Re: TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer)
[RESEND of answer to all initial groups] On 16 Öåâ, 15:45, Steve Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: [...] Of course I'll not stay with trac, I'll leave the sinking ship, I've prepare long time ago to do so, step by step. An will migrate step by step away from trac and python - toward an own implementation based on... perl and it's libraries. I'm sure you will find the Perl community much more welcoming and receptive to your ideas about how open source projects should be run. The perl projects can decide themselfs if they like to adopt the most essential things: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Project I do not analyze languages and communities anymore, thus there is no need for them to 'worry', e.g. that I attemp to transform them to an high evolutive language system. Ruby and Python were excellent for this (Ruby = weak puppets, Python = egoism driven). I'll just use perl until I've implemented my own language, around 2010 to 2011, which will be most possibly close to perl (or a perl extension, if technically possibly and no legal barriers with libraries). Perl is available in nearly every webserver, and has very nice a logical OO functionality (although it's not very good marketed, this OO part). And perl keeps you highly independent, you can work with simple systems, close to the OS. Really, I don't understand the need for python. And after fighting with some indenting within html templates, I dislike the whitespace- syntax-thing of python again. Fortunately, as you have realized, you have choices and are under no compulsion to use any particular tool. As said above: python (essentially it's community in a wider scope) is an ideal domain to analyze how human egoism blocks evolution of technical systems. Thus, python is an important educational tool. Do it in perl, if you need something more 'pretty', do it in ruby, if you need something more 'serious' do it in java, if you have enough brain and time, do it in C++ from bottom up. And, apparently, do it in Python if you want to avoind running into Ilias Lazaridis. No, I'll be bound to python for some time, a year or so. And good news: as I cannot post to the trac-user group, I'll post the topics to comp.lang.python. (you can thank the project lead of trac, his lack of courage is the reason that the developers get out of control) I have to say your approach to IT systems seems somewhat pedestrian, The IT industry has failed to provide simple standards, systems. AI has failed to produce intelligent systems. So, maybe the IT industry is somewhat pedestrian, as its failure to control egoism has led to terrible software systems. Restarting from the beginning can give the impression of a learning child. but I wish you well in whatever it is you are trying to achieve. http://core.lazaridis.com/wiki/ActivityHistory I hope you have a good set of asbestos (i.e. flame-proof) trousers. As said, the analysis phase is over. But even if not: I've 'survived' within comp.lang.lisp for some months http://groups.google.gr/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/879809... I think no language community can be worser. - Btw: If you would adopt the open-source-processes to digital electronic design, we would work today still with 8086. http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/ProjectLead . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer)
[RESEND answer to all initial groups] On 16 Öåâ, 19:15, Jeff Schwab [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: Essence: snipSpam spam spam spam.../snip I just looked at your resume. http://lazaridis.com/resumes/lazaridis.html (need to update it, lot's of irrelevant stuff, should focus on my failures) What is Abstract Project Management? I've mentioned abstract _product_ management Don't know exactly, I've never tried to articulate the meaning which I've internally. You could extract the meaning from Abstract Base Class or Abstractness in general. Something like universal product management. Or managing a product without having many specific information about it. Something like this _possibly_: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/KomodoAudit -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer)
Dear Ilias, Post in a single reply. Coko -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Dear Ilias, Post in a single reply. He has to, in hopes to gain the traction he desires - as otherwise he's pretty much ignored these days. Which is a good thing of course... Diez -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer)
On Feb 18, 6:56 pm, Diez B. Roggisch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Dear Ilias, Post in a single reply. He has to, in hopes to gain the traction he desires Was the pun intended ? ;-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer)
Essence: * Trac is deficient, cause of proud to be an egoism driven amateur developers * Python and it's communities is excellent for learning. Not programming, but to learn from deficiency, community organization, transparency, efficiency etc.! * Do it in perl, if you need something more 'pretty', do it in ruby, if you need something more 'serious' do it in java, if you have enough brain and time, do it in C++ from bottom up. - I don't think that's a secret anymore. Anyone should know that the trac team has huge problems to bring trac forward. People who have looked at the code-base and project understand some reason: difficult to maintain 'spaghetti-code' in many places, disorganized project, missing separations of concerns etc.! I've provided an overview some time ago http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/TracAudit At this time the developers are searching like crazy to find a mem- leak... since months. http://trac.edgewall.org/ticket/6614 But the main problem with the trac team is the processing within project resources. Believe it or not, developers can act within this project as they like, 'trimming' ticket comments in a way that a ticket gets a totally other meaning. The main specialist for this is Mr. Noah Kantrowitz. He calls it sanitizing. The team hides behind him, cowardly, without any public vote. How did everything start? I post a simple message to trac-users (note: the user resource, NOT the developer resource), in order to extend my custom version of trac 0.11 a little. The message did not appear, as my email is under moderation. I do not switch to another email, as I write always with the same identity. So i file a ticket within the ticket system (here you can see the After a quick vote, it has been decided to sanitize this ticket. ... I start to like this sanitize term, sounds really interesting) http://trac.edgewall.org/ticket/6802 Mr. Noah Kantrowitz deleted the discussion, but I've saved it here, thus you can see that the developers of trac have no idea about their own processes: http://case.lazaridis.com/ticket/48 After the developers placed the usual irrelevant comments (remember: I just asked them to stop blocking my messages to trac users), they brute force closed the ticket. I've opened a new one, directly adressed to the project lead, in order to complain about the developers which violate the project processes, and to ask for a formal vote: http://trac.edgewall.org/ticket/6844 Right! Mr. Noah Kantrowitz plays again wild west. I relly don't know who of those two is more funny: the one who plays the dictator, or the other joker who suggests to revers the process (I should find developers to veto against the censorship and send the to the team). Remember: we are talking about the trac-user group. I really cannot believe that a whole team can be in such way confused, nuts, blind, egoism-driven etc.! Possibly they have lost the password to the trac-user group, and are not able to manage it - who knows. I would not wonder, seeing thos terrible processes and the rejection to improve them. (btw: If you like to act against censorship, please post this message to trac-users, thus the get informed about the teams processing) And we are talking about censorship of a trac 0.11dev custom-version- developer. A custom version with localization support, plugin-bundles (product-plugin) which run out of the svn, an fully functional but simple side-navigation, and... everything deactivatable with a very simple way, thus the original trac is there again. http://dev.lazaridis.com/base Open Source works like this: many many small human ego's need to be fitted. There's no place for developers which could redesign the whole thing within a few months. the trac-developers need to 'fight' with tons of spaghetti. The developers plan like crazy, instead to merge with a application framework like e.g. turbogears. Did you know that trac has no support for... datetime fields? Yes, its true. You may say: do it yourself. Of course I could do it, even without touching the main sources (using dyna-patches or monkeypatches). But that's not how open-source works. You implement thing for yourself and contribute things back to the core-project - but with trac there's one problem: no one get's the core anymore (apparently the initial developer has left) Of course I'll not stay with trac, I'll leave the sinking ship, I've prepare long time ago to do so, step by step. An will migrate step by step away from trac and python - toward an own implementation based on... perl and it's libraries. Really, I don't understand the need for python. And after fighting with some indenting within html templates, I dislike the whitespace- syntax-thing of python again. Do it in perl, if you need something more 'pretty', do it in ruby, if you need something more 'serious' do it in java, if you have enough brain and time, do it in C++ from bottom up. Python and it's communities is excellent for learning. Not
Re: TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer)
Ilias Lazaridis wrote: [...] Of course I'll not stay with trac, I'll leave the sinking ship, I've prepare long time ago to do so, step by step. An will migrate step by step away from trac and python - toward an own implementation based on... perl and it's libraries. I'm sure you will find the Perl community much more welcoming and receptive to your ideas about how open source projects should be run. Really, I don't understand the need for python. And after fighting with some indenting within html templates, I dislike the whitespace- syntax-thing of python again. Fortunately, as you have realized, you have choices and are under no compulsion to use any particular tool. Do it in perl, if you need something more 'pretty', do it in ruby, if you need something more 'serious' do it in java, if you have enough brain and time, do it in C++ from bottom up. And, apparently, do it in Python if you want to avoind running into Ilias Lazaridis. I have to say your approach to IT systems seems somewhat pedestrian, but I wish you well in whatever it is you are trying to achieve. I hope you have a good set of asbestos (i.e. flame-proof) trousers. regards Steve -- Steve Holden+1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer)
On 16.02.2008 13:16, Ilias Lazaridis wrote: snip/ Oh, it's him again. Please do not respond. http://dev.eclipse.org/newslists/news.eclipse.foundation/msg00167.html http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Ilias Cheers robert -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
[OT] Re: TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer)
Ilias Lazaridis wrote: Essence: snipSpam spam spam spam.../snip I just looked at your resume. What is Abstract Project Management? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer)
Robert Klemme wrote: On 16.02.2008 13:16, Ilias Lazaridis wrote: snip/ Oh, it's him again. Please do not respond. http://dev.eclipse.org/newslists/news.eclipse.foundation/msg00167.html http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Ilias Thank you. I didn't recognize his name at first. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer)
On Feb 16, 12:15 pm, Jeff Schwab [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: Essence: snipSpam spam spam spam.../snip I just looked at your resume. What is Abstract Project Management? A branch of Analysis Paralysis Vaporware. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer)
[Followup-To: header set to comp.lang.perl.misc.] Jeff Schwab [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert Klemme wrote: On 16.02.2008 13:16, Ilias Lazaridis wrote: snip/ Oh, it's him again. Please do not respond. http://dev.eclipse.org/newslists/news.eclipse.foundation/msg00167.html http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Ilias Thank you. I didn't recognize his name at first. I had the post already pegged as bait simply by counting the number of commas in the Newsgroups header. :-) -- Tad McClellan email: perl -le print scalar reverse qq/moc.noitatibaher\100cmdat/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer)
On 16 Φεβ, 15:45, Robert Klemme [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 16.02.2008 13:16, Ilias Lazaridis wrote: snip/ Oh, it's him again. Please do not respond. http://dev.eclipse.org/newslists/news.eclipse.foundation/msg00167.html Thanks, nice message, I've added it to the section: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/CoreLiveEval#WhatPeopleThink http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Ilias It's really funny how easily people fall into the encyclopediadramatica-trap... really funny. While the articles themselves are mostly satirical jabs at Internet users (both individually and in groups) and phenomena, bear in mind that the Encyclopedia Dramatica itself is a parody of a much less funny online encyclopedia. As such, ED articles tend to make fun of the supposed objectivity and accuracy, elitism, and stupid edit wars of such sites. In other words, expect blatant, biased lies, and expect boring truths to get deleted quickly. http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Encyclopedia_Dramatica:About Cheers robert -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer)
On 16 Φεβ, 19:15, Jeff Schwab [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: Essence: snipSpam spam spam spam.../snip I just looked at your resume. http://lazaridis.com/resumes/lazaridis.html (need to update it, lot's of irrelevant stuff, should focus on my failures) What is Abstract Project Management? I've mentioned abstract _product_ management Don't know exactly, I've never tried to articulate the meaning which I've internally. You could extract the meaning from Abstract Base Class or Abstractness in general. Something like universal product management. Or managing a product without having many specific information about it. Something like this _possibly_: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/KomodoAudit -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer)
On 16 Φεβ, 15:45, Steve Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: [...] Of course I'll not stay with trac, I'll leave the sinking ship, I've prepare long time ago to do so, step by step. An will migrate step by step away from trac and python - toward an own implementation based on... perl and it's libraries. I'm sure you will find the Perl community much more welcoming and receptive to your ideas about how open source projects should be run. The perl projects can decide themselfs if they like to adopt the most essential things: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Project I do not analyze languages and communities anymore, thus there is no need for them to 'worry', e.g. that I attemp to transform them to an high evolutive language system. Ruby and Python were excellent for this (Ruby = weak puppets, Python = egoism driven). I'll just use perl until I've implemented my own language, around 2010 to 2011, which will be most possibly close to perl (or a perl extension, if technically possibly and no legal barriers with libraries). Perl is available in nearly every webserver, and has very nice a logical OO functionality (although it's not very good marketed, this OO part). And perl keeps you highly independent, you can work with simple systems, close to the OS. Really, I don't understand the need for python. And after fighting with some indenting within html templates, I dislike the whitespace- syntax-thing of python again. Fortunately, as you have realized, you have choices and are under no compulsion to use any particular tool. As said above: python (essentially it's community in a wider scope) is an ideal domain to analyze how human egoism blocks evolution of technical systems. Thus, python is an important educational tool. Do it in perl, if you need something more 'pretty', do it in ruby, if you need something more 'serious' do it in java, if you have enough brain and time, do it in C++ from bottom up. And, apparently, do it in Python if you want to avoind running into Ilias Lazaridis. No, I'll be bound to python for some time, a year or so. And good news: as I cannot post to the trac-user group, I'll post the topics to comp.lang.python. (you can thank the project lead of trac, his lack of courage is the reason that the developers get out of control) I have to say your approach to IT systems seems somewhat pedestrian, The IT industry has failed to provide simple standards, systems. AI has failed to produce intelligent systems. So, maybe the IT industry is somewhat pedestrian, as its failure to control egoism has led to terrible software systems. Restarting from the beginning can give the impression of a learning child. but I wish you well in whatever it is you are trying to achieve. http://core.lazaridis.com/wiki/ActivityHistory I hope you have a good set of asbestos (i.e. flame-proof) trousers. As said, the analysis phase is over. But even if not: I've 'survived' within comp.lang.lisp for some months http://groups.google.gr/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/87980954f111e965/af5f19a1c8101a93?lnk=stq=dynamite+and+teflon+ilias#af5f19a1c8101a93 I think no language community can be worser. - Btw: If you would adopt the open-source-processes to digital electronic design, we would work today still with 8086. http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/ProjectLead . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
