Re: What are the other options against Zope?
On Monday 04 July 2005 10:21 am, phil wrote: A data base with properties and methods. Cool. I am so sure I already said this. Well, I guess I typed too much else. Cheers, Terry -- Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com ) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What are the other options against Zope?
phil wrote: Peter Hansen wrote: Now understand, I know what very well what Python, Apache, PhP, MySQL, IE and javascript do. I just don't know what Zope does. And if the answer is going contain phrases like brings together or sits on top of, don't bother. :-) It's an object oriented database, with a structure that is similar to files and directories in an ordinary OS. But it is a lot smarter, because the files and directories are actually objects with different attributes and parameters. The methods on these objects can then be called eg. from a web browser with different parameters. But you can also use other protocols than http like dav, ftp etc. This is a very effective way to build web applications, and does not need sql-object remapping as normal web apps does. -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What are the other options against Zope?
It's an object oriented database, with a structure that is similar to files and directories in an ordinary OS. But it is a lot smarter, because the files and directories are actually objects with different attributes and parameters. The methods on these objects can then be called eg. from a web browser with different parameters. But you can also use other protocols than http like dav, ftp etc. Well, that's interesting. I've never seen an explantion like this. Actually I think I have, and was too dumb to realize what I was reading. A data base with properties and methods. Cool. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What are the other options against Zope?
Christopher Subich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That, and the file format definitely isn't robust to bit-rot that happened too often on FAT16/32 filesystems. From where I sit, the critical difference between the registry and a set of .ini files (or Unix rc files) is that the registry requires special tools to tweak if it gets so busted you can't boot the system. The .ini (rc) files require nothing more complicated than an editor. Editors you sort of have to know - so fixing the .ini (rc) files doesn't require learning anything beyond the configuration system. To add insult to injury, the tools for hacking the Windows registry all require you to bring up a GUI, which means your rescue disk has to include a GUI. Note that Unix isn't immune to things like the registry. AIX(*) puts all the configuration information in an object database, that require special tools to manipulate. At least AIX provides CLI and curses-based tools to do the work. mike *) I know, some people don't consider AIX to be Unix. But it at least reminds you of Unix... -- Mike Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What are the other options against Zope?
Peter Hansen wrote: Florian Lindner wrote: Peter Hansen wrote: [Zope] doesn't include database interfaces other than to its own ZODB. That's not correct. Zope2 includes DB interfaces to MySQL, PostGre, ODBC and many others. It actually *includes* them? I thought those were all add-in modules, not ones that Zope actually installs. (I admit it's been a couple of years since I was current with the state of Zope... and my memory sucks. :-( ) Ok, you're right. But I don't really think it makes a difference to install them afterwards. Florian -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What are the other options against Zope?
Florian Lindner wrote: Peter Hansen wrote: [Zope] doesn't include database interfaces other than to its own ZODB. Ok, you're right. But I don't really think it makes a difference to install them afterwards. Probably not, but until the OP sheds more light on what this companies proprietary database actually is, and what googling means, none of us can do more than guess as to what would make a difference or not... -Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What are the other options against Zope?
On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 19:38:28 -0500, phil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyway, thanks Terry, I still don't know what Zope is but I need to accept that it's just a toolkit and I'm not gonna know until I dig in and as long as my web needs are simple, I probably won't. Actually, I found playing with CherryPy (http://www.cherrypy.org) an easier way to get Zope than digging into Zope directly. It also took me a good while to understand what an application server was, for that matter. AFAIK, Zope can be summed up as... - a server application that uses an object-oriented database (ZODB) to store items (static or dynamic HTML pages, images, scripts, etc.) as an alternative to storing data in either a SQL database and/or a filesystem (although Zope can connect to a SQL database, if need be) - the use of an OO-database makes it possible to map URLs to scripts (like it's done when mapping URLs to script pages in the filesystem), with some added benefits - a major benefit of the ZODB is acquisition (http://www.zope.org/Members/Amos/WhatIsAcquisition), ie. if an object is not found in the directory pointed to in the URL, ZODB will search for it by going up the tree all the way to the root, and either return the object if any is found along the way, or a 404. This makes it possible, for instance, to locate objects common to different sections of your site at the root of the site - scripts are mostly written in Python, since Zope is written partly in Python, and partly in C, although Zope also supports scripts in Perl. If you like, you can also write scripts à la PHP, ie. include code in HTML pages, using two templating languages: DTML is the older one, and ZPT is the more recent one. HTH Fred. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What are the other options against Zope?
Actually i want to create a google like web interface to any rdbms and search as we all do it in google.That would be great isn't it. Thank u for your queries. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What are the other options against Zope?
You understood my request correctly. I thank u for pointing me to cherrypy. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
What are the other options against Zope?
Hi all, I wanna thank Martin for helping out with my ignorance concerning execution of stored procedure with python. Now i have decided to write a web app that googles into my companies proprietary database. I need to know whether zope is good for that job. But even the introduction to zope in the zope book was intimidating. Are there any simple options? If so plz tell me how i can obtain it and study it. I should say that i am new to web programming. Thank you -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What are the other options against Zope?
godwin wrote: I wanna thank Martin for helping out with my ignorance concerning execution of stored procedure with python. Now i have decided to write a web app that googles into my companies proprietary database. Just checking... do you really mean googles, or is that in your mind a synonym for search? I need to know whether zope is good for that job. For which part of it? The web part, or the searching part? It's not likely sufficient for the searching part, since it doesn't include database interfaces other than to its own ZODB. What proprietary database is involved? -Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What are the other options against Zope?
Peter Hansen wrote: godwin wrote: I wanna thank Martin for helping out with my ignorance concerning execution of stored procedure with python. Now i have decided to write a web app that googles into my companies proprietary database. Just checking... do you really mean googles, or is that in your mind a synonym for search? I need to know whether zope is good for that job. For which part of it? The web part, or the searching part? It's not likely sufficient for the searching part, since it doesn't include database interfaces other than to its own ZODB. What proprietary database is involved? That's not correct. Zope2 includes DB interfaces to MySQL, PostGre, ODBC and many others. For Zope3 IIRC there are not yet so many interfaces. Florian -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What are the other options against Zope?
Peter Hansen wrote: godwin wrote: I wanna thank Martin for helping out with my ignorance concerning execution of stored procedure with python. Now i have decided to write a web app that googles into my companies proprietary database. Just checking... do you really mean googles, or is that in your mind a synonym for search? I need to know whether zope is good for that job. For which part of it? The web part, or the searching part? It's not likely sufficient for the searching part, since it doesn't include database interfaces other than to its own ZODB. What proprietary database is involved? -Peter I think the guy might like to know what Zope is. I went to an IBM all day once, can't even remember the name of their web services. At smoke breaks would compare notes with other attendees. I'm not sure we ever understood, but we all agreed the problem was undefined terms which I call organic buzz words. Zope is like that to me. I ask what is it and the answer sounds like Oh, it's oierbv for the zxcvioupo of 7cvn^djh'. Now understand, I know what very well what Python, Apache, PhP, MySQL, IE and javascript do. I just don't know what Zope does. And if the answer is going contain phrases like brings together or sits on top of, don't bother. :-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What are the other options against Zope?
Florian Lindner wrote: Peter Hansen wrote: [Zope] doesn't include database interfaces other than to its own ZODB. That's not correct. Zope2 includes DB interfaces to MySQL, PostGre, ODBC and many others. It actually *includes* them? I thought those were all add-in modules, not ones that Zope actually installs. (I admit it's been a couple of years since I was current with the state of Zope... and my memory sucks. :-( ) -Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What are the other options against Zope?
On Saturday 02 July 2005 10:55 am, phil wrote: Zope is like that to me. I ask what is it and the answer sounds like Oh, it's oierbv for the zxcvioupo of 7cvn^djh'. Now understand, I know what very well what Python, Apache, PhP, MySQL, IE and javascript do. I just don't know what Zope does. You know, that's a good question. Let's see if I can make a good answer: Zope is the Z Object Publishing Environment. It publishes a *tree* of *objects* stored in the ZODB which is an object oriented database. Think of it as a monstrous pickle implementation. Zope folders are a lot like user-defined classes in your application. They contain things, which is why they're called folders. But basically, from a programming perspective, what they contain are their attributes in the class/object jargon (in reality it can be more complicated, some containers use Python container types like dictionary or list as their internal structure). Of course, publishes means publishes to the web. Z: So Zope includes an *object store*, a *publisher*, and a *web server*. When the web server receives a request, it asks the publisher to get it, which digs it out of the object store. Then it goes back the other way, back to the requester via the web. Usually, you run the Zope webserver behind another proxy like Apache, but it is possible to serve a site directly from Zope. I never do that for production, because, Apache, being much more completely tested is a safer bet for not crashing or misbehaving under heavy loads. However, the built-in Zope webserver (I believe it was once called Medusa) is quite convenient for development and testing. OBJECT: Because Zope publishes Python *objects* instead of *files*, they can have much richer structure (e.g. metadata) than a site based on files stored in a filesystem. However, a set of files stored in a filesystem is very much like an object database, so 1) The ZODB is sometimes called the Zope Object FileSystem, which I find a useful idea --- especially since ZOFS has some extra constraints beyond what ZODB requires. 2) You actually can store contents of the ZODB *as* a filesystem with associated metadata in auxiliary files. I believe this is how the filesystem storage option for ZODB works (by default, ZODB lumps all its data into one big container file Data.fs -- this is the filestorage option). PUBLISHING: Zope has also been called a web application server, because it's relatively easy to write highly-integrated, highly-dynamic sites with it (and overkill to use it for purely static sites). Objects are defined in such a way that they can be represented as web pages. The publisher has a lot of default behaviors for built-in types and the objects that come with Zope. Zope product developers have the responsibility (and control) over how their objects will appear when published. ENVIRONMENT: If you want to think of it as a web application server, then basically, Zope is your operating system, and your site is your web application software. Zope also provides some specialized programming language help --- Python scripts that can be edited through the web, and two Templating Languages for designing web pages that will have dynamic content. You can think of the templating languages as being similar to PHP or ASP style programming. But Zope Zen says that the serious code should be either in Python scripts or in Python products (on the filesystem, instead of in the ZODB, like scripts). Templates are meant to be simple, simple, simple. But that's a style issue. This stuff provides the Zope operating system with a shell. And the Zope Management Interface, which is what you see when you visit the /manage page at a Zope site, is the window system or, perhaps more accurately, the file browser of that operating system. So, in fact, Zope does quite a bit. But it isn't really all that hard to understand. It's just not been well-introduced, because the people explaining it have a tendency to forget that it isn't all obvious, because it seems that way to them, now that they know it. But that's the newbie's problem in all areas of software, ISTM. HTH, Terry -- Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com ) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What are the other options against Zope?
If you're looking for a leight weight web development enviroment acting as a front end for a database take a look at http://www.cherrypy.org -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What are the other options against Zope?
On Saturday 02 July 2005 04:26 pm, phil wrote: A rather object-oriented system for managing and serving web applications and data (using object inheritance for common behavior, etc.) This makes Zope a toolkit, not an end application itself. So that would make it Apache, with a Python CGI. No. No object tree there --- except the filesystem, which is a braindead object tree, so doesn't really count. It is a *little* like a Macintosh filesystem, which has metadata stored for each file. Oh wait, Apache has a Python CGI which can access Data bases and send objects to the client. Yes, you could use that to re-write everything that Zope does for you. Why would you want to? However, many people do apparently do this all the time. Of course, Zope is by no means the only way to create a site, and may not be appropriate for everybody. But it is darned useful. A web application is you deliver am html page and the user fills in some forms, then submits the form, which is then validated and another form is delivered. Right? Cool idea, IBM had that in 1975 it was called CICS. This is true in the same sense that Python is unnecessary because all programs can be written in assembler. Or machine code for that matter. Entered by flipping switches, even -- throw away that keyboard. I have actually seen this done, BTW. Even though I'm theoretically too young. ;-) I once asked my son-in-law tech support guy what is the Windows registry, what does it do? He thought for a while and said Think of it as the soul of the machine. So I thought about it as the soul of the machine for a while, then I asked; You don't know, do you, and he said No. I did already post a serious reply, but now I'm afraid I've been trolled. :-P I was assuming you actually wanted to know what Zope was. Yes, it is a funny story, though. ;-) -- Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com ) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What are the other options against Zope?
Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
The Windows registry is a maze of twisty little passages, all
alike G
ITYM a maze of twisty little passeges,
{058C1536-2201-11D2-BFC1-00805F858323}
The registry a cryptic, bloated, system by which M$ can hide
details about anything they want... Instead of having separate .INI
files scattered about.
A registry, in general, is a decent idea. It's more robust and more
permanent than environment variables, and the centralization is better
than INI files scattered about (probably). The problem is that the
Windows Registry has passed beyond all mortal ken, probably sometime
around when they started indexing things by GUID, losing any hierarchy
based on application.
That, and the file format definitely isn't robust to bit-rot that
happened too often on FAT16/32 filesystems.
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