so odd
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
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Re: we want python software

[Rustom Mody]

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 3:10:24 AM UTC+5:30, Igor Korot wrote:
> Hi, Tony,
> 
> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 11:10 AM, Tony van der Hoff  wrote:
> > On 05/12/17 16:55, Igor Korot wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Jyothiswaroop Reddy wrote:
> >>> Sir,
> >>> I am b.tech student I would like to learn python. So please send 
> >>> the python software.
> >> Sorry, we don't send anything. You will have to go get it yourself. -)
> >>
> > Well, at least try to be helpful:
> > https://www.python.org/downloads/
> 
> This is LMGIFY.
> If they say they are tech students - they should know how to work with Google.
> 
> And I even tried to be polite. I should have probably write something like:
> 
> 1. Open the Web browser.
> 2. In the "Address Bar" type "www.pyton.org".
> 3. Find the link which reads "Downloads". Click on it.
> 4. Carefully read what version you need to install for your OS.
> 5. Apply the acquired knowledge and download the appropriate version.
> 6. Click on the installer (if on Windows).
> 7. Follow all the prompts.
> 8. Enjoy.
> 
> but this is too much for the tech student.

You are assuming that the strangeness of the request is about 'tech'
[engineering/tech existed centuries before computers]

Do remember one can be a tech-{student,professional} without
- ever having encountered free-software
- internet/USENET culture

… from which pov the request would not look so odd

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: we want python software

[Igor Korot]

Hi, Tony,

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 11:10 AM, Tony van der Hoff  wrote:
> On 05/12/17 16:55, Igor Korot wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Jyothiswaroop Reddy
>>  wrote:
>>> Sir,
>>> I am b.tech student I would like to learn python. So please send 
>>> the python software.
>> Sorry, we don't send anything. You will have to go get it yourself. -)
>>
> Well, at least try to be helpful:
> https://www.python.org/downloads/

This is LMGIFY.
If they say they are tech students - they should know how to work with Google.

And I even tried to be polite. I should have probably write something like:

1. Open the Web browser.
2. In the "Address Bar" type "www.pyton.org".
3. Find the link which reads "Downloads". Click on it.
4. Carefully read what version you need to install for your OS.
5. Apply the acquired knowledge and download the appropriate version.
6. Click on the installer (if on Windows).
7. Follow all the prompts.
8. Enjoy.

but this is too much for the tech student.

Thank you.

> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: we want python software

[Tony van der Hoff]

On 05/12/17 16:55, Igor Korot wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Jyothiswaroop Reddy
>  wrote:
>> Sir,
>> I am b.tech student I would like to learn python. So please send the 
>> python software.
> Sorry, we don't send anything. You will have to go get it yourself. -)
>
Well, at least try to be helpful:
https://www.python.org/downloads/
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: we want python software

[Joel Goldstick]

Go visit python.org to see how to download python for the operating system
you are using.  Its free of course

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 11:55 AM, Igor Korot  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Jyothiswaroop Reddy
>  wrote:
> > Sir,
> > I am b.tech student I would like to learn python. So please send
> the python software.
>
> Sorry, we don't send anything. You will have to go get it yourself. -)
>
> Thanking you back.
>
> > Thanking you sir.
> >
> > Sent from Mail for Windows 10
> >
> > --
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>



-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com/blog
http://cc-baseballstats.info/stats/birthdays
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Re: we want python software

[Igor Korot]

Hi,

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Jyothiswaroop Reddy
 wrote:
> Sir,
> I am b.tech student I would like to learn python. So please send the 
> python software.

Sorry, we don't send anything. You will have to go get it yourself. -)

Thanking you back.

> Thanking you sir.
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list