Re: Google Not Universal Panacea [was: Re: Where to find python c-sources]
Steve Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... Are people really too lazy to do elementary research on Google? goes a bit too far in imputing motives to the enquirer and overlooking the fact that there are some very good reasons for *not* using Google. It's a good thing you don't actually name any of those reasons, tho:-). we're talking male hormones here, since by and large women don't appear to have embraced the Python community (except perhaps individually, but that's no business of mine). Anna seems to be doing fine, though. She's currently taking a C class at college and claims the more I know C, the more I love Python - and I gather she's evangelizing (and the class is about 50/50 genderwise;-). Also, many regular readers didn't grow up speaking English (I was Yep -- I'm one example of that. Didn't stop Google from hiring me, though;-). Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Where to find python c-sources
Terry Hancock [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Friday 30 September 2005 04:37 pm, John J. Lee wrote: Tor Erik Sønvisen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thanks for the answers... And yes, I have searched google! How odd -- the most useful link (the viewcvs page for this source file) is the very first link for me when I search for socketmodule.c Does google vary in its results across the globe? Of course you meant to be snippy and sarcastic, I really was wondering if such results varied, because it seemed hard to believe somebody wouldn't do a similar search. And the idea that he might have been too lazy didn't enter my head wink but you've actually exemplified the reason why so many people don't find such a thing with Google. Like all search engines, you have to know the right keyword -- to a fair degree of precision -- in order to find what you're looking for. Oh, come off it. It seems hard to imagine that trying socketmodule.c when looking for socketmodule.c requires some expert search-fu that I'm supposed to posess. This is very unlike asking a question of a human being. *People* respond much better to general subject headings such as socket module or python sources rather than looking for something ultra-specific like a particular file name. He wasn't looking for general information. He told us he was looking for socketmodule.c, for Pete's sake! And python sources *does* takes you to the Python sources. Researchers take this training with them when they approach Google and treat it like a magic librarian -- they give it the same thing they would come to a human librarian with. You conjure up in my mind a nice picture of an be-cardiganed gentleman in an oak-panelled corner of the British Library, in his early seventies complete with pipe, dust, and technophobia. Seems an unlikely image for somebody with an email address containing the string @stud.cs. and stating their interest in reading networking code written in C wink Still, going back to researchers-with-pipes (researcher meaning collator of information rather than creator/discoverer of original ideas), I perhaps naively assume that such Google-phobic researchers must nowadays do other work for a living. Who'd want to employ a researcher who can't efficiently use search engines and other databases these days? But as I say, I could well be naive here... I recall my not-astonishment at trying to find a book in a local (but not small) public library, and finding that the librarian was unable to do so, despite their apparent enthusiasm at my request, and initial proud promises that the databases they pay for would find it even if none of the regional libraries had a copy (due in this case I suspect, and hasten to add, to the databases simply lacking the relevant records, rather than incompetence on the part of the librarian). I walked round the corner and found it on both Amazon and Google in around a few seconds each time. I had been led to believe books were something of a library speciality... In fact, rambling a little further, I can honestly say (in the certainty and enjoyment of offending any librarians reading 0.75 wink) that I've never knowingly extracted any useful information from a librarian, who in legend are supposed to have such old-style researcher-fu as you refer to. This applies even to pre-Google days, despite having spent a fair amount of time in libraries, and asking a fair range of questions over a period of years: some very specific, some quite general and wooly; some particular, some about general search strategies and techniques. sarcasm level=0Perhaps that just reflects my interests or level of competence in one way or another./sarcasm [...] Seriously, though, for anybody new to using search engines, it is a very useful rule of thumb -- search for a specific word likely to appear on the page you are looking for, and not elsewhere. [...] It's quite true that has to be learned. John -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Where to find python c-sources
On Friday 30 September 2005 04:37 pm, John J. Lee wrote: Tor Erik Sønvisen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thanks for the answers... And yes, I have searched google! How odd -- the most useful link (the viewcvs page for this source file) is the very first link for me when I search for socketmodule.c Does google vary in its results across the globe? Of course you meant to be snippy and sarcastic, but you've actually exemplified the reason why so many people don't find such a thing with Google. Like all search engines, you have to know the right keyword -- to a fair degree of precision -- in order to find what you're looking for. This is very unlike asking a question of a human being. *People* respond much better to general subject headings such as socket module or python sources rather than looking for something ultra-specific like a particular file name. Researchers take this training with them when they approach Google and treat it like a magic librarian -- they give it the same thing they would come to a human librarian with. Of course, that shows they are less adept with machines than you are, just as your reply shows you are less adept with humans. Both sides could probably learn from the encounter. ;-) Seriously, though, for anybody new to using search engines, it is a very useful rule of thumb -- search for a specific word likely to appear on the page you are looking for, and not elsewhere. This also shows where Google fails and newsgroups succeed: when you know what you want, but don't know what it's called. Often, all a poster really needs is the right keyword to use. -- Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com ) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Where to find python c-sources
On Monday 03 October 2005 12:26 pm, John J. Lee wrote: [Tor Erik S�nvisen] socketmodule.c, but I can't locate this file... Where should I look? [John, finding 'socketmodule.c' responds well to I'm Feeling Lucky] Does google vary in its results across the globe? [Michael] The search terms might be obvious to you, but it simply means your google-fu is strong, and the strong should help the weak. (or not attack them at least...) You believe that Tor is dumb enough not to think of searching for socketmodule.c when, um, searching for socketmodule.c? No, ironically, the problem is that Tor is too *smart* to search for socketmodule.c -- it requires *unlearning* the experience from searching physical libraries where subject catalogs and librarians are the search engine. They don't respond to the same type of search terms as machines do. -- Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com ) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Where to find python c-sources
[Tor Erik S�nvisen] socketmodule.c, but I can't locate this file... Where should I look? [John, finding 'socketmodule.c' responds well to I'm Feeling Lucky] Does google vary in its results across the globe? [Michael] The search terms might be obvious to you, but it simply means your google-fu is strong, and the strong should help the weak. (or not attack them at least...) You believe that Tor is dumb enough not to think of searching for socketmodule.c when, um, searching for socketmodule.c? John -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Where to find python c-sources
John J. Lee wrote: [Tor Erik S�nvisen] socketmodule.c, but I can't locate this file... Where should I look? [John, finding 'socketmodule.c' responds well to I'm Feeling Lucky] Does google vary in its results across the globe? [Michael] The search terms might be obvious to you, but it simply means your google-fu is strong, and the strong should help the weak. (or not attack them at least...) You believe that Tor is dumb enough not to think of searching for socketmodule.c when, um, searching for socketmodule.c? He said he had tried google - OK, not in the first post but early in this thread - I don't equate that with being dumb - just dumb luck :-) Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] After all Peter Hansen suggested the search terms python socketmodule.c rather than just socketmodule.c Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To you the obvious search term was socketmodule.c which to me simply means you're more aligned with Google than Tor :-) These things happen :-) Regards, Michael. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Where to find python c-sources
if u just want to browse the code online then use this: http://fisheye.cenqua.com/viewrep/python/python/dist/src *much* nicer than sourceforge cvs viewer nsz -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Where to find python c-sources
Michael wrote: John J. Lee wrote: You believe that Tor is dumb enough not to think of searching for socketmodule.c when, um, searching for socketmodule.c? He said he had tried google - OK, not in the first post but early in this thread - I don't equate that with being dumb - just dumb luck :-) Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] After all Peter Hansen suggested the search terms python socketmodule.c rather than just socketmodule.c Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To you the obvious search term was socketmodule.c which to me simply means you're more aligned with Google than Tor :-) Sorry, but this defense is less than weak. Using python socketmodule.c you actually get the right answer as the third result, while with the even-more-obvious-to-a-rookie socketmodule.c you get it as the *first* result. It would perhaps be fun to experiment to see just how hard it would be to use socketmodule.c plus anything else and *not* get the result one was looking for. ;-) (note the wink...) Clearly Tor did not try searching Google with two of the most obvious results, but I think at this point he should be considered to be soundly thrashed over the matter and we can all move on. This isn't getting any more interesting... -Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Where to find python c-sources
Peter Hansen wrote: Sorry, but this defense is less than weak. Using python socketmodule.c you actually get the right answer as the third result, while with the even-more-obvious-to-a-rookie socketmodule.c you get it as the *first* result. using just python gives you a link to the source code download page as part of the first result. /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Google Not Universal Panacea [was: Re: Where to find python c-sources]
Erik Max Francis wrote: Steve Holden wrote: While a snappish go and look it up on Google might suffice for a mouthy apprentice who's just asked their thirteenth question in the last half hour, it's (shall we say) a little on the brusque side for someone who only appears on the group last February, and has a history of asking reasonably pertinent though sometimes beginner-level questions. I told him exactly where it was. I just also pointed out that he could have trivially found out the answer on his own by using Google for fifteen seconds. It would be one thing if I (and nobody else) answered his question and just rudely pointed him to Google. But since I actually answered his question, looks to me like someone just wanted to stand on his soapbox today. I don't think The source tarball on python.org could claim to be telling him exactly where it was given that my copy of the web site has 341 MB of stuff in it. Just that same, if you are saying that your behaviour didn't really merit my response then I'd probably agree. Your post was the straw that broke the camel's back rather than an egregious example of bad manners. So I'm sorry if it looked as though the soapboxing was directed primarily at you, which it wasn't. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Google Not Universal Panacea [was: Re: Where to find python c-sources]
Steve Holden wrote: I don't think The source tarball on python.org could claim to be telling him exactly where it was given that my copy of the web site has 341 MB of stuff in it. He doesn't have to search through the whole thing, there's a link on the front page, so this 341 MB figure is meaningless. I certainly understand laziness. I don't approve of it, but I can understand it. But I really don't understand _defending_ laziness. His grasp of the English language was just fine. He could have gotten the answer to his question by using Google with less time and effort than it took him to post to Usenet, wait for a response, and then act on it. Even if he were totally lazy and selfish, he could have gotten the answer more easily by using Google for ten seconds. Language was obviously not a barrier here, since the very words he used in asking the question could have been typed into a search engine to get exactly the answer he wanted. There are plenty of questions that are complex enough, or require knowing the right terminology which might not be obvious to an interested amateur, such that a search engine won't be the most practical way to do research. This was _certainly_ not one of those cases. -- Erik Max Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alcyone.com/max/ San Jose, CA, USA 37 20 N 121 53 W AIM erikmaxfrancis No mistaking / Just reflecting what you radiate -- Anggun -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Where to find python c-sources
John J. Lee wrote: Tor Erik Sønvisen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Erik Max Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message Tor Erik S�nvisen wrote: I need to browse the socket-module source-code. I believe it's contained in the file socketmodule.c, but I can't locate this file... Where should I look? The source tarball, available on python.org. Are people really too lazy to do elementary research on Google? Thanks for the answers... And yes, I have searched google! ... Does google vary in its results across the globe? Aside from Paul Boddie's comment to the effect of yes, there is a very important thing that people forget - *no everyone is as good at using a search engine as others*. People are not simply as good at finding the same information using the same tools as others. You liken the problem to a library. If you understand how a library is laid out, you can find the information alot quicker. If however you're looking in a library for a book on how to create those odd things for computers and you've been told it involves python you're as likely to end up in the fiction section as you are zoology. If you can't figure out the right search terms you need, google can be useless. (That said when that happens to me, I tend to either use kartoo.com or ask a friend) The search terms might be obvious to you, but it simply means your google-fu is strong, and the strong should help the weak. (or not attack them at least...) Michael. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Where to find python c-sources
Erik Max Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tor Erik Sønvisen wrote: I need to browse the socket-module source-code. I believe it's contained in the file socketmodule.c, but I can't locate this file... Where should I look? The source tarball, available on python.org. Are people really too lazy to do elementary research on Google? -- Erik Max Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alcyone.com/max/ San Jose, CA, USA 37 20 N 121 53 W AIM erikmaxfrancis The people are to be taken in very small doses. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson Thanks for the answers... And yes, I have searched google! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Google Not Universal Panacea [was: Re: Where to find python c-sources]
Tor Erik Sønvisen wrote: Erik Max Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tor Erik Sønvisen wrote: I need to browse the socket-module source-code. I believe it's contained in the file socketmodule.c, but I can't locate this file... Where should I look? The source tarball, available on python.org. Are people really too lazy to do elementary research on Google? -- Erik Max Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alcyone.com/max/ San Jose, CA, USA 37 20 N 121 53 W AIM erikmaxfrancis The people are to be taken in very small doses. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson Thanks for the answers... And yes, I have searched google! As Pythonistas we can all marvel at the utility of Python, possibly best-known for its many applications at Google. However, I've noticed an increasing number of replies (quite possibly including some from me, so I'm not being holier-than-thou in this respect) of the sheesh, can't people use Google? type lately. However, Are people really too lazy to do elementary research on Google? goes a bit too far in imputing motives to the enquirer and overlooking the fact that there are some very good reasons for *not* using Google. Since Google and the Python Software Foundation have a relationship (Google are a sponsor member of the Foundation, were one of the sponsors of PyCon DC 2005 and employ some Foundation Board members) and since I am a Board member of the Foundation (there, full disclosure), I hesitate to suggest that Googling can't fulfil every individual's every needs, but the bald fact is it's true. [Thinks: if Google stock tanks today I'm in deep doo-doo here]. Technical people like to pretend there's only technology. The fact that this is demonstrably not true doesn't appear to condition their behaviour very much, and on newsgroups, a bastion of testosterone from the very early days of internetworking (due to network news' tight interlinking with the dial-up UUCP network that used mainly local calls to propagate news and mail), the position is at its worst. Note that we're talking male hormones here, since by and large women don't appear to have embraced the Python community (except perhaps individually, but that's no business of mine). While a snappish go and look it up on Google might suffice for a mouthy apprentice who's just asked their thirteenth question in the last half hour, it's (shall we say) a little on the brusque side for someone who only appears on the group last February, and has a history of asking reasonably pertinent though sometimes beginner-level questions. In the real world there are many reasons why people interact, and interactions on c.l.py reflect this diversity. Sometimes it's just (as Americans say) gathering round the water cooler: it's good to be in touch with a number of other people who have the same technical interest as you, and sometimes you get to say well done or interject your own opinion. Other people come here for a sense of affirmation (I wonder if those Python guys will treat me like a leper if I post on c.l.py?), amusement (I wonder what the quote of the week'll be on the python-url), intelligence (I wonder if the Twisted guys have produces a new version of X recently) and even identity (I'll argue about everything I can possibly find the minutest hole in so people know that I have a brain and can use it). Also, many regular readers didn't grow up speaking English (I was tempted to omit those last two words and leave it at that, but I won;'t be quite so extreme today), and so they may not phrase their questions appropriately. For all I know, there may not be that much Google content in Norwegian. In short, this group is a broad church, and those readers with brain s the size of planets should remember that they are just as much in a minority as the readers who appear on the list for the first time this week. The vast majority are here to learn and grow, and I think that's the sort of behaviour we should be encouraging. Google is *very* good at delivering information. I use google.com all the time, and I'm also a Google Earth user. However, we wouldn't be at all happy if Google just stuck a pipe onto our computers and spewed information at them three times as fast as it could be read. Bandwidth on a group like this is precious (which, I recently had to be reminded, is why it's important Not to Feed the Trolls - trolls eat bandwidth up like nobody's business, and pretty soon whole days are taken up by responses to their inanities). As time goes by I find myself more and more likely, getting to the end of a possibly sharp or vindictive response, to simply kill the post and take what pleasure I can from not having shared that particular piece of small-mindedness with the group. In the end our most valuable contributions to groups like this can be the gift of being able to walk away from a fight simply to keep the noise level down.
Re: Google Not Universal Panacea [was: Re: Where to find python c-sources]
Steve Holden wrote: While a snappish go and look it up on Google might suffice for a mouthy apprentice who's just asked their thirteenth question in the last half hour, it's (shall we say) a little on the brusque side for someone who only appears on the group last February, and has a history of asking reasonably pertinent though sometimes beginner-level questions. I told him exactly where it was. I just also pointed out that he could have trivially found out the answer on his own by using Google for fifteen seconds. It would be one thing if I (and nobody else) answered his question and just rudely pointed him to Google. But since I actually answered his question, looks to me like someone just wanted to stand on his soapbox today. -- Erik Max Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alcyone.com/max/ San Jose, CA, USA 37 20 N 121 53 W AIM erikmaxfrancis Let he who does not know what war is go to war. -- (a Spanish proverb) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Where to find python c-sources
Tor Erik Sønvisen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Erik Max Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tor Erik S�nvisen wrote: I need to browse the socket-module source-code. I believe it's contained in the file socketmodule.c, but I can't locate this file... Where should I look? The source tarball, available on python.org. Are people really too lazy to do elementary research on Google? -- Erik Max Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alcyone.com/max/ San Jose, CA, USA 37 20 N 121 53 W AIM erikmaxfrancis The people are to be taken in very small doses. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson Thanks for the answers... And yes, I have searched google! How odd -- the most useful link (the viewcvs page for this source file) is the very first link for me when I search for socketmodule.c Does google vary in its results across the globe? John -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Where to find python c-sources
John J. Lee wrote: How odd -- the most useful link (the viewcvs page for this source file) is the very first link for me when I search for socketmodule.c Does google vary in its results across the globe? Actually, yes, although in this case the top result is the same for both google.no (where I get sent if I go to google.com) and google.co.uk (where my browser's search field takes me, probably because of some locale setting or other). Paul -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Where to find python c-sources
Hi I need to browse the socket-module source-code. I believe it's contained in the file socketmodule.c, but I can't locate this file... Where should I look? regards tores -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Where to find python c-sources
Tor Erik Sønvisen wrote: I need to browse the socket-module source-code. I believe it's contained in the file socketmodule.c, but I can't locate this file... Where should I look? The source tarball, available on python.org. Are people really too lazy to do elementary research on Google? -- Erik Max Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alcyone.com/max/ San Jose, CA, USA 37 20 N 121 53 W AIM erikmaxfrancis The people are to be taken in very small doses. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Where to find python c-sources
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Tor Erik Sønvisen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi I need to browse the socket-module source-code. I believe it's contained in the file socketmodule.c, but I can't locate this file... Where should I look? I recommend you look in the Modules subdirectory of the Python source tree. Cheers, -M -- Michael J. Fromberger | Lecturer, Dept. of Computer Science http://www.dartmouth.edu/~sting/ | Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH, USA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Where to find python c-sources
On 2005-09-29, Erik Max Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tor Erik Sønvisen wrote: I need to browse the socket-module source-code. I believe it's contained in the file socketmodule.c, but I can't locate this file... Where should I look? The source tarball, available on python.org. Are people really too lazy to do elementary research on Google? Yes. -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! One FISHWICH coming at up!! visi.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Where to find python c-sources
Erik Max Francis wrote: Tor Erik Sønvisen wrote: I need to browse the socket-module source-code. I believe it's contained in the file socketmodule.c, but I can't locate this file... Where should I look? The source tarball, available on python.org. Are people really too lazy to do elementary research on Google? Don't know, have you checked Google? -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Where to find python c-sources
Tor Erik Sønvisen wrote: I need to browse the socket-module source-code. I believe it's contained in the file socketmodule.c, but I can't locate this file... Where should I look? You can browse the Python CVS tree here: http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/python/python/dist/src/ For example, the file you asked for is viewable here: http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/python/python/dist/src/Modules/socketmodule.c?rev=1.314view=auto Dave -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Where to find python c-sources
Dave Benjamin wrote: Tor Erik Sønvisen wrote: I need to browse the socket-module source-code. I believe it's contained in the file socketmodule.c, but I can't locate this file... Where should I look? You can browse the Python CVS tree here: http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/python/python/dist/src/ For example, the file you asked for is viewable here: http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/python/python/dist/src/Modules/socketmodule.c?rev=1.314view=auto And only three hits down in this Google search: http://www.google.com/search?q=python+socketmodule.c plus one additional click on view once you're there... -Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
